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Clemson Conqueror [12006]
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For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
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Jan 3, 2025, 9:16 AM
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check out these 2000 - 2024 ratings for the Daytona 500 which I think is pretty indicative of what has happened to NASCAR and, I believe, could happen to college football. I do not know the breaking point, but at some juncture fans like myself will stop donating, stop buying tickets, and eventually lose interest. I don't know the answer, but I think it should start with the portal, tampering (which it seems only Jim Mora will address), scholarship numbers, etc. etc. When fans leave, I don't knwo that they will come back.
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Athletic Dir [1119]
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Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
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Jan 3, 2025, 9:21 AM
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If the Wild West, which is currently College Football isn't corralled soon, yes I could absolutely see that happening.
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Orange Immortal [62771]
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Colleges/University need to decide if they want to be legitimate institutions
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Jan 3, 2025, 9:48 AM
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of higher learning which field athletic teams consisting of legitimate students in pursuit of legitimate degrees, or if they are fine being a minor league for the NFL, fielding professional/semi-professional teams made up of the best athletes money can buy where academics are irrelevant.
I know it's hard with all of the $$$$$$$$ at stake, but at least make an effort to be honest and transparent, and admit it's all about the money, or grow a spine and commit to your stated purpose.
I don't know why colleges can't sit down with the NFL and work this out. Have a minor league for the NFL, completely separate from college football, which allows colleges to field teams consisting of legitimate students, which would still be huge business/$$$.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98638]
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^^ YES, totally agree or just support a PC, Furman or Davidson
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:04 AM
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Football team Who probably are still primary filled with amateur STUDENT/Athletes.
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Orange Immortal [62771]
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If you are a former Clemson student, would you rather pull for a team
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:13 AM
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made up of players who had a similar love for your school as you, and were having a similar experience as a college student at Clemson?
OR
A team made up of great athletes whose only connection to Clemson was the jersey they wore on Saturday?
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Athletic Dir [1119]
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Re: If you are a former Clemson student, would you rather pull for a team
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:23 AM
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I would rather a kid want to be at Clemson because he has passion for the school and believes its an honor to represent that school. I believe if you asked a lot of fans across the country, they would want the same thing. Sadly a lot these kids are chasing the dollar or the short term gain now.
One thing I think a lot of people are being naive about is, a lot of these kids were also paid under the table before whether you believe it or not. Now its just acceptable to talk about it. Nobody believed NIL would become what it is now. I'm fine with a kid making money off of himself. But this wild west and auctioning off to the highest bidder isn't what a lot of people across the country thought NIL would become. Eventually this will hurt the NFL product.
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Orange Immortal [62771]
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Some players have absolutely been paid under the table for decades.
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:30 AM
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No doubt. I have personally know athletes who struggled academically in HS but wound up playing at Furman. I knew athletes who were offered money and cars at other schools way back in the 70s. I agree, it's nothing new, it's just bigger and more in the open; but there is still a lot of double talk and dishonesty.
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Clemson Conqueror [12006]
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Re: If you are a former Clemson student, would you rather pull for a team
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:23 AM
[ in reply to If you are a former Clemson student, would you rather pull for a team ] |
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Great point, and I would guess even among students the vote would be about 50/50. I think what I liked about my experience at Clemson was getting to know the players, lifting weights in the weight room with them (the Weightlifting Club had a better weight room than the football team in the 60's), and living on the same dormitory as them ....... so you know how I would vote!
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Tiger Titan [48247]
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Football players have become very segregated from other students.
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:28 AM
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They have their own specific areas where they live, they have their own dining hall, they have their own study hall areas, etc. It's uncommon to see them on campus except for going to class.
How many football players use the main library? How many eat in regular dining halls? How many are in fraternities? The answer to all of these questions is very few.
Now, with players having increasing celebrity status, they have even less in common with regular students.
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Dynasty Maker [3147]
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Re: If you are a former Clemson student, would you rather pull for a team
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:30 AM
[ in reply to If you are a former Clemson student, would you rather pull for a team ] |
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I really dont understand this mindset.
How about you just let the individual decide where his heart is.
Is every student at Clemson in love with the school or are a lot of them there just to get a degree?
A lot of you seem to just assume that these players have selfish motivations.
You forget that college is setting them up for their future. Let them and their family decide what is best.
If that is transferring to another program so be it.
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Orange Immortal [62771]
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I'm all for freedom of choice for the individual. I'm also for doing what is
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:40 AM
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best for the sport, and being transparent and honest. Right now, we don't have that. Buying players who are not legitimate students is not good for the sport of college football. Players who are there primarily for the money are not good for college football. If that's what they want, the NFL, who ultimately benefits, should have a minor league for those who are not interested in or capable of getting a college degree. That insures the freedom of players to change and go to different teams, as well as the freedom for students to change schools while protecting the integrity and prosperity of college football.
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Dynasty Maker [3147]
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Re: I'm all for freedom of choice for the individual. I'm also for doing what is
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:20 AM
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I agree they should do what is best for the sport, while not denying basic rights to an adult. Players always should have been able to make money off of their own name. If that means millions of dollars, then so be it. It is not their fault that people are willing to fork out insane amounts of money to see them play.
I would say we have more transparency than we've ever had. Used to everything was done under the table. See Clemson in the 1980's.
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Clemson Conqueror [12006]
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Re: I'm all for freedom of choice for the individual. I'm also for doing what is
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:35 AM
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Primarily, this thread was not supposed to be about NIL. I have no problem for young men and women being able to legitimately make money from their NIL or actually working for it.
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Orange Immortal [62771]
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And none of that should require dishonesty, deception, or pretending.
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Jan 3, 2025, 12:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: I'm all for freedom of choice for the individual. I'm also for doing what is ] |
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I'm just offering a way to preserve traditional college football while still allowing young athletes to leverage their financial worth and play for whoever they want to (based on what they agree to).
For example, if a player isn't capable of doing college coursework, he should not be playing college football.
If a player is not actively attending college level classes and making satisfactory grades, he should not be playing college football.
If a player isn't a serious, capable college student, working toward a degree, he should not be playing college football.
If a player meets all of those requirements, they should be able to make money off of their NIL. They should not be strictly "paid to play" in the college realm. There should be an NFL minor league for that. All of that requires contracts with agreements and stipulations, as well as oversight by a "policing" body.
If a player signs an agreement with a college, they should be able to transfer out if they are not happy, but for the sake of the sport, there should be some consequence to discourage it, unless the terms of the contract were not met by the school. Or they could go the minor NFL league route.
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Dynasty Maker [3181]
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Scholarships are for one year at a time.
Jan 3, 2025, 4:24 PM
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Why is that difficult for some to understand?
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Game Day Hero [4480]
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Re: Scholarships are for one year at a time.
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Jan 3, 2025, 5:00 PM
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Not necessarily. There are multi-year scholarships which are minimum 2yrs long.
Next canard!?!
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Dynasty Maker [3526]
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Re: I'm all for freedom of choice for the individual. I'm also for doing what is
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Jan 3, 2025, 1:04 PM
[ in reply to I'm all for freedom of choice for the individual. I'm also for doing what is ] |
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All they would have to do is keep NIL and get rid of the unlimited/unrestricted transfer portal. Go back to the lose a year of eligibility rule. It doesn’t stop them from making money, and also makes them seriously consider before transferring.
I’m fine with the players making money off themselves during college, but they’ve transfer portal is unhinged.
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110%er [3963]
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Dynasty Maker [3181]
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Orange Blooded [2369]
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Re: If you are a former Clemson student, would you rather pull for a team
Jan 3, 2025, 12:58 PM
[ in reply to If you are a former Clemson student, would you rather pull for a team ] |
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I'm guessing that if the worst does happen and the kids end up being professional players club football will see a resurgence in quite a few schools where the players on the field are students first. I have a daughter who plays club rugby at App St and those games are a breath of fresh air. All about playing the game none of the other stuff.
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All-In [10893]
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Yessir. I'm all about the school spirit. I've always stayed to the last snap
Jan 3, 2025, 3:48 PM
[ in reply to If you are a former Clemson student, would you rather pull for a team ] |
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because these student-athletes give their all for my school - so unrelenting support was the least I could do.
I don't blame the kids. If someone is legally handing you money - take it.
But my connection to Clemson via its sport teams is quickly waning. The kids will soon be representing my school only because we outbid someone for their services. It's not the same...
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Game Changer [1891]
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Rival Killer [2663]
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Dynasty Maker [3181]
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That's ludicrous.
Jan 3, 2025, 11:18 AM
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NIL isn't paid by the school so it can't be tied to a degree.
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Rival Killer [2663]
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You are correct. My bad. Revenue sharing should be tied to it.***
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:20 AM
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Oculus Spirit [39212]
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LOL the NFL aint doing that.
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:53 AM
[ in reply to Colleges/University need to decide if they want to be legitimate institutions ] |
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They have a perfect setup. They have a feeder league from which they draw talent they don’t have to sink any money into ever. They don’t have to deal with any behavioral problems or drama they just come along in April and grab the best eligible players and plug them in. Zero incentive for them to set up a minor league that will 100% lose money without the built in fan bases college football has.
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Orange Immortal [62771]
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Of course not, as long as college football continues to be their minor league
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Jan 3, 2025, 12:34 PM
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whereby education is more or less irrelevant. If colleges and universities grow a spine, they could absolutely force a change.
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All-In [10916]
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Re: Colleges/University need to decide if they want to be legitimate institutions
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:32 AM
[ in reply to Colleges/University need to decide if they want to be legitimate institutions ] |
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The deterioration of the collegiate value proposition from ‘our purpose is to educate students - we’re willing to flunk out students who cannot or choose not to learn via our rigorous curriculum and grading practices’ -to- ‘our primary purpose is to grow our university’s monetary & physical assets via differentiating our university as an entertainment / consumer centric institution to attract consumers (aka students) is the culprit.
Money talks and BS walks.
Universities continue to provide rigorous academic majors, which is good. However, they have expanded their majors to what us 50+ year olds referred to as ‘crip’ majors. This expansion of ‘crip’ majors has attracted larger numbers of students who can choose from among many different universities to get the same useless degree. The differentiating factor between universities that offer plentiful crip majors is the ‘university experience (I.e., the amount of fun and good times)’ that the ‘student (I.e., consumer)’ can get.
As this trend away from academic centric / no ‘crip’ majors / strict grading guidelines’ to ‘students are consumers’ model evolved, so did the geometric expansion of funding for athletic programs.
Within the past 25 years, the sunk investment (irrecoverable expenditure of money) in athletic facilities had grown to the irreversible stage. No university with huge sunk costs in athletic facilities is going to ‘return to its academically virtuous’ past and walk away from those investments; this is especially true for those cases where the athletic facilities were purchased via a mortgage (as opposed to being purchased for cash out of endowment funds).
Thus, the addiction to the current ‘students as consumers’ philosophy of the big athletic conference schools. They are in too deep to just walk away. Therefore, they keep spending more and more new money on athletics, with short term investments in NIL payments to players becoming metaphorical fentanyl to the schools. Without legislation that forces all schools to limit their NIL expenditures to an ~ equal amount as the others, they will all spend whatever they can squeeze out of donors in hopes of surviving long enough to afford their next fix (I.e., ability to pay enough new NIL money for next year’s players).
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Orange Immortal [62771]
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It has and will go as far as we let it. It's a matter of integrity, and colleges
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Jan 3, 2025, 12:38 PM
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can fix it. Not saying they will by any means; almost certainly, they will go where the big money leads them, integrity, academics, and college football be ######.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [100748]
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I might know why the NFL doesn't intinate a semi-pro system.
Jan 3, 2025, 1:31 PM
[ in reply to Colleges/University need to decide if they want to be legitimate institutions ] |
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I don't believe it would be a money maker for them. They aren't going to mobilize something that big without a profit laying at the end of such an endeavor. Such a league would call for a draft and the salaries some of the college players are making rival pro rookie contracts.
I believe as soon as those in power figure out how to stop tampering and other forms of bidding wars they will.
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Varsity [127]
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Rival Killer [2781]
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Who is we?
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:10 AM
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To be perfectly honest, the players started this crap. That’s right, the players. Now, we can debate whether the players were greedy or if they do indeed deserve some slice of the pie for weeks… but the fact remains. The players caused this. It just goes to show how much money these schools were making off of them if they are able to shell out essentially millions of dollars to these kids now - all of a sudden.
And this will indeed be the end of college football as we know it unless it’s fixed.
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Clemson Conqueror [12006]
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Re: Who is we?
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:27 AM
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Well, the NIL is strictly a legal issue, and also separately I guess I will have to accept that the players will be paid by the school. However, at some point, regardless of whether the sports team is a revenue producer or not, something like a new Title Nine is going to emerge ..... maybe just for women's sports or all non-revenue sports for men and women. There is going to be so many unintended consequences that it will make your head spin. Just wait.
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Game Changer [1891]
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Re: Who is we?
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Jan 3, 2025, 12:12 PM
[ in reply to Who is we? ] |
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I have to disagree.
The schools and coaches have been feasting at the trough for years. When the players saw they are generating millions upon millions of dollars for exorbitant administrator and coaches salaries, I understand why they wanted a cut as well.
Has pay for play at the college level gotten out of hand...Yes. But so have coaches and administrator salaries, ticket prices, etc.
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Tiger Titan [48247]
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It's funny you mention NASCAR, because I saw someone with a NASCAR hat recently
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:24 AM
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and I realized it was the first one I had seen in years.
You used to see NASCAR stuff all the time, on hats, shirts, bumper stickers, etc.
Now? It's really uncommon.
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Paw Master [16418]
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Nascar popularity is inversely proportional to gamechicken success.***
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:29 AM
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Rival Killer [2836]
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IMO the issues are mainly because the NCAA is 100% toothless
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:30 AM
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Schools and players can do whatever they want, change whatever they want, with hardly any repercussions. You know what fixed the Wild West? The establishment and enforcement of the law, when people got tired of being screwed over by criminal activity.
It's weird to say but we need the sad, wet paper bag that is the NCAA to become strong and rein some of this stuff in. Don't like the idea, then call it something else but there needs to be something in charge. It'll inevitably become (more) corrupt of course, but hopefully we can get 5-10 years of decency before that happens.
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Orange Blooded [2506]
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Re: IMO the issues are mainly because the NCAA is 100% toothless
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:37 AM
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Conference Commissioners and school Presidents/BODs have blood on their hands too. Plenty of blame to go around. If the adult decision makers addressed these well known issues in the past, we may have been in a better place now.
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Dynasty Maker [3147]
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Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:34 AM
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I would love for you negative Nancy’s to find another sport to ##### about.
Playoff tickets are going for thousands of dollars bro.
You can pretty much go to a NASCAR race for free.
Dumb comparison.
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Oculus Spirit [39212]
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Shortsighted thinking is what got us here
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:56 AM
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So no surprise some can’t see what is coming.
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Dynasty Maker [3147]
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Re: Shortsighted thinking is what got us here
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:12 AM
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Short sighted?
Do you really think NIL hasn't been discussed for decades?
Where's the proof that college football is declining?
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All-In [10916]
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Re: Shortsighted thinking is what got us here
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:51 AM
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There is no proof if CFB decline, at least as far as TV ratings and cumulative income to college athletic departments are concerned.
Rather, there are signs that CFB is approaching a precipice.
As with most projections about an approaching precipice, the precise timing is almost never on the mark.
The qualitative indicators of a decline in interest of CFB comes first from the ‘also rans ‘ programs. Fans of those schools are losing interest in their own teams because they do not see their team being able to compete. With that sense of minimal excitement in CFB, they will gravitate towards spending their time and money doing something else. Even to those fans who live FB overall, they will gravitate towards watching NFL instead if CFB.
This change does not happen because of boycotts or similar short term actions by which anger is expressed. Rather, the change happens gradually.
Unless the NIL facade of paying players for their on-field exploits changes to a NIL in which the student athletes’ earnings are from demonstrable private enterprises seeking to utilizing the player’s name / image / likeness to improve their ROI, then the NIL facade will destroy the egalitarian-esque competitive nature of CFB that gives the majority of fans to believe that someday, somehow, their team will have a chance.
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Orange Immortal [62771]
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Yep!***
Jan 3, 2025, 12:51 PM
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Orange Immortal [62771]
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If the most important thing is making a bigger profit, then yes, college
Jan 3, 2025, 12:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: Shortsighted thinking is what got us here ] |
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football is in great shape today.
The thing is, if something doesn't change, it may not be in the near future. If fans remain just as enthusiastic as the sport continues to move away from legitimate student athletes who are loyal to their school, and closer to an ever-changing group of professionals merely wearing the uniform of a given school, then we're good.
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Dynasty Maker [3147]
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Re: Shortsighted thinking is what got us here
Jan 3, 2025, 3:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: Shortsighted thinking is what got us here ] |
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"Fans of those schools are losing interest in their own teams because they do not see their team being able to compete."
College football has always had a parity problem. That seems to be changing for the better.
Look at the players Deion Sanders was able to bring to Colorado because of NIL and the portal. They didn't make the playoffs but immediately were competitive.
So again, this just seems like more talking points and a sky is falling mentality, when there is really nothing to warrant it.
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Dynasty Maker [3181]
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Oculus Spirit [39212]
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When NASCAR started expanding out west
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Jan 3, 2025, 2:25 PM
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and abandoning the smaller tracks in the South that built the sport, their ratings and sponsorships were also through the roof. The money train was never going to end…until it did.
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Game Changer [1667]
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National Champion [7321]
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All-In [10178]
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Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:46 AM
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The game is the same great game if you stop listening to the false narratives and just watch. There could not have been a better game than the Texas-Arizona State game and the game last night was pretty doggone good as well.
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Hall of Famer [8400]
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LOL. Troll on troll.***
Jan 3, 2025, 11:14 AM
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Dynasty Maker [3181]
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That was your parents******
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:30 AM
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Clemson Icon [26996]
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Your's were archeologists...? Look what they found under a rock.***
Jan 3, 2025, 2:50 PM
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Dynasty Maker [3147]
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Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
Jan 3, 2025, 11:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football ....... ] |
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I think a lot of these people who complain are those that don't really watch the games. They are just social fans. They like to tailgate and post on Facebook that they are all in, but they don't even know what a first down is.
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Valley Protector [1465]
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Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
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Jan 3, 2025, 1:23 PM
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But that's ok too isn't it? My daughter doesn't understand what's going on half the time. But she loves it. She doesn't know why, she just does. Maybe there is no why. And I can say with all honesty and humility that as I have been watching Clemson football since the early 70's, I do not know a cover-2 when I see it. Don't know, don't care.
I think what people are getting at and what they feel is in danger is not necessarily the GAME itself. It's what the game means to them. And THAT'S what college football is really about. It's about seeing the Tigers run down the Hill. And all the other traditions at all the other schools that mean something to THEM. They want to be assured or at worse delusional, that the people on the field, representing THEM, feel the same way. And the indications are that they do not.
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Dynasty Maker [3447]
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Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:48 AM
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to blame!
And who is the money ESPN!
BIG 10 SEC commissioners and the presidents/trustees.
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Oculus Spirit [39212]
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Somewhat similar path too.
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Jan 3, 2025, 10:50 AM
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Ignoring what the die hard fans wanted to “expand” and court a new casual audience that was surely much larger. Turns out casuals are…well casual and they don’t spend money and time on your sport as willingly, no matter how many of them there are.
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Dynasty Maker [3181]
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NASCAR is unrelated to CFB******
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:03 AM
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Hall of Famer [8400]
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Your brain is unrelated to reality***
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:15 AM
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Dynasty Maker [3181]
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Your obsession with me is unrelated to rationality******
Jan 3, 2025, 11:31 AM
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Valley Protector [1465]
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Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
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Jan 3, 2025, 11:19 AM
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A fair comparison on some points. NASCAR suffered(s) from a number of things. Over saturation at a very high price was the first thing. I remember when they built extra levels on the back stretch of Charlotte Motor Speedway. At that time those were give or take $100. When I first went to Rockingham years ago (late 90's before they cut the race), tickets for turns were $90. By cutting the smaller traditional tracks, they undermined their market. The money players in that game wanted larger faster tracks at destinations other than Rockingham or N. Wilkesboro. They wanted tracks in Vegas and California. It wasn't too long before they tore down the stands in Charlotte. College football hasn't really felt that yet, but for schools out of the playoff business they will become the N. Wilkesboros of college football.
The other thing that harmed NASCAR was the lack of readily recognizable stars. They no longer had an Earnhardt-Gordon match-up to point to. I liken that to golf's rise and fall in popularity. For decades the media was in search of the "next Nicklaus". A lot came and went, but it wasn't until Tiger that golf truly had a player they could hang their hat on. I think college football has always had those programs that just about anyone can get behind. Alumni and fans alike. So they don't lack for those "stars". What they don't like is when it's the same ones, over and over. If the 4-team playoff had been someone other than Alabama and Clemson for the first 3 of 4, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.
While the college football schedule is limited to September-January I believe it too suffers from a little over-exposure. You can literally watch a college game from Tuesday-Saturday, with 3-4 games on several channels on any given Saturday. And then....how many bowl games? Thirty or so? What "they" have done, whomever "they is", is rob the viewer from the EVENT status that college football has always been. Now, it's just another game. Look what "they" did to Monday Night Football. Total misunderstanding of just what that was and what it meant to so many people. Now? It's an NFL game, just happens to be on a monday.
I think, like you mentioned, people will or can only go so far with their discretionary income. When that well runs dry, there will be another change.
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Clemson Conqueror [12006]
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Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
Jan 3, 2025, 3:26 PM
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Excellent post! Great points!
"It wasn't too long before they tore down the stands in Charlotte. College football hasn't really felt that yet, but for schools out of the playoff business they will become the N. Wilkesboros of college football."
How many years ago was it that schools like Clemson and Georgia Tech renovated their basketball arena and built less seats. How many people predicted that?
Message was edited by: TigerLinks®
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MVP [533]
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Re: For those who do not think we are killing college football .......
Jan 3, 2025, 11:57 AM
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I agree. There’s a Laffer Curve for CFB/NIL/TP out there somewhere just like there is for income taxes and NASCAR.
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110%er [3856]
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I already can't afford tickets or tailgating.
Jan 3, 2025, 12:36 PM
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If we didn't have family with tickets and tailgates, we'd be watching from a barstool or the sofa.
And yet I still love college football.
As it stands, I just take the good (history, rivalries, community) with the bad (lawyers and other greedy b*stards, broken NCAA governance, free agency).
Oh, and I keep it where it belongs: A fun diversion every Saturday in the fall. If ever it becomes a crappy, boring, over-hyped product like the NFL, I'll take up golf again.
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Rival Killer [2652]
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I agree, I've been making that point many places. CFB is going the way of NASCAR
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Jan 3, 2025, 12:43 PM
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by doing the same things.
I guess its just too difficult to refuse dollars now to preserve the future.
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Clemson Conqueror [12006]
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Re: I agree, I've been making that point many places. CFB is going the way of NASCAR
Jan 3, 2025, 1:00 PM
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I think my point is (or meant to be), it does not matter what any of us think about the transfer portal, NIL, pro or con ..... or anything else about college football. If it goes down the tubes, even to the point it sinks like NASCAR, there will be a lot of former or potential fans left out there to enjoy something else. I have plenty of hobbies to keep me busy on Saturday afternoons.
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Offensive Star [314]
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Hopefully the revenue sharing will put the major football schools back....
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Jan 3, 2025, 1:20 PM
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on or close to equal footing.... Or at least where no one has a a distinct advantage in the amount of total revenue that can be shared.... Then it will come down to tighter controls and stricter enforcement around NIL and the transfer portal.... At the same time I wouldn't be surprised if the IRS reclassifies sports "scholarships" as taxable.... Just like room, board, and non-scholarship expenses currently are.... Of course athletes will able to opt out and become part of any pending or future class action lawsuits in hopes of a bigger payday....
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