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Orange Blooded [2550]
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PTI from a former Assistant Solicitor . . .
Aug 13, 2008, 11:32 AM
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I am a former Assistant Solicitor in the 14th Judicial Circuit, I'm fed up with the ignorance of some posters both here and on other boards with regard to PTI.
It would be one thing if people posted their understandings, but they post erroneous information as fact and it is driving me nuts.
First, PTI IS NOT AN ADMISSION OF GUILT. One of the conditions of PTI is usually that the Defendant pay restitution to the alleged victim, therefore, it may give that inference. However, as some knowledgeable posters have pointed out, it is sometimes better to suck it up and make some concessions rather than placing your fate in the hands of twelve of your so called peers.
All you would need is one of the idiots that I've seen post on the subject from FGF on your jury, and the best you could hope for is a hung jury. If you got a few of them who somehow have some skill at persuasion, you go to prison. The maximum penalty for ABHAN is 10 years in prison.
Further, a case that could be plead prior to trial for probation, generally turns into jail time if you go to trial and are found guilty.
I don't know what happened with DMc, but from the statements that I have read, I would recommend PTI for Deandre if he were my client; REGARDLESS OF GUILT!
The bottom line is that some of you need to refrain from posting without knowing what you're talking about.
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Junkie [538]
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You would enter a innocent client with witnesses into PTI?
Aug 13, 2008, 11:47 AM
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Most attorneys would disagree with this tactic
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110%er [5791]
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OJ was "innocent" too right? Juries are unpredictable,
Aug 13, 2008, 11:49 AM
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why take a chance?
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Orange Blooded [4640]
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Depends on how much money he has for a lawyer. The
Aug 13, 2008, 11:50 AM
[ in reply to You would enter a innocent client with witnesses into PTI? ] |
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accuser has one that is not cheap. I know him. PTI may be the best and most timely way to get on with his life without costing him an arm and a leg, regardless of the truth.
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Orange Blooded [2550]
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Re: You would enter a innocent client with witnesses into PTI?
Aug 13, 2008, 11:53 AM
[ in reply to You would enter a innocent client with witnesses into PTI? ] |
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You are obviously not an attorney, so what is your basis for that statement?
Given that noone was in the room with DMc and the alleged victim, there are portions of time where there were no witnesses. Therefore, there will be period where its his word against hers. Given what's at stake, I'd take the sure thing. The only drawbacks are unimformed public opinion and having to pay restitution.
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Orange Blooded [2550]
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Well, I'm waiting . . .
Aug 13, 2008, 12:27 PM
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Who is this group of "[m]ost attorneys" with whom you've apparently spoken?
Or have you heeded my advice given in the last sentence of my initial post? That would probably be the prudent "tactic" for you.
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Rock Defender [54]
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"Cat" got his tongue?***
Aug 13, 2008, 12:58 PM
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null [1758]
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Orange Blooded [3599]
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You'd be crazy not to do PTI in this case.
Aug 13, 2008, 11:55 AM
[ in reply to You would enter a innocent client with witnesses into PTI? ] |
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You completely control your own destiny. You pay the money, do the things on the list, and NO RECORD. You can even legally say you were never arrested, if memory serves.
The money and the tasks are a small price to pay for that certainty.
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CU Guru [1654]
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You are correct . ITnever happened if PTI happens***
Aug 13, 2008, 12:02 PM
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Team Captain [462]
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link???
Aug 13, 2008, 11:59 AM
[ in reply to You would enter a innocent client with witnesses into PTI? ] |
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I would counsel my client to do what he feels is right. If he wants the PTI, I tell him the pros and cons, and let him make the choice. If he wants to roll the dice with a jury, I roll up my sleves and get to work.
It's ALWAYS the client's choice. Never does the attorney make this decision for a client.
And every client I've ever had has always been innocent - even when the evidence pointed to guilty as sin.
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Enthusiast [114]
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I disagree that "most attorneys" would discourage PTI
Aug 13, 2008, 12:00 PM
[ in reply to You would enter a innocent client with witnesses into PTI? ] |
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As an attorney I would suggest a client who believes he is innocent to seriously consider PTI in this situation. The attorney's role in this situation is to present all the options to the client and allow him to make a well-reasoned decision based on his options.
There are a lot of factors to consider under the "facts" as we know them regardless of the truth of these "facts". PTI allows DMc to put this incident behind him at minimum cost and minimum risk no matter his guilt or innocence.
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Team Captain [462]
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^^^Bingo^^^***
Aug 13, 2008, 12:02 PM
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Orange Blooded [3017]
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This aint like watching "A Few Good Men" and your client
Aug 13, 2008, 12:12 PM
[ in reply to You would enter a innocent client with witnesses into PTI? ] |
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wants to plead not-guilty because of honor. You ALWAYS make concessions to avoid any chances of jail time or harsher penalty later - regardless.
As he stated, you NEVER know what 12 people you have never met will decide. Then you could have an innocent client that is behind bars for 10 yrs.
Even in the movie, Tom Cruise's character pleads his clients down to 2 yrs ('you'll be home in 6 months...its a hockey season'). Of course they didnt take the deal and thus the movie continues, but you get a picture of how hard it is to go through a trial.
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CU Medallion [64593]
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Orange Blooded [3178]
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Orange Blooded [3456]
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Orange Blooded [4741]
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Actually, you're wrong.
Aug 13, 2008, 2:29 PM
[ in reply to You would enter a innocent client with witnesses into PTI? ] |
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Several attorneys have posted that is EXACTLY what they would do. My fiancee, who is an attorney, confers.
Domestic violence cases come down to "he said/she said." Even if you are innocent, you may be better off to accept PTI rather than put your fate in the hands of a jury.
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Legend [15863]
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Wow - you are wrong
Aug 13, 2008, 12:06 PM
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about only writing your last sentance only once
You should have written it SEVERAL TIMES in BOLD !!!!!!!
The bottom line is that some of you need to refrain from posting without knowing what you're talking about.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Thanks, my brother. As a former assistant solicitor myself,
Aug 13, 2008, 12:07 PM
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and a lawyer with 34 years of experience, I find it amusing that these folks keep talking about "innocence," when you know that "innocence" is not an absolute concept. And now with jurors being drawn from i.d. lists - as opposed to voter registration lists - I have seen ignorance and prejudice compel some unbelievably egregious jury verdicts. If this young woman has ANY injuries documented by the police or emergency room staff, it would be imprudent, at least, to risk a jury trial.
Thanks for offering a breath of fresh air. This Board was fast on its way to Oprahland.
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CU Guru [1132]
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if "knowing what you are talking about" was a requisite
Aug 13, 2008, 12:17 PM
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for posting on this board, there would be very few posts on the board
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110%er [6492]
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Wait. Assistant Solicitor, or assistant TO the Solicitor?***
Aug 13, 2008, 12:24 PM
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All-TigerNet [12092]
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Re: Wait. Assistant Solicitor, or assitant TO the Solicitor?***
Aug 13, 2008, 12:25 PM
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null [304]
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I have awarded a Schrute-Point to each of you***
Aug 13, 2008, 12:28 PM
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Orange Blooded [2970]
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MBRO gets an extra 14 minutes for lunch...
Aug 13, 2008, 9:02 PM
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with his Schute bucks (points)
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Zealot [749]
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Orange Blooded [2550]
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Re: Wait. Assistant Solicitor, or assitant TO the Solicitor?***
Aug 13, 2008, 12:32 PM
[ in reply to Wait. Assistant Solicitor, or assistant TO the Solicitor?*** ] |
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Assistant Solicitor. However, I would opine that even the most incabpable of assistants TO the Solicitor would know more than a some of the posters on here who do not hesitate to spread their wealth of knowledge.
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110%er [5791]
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Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa....whoa
Aug 13, 2008, 12:40 PM
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Lois, this is not my Batman glass.
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110%er [9771]
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^^^^^As someone who has gone through PTI, I agree w/this guy
Aug 13, 2008, 12:29 PM
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Sometimes, it's just better to swallow your pride and take the deal, even if you are innocent........................which I was.........................I swear on Danny I was.
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Team Captain [488]
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if you got everyone to refrain from posting unless they knew
Aug 13, 2008, 12:32 PM
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what they were talking about, this site would average one post a day
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Fan [59]
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Dumping ground ???
Aug 13, 2008, 12:50 PM
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So that's how PTI works! DA knows the person is innocent
and the case is weak so he dumps it into PTI.
Defense counsel is so scared of a jury they innocent
people there.
Glad to hear that's how it works in the 14th circuit.
All this time I thought this program was to give a break to first time offenders.
I guess since they are innocent no need for counseling
or anything like that.
Just let an alleged victim extort money and give the state
some coins.
I respectfully disagree with the ethics exspoused in your
post.
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CU Guru [1279]
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OK here you go
Aug 13, 2008, 12:55 PM
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He will have to go to anger management classes for about 26 weeks according to the PTI friend I have in Pickens and he will have to do probally 120 hours of community service.
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Fan [59]
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wow...all because he's innocent
Aug 13, 2008, 1:01 PM
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What a shame the defense won't try it.
What a travesty! The DA knowing he's doing that to a innocent man.
Set him free...don't railroad the poor guy.
Think of all the lies he'll be asked to tell in
counseling. If he doesn't they will accuse him of being
in denial and could even flunk him out of PTI.
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Orange Blooded [2550]
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Re: Dumping ground ???
Aug 13, 2008, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to Dumping ground ??? ] |
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You inferred an aweful lot from my post that was not intended nor espoused.
First, prosecutors are quasi judicial in nature. Given that, my opinion is that a prosecutor has a duty to get rid of a charge when the defendant is clearly not guilty of a charge.
When I was a prosecutor, we had a lot more leeway in that regard. However, with the advent of the Victim's Bill of Rights, many Solicitor's office let the tail wag the dog by letting victims control their cases. Although victims deserve to be treatd with common decency, I've never been a big fan of the result of that bill.
Further, it is unfortunate, but an attorney that is not afraid of the consequences of going before a jury is not providing adequate counsel to his client. If you have an attorney that has never lost a case, than you have an attorney that doesn't go before a jury often. This isn't Matlock.
I am unaware of the specific legislative intent of PTI, but it has resulted in an alternative for someone who does not want to let a group of people who's collective IQ may be less than his age determine his fate. This, in my opinion, is a good thing.
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Fan [59]
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fear of trial
Aug 13, 2008, 1:25 PM
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Look I've tried quite a few cases in my day.
If, as a lawyer, your fear of what a jury will do
causes you to advise a defendant who you believe
is innocent to go to PTI.....maybe you are in the
wrong line of work.
My clients recently refused an offer of PTI while
facing 30 years.They were innocent. Atty General
carefully reviewed his case ,I guess, because 2
years later the charges were dismissed.
Guess he was afraid of trial.
Backbone is needed when representing innocent people.
I can reasonable assure you PTI was NOT designed for
innocent people to avoid court.
It is NOT intended to be a dumping ground for weak
knee DAs or Defense attorneys.
I just today sent a client to PTI. They were guilty
but deserve a break and have no prior record.
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Starter [360]
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i am no atty and have no judicial experience,
Aug 13, 2008, 1:54 PM
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but it seems that you may be comparing apples to oranges. every case is different. i doubt your clients were high profile, public persons with an extreme need to clear this matter sooner than later.
maybe they were, but lets try not to group every legal case into one huge pile.
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Fan [59]
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not guilty vs guilty
Aug 13, 2008, 2:14 PM
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doesn't depend on social status.
I entered this fray because I find
it offensive to suggest PTI is for
not guilty people to avoid trial.
My clients were not football players
but believe me facing 30 years is
not an issue to be taking lightly.
Rich or poor.Famous or not.
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Orange Blooded [3974]
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You are making too many generalizations about a complex
Aug 13, 2008, 2:13 PM
[ in reply to fear of trial ] |
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issue. I'm an attorney also, and your black-and-white approach strikes me as too naive and/or idealistic to be held by experienced counsel.
It's all about calculated risk, and there is very little risk in PTI other than public ignorance and a little money lost. Unless, of course, one assumes (as you do) that the client will subsequently offend, and thus need the get out of jail free card for another day. How can you give that risk more weight than the possibility a dumb@$$ jury will find your client guilty at trial?
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Orange Blooded [3974]
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Okay, I'll answer for you then. Cause you're a coot with
Aug 13, 2008, 2:57 PM
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ulterior motives.
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Fan [59]
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Sorry for delayed response
Aug 13, 2008, 3:47 PM
[ in reply to You are making too many generalizations about a complex ] |
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Since you referenced something I didn't say I assumed
you meant your remarks for another. I never mentioned
assuming a client would repaet offend and need a "get outta jail free " card or imply any such thing. That was not me.
Sure every case is different but the discussion was a general one about principles of not guilty people using PTI
rather than trial. I stand by my principle that to send a
NOT guilty person to PTI and advise them it preserves
their innocence is wrong and unethical. Ask PTI if they think it's for not guilty people.Bet you will not like the answer.
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Orange Blooded [2550]
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Re: Sorry for delayed response
Aug 13, 2008, 4:06 PM
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> Since you referenced something I didn't say I
> assumed
> you meant your remarks for another. I never mentioned
>
> assuming a client would repaet offend and need a "get
> outta jail free " card or imply any such thing. That
> was not me.
> Sure every case is different but the discussion was a
> general one about principles of not guilty people
> using PTI
> rather than trial. I stand by my principle that to
> send a
> NOT guilty person to PTI and advise them it
> preserves
> their innocence is wrong and unethical. Ask PTI if
> they think it's for not guilty people.Bet you will
> not like the answer.
Where do I find this PTI to ask "if they think it's for not guilty people"?
In the counties that I have dealt with, the PTI personel are generally high school grads, if that, and have no idea what the legislative intent behing PTI is. They are merely clerks who assist the defendants in filling the forms out properly and letting them know what's expected of them.
Based on the comments that you've made in this discussion, I find it incredibly hard to beleive that you are an attorney. Unless you're a tax lawyer or something.
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Orange Blooded [2550]
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Re: fear of trial
Aug 13, 2008, 3:34 PM
[ in reply to fear of trial ] |
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> If, as a lawyer, your fear of what a jury will do
> causes you to advise a defendant who you believe
> is innocent to go to PTI.....maybe you are in the
> wrong line of work.
That is one of the most absurd statements I've ever read. There is no way you are a lawyer.
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Orange Blooded [4741]
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Yup. I said the same thing but somehow I got deleted.***
Aug 13, 2008, 4:34 PM
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CU Guru [1367]
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Without idiots there would be no FGF.***
Aug 13, 2008, 12:53 PM
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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The only GOOD trial is one that NEVER happens
Aug 13, 2008, 12:56 PM
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I could not agree more that DMc made the best choice.
he knows his fate going in. Never put your life in the hands of 12 strangers.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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WOW! Lawyers disagreeing and arguing with each other. Who
Aug 13, 2008, 1:06 PM
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would have seen THAT coming??? 
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Junkie [538]
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Surf, I did not mean anything against you. I just think the
Aug 13, 2008, 1:15 PM
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amount of work a atty spends on trials leads them to want a plea. Maybe allowing contingency fees in criminal cases is the answer. Problem is that may push us to want trials that are not in the best interest of the client to get the "home run" fee.
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Rock Defender [54]
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Is THIS him??
Aug 13, 2008, 1:28 PM
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All-TigerNet [11894]
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Could be...after all, this incident involves two "youts"...
Aug 13, 2008, 1:36 PM
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Re: Could be...after all, this incident involves two "youts"...
Aug 13, 2008, 1:37 PM
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Mistah Gambini ... Did you say ... youts??
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Enthusiast [138]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Vinnie,my man! Funny, that movie is adored by all lawyers.
Aug 13, 2008, 1:45 PM
[ in reply to Is THIS him?? ] |
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It reminds some of us old hands of our younger days. I was actually in a magistrate's court one time where the court was in a cow pasture. I had to drive my brand new BMW circuitously through a maze of cow patties. When I got inside with my crackhead client and his father, I was greeted by the magistrate - a Frank Howard lookalike - and two rotund deputies - all chewing tobacco and spitting into dixie cups. When I told the illustrious magistrate that my boy wanted a jury trial, he proclaimed, "Well by God we'll shore give'em one. We don't wanna deprive nobody of their rights, do we boys?" True story.
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