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Ring of Honor [21535]
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Should we kick Wake Forest out of the ACC?
Aug 18, 2016, 1:03 PM
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Just putting this out there. Everybody's always looking to add members, sometimes you need to do addition by subtraction.
IMHO, Wake adds absolutely nothing to the ACC, and won't pull their weight, ever. They're a lower-tier mid-major program getting paid to take up space. They add absolutely nothing in football terms, they aren't even much of a basketball power anymore - how long has it been since guys like Tim Duncan played there? - and they also add the very smallest enrollment - just 7,591, and they're a private school to boot. They're also are sitting smack-dab in what's an already saturated media market...the ACC already rules Tobacco Road, with the Research Triangle schools all but sharing a zip code with Wake.
Without the ACC propping Wake Forest up; they'll fall to the Sun Belt or even FCS in record time. That's their actual level. They're also standing in the way of some vastly bigger programs that have way more upside. Jettison Wake and you could add UCF or USF - both with enrollments of 60,000+, both in the heart of Florida. They'll be major players one day. You could go north and ###### up somebody like West Virginia from the Big 12, where they've never really belonged. Or you could even target Penn State, who has never fit well into the Big 10. Happy Valley seats 100K; the Nittany Lions were a power once and will be again someday; they're too big not to.
That would ALSO allow you to divide up into true North and South divisions in the ACC, with everybody from North Carolina down in the South, and everybody from Virgina up in the North. Travel would be drastically reduced; regional rivalries would happen again.
Just a thought. But I really don't understand why we're carrying Wake anymore. They might have made sense...in 1960. But in the modern ACC, they really don't belong.
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Top TigerNet [29676]
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tennis and soccer powerhouse
Aug 18, 2016, 1:04 PM
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but suck in most other things
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Orange Elite [5342]
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Re: Should we kick Wake Forest out of the ACC?
Aug 18, 2016, 1:05 PM
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I wonder if their fans have this same conversation about us during basketball season....
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Tiger Titan [48079]
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Probably not considering they were 2-16 in the ACC last year
Aug 18, 2016, 1:08 PM
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nm
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Tiger Titan [48079]
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Without thinking about it too deeply...
Aug 18, 2016, 1:06 PM
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or understanding all the financial implications, I would say yes they should be gone. When players stayed 4 years in college basketball and college hoops were bigger I would have said no.
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Orange Beast [6185]
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Which school went 0-for in football & basketball last year?
Aug 18, 2016, 1:06 PM
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Wasn't Wake Forest.
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Tiger Titan [48079]
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They won a few games in basketball.*****
Aug 18, 2016, 1:09 PM
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Orange Beast [6185]
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I was talking about BC, but thanks for playing.
Aug 18, 2016, 1:10 PM
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nm
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Tiger Titan [48079]
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Cool bud, but you are on a topic about Wake. *****
Aug 18, 2016, 1:12 PM
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Orange Beast [6185]
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Actually, the topic was Wake's performance and ...
Aug 18, 2016, 1:16 PM
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... whether their performance should be grounds for removal from the ACC.
So, I pointed out another member of the ACC whose performance this last academic year in the two major men's sports in the ACC was much worse than Wake Forest's.
Thereby, I was defending Wake Forest.
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Tiger Titan [48079]
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Fair enough*****
Aug 18, 2016, 1:19 PM
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Top TigerNet [29676]
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Solid Orange [1327]
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CU Guru [1552]
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Re: Boston media market
Aug 18, 2016, 5:53 PM
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They are in the Boston market, but what kind of ratings do they get? They have to compete with Pats, Celtics, Red Sox, etc. So do they really get the kind of pull that other schools do in their respective markets? It's also possible that a terrible rating in Boston is still more eyeballs than upstate SC; I really have no idea.
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CU Medallion [20992]
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I am wondering if NCState is worth it
Aug 18, 2016, 1:10 PM
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Bad scheduling. Tends to lose a lot to East Carolina. Tailgate shootings. Of course they are not cheaters like UNCheat so I guess they have that going for them.
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Hall of Famer [22966]
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NCSt has been on NCAA probation a bunch....
Aug 18, 2016, 3:30 PM
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particularly in the 80's and 90's....they may, in fact, own the ACC record for number of NCAA investigations and penalties.
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Game Changer [1690]
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Re: Should we kick Wake Forest out of the ACC?
Aug 18, 2016, 1:14 PM
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I am pretty sure that is not possible. So, I wonder why people keep bringing it up.I might add that Wake was one of two schools that stood up for Clemson during "extra year of probation" discussion. In fact, I think their AD walked out of the meeting.
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CU Medallion [20992]
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The real problem is not kicking someone out at the
Aug 18, 2016, 1:17 PM
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moment but having a dynamic conference commissioner who has a great vision for the ACC and can get the other programs moving in the right direction.
The Clown has none of that. Just my 2 cents.
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Starter [260]
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Hall of Famer [8117]
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Who is everybody?
Aug 18, 2016, 1:17 PM
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The ACC just reached a new media deal, it's safe for the next 20 years.
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MVP [529]
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Re: Should we kick Wake Forest out of the ACC?
Aug 18, 2016, 1:18 PM
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Don't under estimate Wake Forest football. Years ago, Clemson/Wake Forest was a good rivalry when Peahead Walker was the coach and a good friend of Frank Howard. And more recently, losing to Wake Forest resulted in several Clemson coaches to get fired (Tommy West, Tommy Bowden).
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: Should we kick Wake Forest out of the ACC?
Aug 18, 2016, 1:40 PM
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Leave Wake Forest alone. They are an original member. Get rid of BC and Syracuse. Let them join the AAC with Temple and UConn. The ACC could then add Notre Dame, Penn State or W. Va. as full members given the right circumstances. Personally I think Vandy needs to leave the SEC like Ga. Tech did and join the ACC. USuck would never admit it made a huge mistake in leaving and their fans think they are on par with UF, UGa., and UT., however their actual best outcome would be rejoining the ACC if they even want any viable long term success. Money talks, but that is another subject. Forget Central Florida or East Carolina by the way. They are not on par academically or competition wise consistently,
Go Tigers!
Go Tigers!
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CU Guru [1497]
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But the Gamecocks are on par academically?
Aug 18, 2016, 3:35 PM
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Lol.  I'd take UCF over the cockerels any day.
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: But the Gamecocks are on par academically?
Aug 18, 2016, 10:28 PM
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Are you out of your mind? Wake Forest has earned and continues having a vastly better academic standing than USuck with few exceptions! Wake has the largest number of losses to the chickens, but they stayed in the ACC when McGuire and company decided to bail. Mike McGee, former AD at USC told me the ACC approached USuck about rejoining, but money was an issue. Carolina will always be the overlooked SEC school along with Miss. St. and Missouri no matter how hard they try.
Go Tigers!
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101427]
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No. Like tinker® mentioned, they stood by us (along with
Aug 18, 2016, 1:25 PM
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Merryland) while most of the ACC bent us over and gave us an additional year of probabtion. You want to kick a school out? Well how about Syracuse? Wish we'd never admitted that bunch of Yankee scum in the first place.
A brief synopsis of their major sports:
Football: a non-entity; they add nothing to the conference (except maybe tens of dozens of NY TV viewers)
Basketball: cheaters; currently on five years' probation
Baseball: they don't friggin have a baseball team
Soccer: I could care less
And worst of all:
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Tiger Titan [48079]
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Cuse is good for basketball and the ACC over the long haul.
Aug 18, 2016, 1:28 PM
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They might be good for the conference.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101427]
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Mmm hmm. A couple more of my favorites:
Aug 18, 2016, 1:36 PM
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TigerNet Elite [69702]
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110%er [3960]
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Just when I don't think you can use more words....
Aug 18, 2016, 1:46 PM
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....to say something stupid.
You find a way.
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Hall of Famer [22966]
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for us old farts, it doesn't seem like its been too long
Aug 18, 2016, 2:05 PM
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since Clemson was only marginally bigger (enrollment-wise) than Wake--and they were certainly the two smallest in the ACC. The Deacs have been there since the beginning of the conference. I don't remember them EVER even being investigated by the NCAA much less being placed on probation. The school left their affiliation with the Southern Baptist Convention and I understand even tolerates dancing these days.
Their fans longtime quizzical allegiance to unc (which may stem from their original proximity to chapelhole) has always disturbed me, but I feel we do owe Wake some loyalty....how could ya turn on a school who once had a football coach named "Peahead"??........:~)
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Game Changer [1979]
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Re: for us old farts, it doesn't seem like its been too long
Aug 18, 2016, 2:11 PM
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WF does have the weirdest mascots of the ACC
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Hall of Famer [22966]
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LOL....I still laugh when I remember
Aug 18, 2016, 3:10 PM
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"Look, Mommy...its the (Planters) Peanut Man!!"
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TigerNet Elite [69702]
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Oculus Spirit [42105]
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Hall of Famer [22966]
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Re: They were close to State not Chapel Hill***
Aug 18, 2016, 3:33 PM
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37 miles vs 18 miles....still not very far.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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CU Medallion [20744]
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No, but we should consider buying them out.
Aug 18, 2016, 2:26 PM
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Again, this is something that Wake may actually have interest in. With the new network, in addition to spending millions on a TV studio, programs should be mandated to invest up to a certain level in athletics. I just don't see Wake having the institutional stomach to try and stay at this level, which is vastly different than it was just some twenty years ago. It's a different world, and it's not for everyone.
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TigerNet Champion [117396]
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CU Medallion [20744]
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That's impressive what they're investing for their students.***
Aug 18, 2016, 5:20 PM
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TigerNet Champion [117396]
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It's a good thing football players are students first, unless
Aug 18, 2016, 5:30 PM
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you and Dabo have something you'd like to discuss?
The football/sports facilities/investments are impressive as well since it's all relative.
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CU Medallion [20744]
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No doubt. It's just that in a way this reaffirms the
Aug 18, 2016, 6:39 PM
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challenges that Wake will have when investing purely on the athletic side, which competing in this league is going to require more of. Relatively speaking, Wake is investing in athletics only at a G5 pace.
Our new football facility, the training table, locker rooms - there's quite a bit that Dabo has made happen that isn't part of the general student body population's experience, as Wake has primarily focused on here.
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TigerNet Champion [117396]
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They don't need to be Clemson, they need to be ~Duke now,
Aug 18, 2016, 7:36 PM
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a competitive football program or Wake of say ~10 years ago when they won the ACC[they don't have to win it again], plus field strong basketball[excellent history] & competitive Olympic sports teams.
If you're looking for ~32 Clemsons vying for a Division 1 title, then I'll wish you, IPTAY & college football a fare-the-well as my money and I leave though the nearest exit.
Wake is investing a huge amount considering their stead in the game and plenty of skin for a ~7,000 student private school. As for the investments to Wake proper, all boats rise with those Capex, including the sports programs - student-athletes spend far more time as students than athletes, which is as it should be.
Wake's going nowhere unless Wake decides to leave. I'm pleased to have them as part of the ACC as long as they wish and IF they continue to put their best foot forward as they have been or at least since GOR's ground zero.
If all the programs spent a relative amount that Wake is spending, a lot of the ACC's competitive issues will be addressed[may never address butts in seats] and teams such as VPI, UVA, 'Cuse, Pitt, Miami, UNC, NCST, GT would be everything they should be on the gridiron.
If one day Wake decides they don't want play the D1 football game any longer, it'll be a sad day in my world and a sign the end of my days with college football are numbered, if they aren't already.
I gave up the NFL[a former passion of mine] 10 years ago and I'll miss a "new" college football even less.
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CU Medallion [20744]
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Tangled up in blue.
Aug 18, 2016, 10:08 PM
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You know the SC school with the winningest all-time record against FSU? Erskine. Good bunch of kids these days over in Due West still.
I have no desire to see college football turned in to a mini-NFL. Homogeny, everyone having a set number of league games, 16 team mega-conferences, divisions, pods? - it all sounds like a lost wasteland. I'm leaning far more old school these days - throw out divisions and line 'em up each season. Nothing new about that, and it helps stem the expansion tide.
I actually agree with just about everything you're saying here, except that were Wake Forest to leave the ACC it would be the end of college football as we know it. Things change, along with priorities. Just because one conference changes out a team or two every few decades, the whole enchilada folds?
I am not advocating voting or forcing Wake Forest out of the ACC. I do advocate however opening the door for discussion of the benefits involved for all parties were they to step back and assess what will be required of them over the next twenty years. The ACC is an even-Steven league. Taking and giving. Share in the burden and rewards. Good life lessons for kids becoming adults.
BC is spending $200 million on improvements in their athletic department.
http://www.bc.edu/bc-web/bcnews/athletics-recreation/department-news/athletics-facilities-plans-announced.html
Siena is spending $13.5 Million on improvements in its athletic department.
http://blog.timesunion.com/collegesports/siena-begins-13-5-million-renovation-of-athletic-facilities/22170/
Were Wake Forest to align itself more with Army, Navy, East Carolina, Charlotte, App State, ODU, Marshall, Temple, etc. and invest and compete accordingly, what exactly is wrong with that? If it's their speed and style? They'd always have a schedule rotation with ACC schools in all sports no doubt.
I don't know. I appreciate your passion and fine wit. Go Tigers!
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TigerNet Champion [117396]
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Yes and FSCW was an all girls school until ~1950, which
Aug 18, 2016, 11:57 PM
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by the way was the last year the Generals of Washington & Lee won the Southern Conference.
Shortly after a number of football players were found to have cheated on a test in order to maintain their eligibility. As a result and immediately following, Washington & Lee did what any school would do and ended their D1 program forever. Academics far out-weighed something as waggish as scholarship football - Tru Story.
I'd seen BC's numbers as well. After growing the ACC[Cuse, UofL...] & GOR a lot of these programs seemed to become more commonplace. I imagine the conversation you suggest might take place has already done so, certainly before Clemson et al. signed their rights away. In other words, much of what we're seeing in Capital Expenditures, Sports & all[ACC isn't just a Sport's Conference] were a result of those heart to hearts during those trying times and what each school needed to do in order to better their offering and therefore the ACC's overall. I'd say those were needed conversations before tethering themselves to each other for this extended duration. They're married and if they're going to be married, they all wanted to get laid. Can you blame them? I know I would and really, that's just good business.
So for me, the conference renewed their vows, new members & old, then consummated shortly after.
And who among us doesn't like lessons? Another great lesson is honoring your word, which would mean the ACC stand by a charter member as long as that charter member contributes their share. Much of BC's numbers - The recreational center, a 240,000 square-foot facility that will replace the Flynn Recreation Complex and be located at the site of Edmonds Hall on Thomas More Drive, will benefit all BC students, faculty and staff. Wake's numbers easily meet BC's, remembering BC is twice the size of Wake not even bringing in the disparity of costs between Boston & Winston Salem.
Hidden in the first $325,000,000.00 Wake spent are improvements to the sports infrastructure as well with Haddock House, Diane Dailey Learning Center, Sutton Center, the Health & Exercise Science Center, renos to their Ballpark, to their Track & Field, Indoor Football Practice Facility and only the early beginnings of the complete redo of Reynolds Gym.
And just for kicks, Bob McCreary, the kind gentlemen Wake Forest named the new 80,000 sq. foot Indoor Practice facility in honor of donated $12.5 million alone so maybe he wants to put together a team and play Siena?
Wake's All-In; I don't see it any other way until Wake & Wake alone decides they want to cash out. And if that time comes, I'll reassess my love for a great game, a collegiate game, but it won't be that change alone as too many have come and gone. It just might be the final one that pushes me away.
And no, I don't expect anyone to see the world as I do, but I promise you the view from my perch is 2nd to none - just ask me.
Be well, Tangled.
mp
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Game Day Hero [4507]
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Re: Yes and FSCW was an all girls school until ~1950, which
Aug 19, 2016, 2:37 PM
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DSP, I have to say, ya had me a bit misty there. Couldn't have put it better myself. Loyalty to our fellow institutions of higher learning is as important as any other kind. Wake is a long time member who has always run clean programs to my knowledge. They have been competitive at times, bad at others, but always were a program that I never felt any malice towards. In today's quest for Super Conferences, a lot of these great historic series are going by the wayside. Say what you want about the Big10, but do you hear them talk about getting rid of Minnisota or Northwestern? Because historically N'Western had been bad much more than good. Until Alvarez got to WI they were horrible. But one thing about the Big, they LOVE the history of their games, for good or bad.
As a young boy I was thrilled to watch my beloved Tigers on a Saturday afternoons on Jefferson Pilot, as they took on the Deacs, The wreck, or those darn Hoos, whatever that was. I couldn't care less about Syracuse, am tepid at best for BC, and the thought of adding UCF or USF does nothing for me. I too believe those programs have a bright futute, but not for the ACC.
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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TigerNet Champion [117396]
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Haha, Aruba might be calling, but I don't expect Crump
Aug 18, 2016, 11:58 PM
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to pay for that one.
And hap, hap, happy Birthday to the twins! I kno/ew them well.
no pigs
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Clemson Sports Icon [52860]
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I hope when we are down the other teams don't want to kick
Aug 18, 2016, 3:24 PM
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Us out of the ACC. I could understand if we had never done anything and we were in the SEC getting kicked out but not in the ACC, we're stronger than that.
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Oculus Spirit [42105]
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They stuck up for us, they are gold for life.***
Aug 18, 2016, 3:25 PM
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Oculus Spirit [39201]
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But Demon Deacons though ...
Aug 18, 2016, 4:03 PM
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Probably my favorite mascot in all the land .
They also are academically strong ...and apparently this is a huge qualifier to remain in , or be invited into the ACC , which is nice for those who want to be in it and experience all this smarty pantsed , good old boy conference has to offer
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Paw Master [16363]
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Deacons recently won an ACC FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP
Aug 18, 2016, 5:48 PM
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This is such a tired, silly question.
Wake won the ACC Title in football only 10 years ago. Since then, only VT, Clemson, FSU and GT have won titles and GT had to forfeit their title for cheating.
Wake won the ACC FOOTBALL TITLE more recently than Duke, UNC, or NCSU. Winning on the field does count.
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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No! Tired of hearing this!
Aug 18, 2016, 6:05 PM
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I get it, they don't bring much to the table. But I like having a strong academic conference and I wouldnt trade Wake for WVU, Uconn, Cincinnati, or any other potential acc school
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All-In [10143]
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Re: No! Tired of hearing this!
Aug 18, 2016, 6:09 PM
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But would you trade them for Texas?
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Trainer [39]
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Re: No! Tired of hearing this!
Aug 18, 2016, 6:12 PM
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Well they did when the acc championship in 2006. It's all about having a coach.
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CU Guru [1270]
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Wake Deserves our RESPECT!
Aug 18, 2016, 6:16 PM
[ in reply to No! Tired of hearing this! ] |
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They joined the original 1953 ACC Conference as a Charter Member! They are also Highly Academic! FYI: Bowman Gray Medical along with many other Top Notch Academic Accomplishments. They have also scored in the Sports area also. We've been down before, so please don't kick one of our Charter Members to the Curb!!! But I have to say this: "Go Tigers whip the Deacons"!!!!!!!!!!!!
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110%er [3821]
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sometimes I want to throw up
Aug 18, 2016, 6:18 PM
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when the "bigger is always better" people talk....
Now, I get it Q. You're thinking big picture college football and where's it all going.
Well, let's just make sure before we do go there, we think about the NASCAR problem.
Couple of years ago they jettisoned the small tracks and backwater towns to go whole hog in places like Indy and Vegas.
People warned them they were losing their history, but they didn't listen -
and it really hasn't worked out all too well for them either.
Hail, they can't fill up Indy for giving away tickets to Hispanics fleeing from Trump's insanity.
Wake's BBall program has suffered, but I think it'll be back. They may never win another Football conference title
but they'll compete in golf and other specialized, low overhead sports. And that's enough.
You simply can't have a whole conference filled with Ohio State, Alabama, Texas, Notre Dame, and Clemson.
Every play can't be the game-winner; and every game can't be the Super Bowl.
Ultimately, it makes for bad theatre, and even worse sport.
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Rival Killer [3000]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Should we kick Wake Forest out of the ACC?
Aug 18, 2016, 7:43 PM
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A vote for tradition. Wake joined ACC in 1953 as the first addition to original 7. Not really sure given their conference history anybody would be in favor.
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110%er [4006]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Should we kick Wake Forest out of the ACC?
Aug 19, 2016, 12:15 AM
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Wake is a part of the original 7. UVa was joined as the 8th member later in 1953.
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Ultimate Tiger [36452]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 18324
Joined: 2013
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No! I've said it before...
Aug 18, 2016, 10:10 PM
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There is more to the ACC than sports!!! How about Academics? Wake is a great school.
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Paw Master [16555]
TigerPulse: 100%
51
Posts: 17947
Joined: 1999
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No. Again, no founding member of the ACC is getting booted.***
Aug 19, 2016, 12:01 AM
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CU Guru [1047]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Nope***
Aug 19, 2016, 1:03 AM
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Replies: 60
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