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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 19, 2025, 10:51 AM
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It was brought up in another thread that the biblical writers were not ignorant when it came to science, but they clearly were.
That’s not an insult to them or anyone who believes the Bible, it’s just a statement of fact because well, the earth is not flat.
I am also ignorant to many things that I have not learned about.
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Clemson Icon [25931]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 19, 2025, 11:01 AM
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That would indeed be a whopper. Who said that, and where? I read the threads, and I haven't seen that.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 19, 2025, 12:39 PM
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Maybe I misunderstood but that’s what I gathered from the conversation that got into that.
I have a good friend that I have lunch with occasionally and I joke with him about being a flat earther. He believes that because that is what the Bible says. Kudos to him for being committed.
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Clemson Icon [24169]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 19, 2025, 11:10 AM
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They didn't know much. That's why they invented religion, to give answers to what couldn't be known.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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I am satisfied that is a big part of it.
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Mar 19, 2025, 11:40 AM
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I believe the bible is a mixture of myth, metaphor, historical fact, spiritual truth, errors and contradictions, and was written and put together by both good, sincere people, some of whom were inspired by God, and some people who had other motives.
I understand why a lot of people don't share that opinion, and I am 100% fine with that.
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Clemson Icon [24169]
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Re: I am satisfied that is a big part of it.
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Mar 19, 2025, 1:23 PM
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Yeah, I am not sold there is no higher power etc etc. I am just thinking about organized religion.
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Re: I am satisfied that is a big part of it.
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Mar 19, 2025, 1:48 PM
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I'm kind of in the same boat.
Logically, I can't say there isn't a God because I don't know everything there is to know about the universe. If I did know everything about the universe, then I could definitively say, 'Yes there is', or "No, there isn't."
The next question is, "How do we know our descriptions are right?" Or more pointedly, do we even have the tools or understanding to describe it correctly? Ask Mr. Mcbeevee.
Or, it may be that everyone is right. There's nothing to say that God, if he exists, has to present himself uniformly to all. He may appear as a lotus to a Buddhist or a bearded old man to a Jew.
Who's going to step up and say "God can do this, but he can't do that?"
What I find most interesting is HOW people describe their experiences, and WHY they describe them in one way, but not another. There is a trail, and a history, to almost everything we think...both personally, and culturally.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: I am satisfied that is a big part of it.
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Mar 20, 2025, 10:55 AM
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I can't remember where I saw this but it was that all religions have this one central theme...
"Go forth and don't be a d1ck"
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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Hmmmmmm
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Mar 20, 2025, 11:18 AM
[ in reply to Re: I am satisfied that is a big part of it. ] |
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Or, it may be that everyone is right. There's nothing to say that God, if he exists, has to present himself uniformly to all. He may appear as a lotus to a Buddhist or a bearded old man to a Jew.
That may be it. I tend to believe it is. We, created in God's image, are creators also. We create much of what we see in the afterlife, or in the spiritual realm. Our souls, which are literally part of or extensions of God, are here to learn, evolve, experience, and help in this physical dimension, by choice. We/God have included pain and suffering and evil as a part of that experience, by choice. God isn't judging, but just is, as all of this exists and plays out according to plan.
I know that sounds absolutely crazy wacko to those raised in the Christian tradition, but to me it makes a lot more sense that a separate God living in the sky who gives us one lifetime on earth to get it right, and judges us and either sends us to the good place with him, or the bad place apart from him, for eternity. To me, that is far wackier and crazier.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: Hmmmmmm
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Mar 20, 2025, 1:10 PM
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>We...are creators also.
This is a profound point. We cannot remove ourselves from the equation. If I'm wearing rose-colored glasses, everything I see will be rose tinted. And I can't take the glasses off - they are ME. The most I can do is recognize I'm wearing rose-colored glasses.
So whatever God is or may be, my interpretation of him will be colored by me. I can't remove myself from the equation. That's what I get out of "We are creators also." We truly do create our own reality in that sense.
I keep going back to the Andy Griffith episode of the phone lineman, but it's just so on-point. Opie sees his world in his way, in his terms; fairies and magical men. He has no idea what a telephone lineman even is or does. It is an absolutely foreign concept to who he is at that point. He can only understand his experience in his very limited way. That's us, and God, imo.
And that's where I'm headed with "All religions are right." Each person, all over the world, is understanding the unknowable in his own way, from his culture and his personal experience. It's a two-way street in understanding anything. The understand-er is just as important as the understand-ee.
<...and judges us
This, in the form of 'eternal' judgement, is a unique element of the Abrahamic and Egyptian religions.
The Mesopotamian religions had a limited form of earthly judgement as you went about your life, but in effect, everyone went to hell (the underworld) in death. This underworld was not a penalty for a bad life, it just was. Humans served gods, and when you died, good or bad, that's where humans ended up. So the underworld was permanent, but there was no jdugement that led you there.
In eastern religions judgement is more in the line of karma, which is more 'cause and effect.' If I push on one end of a see-saw the other end goes up. That's not judgement, it's just 'this leads to that.' And nothing's permanent, including judgement or karma. It's another very different way of seeing existence. The goal of eastern religions isn't to achieve salvation for sin or avoid punishment, it's to grow and gain greater understanding of the universe; to reach Nirvana, or the state of release from pain and suffering and into peace and harmony with the universe. Sort of "self-improvement' vs. obedience.
That might make a great future post...Judgement in various religions.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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And the whole point of that was not that ancient man was dumb
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Mar 19, 2025, 11:35 AM
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or unable to think at a high level and solve problems, or in this case, ponder deep philosophical or spiritual questions. No, that wasn't it at all. The point was that the world in which we live, including available scientific knowledge and understanding, influences how and what we think about almost everything. The less scientific knowledge people have, the more likely they are to come up with incorrect explanations for things they don't understand - just like the flat earth, or maybe that thunder and lightning were the gods fighting or unleashing anger, or plagues were punishments from god. We still don't have all of the answers in 2025, but we have a much, much better understanding of how the universe works than the people who wrote Genesis had, and that difference would quite naturally result in different, perhaps irreconcilable concepts of God, and understandings of the bible.
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Paw Warrior [4635]
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The Earth was proven to be round 200yrs before Christ.
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Mar 19, 2025, 2:46 PM
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The ancient Greeks were able to use the shadows cast by obelisks to determine not only that the world is round, but also what its total circumference is. And they were insanely accurate given the tools at their disposal.
So no, "ancient man" was not dumb.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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When most of the Old Testement was written, people thought the earth was
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Mar 19, 2025, 8:23 PM
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flat. And again, I never, ever said or implied they were dumb. Anybody who thinks I did may be though.
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Paw Warrior [4635]
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Yeah, sorry -- I like where you're coming from, and that's a fair point.
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Mar 20, 2025, 5:38 PM
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I was actually agreeing with you that they weren't dumb.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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Sorry - my bad!***
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Mar 20, 2025, 7:15 PM
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: And the whole point of that was not that ancient man was dumb
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Mar 19, 2025, 8:03 PM
[ in reply to And the whole point of that was not that ancient man was dumb ] |
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I'm not even sure though that Genesis was intended do be a literal historical account of the beginning of time.
A lot of it comes from other cultures. The story of Cain and Abel for instance has parallels that go back thousands of years earlier.
Nine out of ten people do not realize that. To me it is common sense when you do that these were not literal events but simply myths passed down over time.
That seems to be the most logical explanation.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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Agreed.***
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Mar 19, 2025, 8:26 PM
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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I like the way these guys put it . . .
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Mar 19, 2025, 11:28 PM
[ in reply to And the whole point of that was not that ancient man was dumb ] |
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Modern Christian scholars generally agree that the Bible should not be read as a scientific textbook. Instead, they emphasize that Scripture uses phenomenological language – describing things as they appear to human observers – and employs literary devices such as metaphor and poetic imagery to convey spiritual truths (Holding & Rowbotham, 2015; Jarmy, 2021).
(bold = mine)
https://christianpure.com/learn/is-the-earth-flat-according-to-the-bible-examining-biblical-texts/
For me, it's not so much that the bible says the earth is flat (or it doesn't), but that people who lived at the time Genesis was written had very limited scientific knowledge compared to today, and that undoubtedly helped shape how they thought about everything, including God and the universe and it's creation. It helped shape how they explained things in the absence of knowledge.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: Good for you. You have found a place where you are comfortable
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Mar 21, 2025, 9:49 PM
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That was a pretty good podcast.
I didn't agree with all of their assumptions or their conclusions, but I did agree with their premise that the historical Jesus is often either misunderstood or misinterpreted. I thought they gave some pretty good evidence to that end, but as I said, I'm not sure that I agree fully with where they ended up.
They acknowledged they have their own philosophy, and thus were using their evidence to support that viewpoint, which is fine, and I thought they did a good job of it. Some of their evidence was pretty compelling, and they were pretty funny in presenting it as well. I laughed a handful of times at how rational their conclusions seemed when contrasted against the usual orthodoxy. So they were good points well delivered.
Again, didn't agree with it all, but felt they made a strong case that "something's not quite right" and would definitely listen to more of their ideas. Jesus is central to their understanding of God, though it's not the typical understanding of Jesus. Because of that, they necessarily leaned on the Bible for their interpretation, though they did reference other world religions. I'd be very interested to see how they incorporate those religions into their belief system. Thanks for posting!
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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I don't necessarily agree with every single point either, but overall he makes
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Mar 21, 2025, 10:23 PM
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A good, reasonable argument. I can accept the idea that the traditional biblical story of Jesus as presented by mainstream Chistianity may be inaccurate or incomplete.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: Good for you. You have found a place where you are comfortable
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Mar 24, 2025, 3:50 PM
[ in reply to Good for you. You have found a place where you are comfortable ] |
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“Almost everything Jesus taught in the red letters is absolutely not taught or emphasized in Christianity today”
Wait so I’m not the only one saying this?
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: Good for you. You have found a place where you are comfortable
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Mar 24, 2025, 4:54 PM
[ in reply to Good for you. You have found a place where you are comfortable ] |
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He says he never studied Paul until that experience as a pastor on the front row of an evangelical church. Wow. How in the world did he get the job?
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 19, 2025, 1:22 PM
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I think belief that the world was flat was common in the Middle East from the time of the Babylonians and before. Here's one of their maps, from about 600 BCE, with Babylon as the center of the known world, naturally. All around them is a sea, with unknown lands beyond, but no indication at all that the world might be spherical.
The Imago Mundi
Their view may have influenced the early Jews, who added a dome (firmament) over top, like a Christmas globe.
By the time of Greek influence (300ish BCE forward with Alexander), it was probably pretty well known among the educated that the world was round. Pythagoras and others had worked it out as early as 500 BCE, using the earth's shadow on the moon as evidence, as well as with ships and sundials in different locations.
The Bible never says the earth is flat, though some of its descriptions " the ends of the earth," "4 corners of the earth" leans toward some maybe believing, or having believed that, in the past.
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Clemson Icon [25931]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 19, 2025, 2:38 PM
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"The Bible never says the earth is flat ...". Gasp! Somebody is going ask you to turn in your Jr Skeptic's Decoder Ring.
For a document that does not intend to offer scientific explanations, Genesis describes an amazingly insightful Big Bang process for the creation of time, space and matter, then becoming what we see today. It even recognizes that the three necessarily came into existence together. The most complex modern attempts to show that time can exist on it's own dont get there.
Today, philosophy does not improve upon, or even introduce anything different from, the themes, questions and conclusions found in the OT. They are successfully defended today. Not bad for 'ignorant iron age' (or is it bronze age; I forget the talking point) nomads.
Conversely, we have an OP that is a completely false statement. It has nevertheless generated a long thread with long replies. Those replies affirming the false statement are exclusively from skeptics (me being the exception, who replied to counter the falsehood). There is a truism, or maybe a joke, in there somewhere.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 19, 2025, 3:13 PM
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>Today, philosophy does not improve upon, or even introduce anything different from, the themes, questions and conclusions found in the OT.
I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I do think that the ancients showed the same reasoning power we have today, albeit with worse tools.
They had a remarkable ability to explain the world they experienced around them in terms they understood. Not all of their explanations have held up over time, but the process of using what they had available was pretty good. As always, new evidence leads to new conclusions.
They realized that life begins in water with plants. Then come fish, etc. That's the whole basis of the Babylonian creation story.
Democritus was on to the idea of the atom in 400 BCE, even if he didn't have the same details as we have with our tools.
Paul observed it in Acts 17:21
"All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas."
Smart, curious guys trying to figure it all out. Just like us!
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Clemson Icon [25931]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 19, 2025, 3:30 PM
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I have no desire to go to the Holy Land. Somebody is going to ask me to send back my Cadet Evangelist's Decoder Ring.
But I would love to go to Greece, and one of several reasons is that I want to go stand on the spot where Paul walked into the weekly meeting of all the cool people and said:
"Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: 'to an unknown god'. What you worship in ignorance, Him I have come to proclaim to you."
What an opening line. If I ever make it, I am going to stand there and say that. And some local guy will think, "I wish they'd stop that." As you know, Luke wrote that account, and I have wondered about their conversation over dinner:
"Man, warn me next time. Was all I could do to not laugh out loud."
Paul shrugs. "Would have been okay. They way too serious.."
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CU Medallion [20157]
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Had opportunity to visit Jerusalem
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Mar 19, 2025, 5:19 PM
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Toured the Old City... stood on the mount where Jesus spoke to thousands. Dipped into the Sea of Galilee. Crossed over the Jordan River. Picked up a few "smooth" stones from Capernaum and brought home with me along with a bottle of water from the Jordan River. Stood in front of the Wailing wall and walked those ancient streets. Garden of Gethsemane. Looked at Bethlehem from a distance... too dangerous for Americans to enter at that time.
I think the most amazing thing I saw was when our tour bus stopped for gas and a break - on our way the Egypt - there was this place in the middle of the desert - I mean like No Where - and walked in to find a building covered in Elvis Pressly memorabilia. Not an empty spot on the wall or countertops. None for sale.
Anyway, it was amazing to me. Not Elvis... Jerusalem.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: Had opportunity to visit Jerusalem
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Mar 19, 2025, 8:27 PM
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I thought it was just fantastic, too. I'd go back tomorrow if given the chance. At the time, I was an atheist, and I was still just awed at the whole place. So much history. Loved every minute of it.
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Clemson Icon [25931]
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Re: Had opportunity to visit Jerusalem
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Mar 20, 2025, 12:29 AM
[ in reply to Had opportunity to visit Jerusalem ] |
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I'm sure that was fun. Yes, would be interesting to see those places. I'm sure you did this, but I think it would be interesting to see where the original dimensions (the City of David) were, and imagine what it looked like then. Very small, as I understand it. "Let's see, if David's place was maybe about here, then Bathsheba's had to have been ...". And yes, to see Capernaum and Jesus's early environment would be interesting.
As close as I have gotten to any of that was about a year spent in Albania, during which we took a visit to the seaport of Durres. Local legend is that Titus died in Durres, which is sort of supported by Paul's comment that he went to Albania ("Illyricum" in Romans 15:19). In one little village on the way we stood on a stone Roman road, which was most likely the route Paul would have taken. So, I'm like, "Hmm, maybe Paul walked right here. Hey, look guys, a pizza place three doors down, who's in?" Short attention span, maybe. That was just above Athens, and I didnt drive down. Stupid.
A guy decides to honor the King, and ends up with Elvis posters. An evangelist should always travel with a translator.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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I've never had the opportunity myself, but I can't imagine walking in those
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Mar 20, 2025, 11:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: Had opportunity to visit Jerusalem ] |
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footsteps and breathing that air without being deeply moved.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: I've never had the opportunity myself, but I can't imagine walking in those
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Mar 20, 2025, 12:20 PM
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It is very moving. God or no, the understanding these guys had of their existence changed the world. We live with their ideas and interpretations to this very day.
And it is a very, very harsh environment. The first thing you learn about the Land of Milk and Honey is that there is nothing green about either milk, or honey. You are in a rocky, craggy, desert, and even today's conveniences struggle to overcome the brutality of it.
We toured along the Dead Sea in an SUV, and found that even its V8 powered air conditioning couldn't overcome the heat. So we rolled the windows down for the warm, dry breeze to 'cool' off at 50 mph. I can't imagine riding camels, or anything else, in mid-day, back then.
Back in Jerusalem is the Garden of Gethsemane, which is basically a dirt and gravel bed with olive trees in it. I walked around it a bit, thinking of lusher, greener gardens of my grandparents in the south, and said to our guide, "It's not much of a garden is it?" He said "In the desert, if it grows, it's a garden."
It's growing, so it's a garden.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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"They had a remarkable ability to explain the world they experienced around them
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Mar 19, 2025, 9:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat ] |
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in terms they understood."
Remarkable indeed. And that's exactly what I believe they did. In terms they understood.
"Smart, curious guys trying to figure it all out. Just like us!"
Yep. Just like us.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 19, 2025, 7:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat ] |
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You're the one who's a skeptic of anything that doesn't line up with his preconceived beliefs. You didn't come to them on your on, you were told what to believe and you followed suit. Everything is viewed through that lens.
The bible incorrectly describes the earth and universe whether it says it's flat, dome, whatever, IT IS WRONG.
That's when you go...well it must mean something else, or I haven't studied enough, or even worse you move the goalposts of inerrancy, and treat people who are simply acknowledging reality like they are doing something wrong and being deceiving.
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Top TigerNet [30598]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 20, 2025, 7:15 AM
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Your so focused on 'physical reality' that your totally blind to 'spiritual truth'.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: The Bible literally describes the earth as flat
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Mar 20, 2025, 8:47 AM
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What is spiritual truth?
Is it mutually exclusive from physical reality?
Are the two at odds with each other?
If I can’t accept physical reality how do I arrive at spiritual truth?
We know nothing about the spiritual world or if it even exists.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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There is a difference between faith and knowledge.
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Mar 20, 2025, 10:53 AM
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Without getting into an endless philosophical discussion about the nature of reality itself, pointing out that anything we call knowledge requires some faith on some level, does not change that. When someone says they know God exists, they don't know that in the same way that they know 2+2=4, or that they know a rock is hard and a feather is soft, or that smoking cigarettes causes cancer, or that poop stinks, or that the earth revolves around the sun, etc etc.. People who play that game are simply not being honest.
Therefore, I agree 100% when you say "We know nothing about the spiritual world or if it even exists." It is a belief we have based on faith in things we may feel and therefore experience in a very real way, but can't really know. We think, analyze, and speculate, and form an explanation, which is a subjective opinion. Then we claim to know. I like to say, "I know it in my heart" or "I feel it in my bones" but it isn't knowable like the things mentioned above. Some say that we have the bible which makes it crystal clear. I, and many Nobel Laureates, and more importantly, TNET Thinkers disagree.
That was me agreeing with your point and trying unsuccessfully not to be too philosophical or stray while making a simple point. Maybe I should have written something for the bible.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: There is a difference between faith and knowledge.
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Mar 20, 2025, 11:02 AM
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"We think, analyze, and speculate, and form an explanation, which is a subjective opinion. Then we claim to know. I like to say, "I know it in my heart" or "I feel it in my bones" but it isn't knowable like the things mentioned above. Some say that we have the bible which makes it crystal clear."
This is spot on and I hate to sound like I'm always throwing off on christianity but it's the only religion that I know and interact with it's followers on a daily basis.
I cringe when I hear someone claim with authority that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and that the bible is god's word because when you dig in and ask for proof you're right the answer always comes down to a feeling, not any actual evidence.
If you want to go by committed faith of it's followers people should look at Islam. They believe so strongly that they are willing to fly planes into building and blow theirselves into pieces in the name of their god.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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Agree again, but I always feel the need to qualify and clarify what I'm saying,
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Mar 20, 2025, 11:25 AM
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and your reply reminds me. I (and I'm sure you as well) believe that Christianity is a perfectly legitimate belief system, and I understand why people embrace it. Millions of good, intelligent people do (including my parents, grandparents, and many other people whom I love and respect). So, I do not mean to bash them, and I embrace and accept them as fellow travellers trying to make sense of it all, but I very respectfully disagree with them.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: Agree again, but I always feel the need to qualify and clarify what I'm saying,
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Mar 20, 2025, 5:27 PM
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You're right and in fact believe it or not I embrace christianity myself.
CUintulsa® will say I'm lying but 9 out of 10 sunday mornings you will find me in a Baptist church pew.
And I think the majority of christians DO NOT beat people over the head with their bible. Most try to love their neighbor and judge theirselves first, others last.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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I think it's wonderful that you embrace Christianity.
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Mar 21, 2025, 10:03 AM
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I totally understand and respect that. That may be the right path for you, and many others. Like I've said, 95% of my friends and family are bible-believing Christians. I also respect the fact that you don't just accept what you are told without thinking and questioning when something doesn't sound right. I think we all should do that. Many people never do, and that's fine too; that's just where they are on their journey. Many, like CU, do, and think about it very seriously and in great depth, and arrive at different understandings and conclusions.
While I love the discussion and debate, and I do think there is an ultimate truth, I don't think any of the above makes any of us right, wrong, ignorant, stupid, or crazy. I think it's all perfectly natural and I'm fine with it. I'm perfectly fine with people embracing Christianity in any of it's forms.
Here's what I'm not fine with:
If you tell me you are a Christian, fantastic! I fully support you and your right to hold those beliefs. I have no interest in changing your mind. Then if you choose to discuss those beliefs with me, including why you believe what you believe, and refuse to answer simple, straightforward questions, or deflect and redirect, then act like I'm being an a$$ ... that's when I go "Hmmmmmmm" something's not right here. Or if you're just here to preach and not engage with an open mind.
My beliefs are just that - my beliefs. Not necessarily indisputable facts or truths. I welcome opposing views and any resulting discussion, as long as it's sincere and respectfully tolerant of different views and conclusions.
Thanks to you BD, for understanding.
Message was edited by: Smiling Tiger®
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: I think it's wonderful that you embrace Christianity.
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Mar 21, 2025, 3:30 PM
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Allow me to clarify. When I say I embrace christianity I mean I embrace the fellowship, the safe environment for my kids to participate in fun activities, and the message of love.
However like we've discussed a lot on this board, I think the message of Jesus and application of it is pushed to the side in favor of sadly what seem to resemble pharisaical traditions which ironically Jesus himself spoke out against so much.
The way the bible is idolized for example. I wonder what Jesus would think of this. He never said "the bible is a sword", that came much later.
Church attendance is another. I go, but I surely don't judge others who don't come as much. Thats a big thing in churches. I actually heard a pastor say one night on sunday night that this was the real church. That was his measure of a christian I guess...whether or not they come back on sunday night.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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I understand, and I embrace many aspects of Christianity as well. I think
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Mar 21, 2025, 10:38 PM
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the Bible is filled with spiritual truth and wisdom. I haven't been to church in years, but even though I no longer believe all of it's teachings, I definitely feel closer and more connected to God when I go. I don't go mainly because I'm lazy.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101840]
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You don't believe the Bible, "What does it matter!"
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Mar 24, 2025, 6:05 AM
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For those who do I refer you to Psalms 19:
"(To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."
The inclusion of the word 'circuit,' shows that man of David's day saw the same Sun every day rather than some new Sun passing over them.
Do you suppose, therefore, that they believed the Sun chose a 'circuit,' as a rectangle or some path other than a circle? Maybe so, maybe not: no one can say with confidence.
FYI: The Bible isn't a science book. Men then spoke their views much as we do today. Check today's weather report and you will find the time of 'Sunrise,' and 'Sunset.' Do you not think that suggest a Sun that goes up as in 'rise,' and goes down as in 'sets?'
In a thousand years if the only think man saw of our culture were one simple daily weather report with nothing more than time, temperatures and predictions of 'Sunrise,' and 'Sunset,' they might, as the OP, accuse us of thinking the Sun's 'circuit,' was a rectangle.
They would do so out of ignorance and pride that their science, their god, is so far advanced.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: You don't believe the Bible, "What does it matter!"
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Mar 24, 2025, 8:29 AM
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"FYI: The Bible isn't a science book. "
Ok you and a couple others have made that point. How then do you authenticate it as the perfect word of god?
If we can't trust that everything it says is true, which you seem to be conceding that it is incorrect on science, how can we know that it is the word of god? What makes it the word of god?
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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If you are suggesting that their relative lack of knowledge, scientific or
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Mar 24, 2025, 12:39 PM
[ in reply to You don't believe the Bible, "What does it matter!" ] |
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otherwise, did not play a role in the way they perceived God, regardless of how others in the future may perceive our current knowledge, I don't agree.
I'm pretty sure that comparative lack of scientific knowledge influenced many of their ideas and beliefs, including their beliefs about God.
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CU Medallion [20157]
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How does science shape your opinion God since science is so much more
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Mar 25, 2025, 7:21 AM
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Advanced in today's world? As you have stated it must have shaped the opinions of those from "back in the day", not being scientifically advanced. How then, do you think, science impacts opinions about God in today's world?
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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When I get the flu, I understand that I have caught a contagious virus. Many
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Mar 25, 2025, 6:19 PM
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ancient people believed sickness was a punishment from God. Because they had no clue as to germs or viruses, it helped shape their view of a God who rewards or punishes based on whether or not he was pleased with our behavior. Mostly because of science, I don't believe that. I just happened to catch a virus. That knowledge causes me to think differently about God's role.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: When I get the flu, I understand that I have caught a contagious virus. Many
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Mar 26, 2025, 11:07 AM
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People still do that today. You hear it all the time..."god has a plan".
I can understand people feeling the need to move that weight and burden to someone else, but is it really logical to think that there is one being out there that is in control and over every situation in everyone's life?
To me this is just a strange concept if you step back and think about it.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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I tend to believe that everthing ultimately emanates from a single source
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Mar 27, 2025, 12:29 PM
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which I call God. Exactly how that all happens is pretty much speculation, but I think we are all extensions or fractals of God, and have chosen this existence with all of it's limitations for a reason. We create and design it so that we experience certain things, having to make choices in a physical dimension without access to our full spiritual knowledge. My experience while here, including scientific knowledge, influences how and what I think about God while here.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: I tend to believe that everthing ultimately emanates from a single source
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Mar 27, 2025, 1:28 PM
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Where does this idea of a "source" come from? What makes you believe that?
If you look at just the physical universe, which is all we have to go on, there doesn't seem to be anything that points to another world separate from this one such as a spiritual world.
This article laughably says the best evidence is the bible...
https://www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-realm.html
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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It's a debate that has gone on for a long long time, so we won't settle it here,
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Mar 27, 2025, 3:07 PM
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but I simply think it's more likely that we came from something, and that something is further evidenced by what appears to be a kind of order present in the universe. I understand that some people don't agree with that at all, and that's cool. I sense what I call a spiritual existence, I feel it in my gut. That's it. I can't prove it, and don't feel the need to.
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Dynasty Maker [3496]
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Re: It's a debate that has gone on for a long long time, so we won't settle it here,
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Mar 27, 2025, 9:35 PM
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"I simply think it's more likely that we came from something"
I can agree with that however, I remember a girl in a youth group I was a leader in one time asking a question that nobody could answer.
It was simply "what is god?"
That's a great question because I think religions throughout history have always described "Him" as some type of personal being like us...
But what if what's out there is nothing like we imagine? What if we are some type of simulation by some teenage kid in another universe?
What if life was planted here by some type of alien civilization?
What if there have been other inhabited worlds that have been destoryed?
The question for what could be out there or what type of worlds exist outside of ours are endless and could literally be anything.
There is simply no proof for what it is, or if there is anything at all.
It really boggles the mind if you think about it.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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I believe most of us are just doing the best we can, trying to make sense
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Mar 27, 2025, 10:54 PM
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of it all while we live our lives. There is so much we just don't, and probably can't possibly know, much less understand. I don't rule out the possibility of supernatural happenings and experiences where certain spiritual truths are revealed, but aside from that we are each left to rely on some fluctuating combination of knowledge, feelings, experience and imagination to think about and form ideas and opinions about spiritual things.
Spirituality, heaven, eternity, quantumn physics, the universe, multiple universes, and all of the stuff you mention, it is indeed mind boggling.
In the mean time, I'm going to pray and meditate and learn, keep an open mind, love God and be thankful, and love all people and all of creation as best as I can.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: It's a debate that has gone on for a long long time, so we won't settle it here,
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Mar 27, 2025, 10:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: It's a debate that has gone on for a long long time, so we won't settle it here, ] |
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Trying to define God is an interesting challenge. Because as always, one can only use the tools that are available. And they're not many. He literally could be anything, or nothing.
And so a part of that challenge is sorting out "Is what I am feeling, or sensing, by whatever metric, me, or something else? Maybe it's God, maybe it's something else altogether. How can I know?
We have a penchant for using hyperbole like "eternal" or "all-this" or "all-that", but really, we just have no clue as to the extremes we are flippantly speaking of.
Credit to all those ancient for giving it a shot, though. For trying to explain both the natural world and human emotions and experiences, in the best way they knew how.
But could a people who thought of the world as this:
Even comprehended this?
If they had would they have said, "There's a guy in the bottom right corner of that Webb Telescope picture, on an orbiting rock in the center of that galaxy you can't even see at this resolution. And there's no other life in that picture. He's the guy, and God gets involved in his daily life. And the rest of the universe is just filler."
That's about like saying "There's that one grain of sand on the beach, and people live on that grain, and that's the only one."
We're just not equipped to handle the scale, imo. As a great physicist once said, "Not only is the universe stranger than you do imagine, it's stranger than you CAN imagine.
I've been watching that Tom Hanks America's series. And in the latest episode were salmon. Who go back to the exact stream they were born in. Why? And how do they possibly know? The water changes all the time. The earth's magnetic field changes all the time. What are they possibly keying on for navigation? There are some real, real, mysteries in this world. The question is, what is behind it, if anything?
Is even my very definition of 'intelligence' wholly dependent on me? I can only see existence in my own way, with my little rose-colored glasses, with my little brain. Does that even get me anywhere close to what all is out there, or what it all might mean?
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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I admit, I want there to be a loving creator God, and I do believe there is one.
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Mar 27, 2025, 11:26 PM
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I also admit that I can't possibly know. I have accepted that "problem", that uncertainty. In my mind, anything else would be dishonest. Like I have said, a creator or cause makes sense to me, and just feels right in my heart and in my bones. That's my faith. I'm curious, but I don't need to prove it.
Does that even get me anywhere close to what all is out there, or what it all might mean?
I don't think it possibly can. It's my belief that is by design, and if there is a loving creator, we know all we need to know and have all we need to accomplish what we are here to do.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: I admit, I want there to be a loving creator God, and I do believe there is one.
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Mar 28, 2025, 12:56 PM
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>I have accepted that "problem", that uncertainty.
That is a hard, hard thing to do, and kind of depressing, for me. I actually don't like being an agnostic, but I can't get my mind-frame out of it. Not only do I realize I've got limited tools for understanding, I can't even trust that my tools work, lol. I'm like a carpenter wondering if my square is really square, or if my bubble is actually level, of if my stud-finder is truly calibrated correctly. Sure I've got some tools, but do they even work?
But it's simply who I am right now, whether I like it or not. And no one can really fool themselves regarding what they think.
I was much happier as an atheist. And in some ways, as a Christian, too. There's a certain psychological comfort to "knowing" something. Whether it's knowing that there is a God, or knowing that there isn't. But facing and acknowledging the unknown, and one's own limitations, in any arena, is humbling and scary. Unknown is not comfortable. Some folks might be able to tune it out or ignore it, but I have to keep looking around the blind corner, or opening that closed door to see what's behind. Different things drive different people, and curiosity drives me.
But, we each experience the universe in our own way, and you can't discount someone else's views or how they experience the universe. You can only ask them to share it, in the hope that it might give you greater insight, too.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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Spot on. It's taken a while, but I'm probably as happy as I've ever been when it
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Mar 28, 2025, 5:26 PM
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comes to my spiritual life and beliefs. Like I say, I "know" in my heart and feel it in my bones, and that's the best I can do. I am even more certain that there is much more that I don't and can't possibly know in this life. I don't believe a rational, loving God would create me just to have me suffer for eternity in a fire, so I'm doing the best I can and hanging on for the ride.
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Orange Immortal [64406]
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Oh, one more thing! (remember Columbo?)
Mar 28, 2025, 7:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: I admit, I want there to be a loving creator God, and I do believe there is one. ] |
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It is/was hard to accept that I can't or don't know all of the answers to my questions with absolute certainty. I don't like it either. But that's the best we can do, and I think we're better off accepting and dealing with that reality, instead of lying to ourselves and trying to convince ourselves that WE KNOW.
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