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The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 10:06 AM
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It is silly to me that some people seem to believe that there is a way for league execs to get better deals when half empty stadiums are watching teams bumble themselves to 4 loss seasons year in and year out.
The ACC had like a decade of sucking out loud in football. Miami fell apart. FSU was mediocre/bad for a while. Virginia Tech has been a headcase. Louisville dropped off. So... much... weakness. And weak atmosphere.
The ACC just has not had compelling football outside of FSU (sometimes) and Clemson. Even if other leagues are "overrated" from time to time they have more compelling atmosphere and fan support. (Like Clemson and FSU)
More people want to watch their games.
Had Miami, FSU, Virginia Tech, NC State, Georgia Tech, UNC, Boston College, etc etc etc had a pulse most of the time we wouldn't be in this situation.
Clemson has done its job regarding fan support and performance on the field over the last decade plus. And 90% of the conference hasn't. FSU gets a pass for elevating (and carrying) he conference for so long in the 90's/early 2000s. B
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Freshman [-67]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 10:12 AM
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Agree. 100%. Football exploded and the ACC became mediocre fast. Only Clemson has kept up its end of the bargain.
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All-TigerNet [11443]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
May 10, 2024, 10:20 AM
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That is why the ACC needs to pay Clemson $70 million in 2025 increasing annually to $100 million in 2030.
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110%er [8637]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 10:22 AM
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People do not turn on their tv for atmosphere or fan support. The ACC has not fallen apart but you are right that it will never be the SEC as far as number of teams that are perceived to be "top teams". I know there is a group that think the sky has fallen and Clemson cannot compete because of lack of money. Look at our facilities, read Coach Brownell's comments from yesterday and you will see that we not only compete but have facilities that are on par with any school.
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CU Guru [1055]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 11:58 AM
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Atmosphere is one indicator of interest. That's the key. There just isn't as much interest in ACC football, in comparison to other conferences. That's why the ACC doesn't get paid as much as other conferences.
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Legend [19240]
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Legend [16430]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
May 11, 2024, 11:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring. ] |
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Networks clearly disagree with you. They are selling a rectangle of sound and imagery for 3 and a half hours and paying dearly for what's on it. Empty or lifeless stadiums don't turn the meter, no matter how good a game may be going on there. Even the worst SEC teams pack the house and create great TV imagery - as do most B1G programs. It's in their fans' DNA. The casual fan at home stays tuned in far more often to a televised environment with a pulse versus one without.
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110%er [6866]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 10:25 AM
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The mentality of the institutions have changed. I'm not saying it's good or bad but having a competitive sports program will bring in aggressive personalities with a will to succeed. I agree with Clemson and FSU. If you don't want that kind of school fine but don't live off the profits I generate from a mindset you're running from.
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Walk-On [112]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 10:25 AM
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Small attendance is an inherent problem with having small private schools as members. The ACC has three member schools with less than 10k undergrad (Big12 has 0, SEC has 1, B10 has 1).
Bigger problem in my opinion is the flow of ACC games -- the officials are horribly slow to review and enforce penalties -- any casual fan is going to flip the channel. Give it a try, watch/compare game flows of two games - 1 btwn two ACC schools you don't care about and the other btwn two SEC schools you don't care about. The presentation/flow of the SEC game is far superior (fwiw the SEC has the highest paid refs)
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Scout Team [198]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 10:59 AM
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Attendance is an accurate reflection of interest in the game. Low attendance is because people don't care. Similarly, high attendance shows people care about seeing the game. People's interest in the game drives the TV numbers as well. So it is absolutely correct to correlate attendance to TV marketability.
Interest in ACC most games pales in comparison to those in the SEC and B1G. So the TV dollars have followed.
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Walk-On [112]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 11:03 AM
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This is where the rubber meets the road. It also shows how shhty the ACC leadership is -- they should have anticipated the current situation several years ago and found ways to creatively incentivize schools to secure more revenue (basically get paid more from the conference for drawing more eyeballs to TVs). Instead they dragged their feet and came up with some minimal offerings at the 11th hour to keep the wagon pullers happy. Smh
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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Each institution fielded crappy teams. Each institution didn't take it seriously
May 10, 2024, 11:50 AM
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The source of the problem is the behavior and performance of each institution.... the same ones who signed the CONTRACT that we are now acting like has been imposed on us by someone other than OURSELVES.
Everything the league office did since 2004 would have been amazing IF THE INSTITUTIONS FIELDED BETTER TEAMS.
The league brought the best programs in. Miami, Virginia Tech, Florida State.... when brought in were tier 1 elite. And then, when it was up to those institutions to keep it up.... they crapped the bed in the mid-2000s. And Clemson didn't wake up until half a decade later either.
We had a 9-6 Wake Forest over Georgia Tech ACC championship game in 2006.
Here was the stadium for the 2007 ACC championship.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Cointoss.JPG
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CU Guru [1055]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
May 10, 2024, 12:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring. ] |
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There isn't really anything a conference can do to make schools improve their programs. Every conference has bottom feeders like Vanderbilt or Indiana.
The problem is, the ACC is made up of a lot of relatively smaller schools. They have smaller built-in fan bases, and fewer resources.
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All-TigerNet [10919]
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CU Guru [1055]
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Re: I don't think Wake would've been 9-6...more like 9-3.***
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May 11, 2024, 8:51 PM
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I think 9-6 was the score of the game.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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Correct. It was a 9-6 game.***
May 15, 2024, 12:14 PM
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All-TigerNet [14668]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 11:10 AM
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Yessir, the idiots that wanted this conference to stay basketball first has gotten their rewards.
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110%er [6417]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
May 10, 2024, 11:57 AM
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#### it's not even the best basketball conference anymore.....
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1st Rounder [643]
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Lack of opposing team fan support heavily contributes to boring football
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May 10, 2024, 11:15 AM
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You're 100% correct about base fan support for ACC teams being poor to non existent.
I used to make the Tailgating for Tigers videos, and when we played any ACC team other than FSU it was almost impossible to find enough fans from the other team to interview and the ones I did really didn't seem to care and 9/10 were there to take in Death Valley fully expecting to lose with no fight in them.
SEC football is overrated and hyped on the field but one thing that is not is their fan support for the team which is what adds excitement to sports when people care on either side who wins.
( note the WORST fans are ones like NC State who act like they don't care until they happen to win once a decade and then pretend to be blue bloods of college football)
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Orange Blooded [2176]
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Miami should shoulder most of the blame....
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May 10, 2024, 11:18 AM
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We brought them into the conference, announced after the 2002 season. At that point, Miami was an absolute top-level program fresh off of a Natty in 2001, and a controversial overtime Natty "loss" in 2002.
It seemed like an absolute home run at the time.
And they promptly did nothing for 20 years. Their "high mark" was one lousy Coastal Division title in 2017, and getting drilled by Clemson in Charlotte.
I blame Miami.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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Miami is the keystone of the inexplicable ACC failure.
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May 10, 2024, 11:37 AM
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But it is too much of a failure to be pinned on one institution.
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Legend [16430]
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We helped kill Miami by filling their annual schedule with
May 11, 2024, 6:57 PM
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UNC, Duke, UVA, and Ga Tech for years and years. Boring, no care wasted space that took up half their season. Boston College, Clemson, NC State, Maryland early on - the ACC gave them FSU as a league game and the rest was no sizzle.
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Legend [15760]
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If "bad/boring" football were the issue, The Big 10 would have folded long ago.
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May 10, 2024, 11:43 AM
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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You are not wrong. They have unwavering fan support though.
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May 10, 2024, 12:16 PM
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Somehow they found a way to keep it together and keep fans engaged.
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CU Guru [1055]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
May 10, 2024, 12:17 PM
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This is also another reason why the ACC has been better at basketball than football. It's a lot easier for smaller schools to compete in basketball because you only need about 10 or 15 players on a team. Whereas in football you'be got to have about 90 to 100 players. It doesn't take as many resources to support a basketball team so these smaller schools are able to be more competitive.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
May 10, 2024, 12:26 PM
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110%er [7221]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 10, 2024, 12:43 PM
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Completely Solid Orange I agree with all of this!
The only thing I hesitate on is: "when people challenge the notion of weakness of ACC football"!
In some prior years, Duke when Duke was bad beat Northwestern or Purdue. The ACC had winning records head to head vs. The Big 10 in fact.
The Big 10 in fact over the past 25 years still has fewer championships than the ACC does.
Ohio St. 2014
Ohio St. 2002
Michigan 2024
FSU 1999
FSU 2013
Clemson 2016
Clemson 2018
I get the half empty stadiums - but how often do you watch say, "Rutgers vs. Indiana"? It's the same thing. You have some schools who have very zealous fans and full to over capacity stadiums - but not top to bottom.
Many of the teams in the SEC and Big 10 get rankings they frequently do not deserve. Not the top 10 teams typically; but those in the 15 - 25 range will get the nod over a ACC squad that have beaten better opponents and has a better record. Could be a consequence of the perception of the ACC(I guess).
In principle, I get exactly what you are saying. I just can't give them a pass or the previously overrated Pac 12 a pass on the topic of football capability. Because, if you aren't 1st your what? 4 is more than the Pac 12's 2 over the last 25 years. 4 is more than the Big 10's 2 over the past 25 years. And again, more than what the top revenue earning Big 10 has over the last 25 years.
Only the SEC has won more.
Only the SEC has put more players in the NFL as well.
So, a lot of this to me is still "perception is reality" more so than the reality of the situation.
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110%er [7221]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
May 10, 2024, 12:45 PM
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Also, win and people will come. No doubt the stadiums being half-empty has lead to the horrible perception. But, that's not unique to the ACC.
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All-TigerNet [13060]
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Bad combination of mediocre football and
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May 10, 2024, 12:57 PM
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small fan bases that don't care alot about the sport. Say what you want about the SEC but over half of the league (8/14) is selling out 80-105k stadiums every weekend, and thats not including OU and Texas. The ACC has 2 members that consistently do that. VT and NCST are probably #3-4 in the ACC in football fan support and they would be in the bottom half or bottom 3rd of the SEC with Ark, Miss, Miss St, and maybe even Mizzou. Even Kentucky under Stoops has had solid fan support. The only true turd in that league is Vandy. Like half the schools in the ACC have turd fanbases for football.
You can't negotiate great TV deals when people aren't watching the games, and the core of the eyeballs on the screens need to come from the fanbases inside the conference itself. The ACC has clearly failed in that regard.
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Walk-On [112]
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temet nosce
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May 10, 2024, 1:21 PM
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Know thyself -- that is what the ACC leadership has failed to do. The problems detailed in this thread are not new, they have been known for decades.
If the ACC had a clue, we would be operating under an unequal revenue model where the programs that deliver the TV ratings get more money than the schools that do not. This can be funded with an annual contribution from each member school (say $5M/yr to fund a bonus bucket that pays out funds to schools that surpass the median level for the conference (the top 3 would get the lions share and the rest of the top half would at least recover their $5M payment)
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CU Guru [1055]
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Re: temet nosce
May 11, 2024, 9:42 AM
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Unequal revenue sharing worked wonders for the Big 12.
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Walk-On [112]
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Re: temet nosce
May 11, 2024, 5:04 PM
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It did until it didn't. And the reason the former Big12 members -- TAMU, Mizzou, Nebraska, Colorado -- bolted is because they had invites to go elsewhere.
Outside of Clemson and FSU, which of the current ACC members would have somewhere else to go?
Failure to recognize and acknowledge where this was headed is why the ACC is destined for the have nots heap
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Walk-On [112]
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Re: temet nosce
May 11, 2024, 6:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: temet nosce ] |
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Furthermore, the incentive package I described above could reward any member -- just put a product on the field that people want to watch and win a bigger slice of the pie.
The old Big12 gave Texas a bigger payout regardless of how bad the Longhorns were. That is a recipe for discontent and defection.
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Legend [19240]
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The Geographical divide kills this conference
May 10, 2024, 1:13 PM
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In NC and Virginia, it is basketball all year long. In SC, GA, and Florida it is football all year long. Reconciling that in a conference that does not focus on one was a mistake.
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All-In [44170]
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I agree. People here like to blame Swofford
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May 11, 2024, 9:58 AM
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but when he brought Miami, Virginia Tech, and Boston College on board they were strong football programs. No one saw them all declining like they did.
Louisville was also much better at football when they joined.
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Legend [16430]
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We kind of broke the ACC a little this past decade dominating as we did
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May 11, 2024, 11:10 AM
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on the gridiron.
We also took on a horrible strategy of scheduling with the amorphous Atlantic and Coastal division designations that snuffed out too many compelling games throughout the season in hopes of a bigger championship game matchup at the very end. We just got around to fixing that this past season scrapping divisions but it was too little too late. That failure is squarely in Swofford's court. He was actually trying to sell how great it was going to be when Clemson played Syracuse in football every year and the battle of the Orange it would represent. That's how backwards our scheduling strategy was.
There just aren't enough programs here with the kind of dedicated fan bases and commitment that the sport has been evolving towards. Half of ACC football programs are G5 level worthy only, and here we are.
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110%er [5442]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 11, 2024, 12:15 PM
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The ACC should have forced its member schools to invest in football or leave the conference. Too many are riding the coattails of the few.
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Heisman Winner [112345]
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It is pretty simple
May 11, 2024, 6:00 PM
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Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi and SC do not have Pro football teams, so fan support is off the charts in those states. Florida plays HS football year-round and is home to some of the densest pools of elite talent in the nation, so FSU and Florida will always be strong if they can keep their best kids on state.
Miami has no excuse, they have been putting guys in the NFL, but can not seem to find a good coach. It is the ultimate coaching job and recruiting hotbed. Luxury homes in Coral Gables are beyond description, and the school recruits itself.
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Associate AD [834]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
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May 11, 2024, 9:00 PM
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My dog could have negotiated a better deal than the deal Swofford made.
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Head Coach [788]
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Re: The ACC fell apart primarily due to the football programs being bad/boring.
May 15, 2024, 12:36 PM
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Only the SEC fields a better mix of teams week in week out...with the big you get OSU, UM, PSU...everyone else is fodder for the other...MSU dead, Wisconsin stinks, Northwestern has gone north, Indiana, I'll. & Iowa can't beat UofSC...ACC is a better overall conf. BIG12 is losing their crown jewels!...Hope we did not screw up at a bad time...you dogs turned Tigers want Clemson to be a second class citizen in the SEC! Now time will tell! Extra money will not make us national champs!
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Hall of Famer [23122]
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Sotra hard for those schools to build up WHEN, THE ACC ALLOWED ESecPN
May 15, 2024, 1:08 PM
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to continually talk crap for over a decade and bring out the ACC Wheel Of Destiny. As THE primary contract partner ,it was their job to PIMP the product, not talk crap to KEEP THE ACC IN THEIR PLACE.
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