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All-TigerNet [13190]
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More of a general Clemson question than a sport question
Jul 11, 2010, 10:39 PM
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U.T. Austin is considering renaming on of their dorms, which is named after a former professor / prominent member of the KKK. Do you think Clemson would ever look into renaming Tillman Hall. Ben Tillman was one of the most viscous racists in South Carolina History, and yet, our second most recognizable landmark is named after him.
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110%er [5915]
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Re: More of a general Clemson question than a sport question
Jul 11, 2010, 10:42 PM
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Ever is a long time.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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He was certainly one of the biggest racists
Jul 11, 2010, 10:46 PM
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during reconstruction, and that is one of the more racisity periods of our fine states existence.
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110%er [6169]
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Revisionist history is always a bad idea
Jul 11, 2010, 10:48 PM
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Radicals tend to think it's a good idea, but what they don't get is that once you go down that path, the dominoes start falling.
For some reason people don't see the effects of revisionist history. If we go back and rewrite history, then it's inevitable that someone will go back and rewrite our history.
You learn from mistakes and move on. You don't try and pretend like events didn't happen. Without major events, good and bad, we have no identity.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I don't know, it wouldn't be revising history
Jul 11, 2010, 10:55 PM
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Ben Tillman would still exist in history books, his name would just stop being honored. Germany didn't revise history when they removed Nazis stuff. Sadam Hussein didn't vanish when his statue was torn down. There must be a difference between "revising history" and removing a memorial to a shameful person. Then again, the fact that people of every race use Tillman hall would make Big Ben roll over in his grave. In fact, he would probably demand that his name be removed from such a building. So maybe it's a good way to spite him after all.
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110%er [6169]
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The meaning of symbols change with time
Jul 11, 2010, 10:59 PM
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Memorials are an excellent example of both honoring and/or reminding us what we come from.
Ben Tillman was racist in his philosophy, yes. But a great deal of his racism dealt with his environment. And he also did a great deal of good for the state of SC and for Clemson University. If it weren't for him, countless blacks wouldn't be getting their degrees from Clemson today.
You have to view things objectively. Memorials don't have to serve as honorable if time changes their meaning. They can also serve as negative reminders, if need be.
I just think trying to go back and erase monuments and memorials simply because opinions change creates a domino effect that is extremely dangerous.
200 years from now people will think we are a bunch of barbarians. Does that mean they should tear down our memorials?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Sen. Byrd just died, was in the KKK, yet Obama & Clinton
Jul 12, 2010, 12:49 AM
[ in reply to I don't know, it wouldn't be revising history ] |
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as well as the NY Times made him out to be a hero.
When Strom Thurmond died the NY Times made it sound like he was the biggest racist in Senate history and Strom couldn't hold a candle to the racist past of Byrd.
The minute you let liberals, radicals, progressives, and others of that ilk dictate ANYTHING you're destroying the past, which is important to the present & future!
Obama & his wife campaign for America to "change our history, our traditions" in order to be a better country, which is stupid. We are who we are, we should learn from the past to be better in the future!
Only 20% of this country is liberal, but we've let them and political correctness set this country on a course to ruin. Revisionist history is just one small part of their agenda!
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CU Medallion [57609]
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you want to see racists? look to the New Black Panthers
Jul 12, 2010, 8:10 AM
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For Pete's sake. Can you imagine if this were Klansmen talking about being too strong about getting too white on some blacks? When will we see Klansmen with torches at polling places, and Eric Holder decide not to prosecute? No Justice, No Peace!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JunrpGf5QRc
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110%er [6937]
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110%er [5915]
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Re: More of a general Clemson question than a sport question
Jul 11, 2010, 10:54 PM
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George Washington owned 316 slaves at his death.
Should we start by changing our capital's name?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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That was a different time period
Jul 11, 2010, 10:57 PM
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Tillman came in an era where he was fighting to keep blacks from having rights that they were actually entitled to have. Sure, Washington had slaves, most of the founding fathers did, and it's a dark piece of history, but once slavery was abolished, a certain faction worked hard to keep free blacks as close to slaves as possible, and that, in my opinion is far worse.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Also, you must agree
Jul 11, 2010, 10:59 PM
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That George Washington had much more on the plus side of the ledger than Ben Tillman had. I mean Washington is the father of our country, and Tillman was the father of segregation, hatred, and bigotry.
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110%er [6169]
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You're being unfair to history
Jul 11, 2010, 11:01 PM
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If we're going to go back and modify our feelings bout Tillman, where does the line stop?
Why not go back and do the same for Abraham Lincoln, who supported exporting American blacks to Africa? Why not go back and do the same for Washington, who owned countless slaves? Why not go back to Alexander the Great, who had entire nations worth of slaves?
Once you get that ball rolling, it's unfair to point to one point in history and say, "That's where we should stop." You're creating a double-standard, at that point.
You can't hold history hostage to today's standards.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Here is a direct quote from Ben Tillman
Jul 11, 2010, 11:07 PM
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"We have done our level best [to prevent blacks from voting] ... we have scratched our heads to find out how we could eliminate the last one of them. We stuffed ballot boxes. We shot them. We are not ashamed of it." (Logan, p. 91)
So, first, please don't tell me that he had anything to do with blacks graduating from Clemson.
I said, Ben Tillman was a viscous racist. That is a fair statement, and one that Ben Tillman would agree with, is it not?
I'm not being "unfair to history" I'm simply stating what "Pitchfork" Ben would have freely admitted to himself.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Here is another dircect quote from ol' Pitchfork
Jul 11, 2010, 11:09 PM
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The black man, in Tillman's words, "must remain subordinate or be exterminated".
Sounds a little like Hitler to me, just insert Jews with black man. Hitler had the power, and thank god Ben Tillman didn't.
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Orange Blooded [2429]
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Re: Here is a direct quote from Ben Tillman
Jul 11, 2010, 11:11 PM
[ in reply to Here is a direct quote from Ben Tillman ] |
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You can just call it PC hall every time you see it. Or Liberal Hall or whatever you wish. When I see or hear about Tillman Hall I have loving thoughts of my Alma Mater. I have no thoughts of racism at all. You can't change history , you just learn from it. I bet the new black panthers would agree with you though in fact I bet they would love to blow it to pieces.
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110%er [6169]
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I can play that game
Jul 11, 2010, 11:17 PM
[ in reply to Here is a direct quote from Ben Tillman ] |
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"It is true that the negro is inferior to the white in the gifts of nature."
"...as [blacks and whites] cannot so live while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position, the negroes should be denied everthing"
- Abraham Lincoln
Ben Tillman was a vicious racist. I'll agree with that. But he did contribute to blacks graduating from Clemson. Ben Tillman did more to establish Clemson as a university than Thomas G. Clemson himself did. Tillman, using Clemson's gift, is the one who pushed the creation of the college through the state government.
Due to Tillman's contributions to creating Clemson A&M, Clemson evolved into what it is today - which is a diverse university. Without Tillman, it wouldn't be here.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Sorry, Ben Tillman never helped a black man
Jul 11, 2010, 11:23 PM
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Your comparison would be similar to saying "Adolph Hitler helped the Jews because without him, there would be no Israel."
Sure, maybe there wouldn't be a Clemson without Ben Tillman, but giving Ben Tillman any credit for a black man or woman graduating from Clemson is insulting to history, and actually very insulting to Ben Tillman.
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110%er [6169]
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I'm not giving him 'credit.'
Jul 11, 2010, 11:30 PM
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I'm pointing out an observation.
Regardless, you still have not addressed the idea of revisionist history.
Where do you draw and the line and who determines it? You can't hold Tillman to one standard and his predecessors to another. You're not considering historical perspective if you do that. That would be like holding people today against the future, which is, of course, impossible.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I'm not revising history one bit
Jul 11, 2010, 11:35 PM
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If you want to read about Ben Tillman, you certainly can. History is what happened. I'm not revising it. Some people seem to try and forgive it with a "that was a different time" argument. I'm just asking if the man should be honored, and yes it is an honor, by having his named affixed to one of the most cherished landmarks in Clemson. Would the clock tower be any less important if it was called something else? I'm don't want to remove Tillman from history, I just don't know if it's a good idea to still have his name on a building.
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Orange Blooded [2429]
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Re: I'm not revising history one bit
Jul 11, 2010, 11:36 PM
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Does John C Calhoun have to go too?
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110%er [6169]
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Back to my memorials argument....
Jul 11, 2010, 11:43 PM
[ in reply to I'm not revising history one bit ] |
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They don't have to stand as a memorial of honor. They can stand as a reminder, as well.
And I've read plenty on Tillman. I have two biographies of him on my bookshelf, including the most renowned one by Stephen Kantrowitz, and I am graduating in August with a degree in History. My emphasis is Southern studies.
Changing the name of Tillman Hall does what? Tell me what it accomplishes. It's not honoring him if you don't interpret it that way. People more associate it with Clemson University than they do with Ben Tillman. Most people probably couldn't even tell you who it's named after.
Memorials can stand as honors to those associated with it or simply as a reminder. The interpretation is up to you.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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It's ok because people don't know who TIllman is?
Jul 11, 2010, 11:49 PM
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What kind of argument is that? Maybe Clemson should require a South Carolina history class. I'm actually very proud of my University. I have and English degree from Clemson a history minor, with an Emphasis on Southern Literature and History, and I have Ben Tillman & the Reconstruction of White Supremacy by Stephen Kantrowitz on my bookshelf is well.
The building is named in honor of Ben Tillman. It's not there as a reminder to what an a - hole he was. That doesn't fly.
Changing the name of Tillman hall would remove Ben Tillman's name from a place of honor, and he was not an honorable man, not in his time or our time.
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110%er [6169]
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Neither were Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, or Lincoln
Jul 11, 2010, 11:53 PM
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if you're going to compare them to today's standards.
People even 50 years ago weren't honorable men compared to today's idea of tolerance.
And, with all due respect, it's clear that you spent more time in an English classroom than one of history. You're arguing based on emotion, not based on logic. That's not an insult - it's just a byproduct of the more liberal education in English.
Your objectivity went out the window long ago.
And I'm not saying it's "ok" because people don't know who Tillman is. I'm arguing that a memorial - any memorial - is up to interpretation, and it's your job to solidify an argument for yours.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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What was the original purpose of naming Tillman Hall?
Jul 11, 2010, 11:58 PM
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That is a simple question. Was it to honor Ben Tillman or was it to remind us that Ben Tillman was a racist, who advocated murder? It was meant to be a memorial honoring the man. Is that not correct? So in fact Tillman was being Honored by having his name on the building.
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Legend [17376]
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Re: What was the original purpose of naming Tillman Hall?
Jul 12, 2010, 12:06 AM
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I don't mean to get in the way of an interesting and civil debate. You gentlemen know a lot more about Tillman than I do. I have actually enjoyed learning from both sides in this debate.
But wasn't Tillman Hall named to honor Tillman for his work to establish Clemson and not his entire body of work?
Which leads me to the question: do you think it is okay to honor an accomplishment of a person who was also responsible for dishonorable acts?
My initial thinking is it probably it depends on the relative strengths of the good vs. bad.
Message was edited by: tigerband1®
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Tillman hall was named to honor his contributions to Clemson
Jul 12, 2010, 12:11 AM
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I can not dispute that, and it is a slippery slope when you start weighing the good against the bad. I can not dispute that either.
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All-In [27400]
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110%er [5915]
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From your question and responses to others' opinions
Jul 11, 2010, 11:32 PM
[ in reply to Sorry, Ben Tillman never helped a black man ] |
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it is pretty clear that you think the name should be changed.
You might want to take it on as a cause.
You might want to also get rid of his statue on the SC Statehouse grounds and look into Strom Thurmond too.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I think it should be changed, yes
Jul 11, 2010, 11:41 PM
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However, I don't think that I'm in a position to demand anything of anyone. It would be interesting if more people actually knew the history of Ben Tillman.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: I hope you never get in position to change it. You sound
Jul 12, 2010, 1:28 PM
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like a flaming socialist.
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Legend [15223]
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110%er [6321]
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Re: Here is a direct quote from Ben Tillman
Jul 11, 2010, 11:27 PM
[ in reply to Here is a direct quote from Ben Tillman ] |
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If you did a research of your family tree and found that there were vicious racist there, would you be in favor of changing your last name so not to honor the family name? Tillman was a product of the times he lived in. Things change and so do people. Who knows, if in the right time and place, Tillman may have become a total opposite of what he believed then.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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No, I wouldn't change my last name
Jul 11, 2010, 11:32 PM
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However, that's not the question. I had nothing to do with my last name. Ben Tillman had everything to do with being a racist. He was considered a horrible racist during his time, not just now. Unless you consider what he did some way morally acceptable. Times may change, but what's moral should not. Though shalt not kill is pretty old.
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110%er [6321]
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Re: No, I wouldn't change my last name
Jul 11, 2010, 11:52 PM
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You don't know that he had everything to do with being a racist. It could and probably was what he was taught by his family. The majority of white people felt the same way during that time. During that time, you did not see teen pregnancy like you do today. Having premarital sex was considered extremely immoral then. Those morals have changed. Now I realize that is extreme to compare that to killing...but morals are morals. Tillman is not being honored for being a racist, he is being honor for what he did for Clemson. Big difference there. The Kennedy's have their names on lots of buildings....and their morals sure were high standard. But, that is not what they are honored for.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Murder has never been moral
Jul 11, 2010, 11:56 PM
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Sorry, you can't make that leap. Thou shalt not kill has been around a long time. You can't equivocate that one. It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill (except for black people). That is one of the Ten Commandments. If he was a Christian Man, regardless of his upbringing, he could never advocate murder.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Might not of been moral, but it was legal. Tillman was in
Jul 12, 2010, 1:02 AM
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1800s, but well into the 1900s, almost half the century, if a white man killed his wife or a black out of a sudden fit or rage he didn't even get arrested much less go to court.
This is 2010 and people like Jesse Jackson are the biggest racists in America because of PC crap by apologists like you that has taken over beyond any rational level of common sense!
From the 1960s back you'll find racists and worse in pretty much any public figure. Or crooks like the Kennedys. Cooledge was President well after the turn of the century and he was a huge racist!
Overt racism didn't start to truly decline in America, not just the south, but all of America, until the 1970s.
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110%er [5915]
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Re: That was a different time period
Jul 11, 2010, 11:24 PM
[ in reply to That was a different time period ] |
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A different time - yes in deed.
It is also interesting to note that there is a Tillman Hall at Winthrop.
And all female university started by????
Tillman didn't receive a single woman's vote.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Different time period
Jul 11, 2010, 11:29 PM
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You can excuse a man for his crimes because they happened in a "different time period"? Tillman wasn't just a racist, he was the racist in South Carolina. So because it was socially acceptable to kill black people we can look back now and say "Oh, it wasn't that bad, other white folks thought that killing black folks was o.k. too". Ben Tillman wasn't a bad man, he was just a man of his time. He was considered the racist of his time period by many. He created controversy with his overt racism during his time period.
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110%er [6169]
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Are you a bad person today?
Jul 11, 2010, 11:33 PM
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I assure you people 300 and 400 years down the road will find fault with your lifestyle.
That doesn't mean you're a complete cold-hearted #######. It means that your opinions developed by your environment led you to live a certain life.
Tillman's actions were unfortunate, but you can't use today's perspective against him. He had absolutely no way of knowing what equality between blacks and whites was. Almost nobody did until the mid-20th century.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Tillman's actions were unfortunate
Jul 11, 2010, 11:40 PM
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Now we're understating things a bit, aren't we. Unfortunate, is not instigating lynching and attempting to disenfranchise and entire race of people. Am I a perfect person, certainly not, have I committed crimes against humanity? No.
Plenty of people were working towards equality in his own time period. That's why he was such a controversial figure, in his own time. Please, address that point. He was a controversial figure in his own time because of his racist politics. True or False?
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110%er [5915]
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He was apparently very popular during his time.
Jul 11, 2010, 11:46 PM
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He was elected to the US Senate and served for 24 years.
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110%er [6169]
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Yes he was a racist
Jul 11, 2010, 11:47 PM
[ in reply to Tillman's actions were unfortunate ] |
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And yes he was controversial, though not near to the degree that you seem to think. Nobody is denying his views. But regardless of why he was a racist, the fact still remains that his environment, both chronological and geographical, largely shaped Tillman's opinions.
He was a product of his environment, the same way that you are today. Again, people a few hundred years down the road will hold their standards against you. That's not fair, and you shouldn't do the same.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I agree, he is a "product of his environment"
Jul 12, 2010, 12:02 AM
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So are thousands of other horrible people. We are all "products of our environment". So, maybe it wasn't his fault that he was a racist. Does that excuse his actions. Serial Killers are often "products of their environment", does that excuse what they do? You should have just stopped with "Ben Tillman was a racist". I understand that he grew up in a time where racism was the norm, but you would have to qualify his overall views as extreme even for his time period, would you not?
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Rock Defender [54]
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110%er [5915]
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Re: Different time period
Jul 11, 2010, 11:43 PM
[ in reply to Different time period ] |
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Yes.
Tillman was elected and served as governor for 4 years and US Senator for 24 years.
His politics may disgust people today, but he evidently was a popular figure during his time.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Hitler was a popular figure in Germany
Jul 11, 2010, 11:44 PM
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does that mean what he did was o.k., because it was accepted by the German people in "his time period"?
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110%er [5915]
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Are you equating Ben Tillman to Adolph Hitler?
Jul 11, 2010, 11:49 PM
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You may want to start with Tillman's statue on the SC Statehouse grounds and also check up on Strom Thurmond.
We have a building named after him too.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Both racists
Jul 11, 2010, 11:53 PM
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However, Strom somewhat redeemed himself in his latter years. Is he a pleasant part of South Carolina history, for the most part, no.
Yes, I believe that if Ben Tillman was in put in a position where he was able to exterminate black people, he would have done it. That is based on his words.
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Orange Blooded [2429]
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Re: Both racists
Jul 11, 2010, 11:54 PM
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Please take this sh.. to the lounge or fgf.
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110%er [5915]
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What are your feelings on Senator Robert Byrd?
Jul 12, 2010, 12:00 AM
[ in reply to Both racists ] |
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Also, you need to look into Wade Hampton, another famous South Carolinian.
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Orange Blooded [2429]
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Re: What are your feelings on Senator Robert Byrd?
Jul 12, 2010, 12:01 AM
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Now CG you should know that donkeys are never racists.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Sorry, Tillman was a democrat
Jul 12, 2010, 12:03 AM
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So I can't agree with you.
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110%er [5915]
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Double entendre aside,
Jul 12, 2010, 12:08 AM
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Please don't research my nickname here and Clemson University.
Things change over time, and society is almost always better for it.
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Orange Blooded [4483]
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110%er [6169]
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You need to refocus your argument
Jul 11, 2010, 11:49 PM
[ in reply to Hitler was a popular figure in Germany ] |
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And you need to research your history.
Tillman's political career is not in any way comparable to Hitler's rise to power.
You've got too many arguments going on in too many sub-threads, and you're losing touch with your argument.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I would say Hitler and Tillman had similar ideology
Jul 12, 2010, 12:05 AM
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They believed that their race was superior to other races were sub-human. I am not comparing their actions, but their ideology is similar.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Plenty of people today hold the same beliefs and books like
Jul 12, 2010, 1:13 AM
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"The Bell curve" give statistical & scientific credence to those beliefs. Yet the only people allowed to be publicly racist today are blacks like Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et al because of the liberal media and PC minded folks like you!
Sen. Robert Byrd just recently died and he was a Democrat but also a bigger racist than Strom Thurmond ever thought about being and was a member and recruiter for the KKK. Yet Obama & Bill Clinton think he was a great American hero! Had he been a Republican they be calling him a racist & bigot!
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Legend [16271]
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Keep the light on.
Jul 12, 2010, 12:03 AM
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It is likely that Clemson will look at renaming Tillman Hall at some point in time. It is the nature of the PC beast.
It's a shame, though, to see historical facts and figures revised to the point where we are shielded from the realities of the times. Our past should serve as an accurate map to where we are today, allowing us a better understanding of who we are, the challenges that lie ahead, and examples of the consequences of certain actions so that we may choose the most prosperous path onward.
Were Tillman a man of the late 20th century, I doubt he would have wielded the same racist passions he did during his day. We evolve in our thoughts, perspectives, and actions, both as individuals and societies. You can look back at a massive number of great figures in history and uncover abhorrant beliefs and attitudes, at least as we see them today.
Instead of revising history and graywashing uncomfortable episodes, we should make every effort to embrace it for what it was, learn from it, and carry the torch forward with the understanding that we are constantly taking steps towards a higher truth.
One hundred years from now, regardless of how earnest you feel about any particular topic and how righteously justified it may seem, what will they say about us?
Clemson's existence owes much to Ben Tillman, and he should be recognized for it. The dark side is part of the territory, and it's something we should't hide from. The truth will set you free, and should be a gauge of how far we've come as a university, a state, and a people.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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That is certainly a valid argument
Jul 12, 2010, 12:09 AM
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I am not so arrogant to say that my beliefs should trump others beliefs. It's late on a Sunday night, and I saw that another traditionally Southern school (U.T. Austin) is considering renaming one of their dorm room. It is an interesting argument.
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Rock Defender [54]
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You do realize Austin is an incredibly liberal town, yes?***
Jul 12, 2010, 1:21 AM
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110%er [5915]
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Re: Keep the light on.
Jul 12, 2010, 12:11 AM
[ in reply to Keep the light on. ] |
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WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I'm headed to bed - Thanks for the intersting discussion
Jul 12, 2010, 12:14 AM
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I think we all agree that we love Clemson. It is nice to have a conversation with intelligent folks, and it is much easier to find those folks on a Clemson website. I hope you all have a wonderful week and Go Tigers. Good Night.
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Legend [17376]
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I confess I believe a certain group of folks is superior to
Jul 12, 2010, 12:27 AM
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another group ....
TIGERS > #####
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110%er [6169]
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I'm glad to see people can disagree and still debate
Jul 12, 2010, 12:32 AM
[ in reply to I'm headed to bed - Thanks for the intersting discussion ] |
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Normally this turns into someone getting out of hand.
Can't say I agree with much of anything you said tonight, but kudos on conducting yourself in an argument. It's a rare thing these days.
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Fan [83]
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Re: More of a general Clemson question than a sport question
Jul 12, 2010, 6:19 AM
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You don't change anything.
You cannot and should not apply today's morals to something that happened years ago.
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Oculus Spirit [94260]
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What if we find that Thomas Clemson was a racist?
Jul 12, 2010, 6:31 AM
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Do we insist that the name be changed to WFGBSDPRU?
"We Feel Guilty Because Someone in the Distant Past was a Racist U?"
I don't think so!
Stop worring about feelings that don't pertain to us today. Stop worring about someone else's feelings who would exploit our University and
GO TIGERS!
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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No thanks, I don't want anything to do with that curse***
Jul 12, 2010, 7:17 AM
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All-In [49613]
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Just a quick tip of the hat...
Jul 12, 2010, 7:36 AM
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...for a reasoned, if essentially unanswerable, debate. Wish I had been here for it, and there's no reason for me to stir the embers. But I appreciate seeing folks generally stick to the question at hand, not tripping down the blind alleys that so often derail such subjects.
Ultimately, had there been no Ben Tillman, there would be no Clemson, hence to Tillman Hall to name after him. And there would be no pitchfork curse, so it's entirely possible that UCS would indeed be the premiere sports university in our state.
So, no matter what you think of Tillman's racial beliefs (and by extension the beliefs of much of the White South a century ago) you must maintain his name on Tillman Hall for his ongoing efforts in the cause of bamboozling Gamecock athletics.
Which, I believe, all true sons of Clemson can applaud.
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MVP [548]
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I hope not.***
Jul 12, 2010, 8:20 AM
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All-In [28802]
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viscous? i thought he was pretty runny, myself***
Jul 12, 2010, 9:14 AM
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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EVERYONE was a racist back then. He was just more...
Jul 12, 2010, 10:47 AM
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successful at it.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: DO THATAT AND CU WILL LOSE A LOT OF MONEY. I
Jul 12, 2010, 1:18 PM
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belive Winthrop might be in the same boat. Did W. Virginians disown Sen. Byrd??
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