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Top TigerNet [29021]
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I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 4, 2025, 7:41 PM
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Methodology: cross stratified samples - Christians, evangelical, liturgical, progressive, conservative, etc. - Non-Christians, atheist, agnostic, deist, apathetic, etc. - Politcal liberals, conservatives, active, non-active, voters, non-voters, etc.)
I'd love to compare answers between Christians and non-Christians, conservative and liberal, active politically and non-active.
(I have a hypothesis about politics, Trump, MAGA, Never Trumpers, etc. I have no way to verify if my hypothesis is correct. Barna could help me.
1. Do conservative Christians force their religious beliefs to agree with their political beliefs?
2. Do progressive Christians force their religious beliefs to agree with their political beliefs?
3. Is Donald Trump motivated by his faith in Jesus Christ?
4. Is Donald Trump a Christian?
5. Is Donald Trump possibly the anti-Christ?
6. Is the Republican Party the party of Jesus?
7. Is the Democratic Party the party of Jesus?
8. Should Christians agree on every political issue?
9. Should Christians even be involved in politics?
10. Agree or disagree: I support all of Trump's political actions.
11. Agree or disagree: I oppose all of Trump's political actions.
I could come up with some more, but those should give me some sort of idea whether or not my hypothesis is correct, totally wrong, or some place in between.
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Dynasty Maker [3236]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 4, 2025, 9:17 PM
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9. If they are they don’t know their scriptures…
Romans 13:1-2
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment.
Trump is busting hell wide open based on that passage.
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
Feb 5, 2025, 4:34 PM
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Trump is the governing authority.
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Dynasty Maker [3236]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
Feb 5, 2025, 5:20 PM
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Who resisted gods ordination of Joe Biden.
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
Feb 5, 2025, 5:25 PM
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Not me.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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Trump is "a" governing authority. Not "the"....
Feb 5, 2025, 5:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey. ] |
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There's Congress. There's the Judicial branch. There are state & local authorities as well.
In the US, governing authority is not wrapped up in one individual.
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: Trump is "a" governing authority. Not "the"....
Feb 5, 2025, 5:46 PM
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He is the chief.
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Clemson Icon [25716]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 4, 2025, 9:20 PM
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Are you asking for responses here, or simply stating you'd like to see Barna do it?
You may be familiar with this, and maybe it relates to your thoughts. About 20 years ago Barna wanted to get a handle on what an "evangelical" actually is, and how many there are. To land on something most people would agree to, Barna decided that an evangelical would answer yes to a very short list of foundational questions. I forget all of them, but they were basically:
- The bible is true in all that it teaches.
- Jesus lived a sinless life.
- Salvation is available only by grace, not works.
- Jesus is the only atonement for sin.
- My faith in Jesus is important to me in daily life.
There were a couple or three more, but all were similar bottom shelf questions that seem to be Christianity 101. Results?
- 8%: Qualify as evangelical per those question in 2007. In 2019, was 6%. Today, certainly less than 5%.
- 60% of total population thinks evangelicals significantly influence elections.
- 70%: Evangelicals who do not own guns.
The idea that evangelicals "cling to their bibles and their guns" and determine elections seems incorrect. It's only 4 or 5 percent, and they dont own guns.
'Yes, but there's all these religious people on television.' No question about it, so maybe media's definition of evangelical is "religious people who talk about politics a lot."
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Top TigerNet [29021]
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I'd love to have people respond with their personal answers.
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Feb 4, 2025, 10:09 PM
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I'm trying to figure out
1. How closely Christians (fundamental, evangelical, progressive, et. al.) have melded their political and religious beliefs.
2. How many people equate Trump as either "a great Christian" or "the spawn of Satan" based on their political beliefs, not their Christian beliefs.
3. Even if they have, will they admit it.
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Clemson Icon [25716]
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Got it. Okay, here's mine:
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Feb 5, 2025, 1:09 AM
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I will answer as a Barna evangelical, per the Barna questions. (I am claiming nothing, as no one knows a person's heart, including my own, except Jesus.)
1. Do conservative Christians force their religious beliefs to agree with their political beliefs?
No, not in the sense that X religious principle equals Y political opinion. How Jesus defines humanity and the individual forms my values, which then affect how I see political issues. But others of the same values might have different politics. I think most evangelicals of the Barna definition believe this.
2. Do progressive Christians force their religious beliefs to agree with their political beliefs?
Seem to. Some Christians seem to align their view of biblical truth with cultural norms and politics.
3. Is Donald Trump motivated by his faith in Jesus Christ?
Dont know. Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural, mostly his devotional read in public, was a statement of motivation. Trump hasn't yet said anything like that.
4. Is Donald Trump a Christian?
Dont know.
5. Is Donald Trump possibly the anti-Christ?
No, imo. Until someone orders subdermal chips for transactions, we're not there. AC doesnt seem to be from U.S.
6. Is the Republican Party the party of Jesus?
No.
7. Is the Democratic Party the party of Jesus?
No.
8. Should Christians agree on every political issue?
No.
9. Should Christians even be involved in politics?
Personal choice. Voting, campaigning, serving - democracy - is not "resisting government". Is the opposite of it.
10. Agree or disagree: I support all of Trump's political actions.
Disagree.
11. Agree or disagree: I oppose all of Trump's political actions.
Disagree.
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Dynasty Maker [3236]
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Re: Got it. Okay, here's mine:
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Feb 5, 2025, 12:55 PM
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“ Should Christians even be involved in politics?
Personal choice. Voting, campaigning, serving - democracy - is not "resisting government". Is the opposite of it.”
It is just another point at which modern Christianity differers from New Testament Christianity…
They were all about saving as many souls as possible before the end which was imminent.
Modern Christians want their culture to be more “Christian”.
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: I'd love to have people respond with their personal answers.
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Feb 5, 2025, 4:47 PM
[ in reply to I'd love to have people respond with their personal answers. ] |
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I 100% support Trump, but I don't think he is a Christian. I think he thinks he is a Christian, but Everytime he is asked he references his good works outweighing his bad works. That is not how one becomes a Christian.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101133]
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All I know is that...
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Feb 5, 2025, 6:07 AM
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the Bible records no event where Jesus, the apostles or the early churches got involved in politics. The way I see it is that dallying in politics is like wading in the shallow end of a cesspool and the more one moves toward the deep end the more soils his testimony gets soiled.
I reckon I'm responding to question #9 on your list.
Ephesians 6:
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
The highest place in this world is the hearts of man. God sits on The Throne of Power and Glory with Jesus His son at His right hand.
The throne of the Holy Spirit is the hearts of man. Politics divides Christians. Finally, Psa 119:
"33 HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.
40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness."
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Clemson Icon [25716]
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Re: All I know is that...
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Feb 5, 2025, 1:59 PM
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All accurately quoted, but as you apply it, it leads to a couple of questions.
I think you and I agree that it is increasingly important to live by the truth that no answers to happiness are in the political or secular realm. For me, this means I would not get involved in politics, not because doing so is wrong but because He has other priorities for me. I think we will see more Christians adopt this view.
However you open by suggesting that because Jesus's mission superseded politics, Christians shouldn't be in politics. Two questions:
- Jesus's mission superseded profession, family and hobbies. He left all that. Should we do the same?
- Did Washington, Hancock and Adams stray from their faith?
I agree it is more necessary than ever to carry a message that no answers are in this world. To say one cannot therefore be in politics is, imo, to fall into the "do not handle, do not taste, do not touch" error of Colossians. I cant do it, but it is not a biblical mandate for everyone. Some may be called to it. Paul, referring to Jesus, suggested singleness as supporting ministry, but said marriage is great.
Anyway, interested in how you see those two questions.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101133]
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Re: All I know is that...
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Feb 5, 2025, 2:52 PM
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- Jesus's mission superseded profession, family and hobbies. He left all that. Should we do the same?
No, our obligation to God includes caring for our families. I think we should do all as unto God. If hobbies are wrong then I'm chiefest of all sinners.
Did Washington, Hancock and Adams stray from their faith?
IDK, the main focus of the founding of this nation was that all men are created equal. Now that's taken quite a turn because our founders were talking about the social and economic separation between those called royal and those called commoners. Even more so was their desire to own property and self governance.
I say IDK because their desire to self governance and property rights don't necessarily happen in service to God alone.
However, freedom of religion was founded to prevent the church and state from climbing between the sheets. They didn't want either dictating what the other did. That is fairly evident reading Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist.
IMO, nothing the average Joe like me can do in the political arena to change factors which demand how we live. Therefore, every minute I waste on politics is more preciously used in prayer, Bible reading, personal testimony or just meeting folks and being what God wants me to be.
I can't speak for others but for myself, politics is a poison, it's a slow crawl out of fellowship with God.
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Clemson Icon [25716]
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Re: All I know is that...
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Feb 5, 2025, 4:09 PM
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I agree with all you said, for me personally. I also think a growing number of Christians are rightfully taking that same position about politics. IMO, that does not make it a biblical directive. A person can be in politics today for the same reasons Washington was.
Another way to say it is that we agree that the only 'should' is to follow the Spirit's leading. Some of that is personal, moment by moment, some is universal, such as the Great Commission. The Spirit leads us in how to live the GC, and as circumstances dictate, more of us will eliminate politics from activity or even discussion. But I dont see that being true for everyone. There is no biblical directive against it, so I imagine the Spirit will lead some people into it, if for no other reason than politicians and staffers needing to hear the Gospel also. The Spirit sends ambassadors everywhere.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101133]
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If you're recruiting for...
1
Feb 6, 2025, 6:33 AM
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evangelist to go on a mission into a political campaign all I can say is I'll pray about it and go where God leads.
RTE/R: I maintain my right to edit and/or remove this post.
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Game Changer [1627]
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Re: All I know is that...
Feb 6, 2025, 8:01 AM
[ in reply to Re: All I know is that... ] |
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Interesting that just this morning while I was half awake and channel surfing I came across a commercial for the FFR organization. I thought I recognized the spokesman, but couldn't quite place him. As it turns of the organization is the Freedom From Religion. Who's purpose, it seems, was to keep religion out of the government "as the founding fathers intended". And organization devoted to atheism. I just found it strange. And stranger still when the spokesman said, "I'm Ron Reagan Jr."
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Game Changer [1627]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 5, 2025, 7:53 AM
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For 1 an 2, I would say it's the other way around. They try an align their political beliefs to their religious beliefs.
When it comes to Trump, That's between him and the Lord. As for motivations, It's been my observation that Trump is motivated by power and money. That's just MHO.
Neither party can lay claim to be the "party of Jesus".
Not everyone in our church aligns politically. And yet, we worship in the same church to the same God.
What does "involved" mean? Voting? yes. Using my religious beliefs or quoting scripture to influence policy or an election, probably not.
I don't support or oppose "all" of any politicians actions.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 5, 2025, 9:14 AM
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1. Do conservative Christians force their religious beliefs to agree with their political beliefs?
In some cases, yes. I've seen Conservative Christians twist themselves into a pretzel to support Trump, including aligning Trump with certain biblical figures. Their beliefs are more malleable than we were led to believe a decade or so ago.
2. Do progressive Christians force their religious beliefs to agree with their political beliefs?
In some cases, yes. Some Progressive Christians have put all their eggs in the Golden Rule basket, but ignoring some other things in the Bible.
3. Is Donald Trump motivated by his faith in Jesus Christ?
Bwahahahahahaahahaahhahaahahahah
4. Is Donald Trump a Christian?
Bwahahahahahahahaaahahahhahaahahahahah
5. Is Donald Trump possibly the anti-Christ?
He's an evil man. But no, I don't consider him the anti-Christ.
6. Is the Republican Party the party of Jesus?
Bwahahahaahahaahahaahahahahaahahah
7. Is the Democratic Party the party of Jesus?
No.
8. Should Christians agree on every political issue?
No.
9. Should Christians even be involved in politics?
Yes, but not as an organized church. Both sides have done this over the years.
10. Agree or disagree: I support all of Trump's political actions.
Disagree.
11. Agree or disagree: I oppose all of Trump's political actions.
Disagree. There are a few things he's done over the years that I was OK with. Very few.
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Top TigerNet [31807]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 5, 2025, 12:56 PM
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That would be a very interesting survey. It would be interesting to see what ties-in with what else, and I think a lot of those answers come from different psychological profiles once you dig deep enough.
As a younger man I thought that people aligned themselves with various groups, political or religious, based on objective factors and decisions. They made a neutral choice. But as I grow older, I see very little that is objective at all in anything, from either side of the equation; us or reality.
So we are left with what does one subjectively ‘want’ the world, or existence, to be? And that’s how I think we think, worship, and vote. Our bias is baked in. And so even if there were an objective reality, we may not choose it for a variety of reasons.
For instance, is it objectively better for the nation to invest in guns, or butter? Who can possibly say? The answer could change overnight. When there’s a natural disaster you want butter. When there’s a war you want guns. And what’s the objectively correct allocation, 50-50, 45-55, 60-40? Who knows? And does it matter if I'm an arms manufacturer or a food manufacturer?
In religion, who’s closer to what God wants? Baptists? Amish? Sikhs? Who knows?
So in both cases, since it’s impossible to say what the ‘best’ objective answer is, we have no choice but to rely on our own subjectivity. And that’s where I think these profiles come in. This ‘type’ of person tends to find themselves at home in the Republican party, and that ‘type’ in the Democratic party. Or, this ‘type’ of person tends to find themselves at home in a Christian church, or maybe a mystical church, or maybe no church at all.
And each type is determined by both nature and nurture. So when a person aligns themselves with any group, they are finding a home with like-minded people, independent of any objectivity on a topic. If there were objective realities to work with decisions would be much easier. But things are so, so complex, and we have so little information to work with, in both politics or religion. In sum, “It’s Chinatown, Jake.” “You may think you know what is going on Mr. Gittes, but I assure you, you do not.”
In America that leads to some particularly tough dilemmas. How does one juggle the fact that Jesus wasn’t exactly a capitalist? So in our case the state and the predominant religion are often diametrically opposed. Does that dollar go in the pocket or to charity? Profit or compassion? And what’s the correct percentage of each? The answer will come from one’s own personal, subjective, world view, rather than an objectively correct answer.
So a more interesting question might be, "What type of person are you? " vs." What is your political affiliation and religion?" Though a survey like that may show the two to be very closely aligned.
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Game Changer [1627]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 5, 2025, 1:25 PM
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Based on the the OP (and I'll take the Trump stuff out of it) I think what we're searching for here is who lays claim to the moral high ground. Whether it's a political ideology or a religious one we want to be or at least align ourselves with the correct side.
And there is strength in our resolve the more like minded there are in my group. We don't get differing information that would undermine our position on the hill. We want reaffirming info that stabilizes us into knowing that WE are the ones that are right.
Internally if I ask myself the questions "What type of person am I?' and "What is my political and religious affiliation?" Of course they would align. They would align perfectly because I made the alignment.
So can I be surveyed from an outside source objectively? Probably not. Can you tell what type of person I am if I say that I'm a Christian democrat? Some might say I'm a liar. Some might say, of course you are. How could you be anything else?
Interesting that when I realize that someone in our church is a liberal democrat I'm puzzled, Because they don't fit my preconceived idea as to what that means. Others, on the other hand, play the part very well.
And that is to say, Is that all it is? playing the part?
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Top TigerNet [31807]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 5, 2025, 2:01 PM
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>I think what we're searching for here is who lays claim to the moral high ground. Whether it's a political ideology or a religious one we want to be or at least align ourselves with the correct side.
In a sense, I'd say, but it's deeper than that. I'm not really sure anyone is 'playing a part.' I think it is real as real is to people. What I've learned is that people truly believe what they believe, and they're not joking about it, or, they wouldn't bother.
For instance, in my guns and butter example, there is a 'type' of person who truly believes, with all their heart, that national security is priority over the welfare of the citizens. Not that they want citizens to suffer, but it's a second priority to security. They will argue, with merit, that if we get overrun by an enemy, it won't matter if you have shoes or a warm sweater...you'll be in a prison camp.
This is the case in Israel. As one Israeli general said, "When your entire country can be overrun by tanks in 25 minutes, you tend to look at National Defense a little differently."
Another type of person will argue, with merit, that we have 5th generation fighter planes when our closest enemy only has 3rd generation. The F-15 Eagle is something like 160-0 in air-to-air combat since the 70's. Never been defeated, ever. Not even close. So how much is enough? How much was pork? We could still be 160-0 with 4th generation fighters, and some of those billions in R&D could have gone to homeless shelters.
So to me, it's not really about being 'right' it's your priorities as a person. As I said, "what kind of person are you? What's most important, what are the priorities, and to what degree? It's not really a right/wrong question.
>They would align perfectly because I made the alignment.
Yes, you chose your church, and you chose your party. So you found like-minded people to associate with. We all do. No one is a Buddhist because he knows in his heart that Catholicism is the 'true' religion, lol. If he thought that, he's be a Catholic. He truly, truly, believes what he believes.
And in war, no one has EVER gone to war with God on the other guy's side. God is always on OUR side, whoever we are. My boss fought in WW2 against many Germans wearing Christian crosses on their necklaces. And they didn't surrender to the 'bad guys,' us. They chose to die instead. I wonder what Martin Luther would have thought about THOSE Germans?
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Game Changer [1627]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 5, 2025, 3:42 PM
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I agree and I suppose we get wrapped up in 1st world problems here. Then justify our priorities through either the church or our political ideology or both. Trying not to say anything is "right or wrong".
I have a friend that either emails me or texts me articles constantly (maybe not as mush as he used to) on the culture wars. LBGTQ stuff, trans stuff, gender equality stuff. And if I'm honest, I got other things on my plate than that. Not a big issue for me. So if you trot out either religious or political ideology trying to sway me one way or another and force me to a side, I'm probably just gonna back out.
Then, we'll get into the "indirect effects" of all of it. And that inevitably lead to questioning my religious beliefs and/or political ideology. How can you be a (fill in the blank) and support/be against
(fill in the blank).
I guess I don't view the world through this black and white lens that most seem to these days.
"I'm not really sure anyone is 'playing a part.' I think it is real as real is to people. What I've learned is that people truly believe what they believe, and they're not joking about it, or, they wouldn't bother"
I'm not so sure on this one. Say you're a member of Group A. You're in full support of Group A because they think just like you do. You get on board with everything Group A states or you can't call yourself a Group A'er. So the priority here is to be identified with Group A because you believe that they are the group that truly holds the keys to the kingdom. And if pressed on the issue du jour, would you risk being identified as a Group B'er?
That's the trap of group think. Which sounds to me like what the OP is about.
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Top TigerNet [31807]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 5, 2025, 10:12 PM
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Yes, group dynamics change the whole playing field yet again. Unless one lives alone in cave, there is ALWAYS a social factor to everything.
And groups, like almost everything else, are a two-edged sword. The same group that appeals to you on one issue can condemn you on another issue. I learned a hard lesson on that by inviting a group of personal friends to mix with a group of professional friends at a dinner theater once. What could go wrong? Everything. Just a disaster. They did not mix, at all. There were no fights or scenes, they just completely ignored one another. Two completely different circles that wanted to be independent circles.
I have a good friend, a bit older than me, who realized the same thing. We both have an interest in history, and so we met at a historical board game convention in town. Hit it off like gangbusters.
After a several months of game sessions in our homes, at friends, and around town, I asked if he'd like to go to dinner or see a movie with the wives. He said "I don't really want to be your friend that way." His bluntness caught me by surprise and I actually laughed.
He said "I don't mean that in a bad way, you're a great guy, etc., etc. There are just so few of us who have this hobby that I don't want anything to mess it up. And if we mix in other ways, it might mess this up if we have a falling out in some unrelated area." So we didn't, and twenty years later he's still one of my best hobby buddies, and we've never had dinner together, lol.
So yeah, circles and spheres are important. The only two things my ex-bosses had in common was our profession, and hunting. So they worked in the office, occasionally hunted on the side, and I don't know if either ever spoke to each other outside of those circumstances. They might have hated each other. But they lasted over 40 years as a partnership, so it worked out pretty well for them.
A whole room full of my board game brother-in-nerds.
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Game Changer [1627]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
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Feb 6, 2025, 7:55 AM
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That's so true. You reminded me of an occasion where my wife and I were invited to a close friend's promotion party. Military. At the party you could readily identify each group talking amongst themselves. There was the family group, the military group and and friends group. I know people in each and had no trouble drifting from conversation to conversation. Until that is the family group talked about things that were obviously family and the military folks began speaking in acronyms.
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Top TigerNet [29021]
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Thanks to all the answers.
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Feb 5, 2025, 7:13 PM
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Here are some of the hypotheses (or maybe beliefs I have that cannot be proven and are subject to change with more information or reflection):
1. America is moving toward a more authoritarian form of government. Liberals, conservatives, capitalists, socialists, progressives, whatever, all are getting more and more comfortable with the idea of a strong, authoritarian leader. They just want it to be a leader who agrees with there political philosophy. If he does, then they applaud bypassing congress with executive orders, figuring out ways to go around the courts, etc. If liberals could have made Obama king, they would have no problem doing so. If MAGA Republicans could make Trump king, they would also have no problem doing that. Replacing the constitution with a "dictator who agrees with me" is becoming more and more acceptable, or even preferable, to many Americans.
2. Americans are blurring their politics with their religion to the point it is hard to tell the difference. Progressives claim that the Bible approves of their political positions (abortion, LGBTQ+, etc.) even though the Bible clearly labels those activities as abominable and sinful. Conservatives claim that their political positions are based on Biblical teaching (tax rates, foreign aid, tariffs, abolishing the Dept of Ed, Keystone Pipeline, etc.) and anyone who supports those positions must be a Christian. (I have friends who have told me that "Donald Trump is God's appointed man to lead America back to God.)
Here is my concern. These same Republicans who now follow Trump no matter what he does and excuse any personal character flaw he has like his strong-handed, authoritarian approach. (Just like Democrats like Obama.) But, what if Gavin Newsome (or equivalent) is elected in 2028, or 2032 or whenever and he becomes even more of a strong-handed, authoritarian than Trump is.
Our founding fathers were extremely concerned about replacing one monarchy with a different monarchy. But, 250 years later, Americans seem to be getting tire do "checks and balances" and would prefer a "bull in a china shop" style government.
My advice to both sides - conservative and progressive - be careful what you ask for. History shows us every country loves a tyrant, until they have one.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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I don't agree with every single thing you said...
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Feb 5, 2025, 8:02 PM
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But I agreed with some of it, especially your final basic point about being careful what you ask for.
What needs to happen - and it won't happen anytime soon - is that Congress needs to take their power back. This might mean that "Tyrant X" gets removed from office, and laws that were passed by congress to give power to the executive are repealed. Then, we might see a government that's more representative of the people in this country, liberals and conservatives, Christians and non-Christians.
I think the mixing of religion & politics would be less corrosive if people didn't live vicariously through their favorite "President X"....
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: I don't agree with every single thing you said...
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Feb 5, 2025, 8:48 PM
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I think the problem lies in the polarization of our people. For most our history, we were a centrist people with a fringe on the left and on the right. Now we are a polarized people with the majority being either far left or far right. The moderates are now the minority and the radicals are the majority.
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Top TigerNet [31807]
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Re: Thanks to all the answers.
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Feb 5, 2025, 11:14 PM
[ in reply to Thanks to all the answers. ] |
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Anyone with a knowledge of history knows that we, as a nominal Constitutional Republic, are a pearl in the ocean. The history of man is the history of monarchs and dictators. We are so rare it's almost impossible to describe.
I say nominal because I'm not sure what we are in reality. Maybe we're already an oligarchy (Gates, Bezos, Musk) and have been for a long time (Ford, Carnegie, Morgan/Washington, Jefferson, Madison), without admitting it. I'll have to do more research on that one. The famous phrase (from someone) is "Presidents come and go, but CEOs live on."
There is something very basic in man that is drawn to strong leaders. That's why kings and dictators. If you remember the Donahue show, I was floored when he went to Russia during the 80's Cold War and asked people on the street in Moscow who they wanted as a leader. 90% of them said "Stalin." He said, "but Stalin killed 30 million of your countrymen, possibly your own relatives." And the replied "Yes, but he was a strong man." So the appeal of strength, perceived or real, cannot be underestimated. It's in our code.
In our case, although we have set the conditions for policy roller-coasters in a variety of areas, I think our saving grace may be term limits. No matter how crazy things get, Americans always have the option to reset everything every 2 and 4 years. If that changes, though, we will no longer be America.
We've got some kinks that could be worked out but they never will be. Because of the Electoral College, the 15 lowest population states have more Congressional power than the New York metro area. 20 million people to 20 million people, and 26 House seats to 26 House seats, but 30 senators to 2. So a mechanism put in place to prevent small states being railroaded instead gives them controlling power.
I actually think the system of Congress electing the President under the old Articles might have been better. It's simple chain of command. It holds Congress responsible to the people for Congress's choice. As it is now, America can sort of 'end run' around Congress, and Congress can get sidelined by a willful Executive. I've been surprised at how Congress has knuckled under in a variety of ways over the last 20 years.
America should get what it votes for, that's what separates us from most nations on earth and in history, but slow and steady rather than chaotic would be better I think. The days of the "Greatest Deliberative Body in History" seem to be fading fast as those changes swing back and forth ever more rapidly.
The Roman Republic lasted 500 years, but the Roman/Byzantine Empire lasted 1500. So dictatorships definitely work. And, Rome/Byzantium had a Senate the whole time. They just became more and more rubber stamp after Augustus.
For us worker bees it probably doesn't make any difference anyway. People still work, live their lives, and mostly do whatever they want in the comfort of their homes. We might learn something from Rome, though. An Italian friend once told me, "Whatever people are doing, that's what the law is. Not the other way around."
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Top TigerNet [31807]
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Re: Thanks to all the answers.
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Feb 5, 2025, 11:48 PM
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It's amazing when you realize that when the FF wrote the Articles and Constitution, there was no indication that anything beyond the Mississippi would ever be available for settlement, without war with Europe at least.
So they probably envisioned 13 states plus maybe a dozen more in the Old Northwest (Ohio) and Deep South. And I think there was a provision to bring Canada in if they wanted.
There were about 2.5 million people in the country in 1790. So the fact that we're still here with over 100-fold population (330 million) and 50 states is kind of amazing. Not perfect, but pretty damm ggod.
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Clemson Icon [25716]
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Re: Thanks to all the answers.
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Feb 6, 2025, 12:47 AM
[ in reply to Thanks to all the answers. ] |
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Agree with your conclusions. I also agree with reynolds357 that the social shift is not about desire for strong authority per se, but for someone to make things the way we want them to be. To trust the republic process requires, imo, a love for something greater than getting our way (stated in the Declaration). I think the FF were saying, "A govt cannot give that to you. You create it in the mirror and with the people around you."
The battle they gave to us was to protect the primacy of the individual. We seem to have lost a desire for that, instead have chosen up two sides to battle for power, which some commentators call Marxism. That almost necessarily means authoritarian leaders. Fordtunate Son notes a universal attraction to secular authoritarianism. I agree, and imo this discussion is why. We no longer trust ourselves enough to let everyone else be themselves. I also agree with Fordt that the US experiment in that direction is a unique event in history,
Fordt's conclusion is then why I agree with ClemsonTiger1988® that Christians are leaving politics and political discussions. The genie of collectivism, which I think is evil for the reasons we are seeing, is out of the bottle here, and the ballot box cant put it back in. No joy down that road.
So, I think you have uncovered some surprising general agreement here. I will invite some to consider the possibility that if the creation of the US republic was a unique historical event, and if most of it's creators attributed it to a preceding unique historical Event of the Creator, might ours give credibility to the truth of His? 
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101133]
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Did you know this threadstarter would become a political bondfire?
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Feb 6, 2025, 6:35 AM
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B-Meist®
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Top TigerNet [29021]
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I debated whether to put it here or in the political board.
Feb 6, 2025, 8:22 AM
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I decided here because I wanted to see what other Christians were thinking.
I am a political conservative. I worked in Barry Goldwater's campaign (as a teenager in 1964). I have been active in politics since then. (Never as a candidate, but more than just a voter.) I have also been active in my Christian life since being a teen. I started teaching Sunday School when I was in college and have been doing so for over 50 years. I do believe that Christians have a Christian responsibility to seek, support and vote for candidates based on how they will positively, or negatively, impact the kingdom of God.
I agree with Trump's political positions probably around 80-90% of the time. But, I am deeply concerned that most of my Christian brothers and sisters are no only ignoring his character and integrity flaws, but also trumpeting (pun intended) him to be "a fine Godly, man.... an outstanding Christian who is being attacked because of his Christian beliefs....a man chosen by God to lead America in a great revival and return to Him."
I think Trump, in a different way, is just as dangerous to America as Biden was. Christians had options in the Republican primaries in 2016 and in 2024. But, they overwhelmingly flocked to Trump both times, especially in 2024. In that campaign Trump became, to the conservative Christians, "God's candidate."
I voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020. (I didn't vote for him in the 2016 primary.) But, I did not vote for him in 2024. I see him as a danger not only to America, but also as a danger to the kingdom of God.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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You and I are coming from a different place....
Feb 6, 2025, 2:06 PM
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But again, I'm agreeing with you on some major themes:
>>I think Trump, in a different way, is just as dangerous to America as Biden was. Christians had options in the Republican primaries in 2016 and in 2024. But, they overwhelmingly flocked to Trump both times, especially in 2024. In that campaign Trump became, to the conservative Christians, "God's candidate."
I voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020. (I didn't vote for him in the 2016 primary.) But, I did not vote for him in 2024. I see him as a danger not only to America, but also as a danger to the kingdom of God.
I worry about what Trump is doing to America, and to the Church. He's a con-man/grifter. And his con is working on alot of people who consider themselves Christian conservatives. These next few years are going to be a very rough ride.
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Clemson Icon [25716]
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Re: I debated whether to put it here or in the political board.
Feb 6, 2025, 2:31 PM
[ in reply to I debated whether to put it here or in the political board. ] |
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I think you placed it well. Each topic should be in its separate place 90% of the time, but because the Declaration came from where its authors said it did, there is an intersection of Christianity and politics in American history. That is true whether one is Christian or atheist, and sometimes that it is a legit discussion. If it becomes uncivil or hijacked, go to the political board. Had you placed it on the political board, it would have been a sh**storm from the start.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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Agreed...
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Feb 6, 2025, 3:32 PM
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but it's probably not a topic to put on this board all the time, just an occasional one. I like the fact that this board is mostly non-political.
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: Agreed...
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Feb 6, 2025, 8:05 PM
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Politics and religion seem to go hand in hand these days.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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Re: Agreed...
Feb 7, 2025, 10:32 AM
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My wife has a friend that visited a small'ish country non-denominational church a few years ago. She attended a sunday school class. And one of the other attendees stated that Democrats can't be Christians. An obvious stupid and ignorant statement. She never went back to that church.
So, when you say that religion & politics seem to go hand-in-hand, there is some truth to that to a point.
I hope we don't end up fighting that battle on this board.
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: Agreed...
Feb 7, 2025, 11:17 AM
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I think Democrats can be Christians. At the same time, I think it is hard to reconcile abortion on demand, especially late term abortion, to Christian doctrine.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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I would say the same thing....
Feb 7, 2025, 11:48 AM
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about Republicans and reconciling Christian doctrine to their support of Trump, among other things.
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Top TigerNet [29021]
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I think y'all are saying what I am fearing.
Feb 7, 2025, 12:30 PM
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Christians - progressive and conservative - are replacing their theology with there political views and convincing themselves that the Bible agrees with their political views. And that any politician who agrees with their political views is a strong Christian, regardless of their personal life. (Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, e.g.)
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: I would say the same thing....
Feb 7, 2025, 12:58 PM
[ in reply to I would say the same thing.... ] |
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There is. Nothing intrinsically evil about Trump. He has aoud mouth, but his policies are responsible.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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His policies....
Feb 8, 2025, 8:13 AM
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You mean his policy of trying to overthrow an election that he KNEW he'd lost? You mean his policy of lying to America repeatedly during the pandemic? You mean his policy of screaming about illegal immigrants, while spending his first term making it harder for legal immigrants? You mean his policy of appointing a vaccine-denier to run the HHS? You mean his policy of pardoning people who attacked police on his behalf?
And what about his personal conduct? Bragging about sexually assaulting women. Fake university. Fake charity. Buying the silence of a porn-star. Being found liable of sexual abuse (i.e., rape).
The Evangelical Right has bought all of the above, and still wants to pretend that they have no issues reconciling that with their faith.
Good luck with that line.
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: His policies....
Feb 8, 2025, 10:28 AM
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I have no problem whatsoever with his governing. I do believe he won the last election. Everyone in Ga with half a brain saw the massive ballot harvesting fraud that went on.
The massive COVID absentee balloting that went on took away the security of the election. This time, no mass absentee ballots and Trump won in a landslide.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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Well, of course you believe he won. I already knew that.****
Feb 8, 2025, 7:40 PM
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Top TigerNet [31807]
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Rival Killer [3043]
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That's good stuff. :-)***
Feb 7, 2025, 3:57 PM
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Game Changer [1627]
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Re: I'd love for George Barna to do a survey.
Feb 7, 2025, 1:37 PM
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So Bret,
Where does the President assigning the new AG a task force to "eradicate anti-Christian bias" fall in the survey? I suppose I get what the intent is.....maybe. There are anti-Semitism groups and groups that fight against anti-Islamic beliefs. Why no anti-Christian? at least I think that's where they're going with it. But are any of the other religions "protected" specifically by the federal government? IDK.
I really don't know what to think about this. Much ado about nothing?
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Top TigerNet [29021]
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Not sure I understand your question.
Feb 7, 2025, 2:31 PM
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As I have said, I agree with 80-90% of Trump's political positions and policies. That is not my concern.
My concern is that Christians are making anyone who agrees with their political beliefs a "fine Christian person."
Liberals have convinced themselves that God is not opposed to abortion on demand and that God supports the LGBTQ+ agenda.
Conservatives have convinced themselves that Donald Trump is a "man of God" and a "strong believer."
1. God agrees with whatever my political positions are.
2. Anyone who agrees with my political positions is a follower of Christ.
Both statements are very dangerous, but I see them more and more common.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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I think we all could use a little humility....
Feb 7, 2025, 4:26 PM
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Whenever you vote for a politician or a political party, not every aspect of that person or platform is going to advance Christ's mission on this Earth.
I think for a few decades, a lot of Evangelicals were overly tied to the Republican party. Some of them have finally woken up to the reality of what they support, as opposed to the rhetoric of what they thought they supported. Some of them have had to twist themselves into a pretzel to try and keep their beliefs "aligned" with supporting Trump. I think Liberal Christians went through something similar, maybe after the Civil Rights movement, maybe before we saw the rise of the Evangelical right-wing, although I would've been too young at that time to notice it.
Personally, I've never voted for any politician as part of a religious stance.
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Top TigerNet [29021]
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I think it is way too common in both parties now.
Feb 7, 2025, 6:16 PM
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I know Christians who are Democrats who now insist the God supports abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, etc. They do so because the Democrat party supports it.
I grew up in the South. I lived through the Civil Rights 1960s. I was living in Alabama when MLK led the March in Selma. I knew people who were commonly called "yellow dog Democrats" meaning they would vote for a yellow dog as long as he was a Democrat.
I was around people who were Democrats because, "My daddy was a Democrat and his daddy was a Democrat and his daddy was a Democrat, so I'm a Democrat." (Their daddys and grandaddys were Democrats because "Lincoln freed the slaves.")
Today, I still know people in my generation (baby boomers) who are Democrats and have changed their political views because the Democrat party has changed its views. And, they have convinced themselves that God agrees with whatever the Democrat party says.
Now, since 2016, I have seen more and more people have the same attitude about Trump. Whatever he says or does is right. He is not to be questioned or doubted, but fully and blindly supported. It is way to close to the characteristics of a cult for my comfort.
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Rival Killer [3043]
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Interesting history for me....
Feb 7, 2025, 11:23 PM
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>>Now, since 2016, I have seen more and more people have the same attitude about Trump. Whatever he says or does is right. He is not to be questioned or doubted, but fully and blindly supported. It is way to close to the characteristics of a cult for my comfort.
That has certainly happened.
I was a Republican up until about 2015. I voted for the Bushes, and Dole and Romney, etc. I voted for GOP governors & senators & representatives. I bought into the power of tax cuts and low regulations and lower spending and I thought the Republicans were the pro-Democracy fiscally responsible party. I guess in retrospect, all of that small-government stuff was ########. I immediately knew in 2015 Trump was very dangerous, and I voted for Hillary in 2016, not because I liked her, but because she's less dangerous than Trump.
In any event, he has had a profound impact on the Evangelical right, and it's not good for this country or for the Kingdom of God.
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: Interesting history for me....
Feb 8, 2025, 4:54 AM
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Trump does a lot of mouth running, but his actual policies are good. He kept us out of war his first term.
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Top TigerNet [29021]
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If you believe America can survive under our Constitution...
Feb 8, 2025, 4:40 PM
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... while the culture is secular in nature and does not need leaders who seek God for wisdom and guidance, then your position is quite reasonable.
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National Champion [7118]
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Re: If you believe America can survive under our Constitution...
Feb 8, 2025, 6:39 PM
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Trump seeks God for guidance about as well as Bill Clinton did.
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