|
Replies: 57
| visibility 1918
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Sacrificial death
4
May 28, 2024, 11:57 AM
|
|
Saw a lot of memes this past weekend comparing Jesus to the American soldier.
One key difference between them…
Jesus supposedly knew what was on the other side. He knew that he’d be raised again to eternal glory.
So was it really a sacrifice at all?
|
|
|
|
 |
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
If he knew, why did he cry "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".
3
May 28, 2024, 12:21 PM
|
|
First, did God forsake Jesus? Or was Jesus wrong?
Then, why did Jesus, ask, when surely he knew, being God and all.
Apologists go through all kinds of twists and leaps to rationalize and explain it, but it's a sad and obvious stretch in an attempt to make sense of something that makes no sense.
And of course, for an all-powerful God, no such sacrifice, no atonement, and no suffering was necessary in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: If he knew, why did he cry "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".
2
May 28, 2024, 12:28 PM
|
|
That’s a good point. Jesus is quoted predicting his resurrection, but the text we have are all dated to decades later.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [61007]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 22858
Joined: 5/24/17
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
As God, wouldn't he know?***
2
May 29, 2024, 8:52 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95836
Joined: 12/25/09
|
The God part of Christ was died before the man part/human body.
1
May 29, 2024, 3:46 PM
|
|
No human has ever endured a total absence of God while in a human body, never! He was a human going where no living soul had gone. Spiritual death is simply being absent from God.
It will be that shock which awaits those who fail to surrender to Jesus and accept His cleansing blood.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: The God part of Christ was died before the man part/human body.
1
May 29, 2024, 4:38 PM
|
|
Any why would it be a shock 88? I thought everyone was choosing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: His blood? What role does his blood play?***
1
May 29, 2024, 6:50 PM
|
|
Both Judaism and Christianity revolve around blood sacrifice.
The OT says god finds the aroma of burning flesh pleasing; literally.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: His blood? What role does his blood play?***
1
May 29, 2024, 7:05 PM
|
|
I am very aware of that. CUIT below said that Jesus's sacrifice was not what happened on the cross, but what happened the 3 days following, which would mean his physical death and suffering (blood) were not what it was about. Just trying to see if 88 agrees or how that idea factors in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95836
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Christ's blood is what washes away a man's sin.
1
May 31, 2024, 3:36 AM
[ in reply to His blood? What role does his blood play?*** ] |
|
Please read the Bible. I don't care what you think about it and neither does God.
Would you please start in the Gospel of John and try to read one single chapter each day for a few weeks? Please, it's the only think I'll ever ask you to do for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Christ's blood is what washes away a man's sin.
1
May 31, 2024, 6:40 AM
|
|
Isn’t this something god could tell us and not some guy on tigernet?
I find it exceedingly odd that we only hear what god thinks/wants from men.
I suppose that’s why nobody agrees on what he says/wants. Kinda makes sense
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18215]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9068
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: If he knew, why did he cry "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".
2
May 29, 2024, 7:42 AM
[ in reply to If he knew, why did he cry "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". ] |
|
Jesus is known as the "Lamb Who was slain from the foundation of the world." Have you ever read Psalm 22? There is a correlation between David, the flesh, and the Son of God for a reason.
If you read Psalm 22, please note the [break] where the passage concludes the idea of suffering and shifts to the victory over suffering. The shift begins with these words, "You have answered me."
As to the statement of being forsaken, just one point of view:
“My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
Behind the poignant question lies an awful reality—the suffering Savior actually was, literally and completely, forsaken by God. The eternal Son who had always been the object of His Father’s delight was now abandoned. The Perfect Man who unfailingly did the will of God experienced the terrible desolation of being cut off from God.
The question is, “Why?” Why should the holy, sinless Son of God suffer the concentrated horror of eternal hell in those three long hours of darkness? Scripture gives us the answer. First of all, God is holy, righteous and just, and this means that He must punish sin wherever He finds it. To wink at sin or to overlook it is impossible for God. That brings us to the second point. Although the Lord Jesus had no sins of His own, He took our sins upon Himself. He voluntarily assumed responsibility to pay the penalty of all our iniquities. The debt we owed was charged to His account, and He willingly became surety for it all. But now what can God do? All His righteous attributes demand that sin be punished. Yet here He looks down and sees His only begotten Son becoming the scapegoat for others. The Son of His love has become our sin-bearer. What will God do when He sees our sins laid on His own beloved Son?
There was never any doubt as to what God would do! He deliberately unleashed all the fury of His righteous wrath on His own beloved Son. The fierce torrent of divine judgment broke upon the innocent Victim. For our sakes, Christ was forsaken by God so that we might never be forsaken.
Thus when we read of Christ’s deep, deep suffering, it should always be with the keen awareness that He bore it all for us. We should punctuate each statement with the words for me. He was forsaken—for me. When I hear Him cry, “Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning?” I know that it was for me. And it was for my sake that the heavens were silent to Him by day and by night.
MacDonald, W. (1995). Believer’s Bible Commentary: Old and New Testaments (A. Farstad, Ed.; pp. 576–577). Thomas Nelson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Good lawd - forgive me for not reading all of that, but it's a simple
2
May 29, 2024, 8:57 AM
|
|
question.
Did God forsake Jesus, or was Jesus wrong?
Which was it? It's one or the other ... unless, as I said
Apologists go through all kinds of twists and leaps to rationalize and explain it, but it's a sad and obvious stretch in an attempt to make sense of something that makes no sense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Good lawd - forgive me for not reading all of that, but it's a simple
3
May 29, 2024, 11:56 AM
|
|
I realize it's a long response, but he did answer the question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Okay - thank you. My bad. The answer, as given only prompts more questions.
1
May 29, 2024, 1:56 PM
|
|
The obvious and immediate question is: Why would God make, or even allow, anyone to suffer unnecessarily? The reason seems to be "because God is just, and justice must be carried out". How is punishing someone who is totally innocent "just"? Here we go in that circle, but I'll point out again, nothing "must be" for an all-powerful God. The idea that somebody must pay a price to soothe God's anger and avoid his wrath is understandable for men living thousands of years ago, but not now; it's absurd.
Also, the purpose of punishment is to deter and correct. Punishment that is done simply to "pay back" or "balance the scales" or satisfy the rage of someone in power is not seen as just or righteous by any free, modern society. An eternity burning in hell serves no corrective measure, and only deters if you believe it exists. Hard to see how real justice plays into it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Okay - thank you. My bad. The answer, as given only prompts more questions.
3
May 29, 2024, 4:47 PM
|
|
It is odd that Jesus was supposedly the "humble servant" and we are to follow his example.
Throwing people in hell for eternity for not worshipping you is not very humble.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: Okay - thank you. My bad. The answer, as given only prompts more questions.
1
May 29, 2024, 8:35 PM
|
|
Not very humble, but it fits with the concept of conquering kings that people of those times applied to their gods.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18215]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9068
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: If he knew, why did he cry
2
May 29, 2024, 4:55 PM
|
|
A soldier may lose their life in war, but not all "give" their life [intentionally] to save others. YES, there are times when one does, such as a soldier falling on a grenade to protect his fellow soldiers. He gives up his life without hesitation... for the few.
Jesus not only falls on the grenade, He does it for everyone. He does it not to protect anyone from death, but to remove whom will believe from death altogether. Not of the body, but of the spirit. It is one thing to die once, it is entirely a different thing to die twice.
Not only does Jesus die for all, He also takes responsibility for all the sins of those who will believe in Him. There is no sin sin that Jesus has not taken responsibility of...save blasphemy of the Spirit - the unpardonable sin (not suicide).
Jesus also descended into hell between His death and resurrection. He did so to release those who believed in Him - see 1 Peter 4:6 and Ephesians 4:9. Just in the simplest way I can, people refused to have faith in Him even then. Do I understand it all? NO. But I do know that Jesus also stated that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when He describes eternal hell. The gnashing of teeth reference is not as one that points to pain and suffering, but one that points to anger at God.
The Big Dog®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: If he knew, why did he cry
1
May 29, 2024, 7:40 PM
|
|
>Just in the simplest way I can, people refused to have faith in Him even then.
You say "even then" as if you just presented some iron clad evidence, though. You didn't, you just presented some unsubstantiated claims.
Furthermore, look into it a bit: there are very good reasons to think Peter did not write Peter and Paul didn't write Ephesians.
So not only are you appealing to unsubstantiated claims, they are almost certainly forgeries. You don't have to be a scholar to understand the arguments, either.
So, I don't know why you are so incredulous when we don't believe claims that we literally have no way to verify.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Team Captain [471]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 404
Joined: 2/20/23
|
Re: If he knew, why did he cry
1
May 30, 2024, 8:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: If he knew, why did he cry ] |
|
I would contend with but one point. All soldiers "give" their life intentionally to save others. Not how you meant the reference I'm sure. But the men and women that serve, that stand up and say I'll go or better still (since this the R&P board) say "send me" have made that sacrifice. Not all make the "ultimate sacrifice" that we gave honor to this past Monday. But they have chosen a life different from the one I lead. And I am thankful for it.
I've been thinking a lot about this thread. There's seems to be a lot of "what did he know and when did he know it?" theme going. I don't really have an answer. Jesus asked a question. God answered it.
We could do the same when Jesus said, "It is finished". Was it? Why did he say that knowing full well it wasn't finished? I can come to terms with his life, his life's work was finished. And that's what he meant. But at the end of the day, I can't even pretend to know what God meant or what Jesus meant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Sacrificial death
3
May 28, 2024, 5:01 PM
|
|
You want to be beaten to near death then hung on a cross? Sounds like a pretty big sacrifice to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
CU says that wasn't the sacrifice.***
1
May 29, 2024, 9:25 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Sacrificial death
1
May 29, 2024, 12:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sacrificial death ] |
|
A big sacrifice yes. Worthy of eternal worship? I would say no.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Sacrificial death
3
May 28, 2024, 8:02 PM
|
|
Your point is valid, that almost any parent would do that for their child, which alone is worthy of the response by the child. However, the sacrifice in this case was what happens afterward, when one dies separated from the Father, per Jesus's words in Smiling's comment. Whatever that was, whatever it was that caused him to sweat blood the day before, occurred in eternity where time has no meaning, so it wasnt a 72 hour thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
This is one of those times where you lost me, my friend.***
2
May 28, 2024, 9:19 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: This is one of those times where you lost me, my friend.***
2
May 28, 2024, 10:42 PM
|
|
It wasnt the physical death that was the sacrifice, but what then happened to Jesus as a result, during what we call 3 days, but which occurred in eternity. The OP question was about Jesus's physical death and his knowledge that it wasnt permanent, which is a valid question, and I responded that it seems the issue is not that, but what then happened to him in what we call 3 days.
I hope this clears it up. If not, I cant say it any other way. You will have reached the limits of my intelligence. I will say that others have done it faster.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Interesting - I've never heard that view, that Jesus's sacrifice was not
2
May 28, 2024, 11:31 PM
|
|
his death and suffering on the cross, but something else, and I was raised in the church and have attended regularly at times as an adult. Seems the OP's question still applies, however, as whatever it was, Jesus supposedly knew it was coming. Don't know what you mean by what happened during the 3 days.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Interesting - I've never heard that view, that Jesus's sacrifice was not
2
May 29, 2024, 1:03 AM
|
|
Yes, interesting questions. They lead to an interesting observation, I think.
You are right that rarely do we discuss the difference between physical and spiritual death. We speak in shorthand of "death". The reason the spiritual aspect of Jesus's sacrifice is generally understood is that an atonement is a payment of a consequence or debt. We all die physically, and after Jesus's death/resurrection we continue to die physically, so what he atoned was some other consequence of the Fall.
There has been some discussion on this board about what hell is, usually in derision of the language of lakes and fires. We cant know what it is like, but whatever it is - and Jesus would know - would seem to come from "why have you forsaken me", a fate Jesus considered to be worse than death. So, what happened in eternity, which we experienced as 3 days? I dont know, and dont want to know. You've seen me quote this before, "I would rather be punished by a God who loves me than be turned over to the humanity I am coming to understand."
Here is how bad it seems fo have been: Jesus, who was with the Father at the beginning and at the Fall, and who knew of the redemptive plan, and who knew it when he came ... after being with us for 33 years weighed the matter in his hands, us on one hand and those 3 days on the other, and said, "It's not worth it." All his children were not worth whatever was going to happen in those three days. He told the Father, "Find another way. I'll do this only if you tell me to." John 3:16. Jesus said that to Nic a year or so before he had to face it, and in the end it was too much. But he obeyed and did it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Team Captain [471]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 404
Joined: 2/20/23
|
Re: Interesting - I've never heard that view, that Jesus's sacrifice was not
2
May 29, 2024, 8:42 AM
|
|
Probably one of the better explanations I've heard. Jesus is asking Nic,"What are you willing to give up? (sacrifice?). We hear this several times, "store up your treasures in heaven...", "a camel through the eye of the needle...", etc. Yes, Jesus knew his fate on earth and heaven. I think of the Apostles Creed....He descended into hell..yes, he knew there was redemption but first there's this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Odd that churches don't teach it that way, and instead teach it differently.
2
May 29, 2024, 8:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Interesting - I've never heard that view, that Jesus's sacrifice was not ] |
|
Anyway, so back to my follow-up question. Did God forsake Jesus, or was Jesus wrong? Or, have you worked out a way to explain how neither is the case? I was unable to derive an answer from your response. Again, thanks for your patience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Odd that churches don't teach it that way, and instead teach it differently.
1
May 29, 2024, 9:55 AM
|
|
I do not know whether I was inside the walls of a church when I heard all this discussed, but I didn't make any of this up. Granted, few sermons are theological explanations of questions, but nothing I said is new.
Did the Father forsake Jesus? Whatever hell is, Jesus seems to have experienced it. Doesnt seem like he was wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Okay, so your answer is "Yes, God forsook Jesus".
1
May 29, 2024, 10:41 AM
|
|
See how simple that was?
It's also interesting that Jesus, being God, did not see it coming.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Okay, so your answer is "Yes, God forsook Jesus".
1
May 29, 2024, 4:16 PM
|
|
I was doing my best. Sorry I irritated you. You maybe didnt notice you had not asked me that follow up question to get 'back to'. Maybe asked someone else.
I think he saw it coming. If he knew it enough to ask out, i would think he knew before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: Okay, so your answer is "Yes, God forsook Jesus".
2
May 29, 2024, 6:02 PM
|
|
No problem - you didn't irritate me. It's just awfuly tough getting a straight answer to a simple question in here sometimes.
You maybe didnt notice you had not asked me that follow up question to get 'back to'. Maybe asked someone else.
In a reply to you: https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/odd-that-churches-dont-teach-it-that-way-and-instead-teach-it-differently.-34949254
I think he saw it coming. If he knew it enough to ask out, I would think he knew before.
That scenario is based on your idea that the sacrifice and suffering was not Jesus suffering and dying on the cross, which I think is the understanding almost all Christians have, but rather something later, which I have a hard time accepting. It seems to me more like a twisting of the story to make it fit with a preexisting dogma and avoid a contradiction, all while ignoring what seems to be straightforward and self-evident (Jesus was sacrificed and suffered and died a horrible death on the cross, and did not understand why, so he asked God why).
Still, even if I accept that premise, then it still doesn't explain why Jesus did not understand, and had to ask God why. As God, surely he would have understood.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Okay, so your answer is "Yes, God forsook Jesus".
1
May 30, 2024, 12:16 AM
|
|
Your complaints that answers are not straightforward seem to be in response to discussions about the difference between our time-limited physical existence and whatever eternity is. That is a proposal one has a right to state. Whether that is straightforward or not, I dont know. In this case, Christianity 101 is that Jesus paid the consequence of your and my sinful state. That consequence is not limited to physical death. This means he experienced something much more, in eternity. If that is not straightforward, I can say it no other way.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: Okay, so your answer is "Yes, God forsook Jesus".
1
May 30, 2024, 1:47 AM
|
|
There was not a question in that comment. You did ask a question of someone else.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. You might want to look again:
Anyway, so back to my follow-up question. Did God forsake Jesus, or was Jesus wrong?
That is clearly a question, in that comment, as part of a reply to your comment. So, it was addressed to you. Yes, originally it was addressed to someone else, in another post (which anyone is free to respond to) but this one was addressed to you directly. I don't understand how this has been so misunderstood.
According to the bible, Jesus believed God had forsaken him.
All I'm asking is, is that correct, did God forsake Jesus?
Did Thomas Jefferson pen The Declaration of Independence?
Did you state in the preceding post "There was not a question in that comment"?
Did Clemson win the NCAA football championship for 2023?
Aside from "I don't know", all of those questions have a one word answer. None require multiple paragraphs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Okay, so your answer is "Yes, God forsook Jesus".
1
May 30, 2024, 9:58 AM
|
|
I was apparently editing as you were typing - decided to keep it short - which I posted before your newest post. All I know is, when you ask me a question I answer as best I can, and you have been returning with snarky comments. In this case, I even thought you said I answered it, pointing out how simple it was. Why you are upset at me, I do not know. I suppose that is up to you.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: Okay, so your answer is "Yes, God forsook Jesus".
2
May 30, 2024, 10:50 AM
|
|
I did not intend to be snarky - just responding as I would to any friend in a back and forth conversation. My friends and I have conversations and debates like that all of the time. Nobody is insulted and nobody's feelings are hurt. Forgive me if I assumed too much, and I'm sorry if it came across some other way. I felt that I was asking a very simple, binary question, "Did God forsake Jesus?". Not only did I not get a straight answer, you said I had not even asked the question.
Ultimately, your answer, I think, was "Did the Father forsake Jesus? Whatever hell is, Jesus seems to have experienced it. Doesnt seem like he was wrong." From that I assumed (maybe incorrectly, I'm not sure) that was your way of saying "Yes, God forsook Jesus" without coming right out and saying it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I was trying to have a conversation, and to me, it felt like you were doing something else. As I have admitted before, I often have trouble following and keeping up with you, so maybe it's all on me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Okay, so your answer is "Yes, God forsook Jesus".
2
May 30, 2024, 6:55 PM
|
|
No worries at all. Thought I was frustrating you. I was surprised, so should have assumed otherwise. My fault.
Rather than merely saying "yes", I meant to affirm your own thoughts. IE, answer is yes, because (1) Jesus said he was experiencing isolation/rejection, and (2) part of the NT idea is that this separation is what happens to us as a result of our sinful sate of being, and that he atoned that for us, meaning he had to experience it. So, yes.
As a separate idea, that is worse than a physical death, I think. Discussing those together was probably confusing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Well ...
2
May 30, 2024, 10:48 PM
|
|
It doesn't take much to confuse me anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Well ...
2
May 31, 2024, 1:37 AM
|
|
I'm the small town mayor running for re-election with the campaign motto: "I'm doing the best I can."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Sacrificial death
4
May 29, 2024, 6:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Sacrificial death ] |
|
"Your point is valid, that almost any parent would do that for their child"
That's not exactly my point. What I had in mind was, like you eventually said, what happens after, or maybe rather what doesn't. The american solidier dies knowing they will never see the light of another day. Maybe they have some type of faith, but it's still just that...faith.
If Jesus was who the modern christian claims he was, his death was a simply a formality in god's plan, not a sacrifice. The definition of sacrifice is to give something up. What did Jesus lose by going to the cross?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Sacrificial death
1
May 29, 2024, 10:06 AM
|
|
We view it as being dead 3 days. He experienced in eternity death apart from God in eternity. No one still in the physical world can explain how both are true.
Did he lose anything? John saw him as "a lamb as though slain". Dead, but not dead, which is maybe how a guy existing in time might explain something peering into eternity. I would not buy into the idea that it didnt cost him anything, or isnt still. Eternity isnt like our experience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Sacrificial death
4
May 29, 2024, 11:09 AM
|
|
I see what you’re saying. Kind of an Interstellar plot where all of time is experienced at once. I’ve watched that movie 10 times and still don’t understand it fully.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I've always thought of it like this ...
1
May 29, 2024, 2:07 PM
|
|
For us, we view the universe like watching a movie, or being a character in a movie, as it is being made. We can rewind and watch a lot of what has already been made, but can't see past what has been made as of right now.
For God, he views all of existence like a living painting, everything all at once. Everything that ever was, and ever will be, including perhaps all possibilities that never happened or may yet happen. We're actors in a movie, while he's the artist looking at his painting. For us, there is past, present, and future, while for God, there is only now.
That's about the best I can do with the brain God gave me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I've always thought of it like this ...
1
May 29, 2024, 4:08 PM
|
|
The problem is you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with those thoughts.
There is no such thing as a live painting. You are concocting this in your mind to try and explain the unexplainable.
There is no evidence for god, much less that he observes things like you just described.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I've always thought of it like this ...
1
May 29, 2024, 5:05 PM
|
|
Oh, there is evidence, it's just on par with the evidence for a flat earth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
That is entirely a matter of opinion. God can neither be proven or disproven.
1
May 29, 2024, 6:23 PM
|
|
I understand that there is no clear scientific proof for God's existence, however I think there is plenty of evidence that points that way. I also realize that many people disagree, and have ways of explaining that evidence away, and I'm fine with that. I know there are good, intelligent people on all sides of this issue, and I respect the fact that it's an individual decision whether or not to believe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: That is entirely a matter of opinion. God can neither be proven or disproven.
2
May 29, 2024, 6:52 PM
|
|
>I know there are good, intelligent people on all sides of this issue, and I respect the fact that it's an individual decision whether or not to believe.
I agree.
>I understand that there is no clear scientific proof for God's existence, however I think there is plenty of evidence that points that way.
Exactly, as I said, it's like flat earth evidence. There IS clear evidence the earth is round. There is bad evidence that it's flat.
Same thing here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Again, entirely a matter of opinion.
1
May 29, 2024, 7:52 PM
|
|
And there's good enough evidence for me, and I'm not interested in trying to convince anybody else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Again, entirely a matter of opinion.
1
May 29, 2024, 9:49 PM
|
|
>And there's good enough evidence for me, and I'm not interested in trying to convince anybody else.
That's fine, I'm not trying to convince you, it's just fun to discuss.
In that vein, are you saying it's a matter of opinion in my round/flat earth example too? or you think there is better evidence for god than there is for flat earth?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: Again, entirely a matter of opinion.
1
May 29, 2024, 11:54 PM
|
|
I think the evidence that the earth is not flat is much greater than the evidence that there is no God, and my belief that there is a god is not based entirely on evidence as such. Beyond that, I am not willing to get into a back and forth over it, point by point, because I know you don't agree, and I prefer to let it go at that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Again, entirely a matter of opinion.
2
May 30, 2024, 7:03 AM
|
|
Not agreeing is kind of the point of forums, though, no? It's the fun part if you ask me.
Also, aren't you badgering CUIT a thread above for not answering questions?
I completely get "my belief that there is a god is not based entirely on evidence as such". If you are convinced you are convinced, I don't believe that is a choice.
What I am interested in though is what you are calling evidence for god.
>I think the evidence that the earth is not flat is much greater than the evidence that there is no God
I think we should compare apples to apples.
Evidence FOR round earth with evidence FOR God. Or vice-a-versa, I suppose, but I don't think god(s) is/are falsifiable, whereas round/flat earth is.
We don't need to go round and round, I'm just curious if you have an example of something that isn't:
a. A claim we can't verify
b. god of the gaps
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Good points, totally fair.
1
May 30, 2024, 9:48 AM
|
|
As I've said before, my beliefs about God and religion are a result of the totality of my experience.
Bottom line, I think that the idea that there is a source for all of this simply makes more sense than it's all just a random occurence. I am well aware of all of the arguments against (former atheist), but this is where I have landed, and it just feels right. Since I can't know for sure, even after examining all "evidence" over and over and over, I go with my gut. I know that doesn't make me right and everybody else wrong, and I understand how feelings can be misleading, but it's just the best I can do. My mind remains totally open, but that's where I'm at. If somebody drops something new and earth-shattering that I haven't considered, I could change my mind. Until then I'm good.
Honestly, I'm not trying to badger CU; I'm just engaging as long as he's willing, but yes, at some point we all reach a point where there is no point in continuing down the same path, and just have to accept our differences.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Sacrificial death
2
May 29, 2024, 4:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sacrificial death ] |
|
It occurs to me that maybe your OP is not about the nature soldiers' and Jesus's deaths, but about a meme that clumsily equates the two. I would agree that the meme is a bit off putting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95836
Joined: 12/25/09
|
He endured spiritual death which no man has done before their soul left...
3
May 29, 2024, 3:52 PM
|
|
their body. That is literally what killed Jesus. When the soldiers came to break the legs of both thieves and Jesus they found Jesus dead already. Romans broke the legs of those crucified so as to make if difficult or impossible to use the legs to lift the body and make room for the diaphragm to pull air into the lungs. Those who had their legs broken literally smothered to death.
They pierced Jesus side to ensure He was dead. It was a failsafe.
So no, the comparison is sorely inaccurate, imo. I wouldn't tell the mama of son who died in battle. I wouldn't tell her that her hairdo looks gay either.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 57
| visibility 1918
|
|
|
50
