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Rival Killer [2834]
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Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
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Nov 3, 2024, 11:50 AM
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We are not gods chosen people, and America is a nation founded on religious freedom, not one particular religion.
If you vote based on your religious beliefs, I believe you may actually be going against the constitution and what America stands for.
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Orange Immortal [61517]
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Because it fits their chosen narrative.
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Nov 3, 2024, 12:05 PM
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I know there are all kinds of twists and leaps and dances and impositions of opinions and interpretations to explain it, but I still find it inexplicable that Christians embrace Israel while Israel rejects Christianity in favor of a religion which denies Jesus as the Son Of God and Messiah. I talked to two Christians this week who seemed confused by that, and had obviously never considered it.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Because it fits their chosen narrative.
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Nov 3, 2024, 2:41 PM
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In fairness, their interpretation of “scripture” (which is the Bible, particularly the King James Version and other English versions that spun off of the KJV) is that it points to “Israel” being reconciled to god. What exactly is meant by “Israel” seems unclear. So the unbelief of the Jews in Jesus is seen as a prophetic fulfillment of the Old Testament.
What’s interesting to me is that they seem to see a parallel between Israel and America, and believe that we should elect our leaders based on biblical principles or suffer the wrath of god like the Jews did over and over. At the same time they also seem to be the most patriotic, touting the constitution but at the same time going against its core principle of freedom.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: Because it fits their chosen narrative.
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Nov 3, 2024, 3:25 PM
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It is an interesting dichotomy.
As an Atheist long ago told me, "Heaven ain't no democracy, so why would I be interested in it?"
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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There's the real Ford.
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Nov 3, 2024, 8:36 PM
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Nothing wrong with that. But that's the real one.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 3, 2024, 9:26 PM
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What do you mean?
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 3, 2024, 10:06 PM
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Nothing earth shattering. You have said you're an agnostic. I see an atheist. That's not a criticism.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
Nov 3, 2024, 10:10 PM
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How so? I've said repeatedly that since I do not know everything regarding the universe, I cannot deny the possible existence of a God, or gods. That leaves me as an Agnostic so far as I know. Perhaps we are back to the bug-a-boo of definitions again.
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 3, 2024, 10:39 PM
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Maybe. I do know what you have said. Agreeing with the gist of this tread is something only an atheist could do, imo, which of course is anyone's right.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 3, 2024, 11:10 PM
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I simply said I found the dichotomy of a nation founded on personal freedom, and with undeniably Christian roots, to revere a nation who to this day does not accept Christ.
That's broad-brushing of course; everyone in America doesn't revere Israel. And there is a ton of history behind the formation of the nation including the Zionist movement in the 1800's.
I'm certain there's a geo-political angle to that relationship as well. I remember the TV commercials in 1990 showing an American family having a picnic with a Kuwaiti family, as we shared our 'close cultural ties' with our neighbors on the Gulf, lol. Kuwait is as American as apple pie, if you believed the commercials.
But that was propaganda to prepare a nation for war, as we rushed over to their defense over oil in the 1st Gulf War. But Israel has no critical natural resources we need to defend, so our relationship with them is somewhat different.
I do find that fascinating, so much so I'm reading Paul's take on freedom right now, and what exactly it meant to him, as opposed to what it means to us.  ">">">">">
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 4, 2024, 10:14 AM
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Sorry late responding. Things happened.
This thread was about how other people think, how they should not think and speak. After a non sequitur turn to politics, there was an outright claim that while one can privately hold a biblical value - say, that personal freedom has a spiritual basis, as stated in our Declaration - one should not encourage others to consider those same values when thinking politically.
In case that was not clear, here is what we read: A Christian, having declared himself to be one, is transgressing something by exercising his 1st Amendment freedom. You love sociology/history: think about that, and see if you want to own it.
You made positive comments to and upvoted that line of thought. So I thought I'd see how you'd respond to something as benign as "You sound like an atheist", a comment that imposes nothing on you, takes nothing away, allows you to say and be anything you want.
You didn't like it.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 4, 2024, 1:22 PM
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>You made positive comments to and upvoted that line of thought.
Well, as I thought I clarified, I upvoted the dichotomy portion of the comment, which I do find interesting; - why do people who love individual freedom and self-rule here on earth willingly give up that prospect in the Christian concept of Heaven? That interests me.
>So I thought I'd see how you'd respond to something as benign as "You sound like an atheist", a comment that imposes nothing on you...You didn't like it.
But you didn't say, "You sound like an atheist." You said:
>There's the real Ford. Nothing wrong with that. But that's the real one.
I suppose the most gracious takeaway from that comment is that we simply disagree on what the terms 'Atheist' and 'Agnostic' mean.
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 4, 2024, 2:17 PM
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I could have said it differently. Or should have. When there is a restating of history to propose that a certain class should exercise less freedoms than others, and some do not call that out but instead affirm it, I might not respond with the graciousness for which I am widely known.
What did you think of Stalin's comments about government last night?
Well, he raised an interesting point about unity.
I lose a lot of friends in how I respond to that sort of thing. And really I'm a fun and winsome guy. So my new puppy says, anyway. One of those little apartment dogs MissTulsa wanted. And we dont even have an apartment.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 4, 2024, 2:59 PM
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>lol fair enough
>What did you think of Stalin's comments about government last night? Well, he raised an interesting point about unity.
That one got a chuckle.
>When there is a restating of history to propose that a certain class should exercise less freedoms than others, and some do not call that out but instead affirm it...
Agreed. It's a failing of typed communication and multi-topic posts, and the exact reason people have to clearly identify sarcasm in sarcastic posts - there's no other way to distinguish it. Our only tool here is letters on a screen and nothing else to read intent or reaction from. We might need multiple TU check boxes for extended posts.
I probably TU more than I should, and I often TU things I disagree with as nod to a topic (or piece of a topic, in this case) that I find interesting and worth more discussion. I even TU'd a sermon posted here a couple of weeks ago where the pastor said Agnostics were far worse than Atheists. I certainly don't agree with that, or that it should be a competition, but others may and I did think the sermon was discussion-worthy to find out why.
Sounds like this was all good old-fashioned honest miscommunication to me.
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 4, 2024, 3:24 PM
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Oh look, another great topic for the board. "Who is worse?" After Atheists Or Agnostics, we can do:
Evangelicals Or Episcopalians
Muslims Or Hare Krishnas
Christians Or ... never mind, Christians always lose that one.
Infidels Or Gamecocks (a nuanced discussion)
Women Or Cats
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 4, 2024, 4:59 PM
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>Infidels Or Gamecocks
Wait. Is there a difference?
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 4, 2024, 6:53 PM
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Nuanced.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
Nov 4, 2024, 3:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: There's the real Ford. ] |
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“ When there is a restating of history to propose that a certain class should exercise less freedoms than others”
In reality what this was was a calling for a certain class of people to stop trying to impose their beliefs on the rest.
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 4, 2024, 2:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: There's the real Ford. ] |
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Being a Christian, I 'go against the constitution and what America stands for' anyway. How serious can a message board transgression really be, compared to that? Add it to the pile.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: There's the real Ford.
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Nov 4, 2024, 3:18 PM
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>Being a Christian, I 'go against the constitution and what America stands for' anyway.
Funny, I was just commenting on the need for a sarcasm meter...
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102656]
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Lol. They'd be much closer to reality comparing us to Rome.***
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Nov 3, 2024, 12:30 PM
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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I think I know this one. It's not just Israel.
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Nov 3, 2024, 8:48 PM
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The story, while about Israel, encompasses a bit more.
John Q Adams, addressing a July 4 gathering in Newburyport, MA, said it this way:
"Why is it, Friends and Fellow Citizens, that you are here assembled? ... Why is it that, next to the birth day of the Saviour of the World, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day, the 4th of July? And why is it that, among the swarming myriads of our population, thousands and tens of thousands among us, abstaining, under the dictate of religious principle, from the commemoration of that birth-day of Him, who brought life and immortality to light, yet unite with all their brethren of this community, year after year, in celebrating this, the birth-day of the nation?
Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Saviour? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation. Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity, and gave to the world the first irrevocable pledge of the fulfillment of the prophecies, announced directly from Heaven at the birth of the Saviour and predicted by the greatest of the Hebrew prophets six hundred years before?"
A few years earlier they had adopted "... endowed by their Creator ...". They understood what that meant. Some of us in this thread think they know more about the Founding than the people who were there.
So, today, some of us compare ourselves to that, not merely to Israel. This should help with your question.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: I think I know this one. It's not just Israel.
Nov 3, 2024, 9:36 PM
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A politician pandering to his base. Not much has changed…
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: I think I know this one. It's not just Israel.
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Nov 3, 2024, 9:59 PM
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In a board of non sequiturs, that's a Hall Of Famer.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: I think I know this one. It's not just Israel.
Nov 4, 2024, 10:44 AM
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I'm not sure what your point was...that some of the founding fathers were christians?
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Top TigerNet [28528]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
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Nov 3, 2024, 8:59 PM
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Not sure how voting based on your religion (or any other philosophy) would be 'going against' the constitution.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Making voting decisions based on your religion seems to be covered under free exercise of religion.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
Nov 3, 2024, 9:33 PM
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“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”
Voting based on your religious beliefs would seem to be attempting to establish your religion, especially if your beliefs impede on the rights of others.
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Top TigerNet [28528]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
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Nov 3, 2024, 10:22 PM
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No - Congress just cannot make laws regarding the establishment of religion.
That has zero to do with voting for a candidate based on your own religious ideology.
Not only that, but if it were possible to control such behavior/thought through legislation, that legislation would be unconstitutional per the 1st Amendment.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
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Nov 3, 2024, 10:42 PM
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You are not allowed your independent values. Catch up.
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Top TigerNet [28528]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
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Nov 3, 2024, 10:47 PM
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Crime Think
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
Nov 4, 2024, 8:53 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel ] |
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You’re allowed values as an individual, but voting to make the next person follow them while claiming to be a patriot seems a bit contradictory no?
For example: "I believe that abortion is wrong, because the bible teaches that life begins at conception."
That's fine. You and your wife will never be forced to go down to the clinic and make that decision. You can have all the babies you want.
What you can't do, is force someone else to make the decision you would make based on your personal values. Voting to outlaw abortion would be doing that.
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Top TigerNet [28528]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
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Nov 4, 2024, 9:54 AM
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That's basically what every law does. Example - I think the speed limit should be 65 because I believe a higher speed limit causes accidents that put people in danger. So therefore I vote for people who agree with that. Every law is ultimately values based in one form or another.
As far as abortion goes, you don't necessarily have to be religious to believe that life starts at conception or at the first heart beat. Either way, it doesn't really matter where that value comes from when you're voting.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
Nov 4, 2024, 10:43 AM
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"That's basically what every law does. Example - I think the speed limit should be 65 because I believe a higher speed limit causes accidents that put people in danger. So therefore I vote for people who agree with that. Every law is ultimately values based in one form or another."
Not even close to the same thing as there are studies that prove that accidents happen at a higher rate and are more deadly at certain speeds. Furthermore, we do not vote on speed limits, they are set by law enforcement for reasons stated.
A good example of someone's values impeding on the rights of others would be marriage. Evangelicals have this high on the list of issues. Voting to protect traditional marriage is attempting to take the right away from an individual who would prefer to marry the same sex.
For the record it is disgusting to me. The thought of two men together makes me want to puke, but I believe an individual should be able to choose who to marry free of my "values".
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Top TigerNet [28528]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
Nov 4, 2024, 10:57 AM
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I think you're having a hard time reading. I indicated voting for people who do ultimately set the speed limit.
And in the case you are describing. You just have evidence to back up your value related to speeding. Because your values could be that you do not care if people die in traffic accidents. Based on those set of values you could vote for the people who will do away with speed limits.
All laws are ultimately values based.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
Nov 4, 2024, 11:01 AM
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Nobody votes based on what a particular candidate thinks about the speed limit. So it was not a good example. Those laws are set based on data and the protection of drivers, not personal preference.
Not caring about someone dying is not a value, just like being an atheist is not a religion.
A value would be believing that marriage is ONLY between a man and a woman, and voting to have the law only recognize those types of marriages. That would prevent a citizen from marrying who they want, and therefor impede on their rights as an American.
Tell me how I'm wrong.
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Top TigerNet [28528]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
Nov 4, 2024, 11:09 AM
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Value - a person's principles or standards of behavior; one's judgment of what is important in life.
Whether or not you believe life should be protected is indeed a value.
And, all laws are ultimately based on values.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
Nov 4, 2024, 11:40 AM
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Not all values impede on the rights of others however. That is the distinction you are missing, or choosing to ignore. Hopefully when a person enters the voting booths they can make the distinction, and choose to cast those to the side when choosing who to vote for.
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Top TigerNet [28528]
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Re: Why do evangelicals compare America to the biblical Israel
Nov 4, 2024, 12:12 PM
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'Choose to cast' based on your own values.
A multitude of societal laws impede the freedoms of others.
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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One's values are no longer independent of government?
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Nov 3, 2024, 9:03 PM
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Tell us how that works.
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All-Time Great [97799]
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I've been an evangelical for half a century and have not heard that teaching.
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Nov 4, 2024, 8:22 AM
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Evangelicals liken the body of Christ, the church or rather all those who are saved to Israel before the diaspora.
America was set up to allow religions of all types to be protected. It was not founded upon Christianity, Judaism or anything other than freedom of religion. That's not to say that some of the Founding Fathers weren't Christian.
At this point I'm thinking you know about as much about the Constitution as you do Christianity. Not much.
I'm also quite set aside that you'd bring politics in this part of the forum. It's as out of place as feces in a swimming pool.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: I've been an evangelical for half a century and have not heard that teaching.
Nov 4, 2024, 9:32 AM
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You've never heard an evangelical encourage someone to vote based on "biblical principals", and claim that judgement is coming to America because of our decline in morality? The "Faith Coalition", who's goal according to their website is to "to protect christian values and keep god at the center of our country", has a voter guide to basically tell you who is the best candidate based on certain issues.
"America was set up to allow religions of all types to be protected."
And you believe the conservative evangelical community, which makes up a large portion of our country, is worried about protecting other religions and beliefs...or lack there of?
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All-Time Great [97799]
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Take the politics to the politics board.
Nov 4, 2024, 4:42 PM
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I'm not discussing politics. Imo, politics is the circus in "Bread and circus."
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Clemson Icon [25322]
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Re: I've been an evangelical for half a century and have not heard that teaching.
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Nov 4, 2024, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to I've been an evangelical for half a century and have not heard that teaching. ] |
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I'm not sure when it happened, but a tipping point occurred somewhere, when the Constitution became the assumed founding document, the statement of the values for which wealthy and powerful men are presumed to have risked and given their lives.
They didn't do that over the Constitution. We didn't even have one until almost 1800, and they didn't really like the one they created. There are few if any values in the constitution, only limitations and procedures. The values are in what is actually the founding document, the Declaration.
A valueless statement of procedure would appeal to an atheist as a founding document. That atheist would love to forget the Declaration, as this thread proposes we do. That view is not historically accurate, but culturally we have made it so. All we can count on as immutable is the Truth stated by the Declaration, not that document itself. That value is cyclically followed and discounted in human government, usually the latter, and we live in those lost battles. But it has already won the war.
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