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All-In [42197]
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"It's all part of God's plan."
Jul 29, 2015, 9:30 PM
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Yeah, yeah... another abortion post. Okay, let's all agree that selling body parts of fetuses is bad. Okay? We good? Good. Let's move on from that.
Over the years, one topic I've debated with people of faith is how horrible things happen to certain individuals, or, specifically, children. I've had personal experience with horrible tragedies that have befallen children, and I've struggled to wrap my brain around why a Christian God would allow it to happen. So that's the debate I've had with them. Generally, their answer has boiled down to this: "It's all part of God's plan, and we can't understand what that is."
Okay. So the two little brothers, ages 5 and 7, who drowned in a nearby watering hole in Moncks Corner when the older tried to rescue the younger, is somehow part of a divine plan by the creator that we can't understand. I don't get that, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say that's the case. The people of faith will also say they're with God now in Heaven. Okay, again, let's say that's the case.
And then we come to abortion. That's when I see people of faith make claims that God is going to punish us or make us pay for legalizing abortion (as indicated in the article junk yard tiger posted below).
But wait a minute. Are you now telling me that this isn't part of the plan for the omnipotent God? And don't say it's because people are doing the killing. I've heard the same "it's part of God's plan" when someone murders a 3 year old or a kid is accidentally blown up in a war. And if a baby dies after only a few months following birth, is that also part of God's plan? If so, how is that making it any better than a woman having an abortion?
Look, I've said it several times. I don't like abortion. It disturbs me. But I keep hearing all these people say how we're going to burn or God's wrath is going to descend upon us, yet when an innocent child meets a horrible fate, it's all "part of the plan"?
Which seems like a pretty ###### up plan to me, and I don't think it's any better than someone who commits an abortion.
After all, I'm assuming they believe the aborted children are in Heaven as well, correct?
Anyway... night time ramblings. Help me understand it all. Seriously, and no snark intended. So I would appreciate serious answers.
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All-In [38203]
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lol
Jul 29, 2015, 9:56 PM
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God
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CU Guru [1147]
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thumbs up
Jul 30, 2015, 9:46 PM
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at least you capitalized the "G"
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CU Medallion [58427]
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I think people who say that bad things are "part of God's
Jul 29, 2015, 10:53 PM
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plan" have the wrong concept of God, of what God is. I consider myself a Christian, but I do not believe the Bible is the literal, inerrant word of God, and I don't believe in the traditional Christian concept of God as a "being" per se, and I certainly don't believe in the God I learned about in church growing up; an all-powerful, very large, ghostly human-like figure, with long, white flowing robes, long white hair, and a long white beard, living somewhere above the clouds, thinking, reflecting, and making decisions in reaction to events on earth and possibly elsewhere, capable of being surprised, disappointment, anger, and retribution.
I think all of that is hogwash; and I think that is the problem.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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If God isn't all powerful then he's not The God.
Jul 30, 2015, 5:58 AM
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He might be a god. Were that the case, He would not be eternal, don't you think?
The Bible I read has no description of a physical God. My God is not a physical being.
If God isn't all powerful then where is our salvation? If we have no salvation then what does it matter if we are Christian or not.
I might have not responded had you said 'burning bush,' as a physical description.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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110%er [7013]
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We need God to save us from God.***
Jul 30, 2015, 8:15 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Do I have some Good News for you.
Jul 30, 2015, 8:41 AM
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He already did, 2k years ago on a cross at Calvary.
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110%er [7013]
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He killed Himself to save us from His wrath? Cool!***
Jul 30, 2015, 8:46 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Yep, it's the most selfless act I in the ultraverse.***
Jul 30, 2015, 8:56 AM
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110%er [7013]
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That will be tough to encore.***
Jul 30, 2015, 9:30 AM
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CU Medallion [58427]
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All I can give is my opinion.
Jul 30, 2015, 9:34 AM
[ in reply to If God isn't all powerful then he's not The God. ] |
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I believe God is infinite and eternal, but not all powerful. If he were both, there would be no pain, no suffering whatsoever. I don't believe in salvation the same as most Christians, in that we either go to heaven or #### when we "die", and we need salvation to keep us from going to ####. A God that allows such a scenario is a direct contradiction to the all loving/all powerful God most Christians say they believe in.
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All-In [45784]
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Contradiction
Jul 31, 2015, 6:32 AM
[ in reply to If God isn't all powerful then he's not The God. ] |
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"The Bible I read has no description of a physical God. My God is not a physical being." So Jesus isn't God? 5 posts down
"He already did, 2k years ago on a cross at Calvary. ". So Jesus is a physical being? In answer to IE.
So which is it?
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Legend [17918]
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Part of God's plan...can't say I agree with that either
Jul 29, 2015, 10:55 PM
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God's plan is to redeem mankind through His Son Jesus Christ. The misfortune of two children who drown is not a plan; it is a consequence that rests squarely on Adam and Eve. What keeps me in check with that truth is the fact that it is a consequence that even God has submitted Himself to with His Son Jesus. God does not let us walk this painful life alone, He walks with us and has experienced it Himself.
When I shared the Lazarus account tonight, and how Jesus groaned within himself over his death, I was compelled to remind those in attendance the same that I share with you - Jesus groaned with anger at the death of His friend just as much He groaned with anguish because of the result of sins grip upon His friend - which resulted in death. God created man to be an eternal being; Adam chose otherwise. And when he did he passed his choice down to all of us. Along with all of the pain and sorrow, and ugliness of it all.
I do not offer a defense for God. I do not offer rainbows and butterflies to dress Him up either. But neither do I think that just because I live I am entitled to certain privileges, such as a pathway that avoids pain and suffering - those days are gone. They will return one day (of this I truly believe) but for now, not even God has walked a path without pain, nor do I think anyone else will until He brings these days to a close. And that is part of His plan too.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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All-In [26968]
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First paragraph nails it. Yes.
Jul 30, 2015, 7:57 AM
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I understand what people mean when they say "part of God's plan," but most of the time, it's just something people say to soothe. There's a lot more to it than some vague "plan".
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All-In [42197]
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To both HuntClub and Smiling
Jul 30, 2015, 9:34 AM
[ in reply to Part of God's plan...can't say I agree with that either ] |
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Since you said about the same thing, I'll reply to one: Although I, of course, don't agree with you due to my own personal beliefs, your answer is far better than the ones I mentioned in my previous post, and avoids the contradictory nature of what I was discussing. So for that, thumbs up for both.
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CU Guru [1147]
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i dont agree here
Jul 30, 2015, 9:29 PM
[ in reply to Part of God's plan...can't say I agree with that either ] |
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" The misfortune of two children who drown is not a plan; it is a consequence that rests squarely on Adam and Eve. "
I don't even think it had / has to do with Adam and Eve.
it is more about cause and affect.
if you cant swim and you get in deep water, and you take in water in your lungs, and you don't get it out in time, you will die from drowning or whatever is the medical term....
Adam and Eve had nothing to do with things that God set in place as basic principles of Creation.
it is like saying Adam and Eve are responsible for gravity and the reason we all cant fly.
my beliefs 101.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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God doesn't think.
Jul 30, 2015, 8:11 AM
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How can He plan? He doesn't contemplate, reason or meditate. He knows everything, therefor thinking and planning is beneath Him. It's a human concept which reflects our only frame of reference for the mind of God. I'm not sure He even has or needs a mind, I've never asked Him.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Then prayer is pointless?
Jul 30, 2015, 9:16 AM
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As would be worship.
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110%er [7013]
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Indeed.***
Jul 30, 2015, 9:34 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Re: Then prayer is pointless?
Jul 30, 2015, 9:39 AM
[ in reply to Then prayer is pointless? ] |
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No, prayer puts us in line with God's will. Worship is more like adoration to me. I don't know if I've ever worshiped God. I don't know what that means.
I know that when my soul begins to fill with the joy of who He is I describe that as adoration. I also know that when things seem out of control, especially when they don't seem to be turning out as I planned, I find comfort knowing that God knows what is going to happen, He still on the Throne of Power and He's still God.
Faith is knowing God's will is best for me. It's not begging Him to do my will. The only thing I've ever done for God was to believe Him and Trust Him. I declare He is absolutely faithful and full of truth.
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All-In [42197]
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But the prayer comes back to what I said earlier...
Jan 30, 2023, 8:00 PM
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Please note I'm not saying you're like this, but I get this a lot from other people of faith:
-Something good happens to them = God answered my prayers!
-Something bad and God didn't answer their prayers = All part of His plan for me!
I also can't stand people on Facebook who ask me to pray for their child when he has diarrhea. Sorry, just had to throw that one in there.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Re: But the prayer comes back to what I said earlier...
Jul 30, 2015, 10:15 AM
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Prayer isn't there for us to alter God's will in our lives but to adhere to and accept His will. It took me a couple of decades to reconcile my childhood beliefs to that truth.
I'm not saying I'm as was the Apostle Paul or Peter who rejoiced in being beaten and imprisoned. I've never suffered any real persecution for my beliefs but gauging my typical reaction to adversity I'd say that I would surprise myself if I rejoiced over a torn fingernail. I'm a spiritual #### for sure.
I am certainly guilty of thanking God for all the wonderful things he's given me and the blessing he's seen fit to bestow on me. I guess the only difference between me and those you're talking about is that I've matured enough to know that all the horrible things of this world are man's doings and not God's plan.
Regarding prayer for others, that my friend is another fateful story. My son along with the father of my favorite grandchild got themselves in a deep pickle that only God could deliver them from. Everything but prayer was beyond my control so I prayed. It was easy to pray for my son but the kid who'd father a child with my unwed daughter was another story. Never-the-less, I obeyed God and prayed for them both. The outcome of their circumstances was etched in stone but something magical happened. I'd prayed for someone whom I considered an enemy.
The trouble they were in was certainly his fault and it appeared he'd ruined two lives or perhaps three. Never-the-less, I considered him my enemy for the damage he'd done to my family and still I prayed for him. I prayed he'd get saved, straighten up his life and be a good husband to my daughter and a good father to my baby grand daughter. The only thing that all that prayer changed was me. I learned to love the unlovely. That's the love of The Christ, for we know that He loved us when we were yet sinners and absolutely unlovely.
Our prayer for one another changes who we are by instilling God's love for others in our souls. That's why I never wish Helll on anyone. It's the love, not my love but God's love working in me to alter who I am and make me more pleasing to Him. That's why I love Him so much. He's changed my heart in way unimaginable to the human mind, beyond reason to the human understand and unfathomable to a human heart.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: But the prayer comes back to what I said earlier...
Jul 30, 2015, 11:48 AM
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> I'm a spiritual #### for sure.
That warranted a literal LOL.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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It's the truth.
Jul 30, 2015, 12:32 PM
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God knows it and takes it easy on me, I know it and I've got it made, now you know it so the circle is complete.
Just remember this when you look for sin in my life, you won't have to look far. I've almost asked God to send me a good woman but he and I both know I'd sleep with her and mess everything up. I just don't put him or myself through it anymore. I'm weak as water.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: It's the truth.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:18 PM
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Meh, don't be so hard on yourself. Nobody is perfect.
You are honest ####, that's for sure.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Thanks,
Jul 30, 2015, 2:21 PM
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Christ set a high standard when he humbled himself before God and took on our sin. I'm the same as I was before I just have a measure of faith to behave. Sometimes it seems like I don't have enough but I never wonder whether or not God's in control and I seldom complain about how he runs his universe.
There is one error in the Bible, The Apostle Paul claimed to be the chiefest sinner. Well, he might have been before I was born but if he knew me he'd change his mind.
That's something else special about reading the Bible and being befriended by God. He gives us a good look within, we see the horrible filth there and have no alternative but to ask Him to clean house again. The more he cleans the deeper he allows us to look. I don't know if there's a depth to man's evil.
There is no pride in being a Christian. Anyone who is proud of their belief in Christ is either a liar or has forgotten exactly what it took for them to be born again. It's faith plus nothing. We're given the faith by God, all we have to do is put our faith in Him and the blood sacrifice He offered for us. The growning pains bearable because of the joy.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Thanks,
Jul 30, 2015, 2:41 PM
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Believe it or not, I think you're a cool dude, I just don't happen to share your beliefs anymore. My debating is absolutely nothing personal.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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That's sort of like what I believe.
Jul 30, 2015, 10:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: Then prayer is pointless? ] |
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God doesn't want or need to be worshipped; again, God doesn't want or need anything. God just "is". Prayer is just a way of getting closer to and strengthening the bond with God who lives within all of us. To the extent the spirit can heal, I believe prayer can be effective in that way.
I reject the idea that God "answers prayers", as if he inflicts pain and suffering on us, or allows us to experience pain and suffering, but if we put in a request in the form of a prayer, then he may consider relieving some or all of our suffering.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: God doesn't think.
Jul 30, 2015, 9:52 AM
[ in reply to God doesn't think. ] |
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But in the Bible, God clearly changes his mind sometimes, so
Exodus 32:14 "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Some versions even say "So the LORD changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people."
So clearly there is some thinking going on here...
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All-In [26968]
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Yes, Abraham interceded in prayer for Sodom
Jul 30, 2015, 9:57 AM
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And each time, he influenced what God was going to do.
There is power in prayer.
That said, God in his omniscience knew He would change His mind.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Yes, Abraham interceded in prayer for Sodom
Jul 30, 2015, 11:41 AM
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> And each time, he influenced what God was going to do. > There is power in prayer.
A man can change God's mind through prayer? I thought he had it all perfectly laid out?
> That said, God in his omniscience knew He would change His mind.
Where does it say that "he knew he would change his mind"? That is something you are saying, not what the bible said.
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All-In [26968]
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Omniscience is an attribute that God must have to be God.
Jul 30, 2015, 11:54 AM
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If He weren't omniscient, He wouldn't be God.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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So then he knew he was going to create billions of people
Jul 30, 2015, 12:53 PM
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who were always destined to be tortured for eternity. Sounds like a total ***hole. I wouldn't want to believe that God is 'morally' inferior to people. I believe that the source of all life and creation is a benevolent force, not a self-obsessed sadist.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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That's Calvanistic predermination.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:03 PM
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Most Christian religions don't believe that God predetermines people to heII, only to Heaven. I guess the realization that religion is so illogical, self contradictory, and circular forces those who believe in it makes illogical choices on what they believe, and then only follow what they feel pertains to them.
That seems like cherry picking to me, but I'm no religionist. But I tend to live in the real world, and am pretty good at spotting BS and fantasy a mile away.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Predetermination isn't the issue, it's omniscience.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:06 PM
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If he knows everything, then he would know that most people were going to Hell. It is absolutely illogical to claim that God knows everything... but he doesn't know everything.
And my "moral claim" is that if God knows that he is creating a system in which most people will eventually be burned for eternity, then he's not really a 'good' entity, by human standards.
Considering the average person would probably design a much more fair and understanding system, It's hard for me to believe that the source of all things is a petty jerk.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Of course it is.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:08 PM
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Thats where the cherry picking comes in.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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No it's not. It's omniscience.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:11 PM
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As I explained. Please show a proof as to how it's incorrect rather than just making a premise.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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omniscience=necessarily equals predetermination.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:14 PM
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As stated earlier, for god to be god he necessarily has to be omniscient. Since he is omniscient, he necessarily knows everything and the outcome of all that will happen, even factoring in free will.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Well then we are talking past one another. My point was...
Jul 30, 2015, 1:19 PM
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All Christians who say that the Bible is the Word of God must believe that God is omniscient. Not just the various forms of Christianity which subscribe to predestination. Predestination is under the umbrella of Omniscience. Those who think they reject predestination do not reject omniscience. Arguing against predestination leaves out many Christians. But arguing that a belief in omniscience requires an acknowledgment that God knew very well that he created a system in which most people would be tortured for eternity lets nobody off the hook.
Predestination is an escape hatch that many Christians erroneously use to avoid having to admit the God they believe in is an a-hole.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Once again, agreed.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:25 PM
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Cherry picking what you want to believe, and ignoring logical fallacies while doing it.
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All-In [26968]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Omniscience is an attribute that God must have to be God.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:20 PM
[ in reply to Omniscience is an attribute that God must have to be God. ] |
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> Omniscience is an attribute that God must have to be God.
I can agree with that statement. I'm just saying Bible says he is Omniscience (or at least I think it does) but it also clearly says he changes his mind.... so i'll let you interpret that however you want. You know what I think about it.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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If God already knew everything then he couldn't change his
Jul 30, 2015, 1:23 PM
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mind.
Changing someone's mind requires an altered understanding of a situation. Unless new facts, priorities or perspectives were brought to bear, it is logically impossible to have a mind changed. People need more logic.
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All-In [26968]
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That's how people change their mind.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:41 PM
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Only God can know in advance He will change His mind.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Wouldn't he already know?***
Jul 30, 2015, 1:56 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Re: God doesn't think.
Jul 30, 2015, 10:27 AM
[ in reply to Re: God doesn't think. ] |
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Repent doesn't mean change your mind. Who's ever gotten save because they changed their minds? People who get saved allow God to turn them around. Man doesn't have the power to turn himself around with such radical results. That would give the glory of one's salvation to the individual and not the savior. When it came proper time to turn back to the people, God turned back. Else is contrary to The Bible.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: God doesn't think.
Jul 30, 2015, 11:44 AM
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> Repent doesn't mean change your mind.
I disagree that the passage isn't saying he changed his mind but let's go with what you are saying:
repent: "feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin."
So God did something that warrants regret? I think that's even worse for your argument no?
So, he either does change his mind or he makes mistakes.... which is?
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Nah, He didn't feel sorry about turning his back on them...
Jul 30, 2015, 12:22 PM
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nor did he change his mind.
God knew when the people changed and turned from their horrible activities so he turned back his favor toward them according to the promise. The following is an exact example of use of repent which might clear up the presumed ambiguity.
Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Wouldn't he already know the outcome?
Jul 30, 2015, 12:35 PM
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It would seem were God truly omniscient, he would already know the outcome before any events take place. For that matter, he would already know what events would take place before they do.
This goes back to part of Catahoula's point. If God truly is as is said, then nothing that happens or will happen is unknown to him--thus he already knows and allows to happen all the evils in the world; whether that is abortion, murder or anything else you may call a sin. Your prayers and begs for mercy fall on deaf ears, as the future and the future's future is already known and predetermined.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Correct, almost perfect.
Jul 30, 2015, 12:38 PM
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Prayer does not fall on deaf ears. If you have children asking for things that are not physically, mentally or spiritually healthy you understand how God deals with a selfish prayer.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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The outcome is already known.
Jul 30, 2015, 12:40 PM
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What is the prayer doing again?
And how does God deal with selfish prayer?
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Re: The outcome is already known.
Jul 30, 2015, 2:09 PM
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Praying puts us in align with God's will. God patiently waits until we accept his will and return to it. There are exceptions but that's above my paygrade.
I explained the concept of predestination here:
http://www.tigernet.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=1464425&tstart=120
You'll have to glean the information you seek from that thread cause I'm not going over it again.
Special thanks to darealmvp.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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I got about half way through and couldn't read any more.
Jul 30, 2015, 2:32 PM
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I'm honestly not trying to be mean, but I often find I'm just brutally honest.
Seemingly all your posts in that thread are filled with cliches and parables and bibles verses, relying on the question to prove the proof. At its base is circular logic and arguments from personal incredulity--we can't understand God, so he must be real.
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Rock Defender [54]
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If they were following God's "word"
Jul 30, 2015, 8:14 AM
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They would have most likely not have:
Had premarital sex; thus rising the possibility of abortion Had a child before being able to financially support it. Been on drugs/alcohol and had sex due to inebriation.
Disclaimer: I am not claiming I did any of this, its just in absence of these things, a child isn't conceived and an abortion is not necessary.
Please do not start screaming, "well what about incest and rape". That is such a small portion that its not even worth talking about in this kind of discussion.
So in essence, if you are following the word of God, living through your bible, abortion isnt even something that you will come across and thus its never in god's plan for a child to die.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Married women never have abortions?***
Jul 30, 2015, 9:17 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Married women never have abortions?***
Jul 30, 2015, 12:20 PM
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They shouldnt if they are living by gods word. Its really that simple.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Is it stated in the bible not to have abortions?***
Jul 30, 2015, 12:36 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Many here think they are already above us mere mortals.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:10 PM
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Being closer to God and all.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Re: "It's all part of God's plan."
Jul 30, 2015, 10:58 AM
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"After all, I'm assuming they believe the aborted children are in Heaven as well, correct?"
This is why I don't understand why a Christian would have a problem with abortion. The soul goes straight to an eternity in heaven.
If it is born, the percentage chance of that is slim. Specifically, if its born in other countries/areas where Christianity is not prevalent.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: "It's all part of God's plan."
Jul 30, 2015, 11:46 AM
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Another problem with this is that it now introduces some arbitrary line in life where you are now capabale of going to hell. What I mean is, if you are a newborn and you die, presumably you go to heaven. However, at some point the bible teaches that you need to repent of your sins to go to heaven.
So when exactly is the time where you need to do that? And oh by the way, the bible says were are born sinners, so that's even more confusing. Seems like a book of this importance would be pretty clear about what needs to happen.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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I have no problem with abortion...
Jul 30, 2015, 12:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: "It's all part of God's plan." ] |
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that I don't have with the murder of other children. I wonder if most Christians feel this way. The only thing that confuses me is how some don't.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Re: I have no problem with abortion...
Jul 30, 2015, 12:31 PM
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Right....so with something so important as ETERNITY...why aren't all Christians just killing their toddlers? Do you really love your child? Cause if you really believed they had a chance at going to hell...you'd send them to heaven when you knew you could.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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If I didn't trust God I wouldn't have children.
Jul 30, 2015, 12:35 PM
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If you'd ever lost a child you'd not bring something that absurd into a conversation.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Re: If I didn't trust God I wouldn't have children.
Jul 30, 2015, 2:23 PM
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I'm not sure how its absurd based on what Christians believe.
You trust that God will what? Send your child to heaven at the age of 70 years old even if they don't accept him after their entire life? Had you killed them when they were a todler they'd be in heaven instead of hell.
Its just a question in regards to Christians way of thought....which I believe to be absurd.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Yeah, He made a promise.
Jul 30, 2015, 4:04 PM
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Every Bible promise is tried and proven.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Yeah, He made a promise.
Jul 30, 2015, 4:09 PM
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That's a pretty bold statement to make, can you back it up?
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Re: Yeah, He made a promise.
Jul 30, 2015, 6:05 PM
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Yep, I'll take a lie detector test on this one. He's kept every promise he's made to me and he's made a bunch. He taught me how to understand his word by being patient and loving to me.
There was a time in my life when I almost became one of the 'name it and claim it clan.' I also prayed for the gift of tongues, he spoke simply and quietly to me and told me 'This is not for you.'
He doesn't often speak to me plainly and clearly like that or in that manner. He probably would but I have a restless soul, it's difficult to keep myself still enough to listen to that small still voice he uses toward me.
I don't know how to prove him to you. Your best hope is to challenge him. Grab a KJV and get right in his face. Say something like, 'I'm here where the are you?' Use your own words and make sure to let him know if he's got something to say you're ready to listen.
Then read the first three chapters of the Gospel of John. It's the fourth book in the new testament. If it's just a work of fiction what difference could it possibly make? If he's not real how can it hurt?
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: Yeah, He made a promise.
Jul 30, 2015, 8:21 PM
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I don't have a KJV, will an NIV work? Serious question, because I will absolutely try this and report back to you. I've read the Bible cover to cover, and I've asked for God to give me evidence of his existence before, but not in the precise steps that you laid out here. I've yet to receive anything, but if a different formula is required, I'm willing to test it.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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I'm not really sure if two steps are precise or complicated.
Jul 31, 2015, 4:36 AM
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It just seems logical to challenge someone to show themselves and declare their identity. I reviewed the NIV and it seems like a reasonable translation though I'll stick with what I've been reading for five decades.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Yeah, He made a promise.
Jul 31, 2015, 12:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yeah, He made a promise. ] |
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Sorry, I forgot who I was asking for evidence. Nothing more than anecdotes again. I'll learn sometime I guess.
> I don't know how to prove him to you.
Is there a single other subject you can think of where this logic applies?
"Hey Bill, checkout X, it's change my life!" "Oh yeah? Tell me more about." "Well, I can't offer anything solid, just my personal experience" "Uh ok..." "You just have to reach out to X and that will take care of everything" "I uh, tried and nothing..." "Just keep at it" "..."
In my opinion, not being able to back up your claim tells me you don't really have anything. I've said it before and i'll say it again ... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
This is why science is so great, if you can't back up your claims, then they don't hold much water.
>Your best hope is to challenge him. Grab a KJV and get right in his face. Say something like, 'I'm here where the are you?' Use your own words and make sure to let him know if he's got something to say you're ready to listen.
Not sure if I ever posted to directly, but i've done this many times for many years. How many times do I need to run an experiment before I determine it doesn't work?
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Re: Yeah, He made a promise.
Jul 30, 2015, 4:13 PM
[ in reply to Yeah, He made a promise. ] |
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What about the toddlers living in homes that aren't Christian? You ok with them going straight to heaven being killed at an early age? This get's them out of there "most likely" eternity in hell. For something as long as eternity...why risk it?!
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Honestly, this is an easy fix for Christians... all they
Jul 30, 2015, 12:58 PM
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have to do is say that the power of prayer is worthless in changing God's Will. That way, they can say that God's superior understanding of what's important is difficult for unenlightened people to understand. They could say that salvation is the only real goal and that human suffering or early death are not actually bad if those who are righteous and saved get to spend eternity in paradise.
The only problem with that... the jigsaw puzzle book they all believe represents the Word of God ruins that track for them... because it says explicitly that prayer has changed God's mind. Which also logically refutes his omniscience.
The Bible is the modern Christian's biggest burden. They have to try and bend modern humanism with ancient legalism and social brutality.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Which really shows it for what it was--written laws
Jul 30, 2015, 1:06 PM
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to keep the masses in line.
Make it seem like your real punishment is coming for all eternity and not something you can see or understand, and maybe you'll scare the folks who might do something you don't like into not doing it.
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All-In [34113]
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Will you please let this thread die?
Jul 31, 2015, 12:00 PM
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I mean, ###.
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All-In [34113]
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Nice.***
Jul 31, 2015, 12:58 PM
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CU Guru [1147]
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i would tell you that i beleive the drownings
Jul 30, 2015, 9:21 PM
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were not part of "God's plan".
they were, sadly, cause and affect.
the kids drowned because of a tragedy.
comparing it to abortions is like comparing a major league baseball player hitting a homerun to stealing.
I don't like abortions but I think (not believe) it is so complicated that our Federal government should not be involved with it.
as far as selling body parts of aborted fetuses, I consider that crossing a boundary that I haven't been able to articulate or grasp to date. from a place that I don't want any part of.
people can try to justify selling parts however they wish, but - to me - it....just....
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