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Orange Blooded [2550]
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Has it occurred to some of you Dumpers . . .
Dec 13, 2010, 4:42 PM
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that you could take any one of your posts and place it on Gamecockcentral with a Gamecock handle and be applauded for it?
If it has, does this not bother you?
Seriously, there are about ten posters on here whose every post could be mistaken for something a Gamecock fan would say on their own board.
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110%er [5696]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Does it occur to you
Dec 13, 2010, 4:47 PM
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that if no one complains and money continues to roll in from the blindly loyal, the powers that be at Clemson will continue to act (or not act) as they have been doing?
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Yeah - point for you!***
Dec 13, 2010, 4:50 PM
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Starter [373]
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Re: Does it occur to you
Dec 13, 2010, 4:50 PM
[ in reply to Does it occur to you ] |
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that recruits read what you say?
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110%er [5696]
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Re: Does it occur to you
Dec 13, 2010, 4:53 PM
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that we could have 11 potential NFL draft pics playing on offense and still suck if the coaches can't figure out what they're doing?
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Athletic Dir [861]
TigerPulse: 94%
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We do?
Dec 13, 2010, 5:20 PM
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11 really. I think you overestimate our talent...
Two years ago, someone on here asked, "With all these top 20 recruiting classes when can we expect to win the ACC?" I replied that if your talent is ranked at 19 or 20, with average coaching that neither over-achieves or under-achieves, we could expect to finish the season ranked 19 or 20. This is not good enough to win an ACCC. I also made the statement that I felt Tommy Bowden was just such an average coach. Now I said this without actually studying the numbers. I wanted real data to back up my claim so I did a little research. This year I am continuing this analysis for our new coaching staff. While I would like to give Dabo the benefit of the doubt, because it is only his second year and he needs to recruit players for his system, this is still a good indicator of how well coaching staffs perform with the talent they have to work with.
First, I gathered recruiting class rankings for Clemson as far back as I could find (2002). I compiled this data and came up with an overall talent level for each season based on the prior 4 years recruiting rankings. At first I was going to do a straight average of the four years recruiting rankings in order to come up with a talent level for each season, but I realized that this would not give me the number I was really looking for. This is because seniors effect the overall talent of a team much more than true freshmen. So I decided to weight the average and derived my ranking 40% from seniors, 30% from juniors, 20% from sophomores, and 10% from freshmen. Of course, this does not take into account redshirts and early outs to the NFL but it is more accurate than a straight average. Then I compared this talent ranking for each season with our end of season rank. I was only able to go back to 2005 because, as I said before, I could only find our recruiting rankings for 2002 and beyond (if anyone can find these numbers please send them to me). Here are the numbers for 2002-2011.
season-------recruiting class rank------talent ranking----------season rank
’02-------------------22-------------------------?-------------------------57
’03-------------------31-------------------------?-------------------------25
’04-------------------40-------------------------?-------------------------42
'05--------------------22------------------------28.3----------------------24
'06--------------------15------------------------30.3----------------------33
'07--------------------16------------------------27.2----------------------21
'08--------------------12------------------------17.7----------------------49
’09--------------------37------------------------16.9----------------------24
’10--------------------19------------------------19.3-----------------------?
’11--------------------(7)-----------------------(20.4)----------------------?
---Numbers in () are projected.
As you can see from '05 to '07 Tommy Bowden produced rankings right at the level of his talent, only slightly over or under achieving. As we all know '08 is where it went south and it led to his firing. Judging from our level of talent in '08 we should have finished around #18.
Last year, strictly based on our level of talent, with average coaching we should have finished around #17. Dabo finished with a final ranking of #24… a 7 point underachiever. This wasn’t great but it was far better than Tommy Bowden’s 31 point underachieving effort in ’08.
Our talent level ranking for 2010 is 19.3. We are obviously on track to finish way below that mark. How badly must a coach underachieve before we should think about replacing him? I suppose that is up for debate. I feel that it was definitely time for Bowden after such a poor performance in ’08. When Bobby Bowden was forced out last year he had underachieved by 14 points. Of course, both Bowden’s had been on the job for quite a while and had ample opportunity to make the program their own. Dabo is only in his second year and I would like to give a coach four years before passing judgment. This allows for him to completely recruit for his system. Dabo’s first recruiting class in ‘09 was decimated by the controversy of the coaching change and 2010 was really his first real recruiting class (ranked #19). Next years class is currently ranked #7 but if Dabo were fired today I’m sure that would change. The “Dandy Dozen” (‘09’s terrible #37 ranked class) will hurt our talent ranking more over the next two years as they become upperclassmen, and we can ill afford another class like that. Next year we will only have 12 juniors, and in 2012 only twelve seniors. Even if we maintain a #7 ranking for our 2011 recruiting class, our talent ranking will actually drop next year to 20.4. With a repeat recruiting performance in 2012, which is not likely given the way this season is going, our talent ranking would drop to 22.6. If Dabo can salvage the season with at least a bowl appearance we should still field a decent class this year. If we fire him today we will most likely wind up with another class ranked 35 or worse, and have another four year cancer to deal with that only gets worse with time. Does this coaching staff need to improve their performance? Absolutely. Is it time to clean house? A rash decision like that may mean a much longer wait for top ten talent.
P.S At the end of the season I will compile and post the talent ranking for the top 25 and rate each coach’s performance.
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110%er [5696]
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You could have saved yourself a lot of typing if you had
Dec 13, 2010, 5:24 PM
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bothered to read my post correctly.
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Athletic Dir [861]
TigerPulse: 94%
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Gotcha..."could have"
Dec 13, 2010, 5:28 PM
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I actually just copy and pasted. I have been compiling this research for quite some time.
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Zealot [711]
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Thank you very much. I had no idea that
Dec 13, 2010, 5:54 PM
[ in reply to We do? ] |
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all I had to do was recruit.
Signed,
Jim Grobe
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Athletic Dir [861]
TigerPulse: 94%
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Good grief...
Dec 13, 2010, 7:51 PM
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I know we didn't have a good season but there is no need to abandon reason. Of course there is more to coaching than recruiting. That is the reason I wanted to get an accurate measure of our talent. When you can define the raw materials a coach has to work with you can measure his coaching performance compared to that baseline. I hear people all the time who say things like, "I can't believe that we are losing with all the talent we have." The problem is they have never bothered to look at that talent objectively. Of course there are coaches who overachieve with mediocre talent: Boise St., TCU, Utah, for example. These are great coaches and we know this because they get results with crap talent. There are also coaches who underachieve with great talent. Mark Richt and Urban Meyer for example. I'm sorry but I choose to reasonably analyze the data and wait for a coach to assemble a team of his own recruits before joining the crazed pumper or dumper mobs.
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Orange Blooded [3462]
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Re: We do?
Dec 13, 2010, 7:49 PM
[ in reply to We do? ] |
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in 2008 we had the #2 recruiting class according to ESPN
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Athletic Dir [861]
TigerPulse: 94%
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#12 according to rivals.***
Dec 13, 2010, 7:52 PM
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All-American [565]
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Good stuff!***
Dec 14, 2010, 9:45 AM
[ in reply to We do? ] |
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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that doesn't bother them, they are in denial, they think
Dec 13, 2010, 4:54 PM
[ in reply to Does it occur to you ] |
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everything is just peachy. Dabo is the messiah, Barker is making us an Ivy League school, academics come first dontcha know, besides we are a poor rural school in a poor southern state. who cares about olympic sports anyway. basketball is for tobacco road. all we care about is football and baseball. but it's cool our golf team is good too. in 5 years after Dabo gets his players and his system installed, and him and Napier grow into their jobs, we're going to win a national championship.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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LOL, "Dabo is the messiah"
Dec 13, 2010, 5:10 PM
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please show me one post where anybody has said anything close to that.
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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the love you folks have for a guy with his lack of exp and
Dec 13, 2010, 5:20 PM
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the extremes you go to defend his ability to make us a champion based on pure speculation, further eroded by the poor play of our upper class WRs, which were recruited by and coached by Dabo, can only come from deluded people fixated on some projected messiah complex.
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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You're nuts...
Dec 13, 2010, 5:33 PM
[ in reply to that doesn't bother them, they are in denial, they think ] |
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6-6 is NOT peachy. I have yet to see anyone say anything remotely like that. Nobody is in denial about anything, unless you consider the "dumpers'" idea that they're accomplishing something.
Nobody thinks Dabo is "the messiah". He has a lot to prove. But the truth of the matter is: NOTHING posted by you or any whiners like you will change anything. It only takes a thimble-full of common sense to see that. Nevermind the fact that complaining everyday of one's life about things you cannot change is WEAK. Guys like you are an embarrassment to Clemson men like me.
Dabo Swinney WILL be the head coach next year. If he doesn't win enough, then he will be fired. If he does win, which is just as likely or more likely than it was in 2009, then it will make guys like you look like idiots.. even more so than whining everyday of your life already does.
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110%er [5696]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Just curious. What makes you think it's just as likely that
Dec 13, 2010, 5:41 PM
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Dabo will win next year as it was in 2009? There are no seniors like Ford and Spiller to rely on, unlike 2009. Our strength this year - DL - will be depleted. Our All-American Safety will be gone, and we'll be breaking in a new QB.
We could very well turn it around next year, and I hope to God we do...but I don't see any reason to be optimistic about 2011.
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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Here are some reasons to believe, albeit some of it is
Dec 13, 2010, 5:51 PM
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more of a hope than a fact.
Just off the top of my head, reasons to think we can get back to 2009 form:
Andre Ellington
Harper
Deihl
Entire experienced, offensive line back, save one guy.
(Hopeful) Robbie Caldwell
(Hopeful) New offense
Brown
Hopkins
McNeal
Allen
Most of the 2-deep back on offense and defense.
Most of the defense back, albeit the loss of Bowers (not 100%) and McDaniel are hits.
(Hopeful) A returning staff to coach a seasoned, stout defense.
(Hopeful)
Bellamy
Peake
Watkins
Lane
Bryant
Etc.
(Hopeful) A QB who can buy time, see open receivers, and gain some yards on the ground when needed.
Just some initial ideas...
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Aficionado [191]
TigerPulse: 53%
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No disrespect but
Dec 13, 2010, 6:40 PM
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Jaron Brown and McNeal were the poster children of inconsistency.
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Orange Blooded [4757]
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Re: No disrespect but
Dec 14, 2010, 9:30 AM
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They were also FRESHMEN.
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Fan [91]
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Re: You're nuts...
Dec 13, 2010, 6:00 PM
[ in reply to You're nuts... ] |
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I agree with you all the way ...good post! That to which you were referring really did not make much sense, and it was, in itself, speculative. It did, however, have some good words in it. Does that count for something?
The key to the validity of your post is that time will tell...nothing complaining constantly can do for now. GO TIGERS!!
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Aficionado [191]
TigerPulse: 53%
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Dabo said it is not about W-Ls so, 6-6 is Peachy!***
Dec 13, 2010, 6:37 PM
[ in reply to You're nuts... ] |
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All-In [29036]
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Again, no he didn't.
Dec 13, 2010, 6:53 PM
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Please provide the quote you keep torturing.
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Does it occur to you...
Dec 13, 2010, 5:22 PM
[ in reply to Does it occur to you ] |
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... that NOTHING posted on Tigernet will change anything?
All it does is embarrass us.
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CU Guru [1243]
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Re: Does it occur to you...
Dec 13, 2010, 5:30 PM
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what is a message board for then? shouldn't it be about airing grievances, choosing sides, arguments, giving praise, conjectures, and rumors. How does it embarrass clemson? EVERY college team does it. This is a very passionate fan base that wants to win. Suck it up and enjoy the ride.
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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A message board is for people to DISCUSS anything
Dec 13, 2010, 5:40 PM
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they like related to whatever the board is about.
But there's a CLEAR difference between mature, constructive discussion and incessant, mindless whining.
Incessant, mindless whining is not constructive. And when the same lines of mindless whining are repeated over and over and over again, it's even less worthy of message board space.
Acting like whining babies accomplishes nothing except to make the "men" engaging in it look pathetic. Plus it's an EMBARRASSMENT to everything Clemson has ever stood for.
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Head Coach [762]
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this board is not a girevance board?
Dec 14, 2010, 7:39 AM
[ in reply to Re: Does it occur to you... ] |
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yes, the guys on here are passionate, but they seem to love wallering in their anger and whineness.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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yeah because whining on a message board has ever changed
Dec 13, 2010, 5:41 PM
[ in reply to Does it occur to you ] |
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anything
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Orange Blooded [2550]
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Re: Does it occur to you
Dec 13, 2010, 6:04 PM
[ in reply to Does it occur to you ] |
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If everyone stops giving as you recommend, how will we be able to afford a decent coach in the event that it becomes necessary to fire CDS after the 2011 season?
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All-Pro [682]
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Is your ego really big enough to believe that TNET posters
Dec 13, 2010, 6:57 PM
[ in reply to Does it occur to you ] |
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are going to change any of this?
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110%er [6937]
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Head Coach [762]
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they are supposed to do what they think is best.
Dec 14, 2010, 7:32 AM
[ in reply to Does it occur to you ] |
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you remove the trustees if they go against the majority. but they see the big picture, most people here see football and possibly a bit of another sport. the Trustees see the entire university.
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Head Coach [759]
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The same can be said for any pumper post.
Dec 13, 2010, 4:51 PM
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"Dabo is a great coach, give him 5 more years of losing to USC before we evaluate him and his staff."
"Brad Scott is a great coach!"
"I am really happy with Dabo and Clemson going 6-6 with a loss to USC this year. I want more of the same next year!"
Those happy with our current situation are more likely to be USC fans than those wanting improvement.
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All-American [565]
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I cannot deny that***
Dec 14, 2010, 9:41 AM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I am going to thumbs down every post using the words
Dec 13, 2010, 4:53 PM
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dumper or pumper from now on... starting after this one. 
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110%er [8009]
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Re: Has it occurred to some of you Dumpers . . .
Dec 13, 2010, 4:54 PM
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In my best macho, redneck voice...
I could care less what anybody thinks. It's my right to ##### and moan and sound like an ### in general. Ever heard of the 1st amendment? I'm a real fan. I want except mediocrity. Loosing is not an option. Fire Barker. Fire TDP, Fire Dabo. Clemson don't care about football. Boycott IPTAY. Who cares if we are having a good recruiting year. We have the bestest talent in the world already and look at what Dabo did with that. I wanted to hire Musgrave because he gets it. He's a high energy guy. He can recruit good. And he is and experienced head coach. And I'll tell you another thing. I aint givin' another dime to Barker until he cleans house.
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CU Medallion [50947]
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Re: Has it occurred to some of you Dumpers . . .
Dec 13, 2010, 5:24 PM
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Aside from using every cliche and classic Tnet spelling malfunction - Who is Musgrave? Or was that just an added mis-speak ?
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110%er [8009]
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Re: Intentional***
Dec 13, 2010, 7:17 PM
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110%er [6937]
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Orange Blooded [2145]
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Head Coach [762]
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110%er [8009]
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Re: I'm neither mad, nor angry. Read it again. I was poking
Dec 14, 2010, 10:10 AM
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fun at those who are angry and mad.
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Orange Blooded [2073]
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Rock Defender [54]
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do you mean that CU is down and AD and above are doing
Dec 13, 2010, 5:27 PM
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nothing about it....salt in the wounds is getting beaten down in all three major sports.
I will say blaming baseball would be unfair....you lost to the National Champs....
Still, I think it most of it is base on how funny it is that CU thinks of themselves as a football power and they hired an unproved WR coach.
The real blame is firing TB during the season. Letting Dabo rally the team and beat USC made the cheap hire a much easier sell to the fanbaae; even though TB always finished strong at the end of the year.
If Cu wanted TB gone, should have fired him at the end of the year and then done a truly national search. Spend some money and get a coach that brings national attention to CU instead of getting what you got.
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Commissioner [905]
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The Coots have been Praising Dabo and Co
Dec 13, 2010, 6:41 PM
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They don't want us to change. They want us to keep our losing ways
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Head Coach [762]
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same comments people here have had about Spurrier
Dec 14, 2010, 7:36 AM
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so what
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Truth hurts, doesn't it!***
Dec 13, 2010, 6:53 PM
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Standout [311]
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Re: Has it occurred to some of you Dumpers . . .
Dec 14, 2010, 6:35 AM
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Surf Cat,has it occurred to you that after a 6-6 season that was anticipated to be much better, there would be opinions that differ from yours? That's why everyone doesn't vote Republican or wear blue oxford cloth shirts!Let the opinions occur. They add spice to our life and keep these boards clicking.
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All-American [565]
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It is even depressing to me to read this negative stuff...
Dec 14, 2010, 9:35 AM
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Let's post positive stuff about our teams and the future or keep it to yourself....please! It does not help recruiting or the mind set of the players or coaches. I haven't made up my mind about TDP or the Prez yet either....I personally think we should set higher goals than just to be a top 25... at anything. That may be their capability level, but not Clemson's.
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All-In [36410]
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Dumpers Enjoy ESPN Skatting Explosive Diherria (sp) in their
Dec 14, 2010, 10:03 AM
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mouths to regurgitate on here later.
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Replies: 50
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50
