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All-American [566]
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In answer to Toogie below
Jun 23, 2005, 9:36 AM
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Toog stated:"..why do you (and I mean Clemson fans) continue to praise and honor a man (Tillman) whose lasting legacy was pure unadulterated racism."
In USuCk's beloved horsehoe, the area of campus that they highly tout and brag about, they have a building named after Henry William Desaussure. Here is a little tidbit about one of their "Heros":
Calling captive Africans "dark and savage barbarians," South Carolina Judge Henry William Desaussure wrote in 1822, "Are the slaves, it is again asked, possessed of the qualities necessary to convert them with safety at once into freemen, with all political privileges? ... The answer must be in the negative. The body of them would either be the blind and violent instruments of some of their own cunning and base leaders ... or they would be a dead, inert mass, mere hewers of wood and drawers of water."
Now, tell me agian, which school praises and honors a man with racist views?
It is rediculous that USuCk fans continue to claim Clemson is a racist school based on Tillman's views. Racism was predominant in SC in the 1800s. However, some gamecock fans have refused to move into the 21st century as I still see racist comments on all the gamecock boards.
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Scholar [4739]
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Know-it-all [2253]
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GCN is the worst***
Jun 23, 2005, 9:39 AM
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Scholar [4739]
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Tell me, does that fact makes Tillman less racist.......
Jun 23, 2005, 9:41 AM
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how does the fact that we have a building named after an avowed racist make it better that you do as well...
As you statrt to say, this is SC, for both schools raism is one big glass house, meaning both of us should avoid throwing stones...
I doubt there is any institution in the state as old as USC or Clemson that does not have a racist in it's background some where
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Scholar [4739]
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Let me go on to say, as if you care, that I don't......
Jun 23, 2005, 9:45 AM
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think of Clemson as a rcist institution on any way, nor do I think of USC as racist... I do think we both have fans, alumni, students and other associated with our schools tht hold those attitudes. I don't like it, I don't condone it, but I don't call Clemson racist b/c a few people exhibit bad behavior.
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All-In [30897]
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i don't think he is saying that at all......
Jun 23, 2005, 9:53 AM
[ in reply to Tell me, does that fact makes Tillman less racist....... ] |
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i think it was more of a glass house response.
The sooner we drop the subject all together the sooner we can all get on with the healing.
Honestly though Paddy, who seems to bring this topic up the most? Tigers or Coots?
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Scholar [4739]
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In all honesty, I'm usually only here so me perspective is.
Jun 23, 2005, 9:54 AM
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skewed just a bit.
I think it's a false argument for either school to bring to up.
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All-In [30897]
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i wish the subject would die all together.
Jun 23, 2005, 9:58 AM
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Like CT said, "the race card is played out!"
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Scholar [4739]
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Agreed. Sadly, I've said too too much on he issue.....
Jun 23, 2005, 9:59 AM
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I'll be quite!!
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Rock Defender [54]
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Let me say this...
Jun 23, 2005, 9:54 AM
[ in reply to Tell me, does that fact makes Tillman less racist....... ] |
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On BOTH coot messageboards, there are numerous references to Clemson being a racist school. Shoot, on GCN their mods pin (and write it) it at the top of their messageboards. Why? Not for the good of the kids that are considering attending USuC, but to sway recruits away from Clemson. What you're seeing here on tnet today is the same thing, but USuC sites do it much, much more. Is it right? No. But it's justified. An eye for an eye right?
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Orange Blooded [4745]
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Frankly, everyone would be better off if BOTH schools
Jun 23, 2005, 9:58 AM
[ in reply to Tell me, does that fact makes Tillman less racist....... ] |
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stopped discussing this issue. IMHO, what happened 100 years ago means nothing today, and I've heard very little, if any, racist comments from either side in my lifetime, and I am 46.
As a Clemson grad living in Columbia I hear a lot from both fans. The only slightly racial issue I remember hearing was a little surprise that Anthony Wright was the first African American QB to play for USC (1994), and that was almost 20 years after Clemson first played an African American QB (Willie Jordan played QB as a freshman in 1975).
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110%er [5630]
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I didn't say Clemson praises racist views.
Jun 23, 2005, 9:44 AM
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I do know that you don't see Gamecock fans throwing around the name Desaussure in celebration.
Look, I know that was the way of the world back then. I'm not blind to the fact that it's a little silly for 2 schools in the state of SC to accuse the other of having racism in it's past. I probably shouldn't have mentioned Ben Tillman in this argument. It wasn't necessarily the right direction to go to make my point. I apologize.
I still think however that it is no less wrong to create a campaign against USC fans and recruiting on Tnet, built on a single woman's post that is viewed as racist.
That in my opinion is just as helpful in breeding racism as you accuse this woman of being. If this woman is truly as insensitive as you suggest, she no doubt shows it often, and most Gamecocks probably view her the same way you do.
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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but then you have the issue of southern Lexington County..
Jun 23, 2005, 9:54 AM
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LOL
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Rock Defender [54]
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Are you using the "our guy is less racist than your's"
Jun 23, 2005, 9:45 AM
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argument? That's quite an argument.
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Expert [1287]
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I think the big thing is that we honor Tillman for what he
Jun 23, 2005, 9:45 AM
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did for the good of Clemson, not what he did that hurt blacks. I hate that our society has turned to view things as pass/fail, and that his entire legacy should be erased because of his position of equality of manking, no matter how wrong he was on that subject.
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Scholar [4739]
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I agree 100%. Well said, very well said!!******
Jun 23, 2005, 9:50 AM
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Rock Defender [50]
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Re: I think the big thing is that we honor Tillman for what he
Jun 23, 2005, 9:54 AM
[ in reply to I think the big thing is that we honor Tillman for what he ] |
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I agree. Both institutions of higher learning that I attended had a building named for Ben Tillman. Winthrop University and Clemson University. In fact, being sister schools, the Tillman buildings at both campuses are similar in appearance. You want to talk about racism? How about every school, college or otherwise, having buildings named after Strom Thurmond? This is a man famous for organizing the longest filibuster in history in opposition to Civil Rights. Of course he did a complete 180 in later years and of course we all found out about his affair with an African woman that resulted in a secret love child. So if they want to go back in history and talk about racism, they are basically saying "hey kettle, I'm the pot, you're black". As well as many other educational and government buildings in South Carolina.
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Expert [1287]
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but does what Strom did/said wrong wipe out the good
Jun 23, 2005, 9:59 AM
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he did?
Ask that question about any historical figure.
Ask that about yourself.
You can't ignore the bad things, but you can't let them erase the good, either.
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Rock Defender [50]
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Re: but does what Strom did/said wrong wipe out the good
Jun 23, 2005, 10:04 AM
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I agree, I am just adding that in for good information. I think Strom was simply a product of the political machine. He would say or do whatever would get him elected. I don't defend his views on racism in the past in any way, but his affair with an african american during his staunchest days of civil rights resistance shows that his political ideals were all for show.
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All-In [29037]
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Sad but true of us both
Jun 23, 2005, 9:50 AM
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I haven't chimed in until now about this whole racist post vs racist Ben Tillman stuff, but I'm thinking we've all pushed this a bit far.
1. Both schools (by nature of being institutions founded Southerners of a by-gone era) have plenty of racists in their history. Neither school in its current situation would, for a moment, argue that the racist views held by those men (and women) are right.
My great-grandfather was a man of his Souther generation raise with the segragationalist view of superiority. He was a good man who was DEAD wrong on that issue. I can love him and remember his good traits while all the while deploring that side of him. That also means I can't look at my neighbour and call his family racist because of something his greatgrandfather espoused. It applies to the schools as well.
2. Both schools still have folks who are fans of the school and still hold onto their racist views. I've heard comments as Clemson games and at USC games, and I've told both folks to be quiet. We can argue about which school has more of them then the other, but I'm guessing were we to find the answer we'd all be sitting here shaking our head at how darn even those numbers would be.
3. 1 fan's post on a message board is not representative of a whole fan base whether the post is from a Tiger or a Gamecock.
4. Names being thrown abut like 'KKKlemson' serve no purpose, and are idiotic.
That said, race is a divisive issue. It polarizes. It seperates. And yet, Clemson and USC are rivals and must understand that neither is more or less associated with racists than the other.
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110%er [7035]
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best post I've seen on the issue yet.. nm.***
Jun 23, 2005, 9:54 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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We are in the south. It does not take much to find shameful
Jun 23, 2005, 9:51 AM
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examples of racism and bigotry in our history.
I think it is amazing the amount of progress that has been made since the 1964 murders in MS. 40 years is a mighty short time from an historical perspective. There is still plenty to be achieved by all parties, but we do seem to be making progress.
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All-Conference [447]
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Football season can't come soon enough!
Jun 23, 2005, 9:55 AM
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Tillman vs. Desaussure, that one was the last straw. BUT
Leggett vs. no-Leggett Clemson.
Recruits they got vs. recruits we did or didn't want.
Hey, read this link of something a dumb coot said on a USC board vs. hey, shut up on this board dumb coot.
Our new QB is good, really vs. USC's unsigned masterplan QB will be better.
Hey, the view of the WEZ webcam sucks vs. hey, look, they're building scaffolding for another floor.
SPOT THE #### BALL.
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Orange Blooded [3454]
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Apples and Oranges
Jun 23, 2005, 10:03 AM
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You have to consider these men in accordance with the time they lived and the prevailing ideals of the society at that time. That doesn't mean that they were right it just means that from the prevailing perspective of the time they weren't out of the main stream and didn't think of it as racism. Heck, racism didn't exist in their minds just as political correctness didn't exist 20 years ago. Slaves were considered chattel (property) and not people. Much of that belief and attitude continued with the people that were born in the 1800s. Let's just live in the year 2005 and stop the foolishness of ripping on people who were dead and buried a hundred years ago. Spot the Ball!
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Rock Defender [50]
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Sorry, I blacked out...
Jun 23, 2005, 10:07 AM
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Politics, History? Let's bring the buses around and run down the hill!!
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Orange Blooded [3454]
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Now your talkin' big guy!***
Jun 23, 2005, 10:17 AM
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50
