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The Truth.................
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Enthusiast [130]
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The Truth.................
Dec 11, 2010, 6:48 PM
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and some of my opinion.
I typically do not do long posts, but as an Alumni and life long fan of Clemson, I felt obligated to do some research. Much of it I got from this board. We deserve better as Clemson fans. So I'm going to go all Kenny Powers and hit y'all up with some truth:
TRUTH 1:
The following are the only BCS schools to not have accomplished at least one of the following since 1992.
1) 10 win season
2) Win a Conference Championship
3) Play in a BCS Bowl Game
Baylor
Clemson
Duke
Kentucky
Indiana
Iowa State
South Carolina
USF*
Vanderbilt
* Joined Division I since 1992
-SECOND TRUTH from http://mddailyrecord.com/2010/11/03/in-acc-football-spending-equals-victories/:
Clemson reported $35.2 million in football revenue in 2008-09, followed by Virginia Tech ($27.7 million), Miami ($27.2 million) and Florida State ($24.9 million). The Hokies’ revenue also increased 12 percent to $31.1 million in 2009-10.
During the 2008-09 academic year, the most recent year with data available for all the schools, the programs that spent the most on football were Miami ($20.9 million), Boston College ($19.4 million), Clemson ($18.8 million) and Virginia Tech ($18.2 million).
From this article, Clemson gets a butt load more revenue than all of the ACC, but where did that 17 million go? It did not go back to the program. Did it go into the arbitrary initiative called top 20? I need some more research on this. I personally donate to the Civil Engineering dept. and IPTAY. Do all my IPTAY donations go to the athletic program?
-THIRD TRUTH from http://www.thesmartjournal.com/admissions.pdf
Better football programs = more applicants = more selective admissions = better academic rankings
-FOURTH TRUTH from a Tigerillustrated poster (Dubose) about Barker and the Top 20 agenda (shortened)
*Barker talks about improving the school, but uses artificial metrics.
*We should remember the New York Times article that recalled:
"Clemson officials, in filling out the reputational survey form for presidents, rate ‘all programs other than Clemson below average,’ to make the university look better." (NY Times, 2009).
And then Barker's response:
"The accusation that Clemson, its staff and administrators have engaged in unethical conduct to achieve a higher ranking is untrue and unfairly disparages the sincere, unwavering and effective efforts of faculty and staff to improve academic quality over the past 10 years."
He also said:
"While we have publicly stated our goal of a Top 20 ranking, we have repeatedly stressed that we use the criteria as indicators of quality improvement and view a ranking as the byproduct, not the objective."
Some would argue that these are outright lies.
*Clemson also actively manipulates class sizes in a way that have a negligible effect on quality of instruction but benefit the school in rankings.
*The US News and World Report recently changed the way it constructed its rankings in response to criticism. Clemson University, a school that has been around for more than a century, is basing its university vision around a magazine metric that is subject to change at any time. Let that sink in for a while.
* USNWR can be artificially manipulated. A Vault.com article suggests other things, as well. The article cited Clemson University as a primary rankings manipulator.
That article said:
"I also think that, while yield rate and graduation are positive steps, these changes do not make up for the fact that, in the end, the U.S. News rankings focus too much on prestige and standardized testing, and too little on what the school has to offer to its students."
http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/blogs/entry-detail/index?blog_id=1461&entry_id=11524
*Vault's rankings has Clemson tumbling.
*What happens when USNWR goes under for whatever reason? What happens if Vault suddenly becomes the leading magazine ranking system? What if students pay attention to other ranking systems? What will Clemson be left with then?
*USNWR is not published anymore, it is only an online rankings entity. Let that sink in for a moment. **My note, USNWR does publish their College ranking issue.
* 5% of the USNWR rankings are determined by the percentage of alums who are giving back to the university. This is metric that's designed to see what kind of connection the U has with its graduates.
At graduation, Clemson handed out an envelope with two dollars and a place on the back for students to sign their names and addresses. The people giving the money to each student asked us to then "put it back in the bucket as a way of making our first donation to Clemson's alumni fund".
Clemson just sunk to giving money to people to donate in order to satisfy this portion of the rankings. It racked up 100% of those graduates for the sake of the survey, while actually creating NO new wealth for the university.
-FIFTH Truth from http://clemsontigers.cstv.com/school-bio/facilities-football.html
Clemson has ranked in the top 20 in the nation in average attendance 22 consecutive seasons..
How many other CFB teams any where near this fan support have such a bad 20 years? None.
SIXTH TRUTH:
Our admission process for athletes is more difficult than most ACC schools. There are many example, but the best example is Dwight Jones (5 star WR) was denied at Clemson, but UNC (a better academic school) could accept him. A quick source I found: http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/10/09/729735/clemson-at-unc.html#ixzz17g8aA8Sb
Conclusion
We have hampered our athletic dept. by making it harder for athletes to be admitted and by taken out the most money from the program than any other ACC school. For what? An arbitrary magazine metric that can easily be debated and manipulated. I think this will hurt Clemson athletics and academics in the future.
BTL
-Clemson receives more football revenue than any ACC school. How many ACC Championships do we have? 0
-Clemson has the best attendance and fan base in the ACC.
-Clemson tuition has increased tremendously since I was there.
-Pretty much all of Barker's goals (Top 20, Nat'l Champ, 2 Final Fours) have been a huge failure. A freaking joke. He is awesome at demagoguery. IMO, a lot of our increased rankings in the USNWR is due to the SC Lottery. Smarter students are staying instate. This happened to UGA after their lottery was implemented.
-It is harder for an athlete to be admitted.
-Better football programs get more applicants = better education ranking
We deserve better. I want a better Clemson in both athletics and academics. I want a pragmatic Clemson president. I do not want an ideologue focused on magazine..ummmm I mean online rankings. Barker has had 10 freaking years. How much longer does he need to be there before we become USuC's perennial beotch? It is time for a change and hopefully we can come up with term limits.
My academic goals for Clemson would be to help the state of SC, the USA, and the world with innovation in agriculture, engineering, medicine and sustainable energy, etc, etc. Not by improving our magazine ranking. We need some real tangible goals. However, I will give Barker credit for increased research funding and some other academic improvements.
I just hope TDP is not being used as a Machiavellian scape goat right now (read The Prince). I do not think he is the real problem. It starts at the top, we need to get to the bottom of how the money is spent and be proactive about it being spent on the right and fair things. The football program needs an adequate indoor practice facility, a training table, among many others. Hopefully if we (the alumns and fans) are mad enough the people at the top will start listening.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Lord Acton
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: The Truth.................Great read.Finally some real
Dec 11, 2010, 6:57 PM
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logic to why we suck out loud.
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Savant [457]
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This post should have had a disclaimer...
Dec 11, 2010, 7:07 PM
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You stated that it was your opinion. I am not so sure that this is true. Unless you are one of the writes for "ShakinTheSouthland" that was an absolutely plagiarized post and should have been stated as such, not as your opinion.
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110%er [8118]
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Re: This post should have had a disclaimer...
Dec 11, 2010, 7:16 PM
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This guy is a cheeter by claiming credit for someone else's work. BTW, STS blog must steal most of their material from FGF as they seem to hate everything Clemson.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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dude you have nothing to refute those facts, so it ain't...
Dec 12, 2010, 2:30 AM
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hating it is the cold hard facts.
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110%er [6851]
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Did you think we didn't see this last 6 times it was posted?
Dec 11, 2010, 7:16 PM
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Get some new material.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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it is the truth deal with it or just don't respond***
Dec 12, 2010, 2:31 AM
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110%er [6577]
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you didn't write this...***
Dec 11, 2010, 8:29 PM
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Fan [68]
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Re: The Truth.................
Dec 11, 2010, 8:30 PM
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What a crok
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Rock Defender [54]
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Germans***
Dec 11, 2010, 8:31 PM
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Mascot [18]
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Re: The Truth.................
Dec 11, 2010, 8:41 PM
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Aside from your pointless, self-defeating, and juvenile utilization of the moniker "USuC" in reference to the flagship university of the state, that is easily the best Clemson-oriented message board post I have ever read. Excellent work. You have a realistic perspective on where your football program and university actually stand.
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Varsity [234]
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Re: The Truth.................
Dec 11, 2010, 9:09 PM
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the flagship university of the state...you're kidding right? Just because you include "South Carolina" in your name does not help the fact that your university is in a gang ridden dump of city located in the arm-pit of the state of South Carolina. The standards at Clemson are much higher than those at USC. I'm sure all the engineers and scientists Clemson is pumping out would have preferred to be in the USC engineering program...Just because you happened to win two years in a row does not all of a sudden make you the flagship university.
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Mascot [18]
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Re: The Truth.................
Dec 12, 2010, 2:08 AM
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Your post is littered with positively asinine assertions. You should venture outside of Pickens County occasionally.
Yes, Carolina is the flagship university of the state. Everyone other than myopic Clemson supporters recognize this as a rather incontrovertible reality. Even without regard to recent evidence of institutional corruption, your precious magazine rankings are irrelevant. When cited as a basis for any sort of comparison, such measures are lampooned by anyone who amounts to anything. Let me know the next time you meet a doctor, lawyer, or top corporate officer who earned a terminal academic credential at Clemson.
Carolina is located in the state's capital and largest city. All cities of moderate or greater size (especially capitals) have areas that have gone to seed. Fortunately, most of Columbia is very nice. Ample dining, nightlife, arts, and entertainment opportunities are available in a number of targeted commercial districts. On the contrary, Clemson is located (quite literally) in the middle of nowhere. One can hardly obtain a decent meal in Clemson without driving 45 minutes to Greenville or cooking it oneself. Such rustic, provincial environs aren't for everybody.
Carolina is one of 62 public and 32 private research institutions *and the only university in South Carolina* classified a research institution of "very high research activity" by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching. USC was awarded $218.8 million in research funding in the 2010 fiscal year, a record amount for the school and an increase of 4% over the year prior. Your claim about superior scientific and engineering activity at Clemson is specious at best.
Carolina and Clemson have totally different institutional missions and admissions priorities, and those are reflected in the statistics. Of particular note are Clemson's alarmingly high ratio of out-of-state students and Carolina's excellent student body diversity. I think I'll let you read between the lines. Again, what some knucklehead who works for a magazine thinks of your school isn't worth a hill of beans.
The bottom line -- a motivated kid can get a quality education and have a quality experience at either school, but Carolina and Clemson stand in stark contrast to one another in a number of key areas. As Carolina is much older, much larger, much more diverse, carries the nominative of its state, and is situated in the centrally-located state capital, it is entirely reasonable and appropriate to apply to it the "flagship" label.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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I have lived around Columbia my whole life and the.....
Dec 12, 2010, 3:00 AM
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restaurants there are terrible beyond belief. Every time I hear of place that is supposed to have good food, I go there and after eating I wished I would have just stayed home and cooked my own dinner, because I could have down a whole lot better than the garbage they serve at most restaurants in columbia.
And Columbia's nightlife is out right boring, the clubs and bars are lifeless filled with people who act like complete a**holes when they get drunk. And arts what freaking arts, the Koger center is some wanna be artsy BS that attracts nothing of value. And the only "entertainment opportunities" are strip clubs, unless you considering listening to lame bands that haven't been able to make it out of Columbia even after 10 years of playing the local scene and releasing multiple albums that don't sell jack squat.
Also Columbia has never been able to attract major music acts, because when a major music act does come through nobody shows up for their concert. Clemson's littlejohn gets more major music acts than the colonial dead life arena does.
And those targeted commercial districts like columbia centre and richland fashion center have a bunch of empty stores. The mall that is most successful while technically located in columbia by a crooked land grab by bob coble is located 10 miles from columbia right by the town of Irmo.
Columbia is one of the ugliest cities in the south with little to do. I live in Irmo and haven't even been to Columbia in about two years, because there is nothing to do there. If I want to do something exciting or something worth spending money on I go to Charleston, Charlotte, or Atlanta.
Now most of what you say about SCU is true, it is a great school but it is not the flagship university. Your statement about Clemson not being superior to SCU in science and engineering is beyond Ridiculous. SCU doesn't even try to emphasize these areas. SCU just sticks to the medical field, law, and international business are their specialities. Clemson helps the US military develop new technologies, that sure as he** is not going on at SCU. And if somebody wants to be an engineer in south carolina, the instate school they go to is Clemson, because they get hooked up with jobs immediately while being at Clemson through summer internship programs and after they graduate.
Clemson maybe small but it is much better place to be at than Columbia, it is scenic and is close to greenville, which gets tons more entertainment events than the colonial dead life arena, and anderson. In Columbia, if you walk the streets you have to deal with all the homeless people and asking you for money non stop no matter what part of the city you are in. Even after you give them money they still keep on asking for more. Columbia has done nothing for over 20 years to address their homeless problem, which gets worse and worse all the time.
Another thing you have to deal with is all the meth heads around Columbia. It's absolutely pathetic that a city as small as Columbia has that many zombie meth heads all over the place.
Plain and simple, Columbia is the armpit of the South, and this is coming from some one who has lived near Columbia my whole life.
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110%er [6851]
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Please send this COOT^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this
Dec 11, 2010, 9:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Truth................. ] |
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is USUCK football! He needs to read it again. This year does not eliminate 100 years of sports futility.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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with out a doubt the best post ever on tigernet and i'm....
Dec 12, 2010, 2:28 AM
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talking the whole history of tigernet. This guy used facts to blow away any excuse or defense the sunshine pumpers have. These facts are irrefutable and point to how bad of a situation Clemson is in academically and athletically. If Barker is not removed soon, Clemson University will suffer tremendously and will take along time to overcome the failure's of the Barker administration.
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Rooter [212]
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I agree, very informative and persuasive...
Dec 12, 2010, 2:14 PM
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anybody on the fence about whether or not Barker is a serious problem should now be convinced he needs to go.
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All-TigerNet [10961]
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It'll be hard to sunshine pump your way out of this one
Dec 12, 2010, 3:46 PM
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but I'm sure Barker/TDP/etc will try.
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110%er [7148]
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God, what a great post...
Dec 12, 2010, 4:27 PM
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well done...
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Walk-On [126]
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Re: The Problem with these "truths" is...
Dec 12, 2010, 4:43 PM
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they are only relative to the last 2 years. I think to properly analyze an athletic department is to look at a period of time of at least 5 years. I don't know all the numbers but if you look at the West End Zone project alone, I think CU would probably be at the top in spending for all these ACC programs. Just sayin'.
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CU Guru [1581]
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Your statement about attendance and revenue...
Dec 12, 2010, 6:56 PM
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needs supporting docs as there is no way we compete with UNC and Duke in BB attendance and revenue.
Also, had the money (assuming it has been diverted away from athletics) been spent on the facilities you say we need, would it have made any difference in wins/losses? Since recruits seem to want to come to Clemson, what would be the benefit? Throwing money at the problem will not solve it.
I agree that we should have at least won 2 ACC Champs in that time in FB but we are still struggling from the mess that was made in the late nineties. TB did little to get us out of the funk despite trying due to his faulty view of the way a program should be run (too much FSU). We were very close to winning it last year and I thought we represented ourselves well in FB. This year had lots of dissapointments and let downs but those will likely be corrected next year. I expect us to be in the ACCCG next year.
I'll make a deal with you. If we don't make a bowl game next year, I will politely stand with you asking for a FB coaching change. But, I am guessing even if we win the ACC many of you will still complain that we haven't won a
NC. Frankly, I don't know why I waste my time with some of you.
As with anything political, and the rankings are political, you always look at the things that will boost your ranking and improve them. If there is a rediculuos metric such as percent of alumni giving back, you respond with an equally drediculuos method of increasing that metric. I blame the ranking publication for looking at things like that.
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