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Ridiculous things like this in the bible
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Replies: 37
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Ridiculous things like this in the bible
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Dec 19, 2024, 9:42 AM
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make it extremely hard to believe.
"When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God."
So what was the man supposed to do, let the Ark fall to the ground?
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Orange Immortal [65271]
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If I think something is ridiculous
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Dec 19, 2024, 9:45 AM
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I just ignore it. You seem to read the Bible a ton, but still think it’s ridiculous.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: If I think something is ridiculous
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Dec 19, 2024, 9:54 AM
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So you think this man deserved death? Or you don't believe this really happened? How do you continue to believe in a god that would do this?
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Clemson Conqueror [11381]
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Re: If I think something is ridiculous
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Dec 19, 2024, 10:30 AM
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Reading between the lines. He said he doesn't really read it. He doesn't know about it, but he still believes in the basics of the Bible nonetheless.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Just my opinion, but it's clear to me that what we have as The Bible are
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Dec 19, 2024, 10:25 AM
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writings of people which reflect their experience and beliefs, shaped by the limitations of their knowledge and ability to understand and explain. I'm sure much of it was indeed inspired in the sense that the writers had some type of sincere experience or existence that we would call spritual. I also think much of it reflects biases and less than honest motives of either the original writers or those who changed it and shaped it over time.
This particular passage, as does most of the Old Testament, tells of a warring God who responds with fits of rage when things don't go as he wants. I just think that's a reflection of how men experienced and understood poweful rulers at that time.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Just my opinion, but it's clear to me that what we have as The Bible are
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Dec 19, 2024, 10:32 AM
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Just like the questions I asked tigermaniac, I wonder did the original writer really believe this happened? And if he did, how could he be ok with this?
It just blows my mind.
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Just my opinion, but it's clear to me that what we have as The Bible are
Dec 19, 2024, 2:35 PM
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I don't doubt that he did believe it, and attributed it to God.
Maybe it was the direct touch of God, maybe it was a coincidental lightning strike while they were moving the Ark, or maybe it was God directing some otherwise randomly-created lightning during a storm. Who knows.
But whoever saw it said, "That's God at work."
It does show the reality, the harshness, and the expectations of the time though. Not a whole lot of mercy or democratic values to be found back then. People do love themselves and alpha dog. That's the story of history...Kings and dictators. The Jews screamed to give up what autonomy they had under the Judges, presumably for the 'protection' a King brought them.
A pivotal point in my understanding of man came in the 1980's when Russians-on-the-street were asked, "If you could have any leader back, who would you take? They didn't pick Catherine, or Ivan, or Nicholas...90% of them chose Stalin. Never mind that he probably killed half of their families in gulags or purges...to them, he was a "strong man."
Just walk around a farm some time...chickens have a pecking order. Or a kennel; every dog know the 'Top Dog." Or apes at the zoo...everyone deigns to the Silverback. And the ultimate Top Dog, of course, is the celestial one, or ones. We're not so different than chickens, dogs, or apes.
Most people, when presented with a show of force, or what is perceived to be a show of force, lay down and take it. So if a guy drops dead at the exact moment he touches a sacred wagon, that's perceived as a show of force, and people take note.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Just my opinion, but it's clear to me that what we have as The Bible are
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Dec 19, 2024, 3:37 PM
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Or maybe he just had a heart attack. Back then before medical advamcments they had no idea why someone would just drop dead.
But yea I get your point. I think we seem to be growing out of that mentality though as knowledge is more widespread. Stupidity is a dictators best friend.
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Clemson Conqueror [11672]
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And some of the authors and subjects of OT books were whackos.
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Dec 19, 2024, 10:44 AM
[ in reply to Just my opinion, but it's clear to me that what we have as The Bible are ] |
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I’m looking at you minor prophets.
If these people walked the earth today they’d be as poorly regarded as the screaming’ preacher that used to show up at the amphitheater calling students hoe-ers, fornicators, and evil mast urbators!!
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: And some of the authors and subjects of OT books were whackos.
Dec 19, 2024, 2:06 PM
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I remember the Harcombe preacher. That guy was great! In my time he had a Casio watch, I believe, which played a little electronic version of "When the Saints Come Marching In."
He'd crank it up, lift his fist above his head, and march around in the sunken court beside Harcombe.
I'm not sure if his means helped promote his message or not, but I admired his conviction, and his entertainment value. He certainly drew a crowd, and that's half the battle when you're trying to spread a message in person.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98419]
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There is a history behind that story which is found in the Mosaic Covenant.
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Dec 21, 2024, 6:44 AM
[ in reply to Just my opinion, but it's clear to me that what we have as The Bible are ] |
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When the Hebrews left Egypt there were about 600,000 men on foot and that doesn't include the women and children. Estimates of a million then are believable.
The promises of God to Abraham, father of the nation, was for a land. These Hebrews knew the story and even Joseph, the first to be carried to Egypt remembered and believed the promise for he instructed his children to carry his bones back to the promised land.
They left with over a half a million men of war, returning to a land which God promised them through Abraham but they were a nation without laws governing them. They well understood that as a people they would not remain united and be able to keep the land without laws binding them together. I reckon God knew that too.
They sought the law and God gave them what they wanted but more so what they needed to be a union. They told God they would do whatever He said and in return He made promises to them. It was a covenant, a contract which bound them to God and God to them.
God promised health, wealth, security and growth as a people and the land if they kept their end of the bargain and also promised the very opposite of those if they violated their contract. It's as simple as a home mortgage. Pay the bank and live in the home; don't pay the bank and your time living there is lost.
God was harsh at times when it became obvious that Israel 'went whoring after other Gods.' He dealt with Israel's enemies harshly when they attacked Israel in fulfillment of His promise.
To me, the concept of a god and his people being exactly like Israel and their God is easily believed. The OT reads, to me, as if it was concocted by man. When Israel violated the agreement God responded exactly like He promised, it's all there in the book. You know I can provide reference for everything I'm saying here.
The New Testament is quite different. Man has no frame of reference to help understand a loving God who took on the body of a man and gave Himself as a sacrifice to fulfill human obligation(s) to a contract sworn to by Israel some 4,000 years ago. That part eluded me until God spoke to my heart making me realize Christ is the only way.
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110%er [3765]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
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Dec 19, 2024, 3:05 PM
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Have you prayed and asked God to bring clarity to this for you? Seems if you were truly seeking to understand you'd start there instead of TNET.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
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Dec 19, 2024, 3:39 PM
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If you see him let me know. Yes I would love to ask directly. He showed himself to Moses and 70 other Israelites. Had wine and bread with them. Maybe he can meet me at the bar for wings and beer.
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110%er [3765]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 20, 2024, 3:27 PM
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Come on, Dog. I suggest you pray for clarity over Scripture that has you perplexed and you suggest God should meet you for beer and wings? You're better than that.
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CU Medallion [19523]
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I can tell you went wrong here, if you will listen...
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Dec 19, 2024, 7:52 PM
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God had given specific instructions on how the ark of the covenant was to be handled. One of the very specific instructions dealt with how the ark was to be moved/transported - Never by hand and Always and Only by carrying it with the staff/rods used through the inserts.
When the moment to move the ark came, someone decided it would be "OK" to do it the easier way, by placing it on a cart pulled by oxen. The ark would never have been in position to tumble to the ground if it had been handled in the manner instructed. Uzzah's shock and response was the normal thing - what anyone might do because they find themselves in that position through ignorance and/or total disregard for doing "things" the right way - no matter how inconvenient it may be. Uzzah quickly discovered he was wrong.... he paid the price for changing what God had instructed.
What a sad day it will be for those who have handled His Son, Jesus, with the same disregard.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: I can tell you went wrong here, if you will listen...
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Dec 19, 2024, 9:15 PM
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You are correct Hunt. Did a little more research and it seems this was really David’s fault for not having the ark carried correctly however the punishment of death seems a little bit harsh no?
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CU Medallion [19523]
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Re: I can tell you went wrong here, if you will listen...
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Dec 19, 2024, 9:35 PM
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God did not necessarily "punish" him. God placed a restriction, just as He did in the Garden of Eden. God does not wish for His creation to suffer, but it can when He gives access to things people do not how to handle. For example - an "apple", or an "ark". He gives restrictions not to limit people, and certainly not to keep people down. He gives restrictions to prevent the disasters that come when one is walking "unknown paths".
As a side note, this is a prime example of how one who should know better instructs, or allows, others to do otherwise. How many souls have been lost because someone acted without care for the dangers involved?
However, punishment can come when one does things like Nadab and Abihu... offering profane fire in the Temple.
What went wrong in these two circumstances? That is the question to begin with.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: I can tell you went wrong here, if you will listen...
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Dec 20, 2024, 2:20 PM
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There's still a road block here...
A man died for doing something that wasn't his fault, and even if it was, did not deserve death. No amount of study or prayer is going to change my mind on that.
Me and you both are experiencing the same world. Surely you would not disagree with me that a petty accident like the one described here would not be worthy of death in our society.
What am I missing here?
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CU Medallion [19523]
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Re: I can tell you went wrong here, if you will listen...
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Dec 20, 2024, 5:49 PM
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Do you believe in the Laws of Physics... such as, what goes up must come down?
Sure, he was a man doing what he was told... but he was also a man who was, or should have been, familiar with the instructions of God. That is not a "petty" issue to me. To think of it as petty also reveals another issue that you have - you feel you should be able to dictate what you do, how you can do it, and no matter what the consequence - there shouldn't be any. Only because you don't think there should be.
I'm not trying to be ugly with that statement. Just pointing out that you could easily be that same man in a similar situation because you do not give God His due respect.
It will not be His fault should that happen. It will be yours. No matter how much you try to deflect your responsibility in the matter.
Please, though, keep those moments limited to you so you don't hurt others too.
A far as it being in "our" society, God does not "evolve" to meet our societal expectations. Therein lies a significant hurdle for far too many in today's world.
And, too, don't forget there is a difference between coincidental consequences and punishment.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98419]
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It was in the covenant, the contract both God and Israel swore to obey.
Dec 21, 2024, 6:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: I can tell you went wrong here, if you will listen... ] |
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If you sign a contract and fail to hold your end of the agreement there are consequences and repercussions! Think Life, the movie, Eddie Murphy and the cornbread gif.
God is faithful and always proved that by keeping His obligation to Israel. How could they expect God to not keep His promise that anyone unqualified to touch the Ark would die if they touched it?
Think, daddy and the first car he gave you. 'Son, here's your car but if you drive like a maniac I'm going to take it away.' Now think how serious he was about keeping that promise.
You need to quit reading the Bible if you're going to maintain your status here as the Bible dumper. I don't care who you are, what history you have with God or what your attitude toward Him, Christians in general or anything else is: If you keep reading the Bible it will change your life.
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Oculus Spirit [41698]
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
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Dec 19, 2024, 11:19 PM
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The account itself seems to say that the answer to your question is 'Yes'. If God says dont worry about it, dont worry about it. It was not their Ark.
The worst things done are not done with bad intent, but with good intent in places where one doesnt belong; ie, arrogance. Why would God use an object lesson like that to illustrate the point? That is another separate discussion. But sure, having made the mistake that put it in that position, let it fall if that is what He said. We can assume He would survive. Which might have been the point.
Maybe it sounds ridiculous because we all tend to assume that right and wrong is only for us to decide. Your question could be a version of "Did God really say ...", the question at the beginning that led to everything else. That one was not a question for understanding, but to rebel, and to lead others to the same.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 20, 2024, 8:47 AM
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“ Maybe it sounds ridiculous because we all tend to assume that right and wrong is only for us to decide. ”
Who else decides it?
If I was given a brain, then clearly that person wanted me to use it to decipher things like right and wrong, good and bad, no?
Are you gonna kill someone for touching your stuff? Surely not.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 20, 2024, 10:03 AM
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We all ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Few regret it. Fear of the Lord may be the beginning of wisdom, but we dont want wisdom; we want to arbitrate it.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 20, 2024, 2:13 PM
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I never ate from such a tree. What's odd is in Genesis god says to satan "they are now like us and must die". Explain that one...
If folks are being tortured for eternity I want to be down there with them. I've always been a man of the people.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 20, 2024, 3:42 PM
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As I said, few regret it.
Cant explain what that comment means; it is not in Genesis or anywhere.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 20, 2024, 4:00 PM
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Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 20, 2024, 7:32 PM
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Glad you found it. You corrected your misquote of the second phrase, but still left His audience misstated. Nevertheless, the actual wording should help answer your question.
As He directed in that comment, we do not understand the nature, origin or production of life. We understand biology down to the molecular level - been issuing PhD's in microbiology all over the world for a long time - but have no clue what life is.
I agree this is an interesting passage. Understand it, and I think the ark thing becomes more clear.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 20, 2024, 10:52 PM
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"they are now like us and must die"
“The man has now become like one of us,…….He must not be allowed to……live forever.”
Where lies the difference?
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 20, 2024, 11:02 PM
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I was wrong. Okay. You haven't considered your earlier misstated audience.
Who was He talking to?
What had He said earlier?
How might this explain what has just happened?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 21, 2024, 10:19 AM
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It sounds like he’s talking to the serpent but I could be wrong.
There are only 4 characters present here. God, Adam, Eve, and the serpent.
He can’t be taking to Adam or Eve, because he is talking about them. That only leaves one option.
Now, you can say well Jesus was present from the beginning so he must have been taking to him, but that’s reading something into the text that isn’t there.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Ridiculous things like this in the bible
Dec 21, 2024, 11:33 AM
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Continue.
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Campus Hero [13647]
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Lets list the passages that arent hard to believe by you and go from there
Dec 19, 2024, 11:29 PM
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Maybe there will be some clarity from those passages to make these make sense. IDunnO
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Lets list the passages that arent hard to believe by you and go from there
Dec 20, 2024, 8:49 AM
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Have you ever sat down and actually read the Bible yourself. Book for book, beginning to end?
Do that and weird things will be all over the place. Most people read the Bible filtered through study material that skips over all the strange hard to comprehend stuff.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98419]
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Re: Lets list the passages that arent hard to believe by you and go from there
Dec 21, 2024, 7:15 AM
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I do, I read 20-50 verses from Psalms 119 every day then 3 other chapters of Psalms, then three chapters of the OT and three of the NT daily. By my estimation I'm reading the entire Bible once about every 9 months.
I have found that to be the best way. I'd rather read one chapter from the OT, one from Psalms and one from the NT than try to read start to finish./ There are multiple advantages the most important, in my opinion, is that I am starting to appreciate the preaching of Christ in the NT and the apostles letters to the first Church.
One thing I've noticed regularly is that the men of renown, including those who wrote the OT and the leaders of other nations kept scribes to record their personal history. When Israel was conquered, attacked or warring the scribes recorded both failures and successes. I don't believe that was common practice and I believe the OT prophets wrote much of the histories. They always recorded the times of death of the Kings who ruled during their lifetimes.
I recently considered that it's possible the deaths of all those leaders might have been the point where the scribes could write what actually happened rather than what the kings wanted them to write. They were all certainly men of God and perhaps Johan was the only one to disobey God and even then he honored God with the truth about himself.
So yeah, I've actually read the Bible. I'm a student. I consider it one of my top three greatest luxuries.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98419]
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: There's a novel idea.***
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Dec 21, 2024, 10:12 AM
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Just like any other historical document, the parts of the Bible that are not miraculous or divine are believable.
If you read about anything like that anywhere else I’m sure you approach it with skepticism. Why is it different for the Bible?
Because you start with the belief that it is 100% true. You didn’t read it and then decide that.
Like our friend CUintulsa® likes to point out, it’s all about your starting premise.
If you start with the belief that Jesus is everything evangelical Christianity makes him out to be, that’s what the Bible is going to say to you.
Same thing for the Koran. If I start with the belief that Muhammad is gods messenger and he really had a vision from Allah in that cave, then I’m going to believe everything in it is gods word.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: There's a novel idea.***
Dec 22, 2024, 8:37 AM
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You are progressing well, Grasshoppa.
But the beginning assumption is not about Jesus. He is the conclusion you seek. Your assumption is about God. If He does not exist, nothing supernatural can occur, the Bible is a myth. If God does exist, or could exist, the supernatural claim of the NT, the resurrection of Jesus, could have occurred. What you want to know is which it was, yes or no. This is not a philosophical question.
You claim to have decided 'no', yet come here to say so in many different ways. The desire to say it seems strong. The fact that others know Jesus as Messiah remains an interesting subject for you. All this is a good thing.
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