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Rock Defender [54]
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Why do you believe in God?
Oct 28, 2013, 11:19 PM
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I'm sorry if some of you are offended by the question, but if you think about it, it is quite miraculous that 90% of our country believes in something that not one person has ever seen.
Is that not amazing?
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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Not offended, it is a legitimate question.
Oct 28, 2013, 11:32 PM
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For me, having seen life and death many times, I am convinced we are not of our own. I won't Jesus beat you with a bible, it's just something you have to figure out on your own.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I am just curious
Oct 28, 2013, 11:35 PM
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why do you think your particular god is the "right" one?
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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I'm not positive my God is a right one, how could I be?
Oct 28, 2013, 11:55 PM
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Being of an Abrahamic faith, I can see merits across many interpretations of God's word. I can see value in the teachings of Buddha, the same in Lao Tzu, not a big fan of Confucius, but really...who am I to judge?
I am a guy trying to find my own path. As a 40 something year old, I haven't figured it all out and I don't think I ever will, I don't need to.
Jesus' teachings resonate with me the most and that is what I try to follow. Love, forgiveness, and understanding are important in every culture and they are tenets that I feel comfortable in teaching my children; tenets that can potentially provide a better world for us all to live in.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I'm not positive my God is a right one, how could I be?
Oct 29, 2013, 12:07 AM
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Well, don't all non-Christians go to Hell?
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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Don't know. I should hope not, but if I'm wrong
Oct 29, 2013, 12:12 AM
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so be it. I hope God accepts trashy liberal Methodists like myself and not only the fire and brimstone bible-beatin' folks.
If I am wrong, I will accept my fate.
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Rock Defender [54]
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My point is, can't you be a good human being
Oct 29, 2013, 1:02 AM
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and follow the teachings of the bible without believing someone turned water into wine?
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110%er [5156]
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Religion is very rarely about simply morality...
Oct 29, 2013, 8:20 AM
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although some on both sides would purport it to be.
It's about filling the irrevocable emptiness inside us attendant with being the only species on earth cognizant of the fact that we are absolutely going to die.
We're the only species on the planet that thinks about things like purpose and value even have terms like "good" and "evil."
Religion is an attempt to fill the gap and make sense of a world that very rarely does itself.
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All-TigerNet [10188]
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Re: My point is, can't you be a good human being
Oct 29, 2013, 11:00 AM
[ in reply to My point is, can't you be a good human being ] |
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The Bible states that you don't get to heaven by doing good deeds. Though that is confusing at times, the message as I understand it, is that one has to believe ( and I'm not going to get into that ). But one has to believe in the trinity and if one does I expect they will do good deeds as well. It kinda goes hand in hand. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
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Rock Defender [54]
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The message of Christ is that you're not good enough.
Oct 29, 2013, 12:15 PM
[ in reply to My point is, can't you be a good human being ] |
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Christ and his sacrifice on the cross is the only thing that stands between you and a Holy righteous God. Even on your best, most altruistic day, your heart is working for itself.
It is only when we are completely broken that we can realize that we need a Savior.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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As to the first question, Why not? For your 2d question,
Oct 29, 2013, 7:59 AM
[ in reply to I am just curious ] |
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however, I think you're missing something.
Most people who profess to believe in God, believe there is only one. So, the question should relate more to one's "religion", as in, "how do you know your system/religion/ideology is the right one?" hth.
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Historian [3859]
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because all the other ones suck
Oct 30, 2013, 1:37 PM
[ in reply to I am just curious ] |
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lol I keed I keed
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Oculus Spirit [97950]
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Because there is never an answer, only more questions.
Oct 28, 2013, 11:55 PM
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At some point you just have to believe in some sort of God because there are questions with no other answer. God, quite frankly, is what separates us from the rest of the animal world. If you were an atheist, and simply believed when we die we rot, then there is no motivation to act like anything other than an animal, and that is not to act human.
Knowing there is a God to guide your actions, and your concept of good and bad, and how you live your life, is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. God IS what makes us human, and following His word IS what makes civilized societies flourish. Ever wonder why totalitarian states and leaders shun religion? Think about it.
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CU Medallion [54759]
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I dont think the last sentence of the 1st paragraph could've
Oct 29, 2013, 12:00 AM
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been any further off. The next sentence is a close second.
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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Prodigal's gonna git ya tomorrow, bro.***
Oct 29, 2013, 12:05 AM
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CU Medallion [54759]
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;)***
Oct 29, 2013, 12:14 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Legend [18026]
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Let's see here:
Oct 29, 2013, 12:42 AM
[ in reply to Because there is never an answer, only more questions. ] |
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God of the gaps Fallacy?
have to believe in some sort of God because there are questions with no other answer
Check.
Religion is where morality comes from.
Knowing there is a God to guide your actions, and your concept of good and bad, and how you live your life, is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom
Check.
Weird History perspective?
following His word IS what makes civilized societies flourish. Ever wonder why totalitarian states and leaders shun religion?
Check.
These are not good arguments and need to be retired by all religious individuals.
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All-In [40970]
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Rock Defender [54]
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CU Guru [1744]
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That exposes the need for religious freedom
Oct 30, 2013, 3:09 PM
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The problem shared by both atheistic and theocratic regimes is the suppression of religious freedom. A significant problem the US is having in the Middle East is in trying to encourage democracies without first encouraging the culture of religious freedom necessary for democracies to flourish.
Thomas Jefferson, who was certainly not a Christian in any traditional sense, had it right when he said that "religious freedom is the most effective anodyne against religious dissension".
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Rock Defender [54]
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Do you know what else Jefferson said?
Oct 30, 2013, 3:10 PM
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PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA! PERGOLA!
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110%er [5156]
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I hope you realize that this is a remarkably
Oct 29, 2013, 8:26 AM
[ in reply to Because there is never an answer, only more questions. ] |
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simplistic and honestly, simple-minded conclusion. Not saying YOU'RE simple-minded, but the argument from Christian apologetic from morality is nearly as dubious as the Atheist argument about 9/11, the Crusades, etc.
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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On an obtuse note, I've never seen the wind...
Oct 29, 2013, 12:02 AM
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but I believe in it. I've never seen gravity...but I believe in it.
In some things, a certain amount of faith is required.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: On an obtuse note, I've never seen the wind...
Oct 29, 2013, 12:10 AM
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So you believe there is someone watching everything you do? Why don't you believe in Zues or Nike?
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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Possibly, I couldn't really tell you definitively.
Oct 29, 2013, 12:15 AM
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Who says I don't, however, the teachings of Zeus and Nike have never seemed that prevalent or relevant.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Possibly, I couldn't really tell you definitively.
Oct 29, 2013, 12:21 AM
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That's not really an argument for the existence of your god.
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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Why should I have to argue for the existence of
Oct 29, 2013, 12:28 AM
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my God, am I on trial? Faith in God is something I have and that cannot be argued. Like I said, I'm not all fired sure that my path is the "right" one, but it is the one I'm discovering everyday. I choose to follow what makes sense to me.
What you believe in or have faith in is your decision.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Why should I have to argue for the existence of
Oct 29, 2013, 1:14 AM
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I am just confused as to why people cannot live fulfilling, charitable lives without believing in a higher power that has never definitively revealed himself to any of His followers.
I respect anyone who is a good person, because that is what the world needs. I do not to expect to convert anyone, but do you really think people would buy into the Bible and Christianity if it wasn't pounded into their heads since they were toddlers?
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Rock Defender [54]
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I'm confused as to how anyone could be
Oct 29, 2013, 10:59 AM
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a SCU fan too......explain that one !
seriously
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CU Guru [1723]
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You're using the same arguements the Jews used to kill Jesus
Oct 29, 2013, 12:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why should I have to argue for the existence of ] |
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They asked for signs and then Jesus came, did miracles and said he was from the Father...God incarnate. Even with ample evidence people still didn't beleive and had him crucified. Why do you think that people today would be any different?
And to your first point, you can live a great life and be a great person without reliegion...no doubt. But when this vapor of an existence ends...what then? The Bible doesn't have a standard for "good". It has a standard of belief or non-belief. Too simple right? Doesn't make sense to us? Who can know the mind of God?
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CU Medallion [54759]
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I don't question (or judge) anyone's beliefs
Oct 29, 2013, 12:11 AM
[ in reply to On an obtuse note, I've never seen the wind... ] |
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however, both wind and gravity, while 'invisible', are rooted in physics and science, and have complete 100% verifiable explainations....
as for the above stuff, I'd guess you could call me an atheist, however I'd say i'm an indifferent one at that - I'm completely for freedom of religion, people choosing to believe what they want - it's just not my thing nor do I broadcast it. But don't tell me (not you) I'm an relegated to animal status because of it, or have no other basis for determining what's wrong and what's right
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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Dguar makes a good point. A religious affiliation ,
Oct 29, 2013, 12:20 AM
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or lack of one, doesn't make a person stupid.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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CU Guru [1989]
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Re: Why do you believe in God?
Oct 29, 2013, 1:06 AM
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And now am a Christian. In the Bible it says "God will have mercy on you." The reason I say that is not because I'm condemning you, I'm not. I brought it up because I've learned that God can give me a perfect love that only he can give. Through meditation & prayer if you want to hear God you can. It takes tuning everything else out & connecting with God on the ultimate spiritual level. I know God see's all of my failures & screw-ups, but after all of that I can pray & speak to God & he forgives me every single time. That's how God gives a perfect love. We screw God over every single day, that's what sin is. We fall short of his grace every single day, but if you want to talk to him he will always be there to heal, encourage & guide you to being the best you can be. I'm an awful Christian & I believe anyone who says they're not an awful Christian is delusional. As a Christian I don't think that God Iron-fistedly sends a person's soul to hell for enternal damnation. I do however believe that after we die we're gonna have to answer for everything we've ever thought or done. "Hell" is essentially being separated from God. If you know God I believe you have a shot of being allowed in & if you didn't then I think that chance to get to know him still exist on the other side.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Why do you believe in God?
Oct 29, 2013, 1:22 AM
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Thank you for your well thought out response.
I have to ask an obvious question, though: where is God when people suffer everyday? Why does he let kids die of starvation while I am in the grocery store?
Also, what happens to people that have never been exposed to God? Do they go to Hell?
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CU Guru [1989]
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Re: Why do you believe in God?
Oct 29, 2013, 2:38 AM
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It says that people who are not exposed will be saved for the simple fact of not knowing. Your other question was one that I always asked my Christian friends & sometimes their answers turned me off because they seemed a bit harsh. I'll also say that I had to look up the chapter & verse, but John 16:33 states (this is Jesus talking) "You will have suffering in this world." He flat out told us the truth & said there will be suffering on earth. Why? I can honestly say I don't know. The fact that their are people suffering means there's an opportunity for someone to be able to help them. Obviously, I can't feed every hungry person, but we as people could. However, to make another point in the Bible it also says a man with nothing who gives something to another person has given all he's got. Therefore a man with 10 billion dollars who gives away 9 billion will not be given the same reward as the poor man who gave everything he had.
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Hall of Famer [21594]
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This is complete bullcrap.
Oct 29, 2013, 9:53 AM
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Where does it say those who don't know get an eternity to heaven?
If that's the case it would make logical sense to abort all babies so their souls can spend eternity in heaven and not ever have to worry about hell.
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Legend [17967]
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No, it would make more sense for God not to
Oct 29, 2013, 9:31 PM
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reveal Himself at all. The Bible says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever would believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
Condemnation is already in the earth and all who are born to it. No one escapes simply because they never heard of God. If that we true, and God sent His Son anyway, then He intended for multitudes to die in eternal damnation. That is not the God of the Bible.
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110%er [5298]
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Re: Why do you believe in God?
Oct 29, 2013, 2:05 AM
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I had a revelation of sorts back in 2005. I was not a believer, though I had been raised a Christian by my parents. While serving in Iraq, my squad was pinned down in an open field by machine gun fire on Dec 15th, 2005, the night of national elections in Iraq. That guy on the machine gun had us right where he wanted us. We had no cover, and were literally face down in the dirt as rounds were whizzing by inches from us.
I don't know how long we were there, as I think in a moment like that every person just kind of loses their grasp on time, but it felt like at least 30 seconds. During those moments, I felt the presence of God with us, and I no longer feared death. Not one of the four of us were struck by a bullet. I don't know how to describe it, and I definitely don't expect anyone who hasn't felt it to understand the feeling, but it changed me and the way I view life. In short, that is why I believe in God.
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CU Guru [1989]
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Thank you for your service & God Bless!!! Go Tigers!***
Oct 29, 2013, 2:39 AM
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All-In [40970]
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Why do you suppose God chose for you to live
Oct 29, 2013, 3:42 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why do you believe in God? ] |
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and others to die that were in the same predicament that you were in?
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CU Guru [1989]
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That's not for him to answer***
Oct 29, 2013, 3:55 AM
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All-In [40970]
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Yes it is, that is why I asked for his opinion
Oct 29, 2013, 4:32 AM
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or does your religion tell others how they are supposed to think and answer questions?
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CU Guru [1989]
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No, but you asking him why God chose him
Oct 29, 2013, 5:02 AM
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to live in not for him to answer, it's for God to.
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All-In [40970]
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I asked him why he supposed God chose him
Oct 29, 2013, 5:59 AM
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Would it upset you if somebody answered a question about their belief in their God even if it might not agree with your belief?
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110%er [9120]
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I don't see any way he could answer it
Oct 29, 2013, 8:33 AM
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In junge language:
Well, duh, might as, might as well ask why is a tree good? Why is the sunset good? Why are ##### good? Man, firecrackers, ya stick 'em in mailboxes, you drop 'em in toilets, shove 'em up bullfrogs #####.
- Joe Dirt
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Rock Defender [54]
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Thank you for your service.
Oct 29, 2013, 9:19 AM
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I thunk the poster asked an obvious question. If you would have been hurt, would you be grateful God didn't let you die? Well, what was he thinking when he saved your partner from injury but killed your other partner.
It seems to me you are mistaking good fortune with a miracle.
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110%er [9120]
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I'm not really mixing anything up
Oct 29, 2013, 9:51 AM
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The question was asking to interpret God's intentions, which I don't think can be answered.
Also, that's not me in the sig pic. It's just a funny one I found years back and put as my sig. You're not the first to think it's me though, so I should probably add a disclaimer.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I'm not really mixing anything up
Oct 29, 2013, 10:23 AM
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I am not asking anyone to interpret God's intentions, because like you said, that would not be possible.
However, frankly, his intentions are quite f'd up.
If rape and murder are part of God's plan, then he is one sick individual. I know the common response is that "He works in mysterious ways" but why does he do that? If he is omniscient and omnipotent, why does he let Hurricane Katrina destroy the lives of millions?
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110%er [5156]
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To the contrary, though...
Oct 29, 2013, 10:47 AM
[ in reply to I'm not really mixing anything up ] |
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the poster, whose service I do respect, is the one that put God's intentions on the table.
He is the one who said he felt the peace of God, and insinuated that God intervened to save him and his friends.
The problem with many Christians is the bubble of self-importance that they surround themselves in in terms of God's will and divine intervention.
Had a friend on Facebook last year who said that he prayed for protection from a severe thunderstorm and then watched in awe as it split on the radar. (Apparently his neighbors didn't pray hard enough).
When bad things happen to good people, God's will is mysterious and shrounded in the ethereal and the otherwordly. When you got your promotion however, or your house was spared moderate property damage, there wasn't anything mysterious about it; God was your homie.
I have a much higher regard for those Christians who view prayer as A) an exercise in obedience, solemnity, humility, and meditation and B) Leave at least the slightest air of mystery to the relationship between God and man.
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110%er [9120]
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I don't subscribe to that type of thinking
Oct 29, 2013, 12:15 PM
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Re: your friend on FB.
What I took from the poster was that feeling the "presence of God" was related to "no longer fear[ing] death" and not in terms of intervention.
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CU Guru [1989]
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110%er [5298]
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Re: Why do you suppose God chose for you to live
Oct 29, 2013, 10:38 AM
[ in reply to Why do you suppose God chose for you to live ] |
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I don't think anyone can divine God's intentions. I don't think I am special or anything, I just thought I would relate why it is I believe in God. I have lost 7 good friends to the war on terror, and every day I wish it would have been me instead of them. Each and every one of them were better men than me.
As far as interpreting it as good luck or coincidence, I was in a few situations in which I could have or should have been killed if not for some good luck, yet that was the only time I ever believe I have felt the presence of God. Like I said before, if you haven't experienced it before, I definitely don't expect you to understand. It's not something I would have believed if I hadn't experienced it myself.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I do not.
Oct 29, 2013, 7:54 AM
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And way more than 10% of the population does not as well.
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CU Medallion [58642]
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Several reasons.
Oct 29, 2013, 9:40 AM
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First, I was raised in a Christian home and was taught from day one to believe in God. While that does not mean I should believe in God, or mean that I could not choose not to believe, it probably has an impact at a deeper level than I can comprehend.
Secondly, while there are very reasonable arguments against the existence of God, I find it very reasonable to believe that God does exist. It makes sense - to me.
Thirdly (and this may be related to or due to #1), I want to believe. I like believing.
There was a time in my young adult life that I did not believe. I considered all of the very reasonable arguments against God's existence and decided I could not believe. Then, as I got older, I began to pay attention to my intuition and my deepest feelings, and came to believe that they were just as "true" and deserved consideration along side my limited reasoning abilities, which in turn caused me to re-think the whole thing.
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All-TigerNet [10188]
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I was stuck in a situation that would have resulted in death
Oct 29, 2013, 10:50 AM
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I looked for a way out and did not have a plan... I couldn't see it. I was still stuck.
Finally, I prayed and almost immediately I saw a way down. I still had to work at it, but eventually it worked out.
Before my prayer, I did not see my options even though they were right before me. After my prayer however, some things seemed like a better path that not evident before.
I'm no angel, but I am here today because of that prayer! God helped me find a way! Believe it or not, but I'll never forget that event. I would have died!
True story bro
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Rock Defender [54]
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If God is omniscient and knows what will happen the future
Oct 29, 2013, 11:00 AM
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why do you have to pray?
And I am confident, while your prayer was being answered, someone else's in a similar situation, wasn't.
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All-TigerNet [10188]
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Re: If God is omniscient and knows what will happen the future
Oct 29, 2013, 11:11 AM
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That's a good question. To understand faith, without having it would be hard . People have been asking questions like that for 2000 years. It is hard to understand why one person dies and another lives. God has a plan!
But if someone tells you" I did not see a way out until I prayed", then perhaps there is something to it. I can only tell you what happened to me.
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Rock Defender [54]
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So the reasons given so far include:
Oct 29, 2013, 10:57 AM
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1) The teachings of the Bible resonate with me
2) There has to be something out there (which COULD be true, I admit)
3) Believing in Christ is the only way one can live a good life
4) I was raised that way. I just believe.
5) Bad things happen, but it is not my responsibility to question God
6) I have my doubts, but I don't want to be wrong when judgment comes, so I will adopt Christianity
7) I wasn't killed or hurt in a situation, so the Christian god must have protected me.
Does anyone see a problem here?
And before someone tells me to live and let live (which I generally agree with), is it not the least bit terrifying that our society relies so heavily on this stuff?
Don't get me wrong, I like what the Bible teaches, but it is not esoteric; I don't need the Bible to be a good person. I also can form my own opinions on social issues without the help of a book that was written thousands of years ago (the word of God).
I want everyone to know that I do not have problems with most religious people. However, when people try to "save" me from eternity in hell, I have issues with that. I also have issues when people pick and choose things they like to believe in the Bible. If you think my gay brother-in-law shouldn't be able to get married, don't pick out some ambiguous verse from the Bible to strengthen your argument.
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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Re: So, you really just asked why people believe in God,
Oct 29, 2013, 11:02 AM
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so you could say you don't care but you don't really want to hear about it?
You're in the right place...
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All-In [26968]
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No matter what reason people give,
Oct 29, 2013, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to So the reasons given so far include: ] |
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You're not going to like it. This is the reason I didn't answer. What was your point in asking the question? It seems to be that you are trying to convince people that living with a belief in God is harmful to them, and/or to society. It also seems to me that you don't like it when someone does the same thing to you, only the converse.
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110%er [5156]
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You're confusing reasons people believe with why
Oct 29, 2013, 11:10 AM
[ in reply to So the reasons given so far include: ] |
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people believe. They're different questions with entirely different answers. I'm not trying to be glib.
If you ask for reasons, you're asking for contingencies, syllogisms, and logical explanations for internal convictions.
For better or for worse, that's not really the way faith naturally operates. Faith, as I said in a post above, is a response to some basic truths about the human condition, namely
A) we're going to die and we know it
B) we want to know there is a point to this thing we call life, given the immutable truth of point A
C) we want to know who we are
The "reasons" you're asking for are post hoc rationalizations.
Asking for reasons for faith is sort of like asking a parent why they love their child. They could provide a laundry list of "reasons" (He is sweet, he is kind, he is compassionate, he is smart, ad infinitum), but all the parents in here know that they didn't make the choice to love their child.
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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I really don't see a problem. What motivates people
Oct 29, 2013, 11:10 AM
[ in reply to So the reasons given so far include: ] |
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to have faith in God is their own business. I don't have to agree with any of them. I don't have to label anyone a fool for not sharing my beliefs. It is not the least bit terrifying to me that the majority of people in this world subscribe to some religious belief. Why should it bother you?
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110%er [5298]
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Re: So the reasons given so far include:
Oct 29, 2013, 11:15 AM
[ in reply to So the reasons given so far include: ] |
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I'm guessing you are referring to me in number 7, so I will respond.
I don't think I am a Christian in any kind of traditional sense, and I know I surely wasn't saved for being a good Christian. While I do believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, there are a lot of places where I disagree with modern Christianity. For instance, I think everyone, except for possibly the most evil people (Hitler, etc.), go to heaven when they pass.
Too many things are solely based on our human makeup for me to think that many people are going to hell in the afterlife. A lot of people are convinced gays are going to hell, but I am not. I think being gay is likely something people have in their genetic makeup somewhere, and it would be ridiculous for them to be born to go to hell.
I don't think one has to even be a Christian to get into heaven. Religion is extremely regional in the world, and I just don't see someone dying and going to hell because they were born in India and are Hindu, or were born in Saudi Arabia and are Muslim.
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All-TigerNet [10188]
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Re: So the reasons given so far include:
Oct 29, 2013, 11:18 AM
[ in reply to So the reasons given so far include: ] |
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You can't pick and choose or select what fits your life style.
And you can't add to or take away from Christianity.
Just as you can't get away with telling your boss you will do this but not that.
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110%er [5156]
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Humbly report, sir...
Oct 29, 2013, 11:22 AM
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there are something like 25,000 Christian denominations (maybe be).
Seems like an awful lot of picking and choosing; unless you're saying that you've found the one true version.
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All-TigerNet [10188]
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Re: Humbly report, sir...
Oct 29, 2013, 11:25 AM
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Most have three or four things in common amiright.
My son's mom is baptist and I'm methodist. We see some things differently but we have commonality too. Those things are what make us Christians.
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110%er [5156]
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That's true.
Oct 29, 2013, 11:26 AM
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Simply pointing out that there is quite a bit of picking and choosing, at least on the periphery.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I was genuinely curious
Oct 29, 2013, 11:49 AM
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It is amazing to me that something that should be cut and dry like how to achieve everlasting life, is up to so much interpretation.
Do people not question the decision to spend hours a week at church? Can't you experience that type of camaraderie and charity without threatening non-believers with eternity in an awful place?
You were right; I posted this with a slanted point of view. For years, I have been looking for reasons to believe in God (I was raised in a Christian household) but couldn't find one.
It is just my wish that some people would think critically about things. And I am not inferring religious people are not intelligent, but they do one heck of a job a compartmentalizing things.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Faith cannot be quantified.
Oct 29, 2013, 12:04 PM
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It is jumping off of the side of the pool knowing your dad will catch you.
CS Lewis went for years looking for a reason to believe in God as well. Might want to look at his life and what he found to be helpful.
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CU Guru [1723]
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Rock Defender [54]
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I fail to see your argument.
Oct 29, 2013, 2:44 PM
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Richard Simmons is an exercise guru, not a religious guru.
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Legend [17967]
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I must have missed it, but I didn't see anywhere that you
Oct 29, 2013, 9:40 PM
[ in reply to I was genuinely curious ] |
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asked how to obtain eternal life.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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truthfully, i don't know what i believe. there are more days
Oct 29, 2013, 4:56 PM
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when i believe in God. there are some days that i don't. but i don't think that a belief in God has much to do with being a christian or a muslim or a jew. one of the most faithful people i have ever known is my dad and he has no religion. he was raised a muslim and married a baptist. he's probably been inside a church or mosque no more than a few dozen times, and when he's done so it's been for others and not for himself. but i know that he has a very deep faith in God. he prays and talks to God on a daily basis. so i think it's a very individualized thing. no church, no building, no book, no pastor, priest or whatever stands between a person and God. it's a direct connection. if you want it.
as for me, like i said, there are days when i strongly believe and days when i have doubts. i watched my kids being born and found it impossible to deny. but i watch the daily news and wonder where he is.
so i don't really have an answer for you. but i also doubt you are sincere in asking the question anyway. rather i think you are just enjoying making fun of people for what they choose to believe. which is just about as intolerant as it comes. if i'm wrong, i apologize.
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110%er [9086]
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because of the blessings that i have received***
Oct 29, 2013, 8:33 PM
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CU Guru [1744]
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Re: Why do you believe in God?
Oct 29, 2013, 10:37 PM
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> I'm sorry if some of you are offended by the
> question, but if you think about it, it is quite
> miraculous that 90% of our country believes in
> something that not one person has ever seen.
>
> Is that not amazing?
First, you say that no one has ever seen God. The contemporaries of Jesus Christ believed He was God incarnate. You are begging the question of the truth of Christianity by the way you phrased the question. The historical reliability of the Gospels is another topic that would be a discussion of its own and I won't address further here.
Thus, I will answer the question as if you had phrased it by saying that "Why do you believe in God that you personally have not seen?" In short, God is the best explanation of the reality that I see and experience every day. Let me explain....
Here are some facts.
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. The physical properties and constants governing the universe are finely tuned to support the existence of life. There are dozens of properties that if they changed by an infinitesimal percentage, complex life could not exist anywhere in the universe.
4. There exist objective moral values. All people recognize that honesty is better than dishonesty, courage is better than cowardice, love is better than hate.
5. There is design present in the universe. Just looking at the encoded information in DNA. In all human experience, any time there exists complex, specific information, intelligence is the source.
6. Man can understand laws that govern the universe.
When you look at the two options - God exists / God does not exist - the existence of God is a much better explanation of the facts. Also, if you except the other option - God does not exist, you are selecting a materialistic view of the world that would have to go something like this...
1. In the beginning there is nothing, then the nothingness produced something.
2. At some later point, by accident/time/chance, the something produced unconscious life.
3. At some later point, again by accident/time/chance, the unconscious life produced conscious life.
Given that materialistic origin, why would we believe that our thoughts and experiences about reality are actually true for anything other than those functions necessary for survival (eating, fleeing, fighting, reproducing)? It would be a coincidence to a point of a practical mathematical impossibility that the world would exist and humans evolve independently in such a way that we could actually discover/understand the operational parameters of the universe.
So, I ask why do you not believe in God when evidence for His existence is manifest so prominently in both the natural world around you and the immaterial world of your mind and soul with which you have direct access every day?
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110%er [5156]
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Re: Why do you believe in God?
Oct 30, 2013, 9:05 PM
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1) Yep.
2)You have no idea what the "beginning" was, what it entails, how many universes there are, etc.
3)This is one of the worst fallacies of the "Intelligent" Design apologists; you cannot calculate probability when the number of potentials is not known. If I had a hand of four playing cards, you would tell me that you know the probability that I was dealt four Aces. In actuality, you do not unless you know all the other cards in the deck. Maybe there are three Aces in the deck, and the probability is actually zero. Or maybe it's a deck of all Aces, the probability is 1 (100%).
You have no idea if the Universe's "finely tuned" (again, see your presuppositional projections of design in your supposedly objective analysis)constants could have been any other way. We don't know (again, I'm repeating myself) how universes are made, and so we have no idea if there is any other way for a universe to be. Maybe there isn't. Or maybe there are billions of universes, all with different physical constants, creating flat universes, closed universes, open universes, all expanding, contracting at different rates, some providing life, some not. You simply cannot pull this obtuse "probability" card.
#4) Morality is an entirely different conversation. We could talk about whether objective morality really exists in the same way that laws of nature exist. That'd be an interesting conversation given what we know about different cultures over the history of humanity. I think I'd just let you google "Euthyphro's dilemma." Is God good because he is God, and whatever he does is good? Or is God good because he does good things, in which case he is NOT the standard? Either way you're faced with a pretty troublesome case. If God could mutilate a million kittens and it'd be good merely because he did it, well, there is nothing objective (your word) about that. On the other hand, if God is good just because he always does good things, then he is not the "objective" standard that you seek. Morality is a tough card to play for "evidence" of God.
5) There isn't design present in the universe. We've covered this topic ad nauseum on this board, but there are very plausible, and even labratory confirmed notions about how chemistry can turn into biology-- through chemical and mechanical mechanisms the base acids become trapped via semi-permeable lipid membranes and form patterns that become advantageous for the lipid vesicle. There is a really good YouTube vid on it if you're really interested.
6) We can understand some of the laws, yes, but I'm not seeing how this is evident of God.
----------
1)As I established below, as counterintuitive as this sounds, it actually, in terms of Physics, is demonstrable. Again, check out virtual particles, dark matter, and dark energy.
2) Again, you're talking about chemistry becoming biology, and it is absolutely possible.
3) Evolution. And lots of it.
And I'd again like to repeat, to you, and to all those that think I'm being a D-bag, that I'm not trying to tell anyone not to believe in God. Or that there isn't a God.
What I'm telling you is what I've said all along in this thread-- you've sought out rationalizations for what you already hold to be true. You believe. Why? Because you're a believer, that's why. There isn't a thing wrong with it. These "evidences" that you're shown are really just puzzle pieces you've squeezed into your working model of how the universe works.
But it doesn't prove God. It's not even really evidence for God.
I never thought I'd say it, but to me, the best "evidence" for God comes by way of people who demonstrate remarkable changes in their lives and appear to have seen God experientially.
I'll repeat what I said earlier in the thread; asking a believer why they believe is like asking a parent why they love their child. They could come up with a list of (probably biased) reasons, but to be honest, it's sort of silly. They love their children because it's inbuilt, and to them, it's nearly insulting to ask them to validate it to begin with.
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Rock Defender [54]
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If you think I know how the universe was created,
Oct 29, 2013, 11:09 PM
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I have no idea. Personally, I am ok with that and don't feel the need to search for solace in religion.
There could be a creator, I'm not sure. However, people have been discussing this subject for years, and I don't think there is any overwhelming evidence to conclude one god exists over another.
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CU Guru [1744]
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Re: If you think I know how the universe was created,***
Oct 29, 2013, 11:26 PM
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CU Guru [1744]
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Re: If you think I know how the universe was created,
Oct 29, 2013, 11:40 PM
[ in reply to If you think I know how the universe was created, ] |
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> I have no idea. Personally, I am ok with that and
> don't feel the need to search for solace in religion.
>
>
> There could be a creator, I'm not sure. However,
> people have been discussing this subject for years,
> and I don't think there is any overwhelming evidence
> to conclude one god exists over another.
The fact that the universe exists and had a beginning guarantees that there is creator - the question is whether you will rationally believe that the universe was created by a supernatural entity outside of time and space or whether you will irrationally believe that the universe created itself.
Regarding which understanding of God, the existence and beginning of the universe points to something outside the universe which must have the following properties: non-contingency, eternal, powerful, immaterial, and personal.
These characteristics listed above are also the ones that exist in the Creator God of the universe as understood by the three monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The pantheistic religions would excluded from consideration as they believe that God exists within are is self-existent with the universe and as such would be result again with the absurdity of God creating himself.
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CU Guru [1744]
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Re: If you think I know how the universe was created,
Oct 29, 2013, 11:43 PM
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> > I have no idea. Personally, I am ok with that and
> > don't feel the need to search for solace in
> religion.
> >
> >
> > There could be a creator, I'm not sure. However,
> > people have been discussing this subject for
> years,
> > and I don't think there is any overwhelming
> evidence
> > to conclude one god exists over another.
>
> The fact that the universe exists and had a beginning
> guarantees that there is creator - the question is
> whether you will rationally believe that the universe
> was created by a supernatural entity outside of time
> and space or whether you will irrationally believe
> that the universe created itself.
>
> Regarding which understanding of God, the existence
> and beginning of the universe points to something
> outside the universe which must have the following
> properties: non-contingency, eternal, powerful,
> immaterial, and personal.
>
> These characteristics listed above are also the ones
> that exist in the Creator God of the universe as
> understood by the three monotheistic religions of
> Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The pantheistic
> religions would excluded from consideration as they
> believe that God exists within are is self-existent
> with the universe and as such would be result again
> with the absurdity of God creating himself.
The last sentence is a train wreck. It should have read "The pantheistic religions would be excluded from consideration as they believe that God exists within the universe, and as such, would require the absurdity of God creating Himself."
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110%er [5156]
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Why is the notion of God creating himself
Oct 30, 2013, 8:22 AM
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ludicrous, but the concept of an infinite, perpetual God who transcends all not ludicrous?
Again, the certainty with which you view things is honestly a little funny.
You discuss the very fundamental elements of nature, God, and the unknown as if it were a problem on the GRE.
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CU Guru [1744]
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Re: Why is the notion of God creating himself
Oct 30, 2013, 1:29 PM
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> ludicrous, but the concept of an infinite, perpetual
> God who transcends all not ludicrous?
>
> Again, the certainty with which you view things is
> honestly a little funny.
>
> You discuss the very fundamental elements of nature,
> God, and the unknown as if it were a problem on the
> GRE.
For any being/entity - God, man, universe - to create itself, it would require that being/entity to exist before it existed. That is a logical impossibility - just like married bachelors and round squares.
Alternately, God by traditional definition is eternal and self-sufficient (non-contingent). Even if someone doesn't agree that God exists, they can still agree on the definition. Unicorns don't exist, but when referring to unicorns, everyone can agree that it is a horselike creature with a horn. The question for the person seeking truth is whether there is sufficient evidence to trust that a transcendent, eternal, non-contingent being exists.
I'm glad that you find humor that I have reasons for what I believe. I guess your reference to the GRE is because I am employing logic and analysis. God is beyond our reason, but he is not in opposition to capacity to reason.
I find it humorous that Christians are frequently characterized as having "blind faith" or believing in something for which there is no evidence. Yet, when the several streams of evidence are provided for the existence of God, those in opposition retreat to the materialistic "blind faith" of their own.
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110%er [5156]
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1) You have no idea what I believe or don't believe,
Oct 30, 2013, 5:07 PM
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2) You've not offered any streams of evidence, as you adorably put it. You've proffered regurgitated apologetic from WLC and his ilk-- simplistic, sophomoric syllogisms that young Christians use as post hoc rationalizations for what they've already accepted a priori.
3)I'll repeat it again, the "evidence" (lulz) that you've shared from your autographed copy of The Case for Christ, adorable as it is, is NOT why you believe. Please don't do the pretentious bit of claiming that logic and reason led you to God. It didn't. You believe because it's in you to believe. And that is fine.
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110%er [5156]
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William Lane Craig, is that you?
Oct 30, 2013, 8:20 AM
[ in reply to Re: If you think I know how the universe was created, ] |
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NOTHING guarantees a creator. To say that the universe either precludes or includes a creator is to know exactly how it came to be, which you do not.
Perhaps the universe is riding the foam of a sea of multiverses. M-Theory has posited an interesting scenario about the origins of the universe. Or maybe God created it. Or maybe all of these are true, and these physical theories are merely the mechanism of the Creator.
One thing I know is that your certainty belies that you know little about what you're talking about.
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CU Guru [1744]
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110%er [5156]
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Not a compliment.
Oct 30, 2013, 5:03 PM
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Without being insulting, I'll just end this by saying that you clearly stopped trying to stay caught up on physics after getting a basic grasp of the Big Bang theory.
A lot has happened since then, dude. Modern physicists have even speculated that "nothing" isn't as "nothing" as we once thought. There are quantum fluctuations that occur in the vacuum of nothingness.
Long story short, we have just no clue how far the wormhole goes, so to speak, in regards to our universe. Until we do, you, WLC, or whatever Crossway apologist of the week you enjoy simply cannot say that the existence of the universe requires a creator. We can't say it precludes one, either.
Show some humility.
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110%er [5156]
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Two resources...
Oct 30, 2013, 8:11 PM
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First, I'd read Hawking's most recent book, because it discusses M-Theory in some relatively accessible terms.
Second, watch this video, when you have time. Now Krauss is an atheist, but it's not his a priori assumptions that I want you to pay attention to; it's two things in particular:
-We live in a flat universe with zero net energy
-This is the only model of a universe that could absolutely have sprung from nothing
-Things are constantly popping into existence from nothing (see "Virtual Particles)
-The vast majority of our universe's mass literally comes from nothing; dark energy and dark matter.
Now here is my point, as I originally intended it;
There is enough science, and enough mystery here, for both sides to show a little humility. First, as Krauss even admits near the end of his lecture, we have absolutely no idea what dark matter/energy is, or why it's there. His point about the fact that in 100,000 years, man will no longer be able to use observation and falsifiable science to deduce what we've deduced today is a poignant one. Science does have its limits.
But the inverse is true as well; despite William Lane Craig's laughably simplistic apologetic (The Cosmological Argument), we simply can't be sure that the mere existence of this universe proves there is a God. For one we could shred premise #1 to shreds, but I'll digress there. More importantly, we know that it is scientifically plausible for nothing to produce something, as counterintuitive as that may seem.
My point in this thread is not to tell you there isn't a God. My point is only to tell you that you're wasting your time trying to "prove" God. If I were a person of faith, I'd find it an entirely unnecessary endeavor.
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110%er [5156]
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110%er [5156]
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Re: Two resources...
Oct 30, 2013, 9:42 PM
[ in reply to Two resources... ] |
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And I said 100,000 years when it's actually 100 billion. My bad.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Again, a flying spaghetti monster
Oct 30, 2013, 12:22 AM
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could be in control of it all. I am comfortable with that, but common sense tells me that the one god I was brought up learning about is probably not the creator of the universe.
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CU Guru [1723]
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How often has your common sense led you down
Oct 30, 2013, 7:49 AM
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the wrong road? Depending on the little voice in our head may not be the best way to find truth.
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CU Guru [1744]
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I apologize for invading your bridge
Oct 30, 2013, 1:33 PM
[ in reply to Again, a flying spaghetti monster ] |
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I mistakenly thought that you were genuinely interested seeking truth. However, now that you have brought up the flying spaghetti monster idiocy, I know that you are just trolling Christians.
Enjoy your fun!
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Letterman [282]
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Because it's just stoopid enuf to be plausible***
Nov 1, 2013, 7:52 AM
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