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Commissioner [1298]
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Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 7:03 AM
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There have been years during BB's tenure at CU you could have made a case for making a change. The last 2 years however are NOT ! If anyone believes that we are going to improve upon 20 win seasons for Clemson basketball you DELUSIONAL ! I know I will get flamed by calling me a coot, a mediocre accepting fan etc. so flame away if you like. Take a long look at our basketball history. Twenty wins are EXCEPTIONAL for Clemson and not the norm. 23 wins last year and 21 so far this year are good solid years. We will never be Duke or UNC consistently in basketball just like they will never be Clemson consistently in football. Enjoy our 20 win seasons and SHUT UP !! It is very difficult to attract 5 star basketball players at a small town rural college. They tend to prefer an urban area. BB runs an exemplary program and is consistently winning in what is still ( despite the wrong narrative) in a tough basketball conference. And BTW if you think Clemson would win championships in the SEC you are also delusional. We would compete and win no doubt but we would not win championships like we have or will continue to do in the ACC.
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Commissioner [1298]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 7:05 AM
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I meant fb championships in that last part.
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Rival Killer [2896]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 12:46 PM
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Don't worry; no one read that far.
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Clemson Sports Icon [56236]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 7:27 AM
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For the most part I agree with you. 20+ wins in basketball is very good for Clemson, but for me it's the losses that irk my soul. The loss against ND this year really hurt our momentum. We had other losses, but the ND loss was a dagger. We may not recover from the way the regular season ended. When you finish poorly, you finish poorly. Because of the loss to ND, I expect we'll be well rested when the NCAA tournament gets here.
As far as football... we would not win as many conference championships, but we would still win one every few years. It is definitely a tough football conference.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:30 AM
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See Louisville, February 18, 2023.
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Tiger Spirit [9768]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:31 AM
[ in reply to Re: Delusional fans ] |
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Mr. Pig, how do you think Houston fans feel about losing to TCU who lost us. There are 4 ranked teams with less than 6 losses and most have 7 or more so losing a game is simple going to happen. It is the games won that are what makes basketball fun.
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Redshirt [90]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 10:24 AM
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I'm not sure how Houston's fans feel about their worst loss (of 3 total losses) to TCU, which currently classifies as a Quad 1 loss, is the right comparison to how Clemson fans feel about losing to 3 Quad 2 teams and 2 Quad 3 teams.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Delusional fans
Mar 11, 2024, 10:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: Delusional fans ] |
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One good thing about this year: we don't have any Quad 4 losses, vs 3 of them last year, and only 2 Quad 3 losses. Only one team above Clemson in the NET rankings has 2 Quad 3 losses (St Mary's).
Since you brough it up, let's look at Houston's line
Quad 1 2 3 4
13-3 4-0 4-0 7-0
Or Auburn's
1-7 9-0 9-0 5-0
Or San Diego State's
3-9 7-0 4-0 6-0
Or Clemson's
5-5 5-3 6-2 5-0
The top 16 teams combined have 2 total Quad 3 losses (Arizona 8-1 Q3, and Illinois 7-1 Q3). All of the 25 teams above Clemson in the NET have a combined 7 Q3 losses (including the 2 St Mary's has). Clemson has 2.
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Starter [273]
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Re: Delusional fans
Mar 11, 2024, 11:15 AM
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Outside of Houston, Clemson's line stacks up favorably. 5 Q1 wins is very solid. That's more than 8 teams ahead of them, clearly including Auburn and SDSU.
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All-In [11066]
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The ND loss is nothing like the Louisville loss last year. ND has been playing
Mar 11, 2024, 10:05 AM
[ in reply to Re: Delusional fans ] |
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well recently and had won 5 of their last 6, after beating us!
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Rival Killer [3084]
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This is the best take
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Mar 11, 2024, 7:31 AM
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I have seen on this board. Bravo for having the courage to deliver some truth to the Lunatic Fringe.
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Oculus Spirit [40445]
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Of course because you can only see one side.
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Mar 11, 2024, 8:10 AM
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3 NCAATs out of 13 is not good.
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Starter [273]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: Of course because you can only see one side.
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Mar 11, 2024, 12:13 PM
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Correct, but I do think there were a couple seasons, in my biased opinion, that Clemson should have made the tournament: 2013-2014 (23-13, 10-8) and 2022-2023 (23-11, 14-6). I think 2018-2019 (20-14, 9-9) is also in the mix. If he makes it one of those seasons, it's 4 out of 13, which still shouldn't be the goal. That being said, Clemson has made the tournament 13 times since 1979 (expanded field) which equates to a 30% make percentage. That 4 out of 13 is right is inline. 4 out of 14 is 28.5%, which puts it in the historical make percentage of Clemson basketball.
Now, I think the goal should be higher, but that's based on how I want Clemson basketball to do. How to get there is clearly more than a coach, or if it is the coach, how do you get said coach to remain at Clemson and not bolt (Ellis, Barnes, Purnell)? There's clearly something systemic that has prevented these coaches from remaining at Clemson. That has to be fixed before expectations are increased to say 50% of the time making the NCAAT.
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CU Medallion [20979]
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Shoulda, coulda, didn't.***
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Mar 11, 2024, 11:21 PM
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Paw Master [17252]
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Re: Of course because you can only see one side.
Mar 12, 2024, 1:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Of course because you can only see one side. ] |
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Your numbers aren’t even right. The field expanded to 32 in 1975 and 64 in 1985. Since the 64 team expansion Brownell is worse than anyone coach other than Shyatt at making the tournament. If you measure the state of the program or strength of schedules those other coaches dealt with, the comparison become abysmal.
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CU Guru [1209]
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Orange Immortal [67574]
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Paw Master [17252]
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Orange Immortal [67574]
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I am constantly amazed by the number of "Clemson fans" who...
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Mar 11, 2024, 11:06 AM
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don't want or expect more from the men's basketball program. On his best day, CBB is an average coach and Clemson deserves better.
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Game Day Hero [4380]
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Re: This is the best take
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Mar 11, 2024, 10:44 AM
[ in reply to This is the best take ] |
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I knew you were ####### crazy but how delusional do you have to be to have a conversation with yourself?
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: This is the best take
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Mar 11, 2024, 11:03 AM
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That's the primary purpose of socks.
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Paw Master [17252]
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Re: This is the best take
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Mar 11, 2024, 1:38 PM
[ in reply to This is the best take ] |
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Hey JStone/Cobbox - what's it like to have a failing grade at Tnetting? or did you grow up believing a "D" was a passing grade?
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Hall of Famer [8261]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 7:35 AM
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I would have fired him a long time ago, but I wouldn't after this season. With the portal and and the improvement I have seen over the lastv2 seasons, I am intrigued about what CBB can do in the future.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 10:11 AM
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That's what we all probably thought after the Sweet 16 run 7 seasons ago, too.
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CU Medallion [18413]
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Re: Delusional fans
Mar 11, 2024, 7:43 PM
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Including the AD. Brad got a nice fat raise and extension after that one, only to immediately regress back to the norm after.
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Top TigerNet [32374]
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i agree
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Mar 11, 2024, 8:04 AM
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Twenty wins are EXCEPTIONAL-ly better than 10.
The rest of your post is nonsense
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: i agree
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:26 AM
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Looking at the NCAA NET official website, currently 71 teams have 20 or more wins. Out of 362 teams.
One in five teams is at 20+ wins. Is that REALLY exceptional? Or just a little bit better than most?
Heck, JMU has 29 wins already. Are they an exceptional team? NET says they're #55.
Clemson has played 13 games against Quad 3 and 4 teams, and lost two of those. 11 wins against Quad 3 (6-2) and Quad 4 (5-0) is more than half of the 21 wins we currently have.
Maybe we can schedule more Quad 4 teams and get that up to 25 wins in regular season? Nah, we tried that last year and lost 3 of those Quad 4 games.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: i agree
Mar 11, 2024, 9:38 AM
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Another 31 teams are sitting on 19 wins and most of them have chances to pick up one more in their respective conference tournaments.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: i agree
Mar 11, 2024, 10:24 AM
[ in reply to Re: i agree ] |
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Here's some of the EXCEPTIONAL teams with 20+ wins...and their NET rankings. I see Morehead State in there! Do we think Little Rock is on the bubble with 21 wins?
71 Richmond 23-8
72 App State 25-6
73 UC Irvine 23-8
74 Samford 26-5
78 South Fla. 23-6
83 Massachusetts 20-10
84 Loyola Chicago 22-8
88 Cornell 20-6
90 Ole Miss 20-11
100 Col. of Charleston 24-7
103 Vermont 24-6
106 Morehead St. 22-8
110 High Point 23-8
128 Toledo 20-11
129 Oakland 21-11
131 Colgate 23-9
137 Tarleton St. 20-8
168 Quinnipiac 22-8
182 Little Rock 21-12
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Scout Team [176]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: i agree
Mar 11, 2024, 11:04 AM
[ in reply to Re: i agree ] |
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What we tried last year was correct. Unfortunately those teams grossly underperformed. There is a little bit of a crapshoot element involved.
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Orange Immortal [67574]
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I wholeheartedly disagree...
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Mar 11, 2024, 8:27 AM
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His pattern of losing multiple games each year that he shouldn't, is more than reason enough to seriously consider making a change.
While I realize it's unlikely to happen, but after fourteen seasons with CBB at the helm, we know exactly what we're going to get, and far too many people (particularly in the Athletic Department) are content with mediocre and inconsistent results.
LOL..."win championships like we have or will continue to do in the ACC"...lol. What are these championships of which you speak?
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Starter [273]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Every team loses games they shouldn't
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Mar 11, 2024, 8:36 AM
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This is the nature of college basketball, which is why the NCAAT is a terrible format. Most of the top teams, outside of the super elite, will have head-scratching losses every year. When you look in that 20-40 range of teams, which Clemson is squarely in, there will be those kinds of losses by every team.
It's also disingenuous to not look at the totality of the circumstances when looking at those losses. Take ND. It was on the road playing against a team that had won 5 out of 6 (I believe), who gained tremendous experience throughout the course of the season, while Clemson was limping in, literally, and missing Jack Clark who has been the glue guy (no disrespect to Schef). -Comma splices and terrible sentence intentional
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Orange Immortal [67574]
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Yes, and if it was just one or two it wouldn't be that big of a deal...
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Mar 11, 2024, 8:38 AM
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but this year alone, there are at least five. Same thing last year.
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Paw Master [17252]
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Re: Every team loses games they shouldn't
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:02 AM
[ in reply to Every team loses games they shouldn't ] |
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Why was our team unable to equally “gain tremendous experience” to maintain the clear advantage it held over ND? Why does Brad lose as a favorite more than all but 3-4 programs in the ACC whether you look since 2010, 2017, or this season? Why is our bench so thin and undeveloped that a single transfer player (no Jack Clark wasn’t actual the “glue guy” of this team and he literally shut the door on the WF game by throwing up an insanely stupid 3 pointer with 53 seconds left but I’ll indulge your fantasy that reveals you know nothing about this team) is the difference between winning or losing against a Q3 opponent like ND?
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Orange Immortal [67574]
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The problem is, it wasn't just the Notre Dame game.***
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:16 AM
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: The problem is, it wasn't just the Notre Dame game.***
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:54 AM
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Indeed, we blew large, late 2nd-half leads 3 times midseason?
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Every team loses games they shouldn't
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:17 AM
[ in reply to Every team loses games they shouldn't ] |
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WFU had lost 3 in a row.
Winning on the road can't be THAT hard...nearly half of all ACC visiting teams left Littlejohn with a win. Clemson was 6-4 at home.
No way Clark, who barely played half the season, is the "glue guy". I appreciate his defense and the few points he chips in, but c'mon.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Every team loses games they shouldn't
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:17 AM
[ in reply to Every team loses games they shouldn't ] |
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"who gained tremendous experience throughout the course of the season"
Didn't Clemson also play a full season, why did they not gain tremendous experience?
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Game Day Hero [4380]
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Re: Every team loses games they shouldn't
Mar 11, 2024, 10:46 AM
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Coaching?
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Starter [273]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: Every team loses games they shouldn't
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Mar 11, 2024, 10:53 AM
[ in reply to Re: Every team loses games they shouldn't ] |
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I'm going to try to consolidate some responses.
-ND was extremely young entering the season. They would see a greater jump in experience throughout the season. You hear it all the time with the football team. By the end of the season, the true freshman aren't freshman anymore.
-Why didn't Clemson improve? I think some guys are at their ceilings. PJ is who PJ is. He can be great, but he's prone to silly mistakes. No matter how hard someone is coached, a player sometimes just can't improve beyond his capabilities. That's not a knock on PJ. He's reached his ceiling, which is undoubtedly high, but it isn't all-time great high.
-20 wins with Clemson's non-conference plus the ACC is impressive. Put Clemson in the CAA, and what do you think the record would be? I would imagine Clemson wouldn't be worse than C of C who went 15-3. Let's say Clemson went 15-3 plus 10-1 non-conference would equal 25-4. App State went 16-2 in the Sun Belt. I would say Clemson would match that, so you would be looking at 26-3 regular season. It's not the 20 wins, it's the non-conference plus the ACC.
-BigCUFan® You say there are 5 head-scratching losses. Name them and let's look at them.
-@vviztiz® There was a tweet by a college basketball analytics company that showed Clemson's best five, which includes Clark, is the 5th best lineup in college basketball. You can deny his impact and somehow blame the Wake loss on him, but it shows your ignorance.
-mpercy® Just because someone doesn't stuff the stat sheet doesn't mean he isn't the glue guy. You've got reasonable takes, unlike viz, so we can agree to disagree here. That doesn't mean I'm wrong, though (or right).
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Every team loses games they shouldn't
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Mar 11, 2024, 11:09 AM
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I'll grant that we're certainly better with Clark than without him; with him we probably win ND.
But there's no way I'd ever stick the "glue guy" label on him. He's not Hunter Tyson, a prime example of a Clemson "glue guy" if there ever was one.
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Paw Master [17252]
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Re: Every team loses games they shouldn't
Mar 11, 2024, 2:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Every team loses games they shouldn't ] |
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So, with Clark we're the 5th best lineup in college basketball but can't beat Wake Forest with the 5th best lineup. Keep spinning yourself in circles and pretend it's the others who are ignorant.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: I wholeheartedly disagree...
Mar 11, 2024, 9:42 AM
[ in reply to I wholeheartedly disagree... ] |
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I think he was trying to make a JK-like backhanded insult to the football team.
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Commissioner [978]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 8:33 AM
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I agree there is no way CBB gets fired after this year. He probably gets a raise. However, it will be interesting to see what we have next year when he loses 4 starters. I think next year is a rebuild and when the wheels fall off. Then after 15 years, has he done enough over these last two years to have a bad year and still remain?
Might depend on how this year ends up, but this was his year that everything with the roster fell into place. And he's had some really good wins but also a bunch of losses to teams with less talent where the team looks undisciplined on offense and doesn't take advantage where they have an advantage.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:13 AM
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After the Sweet 16 season, Brownell's previous "best team ever", the following years looked like
2017–18 Clemson 25–10 11–7 T–3rd NCAA Division I Sweet 16
2018–19 Clemson 20–14 9–9 T–8th NIT Second Round
2019–20 Clemson 16–15 9–11 9th Postseason Cancelled
2020–21 Clemson 16–8 10–6 T–5th NCAA Division I Round of 64
2021–22 Clemson 17–16 8–12 10th (no postseason)
Virtually no momentum.
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Walk-On [70]
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Re: Delusional fans
Mar 11, 2024, 3:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: Delusional fans ] |
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If we fire the coach how many players does Clemson lose beside the 4 starters or does most of the players stay?
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Orange Immortal [61527]
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He should have been replaced long ago, at several points.
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Mar 11, 2024, 8:49 AM
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But, he sure as heck won't be canned this year, nor should he be.
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TigerNet Legend [145412]
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"It is very difficult to attract 5 star basketball players at a small town...
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Mar 11, 2024, 8:49 AM
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rural college."
Agreed. College basketball players historically prefer more populated states with less of a rural feel, like Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina and Kansas.
*Credit to mpercy
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Orange Blooded [2418]
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Yes
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:07 AM
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If only clemson were more of an urban environment, then basketball players would be more likely to matriculate. GREAT TAKE. Just shows what a smart place this post comes from.
I mean there are about 100 teams that have won 20 games so far, which means brad has his team solidly in the upper half of d1. Imagine what he could do in an urban hub like chapel hill with the type of player those environments attract. He could probably field a quad 2 team and win 20 games every year! Brilliant!
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Paw Master [17252]
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Re: Yes
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Mar 11, 2024, 1:22 PM
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yet many self-professed basketball fans on here think 20 wins should be an automatic qualifier for the NCAA tournament field of 68. It shows the basketball iq that we're dealing with.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Top TigerNet [31501]
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Re: "It is very difficult to attract 5 star basketball players at a small town...
Mar 11, 2024, 1:16 PM
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Don't forget Chapel Hill.
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TigerNet Legend [145412]
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Paw Master [17252]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 8:55 AM
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If the best we can do, in your opinion, is count regular season wins and never win anything of substance , why do you care if we try something different?
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:08 AM
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"It is very difficult to attract 5 star basketball players at a small town rural college. They tend to prefer an urban area."
Seems racist somehow.
And a lot of successful programs are NOT located in urban areas, larger than Clemson sure, but not "urban". For example, Chapel Hill. Also, a lot of much much smaller schools have a lot more success. Gonzaga has fewer than 5000 undergrads.
Since Brownell took over at Clemson, Butler has been to the final 4 twice. Schools that are not traditional powers, like West Virginia, VCU, Wichita State, Oklahoma, SCAR, Oregon, Wisconsin (twice), Loyola-Chicago (Brownell's nemesis from 2022), Texas Tech, Miami, San Diego State, even Florida Atlantic have ALL made a Final Four since Brownell took over at Clemson.
Is it REALLY too much to ask that Clemson at least TRY to be as good--just once--as San Diego State, Florida Atlantic, and Wichita State? Or maybe, just maybe, match the output of some other "football schools" like Wisconsin and Oklahoma?
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Orange Blooded [2418]
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Whoa Whoa Whoa
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:22 AM
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There's nothing racist about 20 wins ok? 20 wins mpercy! If Brad were drawing from the kind of urban talent available in, say, Lawrence, Kansas, he'd probably be winning 20 games every single year! Nothing racist about that right there!
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All-In [11066]
TigerPulse: 100%
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"Seems racist somehow"? Good lord, please explain that idiotic comment!***
Mar 11, 2024, 10:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: Delusional fans ] |
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Game Day Hero [4424]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:11 AM
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If he could continue with a season like this one on a regular basis then yeah everyone would sign up. Problem is we feel he will not continue this type of success. We have 14 years of evidence to prove it. We know what type of team we have coming back. Also last year we missed the tournament because we lost to some very bad teams. So no last year was not a success.
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Campus Hero [13148]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:11 AM
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When has Clemson ever left average/ mediocre/ no championships in place for 14 seasons? I would like to know.
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National Champion [7561]
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I don't think anyone expects he'll be fired this year.. i think most are anxious
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:12 AM
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and are afraid after this year, which is a good season for Clemson BB, that the AD will extend his contract and will increase his buyout. So they're making as much of a stink as possible to scare Neff away from falling into that. We lose alot of key players this year. I guess we'll wait to see what the transfer portal gets us
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Orange Blooded [4083]
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Are you cobbnoxious daddy?
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:15 AM
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You speak with the same swillish accent.
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110%er [5684]
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Only 42 percent of Brads seasons have been 20 plus wins
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:25 AM
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Yet were the delusional ones?
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Top TigerNet [31186]
TigerPulse: 100%
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So basically, youre just admitting that you are OK never winning anything
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:37 AM
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No ACC titles, no tournaments, making the NCAA tournament every once in a while, and having nothing to show for it… But spending most of the time in the middle to the lower half of the ACC blowing easy games, and delivering no trophies.
Message was edited by: STERLING®
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Ultimate Tiger [37839]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: So basically, youre just admitting that youre co-OK never winning anything
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:46 AM
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If Clemson decides to get serious about basketball then Brownell would have been gone. Most probably feel we over achieved this season but #### take the games that are definite head scratchers and we are looking at top 3 in the league.
Need some post season success for me to change my mind.
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Orange Immortal [67574]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Orange Blooded [2582]
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Why can Virginia do it then?
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Mar 11, 2024, 9:50 AM
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What great advantage do they have in basketball?
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Why can Virginia do it then?
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Mar 11, 2024, 10:15 AM
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They have a real coach.
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Orange Blooded [2418]
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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This is stupid. Why was Bowden let go? Monte Lee? We should expect better***
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Mar 11, 2024, 10:08 AM
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 10:10 AM
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I have watched, followed, and attended Clemson basketball games for over 65 years. People who gripe about the Brownell years either have no historical perspective or are just plain stupid. For #####
sake, we used to get blown out several times a year! No, Brownell can't bring in a bunch of five-stars every year, but a combination of Nick Saban, John Wooden, Lefty and Deano couldn't do that at Clemson.
People cite the brief success of Purnell and Barnes (both of whom had a lower overall winning percentage here than Brownell) who both ran out seeking greener pastures.
Clemson has had good basketball coaches in the past - Cliff Ellis took four different schools to the tournament - but they usually get run out or seek a place where they will be appreciated, where people support basketball instead of bitchin'. The problem, Brownell haters and the like, is YOU!
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Paw Master [17252]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Delusional fans
Mar 13, 2024, 10:33 AM
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No one of the generation you claim to belong to would call Tommy Bowden a “bully”. That is some crybaby millennial nonsense. Try harder coot.
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Clemson Conqueror [11815]
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What makes you think Clemson couldn't consistently win the SEC Championship? ...
Mar 11, 2024, 10:12 AM
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The few honest coots,dawgs and tarnished domers I've spoken with during our playoff runs were "Concerned" that Clemson beat Alabama, Notre Dame, Ohio State so bad even with the disparity in revenue that imagine if they had the SEC or Big 10 money to work with?
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Game Day Hero [4380]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 10:43 AM
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####, how many times did you have to login with different ids to get 7 thumbs up?
Brownell isn't going to be fired and I'm ok with that, but you aren't a real fan if you don't want more for Clemson than Brownell is giving us.
This "best team ever" is 6th in the ACC and isn't ranked.
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CU Medallion [18413]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2009
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Brown L sucks.
Mar 11, 2024, 10:55 AM
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His teams have no identity from season to season. Brad lacks the passion needed to win at high levels in this sport - one Technical foul in his 14 years here says enough about his inability to stand up for his kids, as does his historically dismal record in one-score games (we'e 2-5 this season if you're counting - a little worse than his normal shortcomings) where he gets routinely outcoached in end games by both young and old.
Brad overperforms only when there are ZERO expectations for us under him, which is the norm. The two times in the past decade when we've actually had high expectations from media and pundits, the season after the Sweet 16 and this year, he has underdelivered, and we have underperformed there. Those are facts.
Is it any surprise that we showed a little fade there in those closing games? And do you have any confidence, at all, that we will actually put two whole wins together in the coming ACCT putting us in a top 4 position where we supposedly belong? Once we locked in an NCAA berth with the win over Pitt, Brad no longer had that hot seat target to contend with. It's been a sad pattern over the years.
He most likely wouldn't be let go after this season even if we 0-fer the ACCT and NCAA ahead. I just hope that we continue along with the one-year extensions with no other buyout changes so he remains on the annual Missouri Plan - Show me or go home. That seems to be the one area he has responded to best in this long-running role.
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Paw Warrior [4880]
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Re: Brown L sucks.
Mar 11, 2024, 11:15 AM
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"Brad overperforms only when there are ZERO expectations for us under him, which is the norm."
Brownell's tenure ranks as just about the worst in the ACC when his team is favored (I think BC is slightly worse). Brownell teams lose 25% of the games they are favored in.
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Starter [273]
TigerPulse: 84%
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1 possession losses
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Mar 11, 2024, 12:45 PM
[ in reply to Brown L sucks. ] |
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This is silly to walkthrough because it doesn't take into other games that were close, but Clemson pulled away, but let's look at the losses. You tell me specifically exactly where CBB made a mistake. Don't say 1 possession losses are on the coach. Be specific.
Tl;dr - It doesn't matter because it will always be CBB's fault.
At Memphis - 77-79 - I admittedly can't recall the specifics here, but it was a back and forth game early in the season against a quality open on the road. I don't remember there really being anything egregious.
Home GT - 90-93 - Chase Hunter misses a FT in regulation that would have iced the game. That's CBB's fault? Hit FT = win.
At Duke 71-72 - Do we really need to talk about this one? Absolutely egregious foul call to allow Duke to shoot FT with virtually no time remaining.
Home Virginia 65-66 - There is some debate here, but you can't say CBB was wrong because the result went badly. Chase Hunter pulls down a rebound and has a full head of steam. He should have kept going to the bucket but kicks to wide open Clark, who misses. If he makes it, then the decision to not call timeout is right, correct? I disagree. The ends don't justify the means. The right call, in my opinion, was based on time, ball handler, and positioning. Chase Hunter should've attacked. He didn't. Now, some are saying that the coach should've told Hunter what to do. That's fine. If you think they don't practice this scenario, I can't help you.
Home NCSU 77-78 - Girard and PJ with TOs late. Chase Hunter attacks the basket but doesn't get the call. Opposite of the Duke game. If the call is made and Chase makes both, do we talk about CBB's coaching there? Likely not. There was enough time on the clock for an offensive rebound and put back. Where's the coaching mistake?
t ball
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CU Medallion [18413]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2009
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Re: 1 possession losses
Mar 11, 2024, 1:14 PM
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is a consistent, 14-year pattern with Brad that seldom vacillates. It's in the books and you can look up his record in these over his career here. Yes, you can parse each and every instance down to 'where was it that he erred' and come up with a reasonable pass off. The problem is, it's a relentless, consistent issue with Brad being on the wrong side of those far more often than his peers. That fact isn't debatable. I would pin it on his inability to instill confidence in his players in critical moments, and a lack of 'finishing power.' How would describe our consistent failures here under him?
If you wanna go the 'snakebit' route - fine. But after 14 years of it you need to consider that it isn't those darn pesky snakes, it's that you are living in the wrong area.
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Starter [273]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: 1 possession losses
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Mar 11, 2024, 2:19 PM
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I go with the "It's basketball" route, not snakebit. The best argument you have about CBB is that the players aren't good enough, and he is responsible for building a roster. That's the best argument because players getting open looks is a product of good coaching. When a player misses a wide open look, you can't blame a lack of coaching. The coaching worked. The difference, I think, is that I differentiate recruiting, development, and coaching. CBB can flat out coach. Development is pretty strong as well. I think the biggest miss might be recruiting or rather roster retention. Some of that is the nature of collegiate athletics.
Now, if it was just the coach, then it's an easy fix and would've been fixed long ago. Please explain why Ellis, Barnes, and Purnell left. If the Clemson basketball job is an easy job, then why did the most successful leave? It's probably because there are other factors that make the job difficult. CBB (and Neff) have tried to improve Clemson basketball and overcome the past issues.
If I thought Clemson basketball was a head coach away from sustained success, not flash in the pan Purnell success, I would help CBB pack.
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CU Medallion [18413]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2009
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Re: 1 possession losses
Mar 11, 2024, 3:46 PM
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No, it's Bradsketball. When you consistently fail in close games at rates far in excess of your record otherwise, and you do it year after year after year and consistently lead your league in this measurable (with an outlier here and there - but very rare), you have a problem closing out close games and instilling a confidence and will to win when it's crunch time. It's part of his DNA since he's been here. Against lesser coaching talent in previous leagues, he didn't fare this poorly. But among the big boys and tops in class - it is what it is.
Purnell put together 3 of our top seasons in history back-to-back-to-back to finish out after pulling us out of the dumpster fire that Shyatt left the program in. Purnell's only losing season was his first. He played for and nearly snagged our first ACCT championship during that 3-year surge. Brad has played in exactly one ACCT semi-final game (lost) and has never managed more than one win there. To say that Purnell was a flash-in-the-pan type of success tells me enough to disengage here from any further discussion.
Go Tigers!
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Starter [273]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: 1 possession losses
Mar 11, 2024, 5:04 PM
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. . . and Purnell left to go to DePaul. Barnes left for Texas. Ellis left for Auburn. Why? What is it about Clemson that pushes the most successful coaches away. That needs to be answered before finding another coach. The anti-CBB takes about the definition of insanity. I would argue Clemson basketball is the definition of insanity.
Also, when you just look at one possession losses, you conveniently leave out games like at UNC, at Bama, scar, Pitt x2. Not great wins, but not losses: UAB, Davidson. What about blowing out a good team like Boise, sweeping Syracuse and FSU.
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Starter [273]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: 1 possession losses
Mar 11, 2024, 5:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: 1 possession losses ] |
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Based on Clemson's history, Purnell's success was flash in the pan. Clemson hasn't experienced that kind of success consistently. Purnell built it to that point, so it wasn't flash in the pan for him, but why does Purnell get a pass on his NCAAT record (0-3). If the point is to make, you should be thrilled for this season. Additionally, shouldn't a Sweet 16 trump anything that Purnell did? By your own admission, Purnell "nearly snagged" an ACCT. How many coaches have won an ACCT? Zero. How many regular season titles? One. Any basketball success has been flash in the pan.
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CU Medallion [18413]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2009
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You are the one that introduced Purnell to this.
Mar 11, 2024, 6:09 PM
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I simply pointed out your erroneous reference there regarding him and showed why you were wrong in what you stated. Why don't you start another thread on the topic if you want to talk OP? Otherwise you're making strawman objections to try and boost Brad's stock and commenting on your own counter-points that no one but you is making - the sign of weak logic and not being able to focus on the point at hand - Brown L's coaching struggles and fans being tired of the same ole same ole.
I'm sorry you can't handle inconvenient truths about Brown L. His crappy record in one-possession games isn't debatable. If you have the talent that is performing well enough versus your opponent that night (basketball, right?) to make it to the last minute, and you consistently fall short moreso than the coaching talent you compete against in getting that W versus that L - that.is.on.you. Not the players. The players showed up and put us there to win, and Brad more than anyone in the ACC consistently coaches us out of those opportunities as the final tally shows - the results at 0:00. This is 14 years in the making here. That die has been cast at this point. It is what it is. Really wish it weren't, because those are more painful as fans, but alas.
I'm not going to visit your frets about history and no one wanting to come here and all that other loser nonsense, because that's what it is. Look at our record in Lacrosse, Softball, and now Gymnastics and cry your poor hoops history sob story with others who have given up alongside. They're nearby, so you won't have to look too far.
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Starter [273]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: You are the one that introduced Purnell to this.
Mar 12, 2024, 12:26 PM
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wildblulou®
I didn't see this until today. "The players showed up and put us there to win." Coaching only matters in the final 1:00 of the game? Huh?
Also, I haven't given up on basketball. I do believe the program is better than making the tournament 25% of the time; HOWEVER, when it hasn't been sustained throughout Clemson basketball history, then you must make sure the house is in order before moving on to someone else. If Neff decides to make a change, I will support that change. I'm not a CBB over Clemson person. I personally believe, and Clemson basketball history backs me up, that it's not just the coach. I don't know what that is, but if it was just the coach, it's a simple fix. Find the best coach and pay him Dabo money.
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Redshirt [90]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: 1 possession losses
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Mar 11, 2024, 6:30 PM
[ in reply to 1 possession losses ] |
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While I cannot state whether a coaching mistake occurred, I can provide this reference that since the 2010-11 season, Clemson is 31-49 (0.3875) in one-possession games (i.e. we either won or lost by no more that 3 points). Clemson has been better in the last 2 years though with a 6-7 (0.4615) record.
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Game Day Hero [4135]
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Re: Delusional fans
Mar 11, 2024, 10:58 AM
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I’m sure you thought similarly about football before Dabo Swinney
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Orange Blooded [2119]
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Re: Delusional fans
Mar 11, 2024, 12:24 PM
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This team will be in the Sweet 16. I just feel it in my bones.
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Offensive Star [314]
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 1:11 PM
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Remember when all the pundits said we were delusional about our football team…then Dabo showed up and let everyone know it’s ok to expect to be the best. Let’s just hope we actually do something big in one of these tournaments so we don’t have to settle for 6th best in conference.
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Starter [273]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 11, 2024, 3:00 PM
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Apples and coconuts. Clemson football had been to the top of the mountain. Don't forget that Clemson fans were ready to fire Dabo after the 6-7 season. After three season, Dabo was 25-14. In Tommy Bowden's three full seasons prior to the 3-3 start, he was 25-13. The AD and administration backed Dabo's vision and put in place the means to achieve it. Dabo will tell you that without the investment in football, there was no chance Clemson would be where it is today. (I'm not saying the administration didn't support Bowden. It did, but not to the level of the support Dabo received. Now, Dabo had to sell the vision, so I'm not discrediting the Dabo effect.)
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Game Day Hero [4176]
TigerPulse: 100%
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More games against cupcakes and watered down ACC .
Mar 11, 2024, 8:34 PM
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20 wins today is not the same as 20 years ago.
The teams of today could not compete with the Clemson teams of the 80s and 90s.
The issue is one of where do we go from here and who will take us there. Brad has not moved the needle. Same over and over.
Time for change.
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All-In [10805]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2003
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Re: Delusional fans
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Mar 12, 2024, 3:04 AM
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Delusional is fans thinking Clownell is going to ever take this team deep into the big dance. 😂
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Heisman Winner [78871]
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LOL, this post could have been written at just about any time during the tenure
Mar 12, 2024, 8:19 AM
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of "But he's a good, Christian mam" Tommy Bowden's football coaching time at Clemson. All the excuses and results are the same. I suspect that the number of major football schools that have hired Bowden following his leaving Clemson will equal the number of major basketball schools that will attempt to hire Brad Brownell once he is finally shown the door at Clemson.
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