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All-In [49613]
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Forgive an old fool as I lurch back on the soapbox...
Sep 6, 2004, 9:02 AM
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I've had an interesting, respectful discussion after the game with a young man who obviously loves Clemson. We agree on many things about our school, and I believe that everyone on this board, barring those who are currently studying for their advianced drive-thru technology degrees downstate, would hold dear as well.
But on one major point we seem to disagree, so I'll put it to the body public for discussion: In Death Valley, does the team exist for the fans, or do the fans exist for the team?
His contention: The fans in the Valley are not under an obligation to cheer for the team. Let's say, for example a team starts a run on the Tigers, scoring...oh, I don't know, 24 points...to take the lead. My esteemed fellow Tiger fan says at that point neither he nor anyone else should feel obligated to yell for the team because they've obviously packed it in so why should he be expected to savage his voice.
My contention: That is EXACTLY the time the Tigers need that voice. While it's much easier to cheer when Clemson has taken a 19-3 lead and is kicking an opponent's butt, the time the Tigers really NEED support is when things are getting desperate. They need the fans to raise thier voices in an unfailing chorus of belief.
To only cheer when things are good is greedy at best, narcissistic at worst. It's like cheering for a chilld who hits the winning shot in pee-wee basketball, but making him walk home alone in the dark if he has an off night.
This notion of only cheering for a team when it "gives ME something to cheer about" is something I find deeply troubling. Could be the times. Could just be I'm a sucker who believes in my heart that my voice, my heart can be added to thousands of others and create a will, a jump start to fuel a team in need of a lift.
We're both good people, good Clemson men. But we have a disagreement on this point, so I figured I'd ask other good Clemson men and women.
What say ye? Do we cheer for a team because we love them or because they give us something to cheer about?
If you don't feel like writing a reply, just vote with the thumbs. I've already got some Ginsu knives and don't worry about the points anyway.
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Team Captain [470]
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The question becomes
Sep 6, 2004, 9:10 AM
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What is the purpose of a cheer?
To celebrate or to inspire/fuel/motivate. If cheers are meant only for celebrations, then the young Clemson fan is right - he shouldn't cheer if the team isn't doing anything worth cheering about. If the cheer is meant to fuel the team, to inspire them to do more, to push harder, to win, then you are correct.
BUT the Bottom line is that cheers are meant for both purposes. We are MOVED to cheer when the Tigers succeed, but THE NEED US to cheer when they are struggling to get their focus and drive back. I couldn't imagine anything being more inspiring and motivating than a cheering crowd of 82,000.
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All-In [49613]
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Excellent point...
Sep 6, 2004, 9:25 AM
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If a fan is cheering because the team makes him or her feel good, then it would follow that cheering lackluster play would be silly, even hypocritical.
If a cheer comes from a desire to be counted as part of the greater group, sort of like that cheesy "Braveheart" clip they show up at State, then it obviously means something besides "Hey, y'all did good!"
I reckon what troubled me was the "Here we are now, entertain us" attitude exhibited in the "cheer when things are going good" argument. Your point about reasoning for cheering is excellent, and frankly one I had not thought of.
So, if cheering is not used to rally a team, what then must we do as fans. How would we instill our will into the tiring hearts and bodies of Clemson? I'm open to suggestion, since yelling is my best solution and I refuse to sit back and go quietly. It's their game, but its my heart. And it may be greedy on my part, butI cannot let them fall without knowing I did all in my power to help.
Beyond voice, what else can a fan do at the game to help rally the team?
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null [250]
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I cheered for them even when they were behind, that's why
Sep 6, 2004, 9:13 AM
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my voice is still hoarse!!
I agree, I think that's when they need it the most. It's obvious they get charged by all the noise fans make. Heck, when it got noisy, I got a bit of rush, imagine what it's like for the players.
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Letterman [253]
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This one isn't even hard...
Sep 6, 2004, 9:16 AM
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We cheer because they are our beloved Tigers and need to hear our support. And that's what fans do...
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Rock Defender [54]
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These are our Tigers, win or lose
Sep 6, 2004, 9:27 AM
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Those who only cheer when we are winning are not what I consider true fans. I am a fairly young Tiger fan, but feel it is my duty to support the team under all circumstances. I give money and go to every game I can because I love the Tigers. It is a misconception to think all younger Tiger fans share this gentleman's views. When things are looking grim, that is when the team needs a boost, something to light a fire. Otherwise we are simply fair-weather fans. I imagine this same gentleman would not have even come to the game had there not been as much anticipation about the season as there was. So ease your mind old Tiger, there are many younger die hards that share your views.
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All-TigerNet [14283]
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I lost my voice in the 1st quarter....
Sep 6, 2004, 9:20 AM
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and I still can't make a sound
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null [575]
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Though I never really considered it until yesterday...(long)
Sep 6, 2004, 9:21 AM
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... it seems that Tiger fans can be divided into two camps. The camp that I believe to be the majority by far feels, as you do, that we spectators are PART of the action and part of the experience of a Clemson game. We feel this is OUR team and we owe it to them to do anything we can to help gain a victory, even if the only thing we can do is lend our voices and our emotions. We stand often and try to make a lot of noise when the opponent has the ball. We try to make an impact and are active.
The other camp, which it sounds like your friend is a member of, seems to feel that they are going to the game to have a team entertain them. They cheer when things are going well, go quiet when the team is playing badly, get annoyed if someone in front of them stands up and impairs their view of the field and might even ask a fan to sit down and not make so much noise. It seems to me that these are very passive fans. They want something done to "earn" their cheers. They want to be as comfortable as possible and want to give minimum effort as a fan in exchange for maximum return of effort from the team. They talk about being "paying customers" and how that gives them the "right" to enjoy the game without the annoyance of people who feel more passionately about the game than they do.
I really don't know what to say about the second group that I just described. To be sure, some of them who fit that category will read what I have written and object but my own feeling is that they are simply more concerned with their own enjoyment than any other consideration. I find it hard to believe that any person who truly considers him/herself a fan of Clemson would say that, when the defense is waving their arms to try to get the crowd to make noise, what's more important is that the defense DO SOMETHING first to make them cheer. I would not have believed until yesterday that fans of our team would say that but I read it here so I know those people exist.
Bottom line, when I attend a Clemson game, sure, I want to enjoy it and I want to be entertained. But mostly I want to be a part of an experience that is more than myself. I want to do my part, if the team asks me to. When our defense comes out and waves its arms, I feel it is calling me, asking me to contribute the only thing I can: my noisy emotional support. Any "fan" who ignores that call, who says essentially "prove it to me first and then I'll cheer" is not much of a fan in my opinion.
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All-In [49613]
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Agreed: But those who don't give their heart and voice...
Sep 6, 2004, 9:27 AM
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...can never know what it feels like to truly share in the victory.
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Orange Blooded [4610]
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I have considered this before...
Sep 6, 2004, 11:02 AM
[ in reply to Though I never really considered it until yesterday...(long) ] |
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and I think there are merits both ways -- not excepting the fact that we should always cheer for our Tigers.
Obviously it is easy to cheer in celebration of the team performing well.
When they are down, it is harder to put forth a lot of effort, especially if the crowd starts to get the feeling that the team has given up. It is like fire. A small spark needs help (blowing on it) to turn into a raging inferno. As long as the team has a spark, cheering in support of that spark may be the turning point. Down by 8 points with 12:30 to play, there was a spark, and the crowd I thought did a pretty good job helping the team. Several 3rd down stops were well supported in my section.
But if the team is content to be a pile of wet logs with no spark, well then cheering wildly for them would make us little better than delusional coots. Fortunately, I don't think we'll see that from this team.
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Fan [67]
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Re: Forgive an old fool as I lurch back-Class of 70
Sep 6, 2004, 9:22 AM
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I could not agree with you more. There was a time when we did lots of cheers-C-L-E-M-etc-because we were/are fans. Our school, our team, us! I am not in the student section now so I do not know if they still do those, but I do not seem to hear those cheers very often. I hope we get our "Valley" very intimidating again-I think we are well on our way.
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null [142]
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Brings back my previous discusson topic of
Sep 6, 2004, 9:34 AM
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Fans, Supporters and Boosters. The difference as I define it is:
Fans provide support (usually non-monetary or monetary of little value), despite circumstances and without expectations of receiving anything in return. They simply look to PARTICIPATE.
Supports provide support (monetary, vocal, et al) and have an expectation of "getting something for their money"
good seats, parking spaces, team performance, whatever
Boosters are the most heinous. Boosters provide significant financial support to the program and not only expect to receive something in return, but expect to have input or other effect on a program's direction.
Then again, I pretty cynical.
Discuss
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Asst Coach [702]
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As far as i'n concerned,it doesn't take much energy to just
Sep 6, 2004, 9:39 AM
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clap your hands at certain times if you're hoarse,or if you just want to save the voice you have left for a later more important point during the game.At least the clapping will become contagious to the other bump on the logs around you.
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Legend [18334]
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You're not old.
Sep 6, 2004, 9:55 AM
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 nor fool either!
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Associate AD [833]
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Back in the day(80's),the crowd, led by the mic man and the
Sep 6, 2004, 10:07 AM
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students, got incrementally louder as a team got closer to our goaline. The crowd this weekend was PATHETIC where I was sitting. Unless they are wowed by a huge punt return or pass reception, they have their thumb squarely up their collective butts.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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i think there's no question...
Sep 6, 2004, 10:20 AM
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you gotta cheer for the team. i have not always done so. like many (most?) at death valley, i have let the hot sun and/or a run of points by the other team lull me into quiet observation. but that doesn't do much to get the team up. i have thought about this a lot and have come to the conclusion that i as a fan am not owed a #### thing by the team/players/coaches on the field. i am there to watch and be entertained and cheer them on. they DON'T OWE ME ANYTHING. we on the other hand owe them our support. and regardless of how much money you give in may or june, that doesn't matter for $h!t come saturday afternoon in the valley. i've been going to these games for about 15 years now and i've always been completely amazed at how quiet death valley gets when we get behind. what's particularly troubling is the fact that on any given saturday (this weekend included) there are a bunch of recruits sitting over there watching the game. i have to say that if i were a recruit i would not always be impressed with the fan support we offer AT THE GAMES. that being said, if you're sitting in front of me and my wife, please sit your a$$ down. 
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All-American [595]
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Re: Forgive an old fool as I lurch back on the soapbox...
Sep 6, 2004, 10:33 AM
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I have felt both ways at times. Especially ion Hatfields last two years.
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All-Conference [439]
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I cheer for the team . . . period.
Sep 6, 2004, 10:39 AM
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No matter what the score, no matter what the situation, I cheer for my Tigers when they are on the field. I feel like the cheering from the crowd is there to motivate the team. Now I may have opinions about things being done differently when things are not going well. But those things only surface Sunday through Friday.
On Saturdays, when the Tigers are on the field, the only thing that I will do is support my Tigers the best way I know how -- by screaming my head off.
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CU Guru [1297]
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Amen Rev, pass the plate******
Sep 6, 2004, 10:43 AM
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null [109]
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Re: Forgive an old fool as I lurch back on the soapbox...
Sep 6, 2004, 10:44 AM
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I could go back to the institution of college athletics and wax philosophic about why athletics were established but that would be too far to go to say what I want.
We, the fans, are part of the "family" that is Clemson - the university, the athletics and all that follows. Some of us were born into the family, some were adopted into the family, some became part of the family when we filled out the application, received the acceptance letter, enrolled in class, put on the ring and walked that aisle. However you became part of the family does not matter - if you have pledged your loyalty and devotion to the family.
Families support one another in a give and take relationship. Some family members expect more, give more, gripe more, love more, hug more, argue more... Regardless, families are supposed to love one another. Money shouldn't play a factor in families but it sometimes does for those whose values are little skewed. Eccentric people exist in families but we get over them and love them anyway, as long as they act with the best interest of the family in mind.
But one thing families should never, ever do is shoot their wounded! When our family is up we celebrate with them. When our family is down, we gather round them and bring them up. The important thing in the family is to preserve the values and character of the family while ensuring its survival - no, its success - no, its significance.
If Clemson University is significant only because of a sports team then our values are skewed. If Clemson University is significant only because of accomplishments by its individual family members, then we have become elitist. If Clemson University and its teams are significant because we love everyone who scored a touchdown or played only on scout teams, if we accept the Summa ### Laude students and the 2.7 GPA students as well, and if we loved the "sitters" as well as the fanatics then we are acting like a true family.
So perhaps the answer to the question is another question: Are we a family at Clemson University? I think we are and act like it most of the time!
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CU Medallion [58586]
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There is no question that a loud, very supportive crowd
Sep 6, 2004, 10:49 AM
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can only help our team, and they deserve that support win or lose, in good times and bad. The more noise we can make the better. I don't agree at all with the "what have you done for us lately" attitude.
At the same time, if the crowd is into it, at some point the team has to respond. If not, it's unrealistic to expect the fans to stay in a constant frenzy. Not doing so does not mean you are not a good fan, it's human nature.
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Standout [320]
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Chicken or the egg....
Sep 6, 2004, 11:02 AM
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This is one of those questions that really has no answer. I can tell you that one would not exist without the other.
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Commissioner [953]
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We cheer and they play for the same thing: Clemson
Sep 6, 2004, 11:10 AM
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This one is easy. Look up from the field across the top of the hill and gaze upon Tillman Hall. The bulk of us are there because of Clemson, not because of whomever might be populating the uniforms or coach's hats on any given day.
Coach Heisman on the sidelines -- cheer for Clemson.
Coach Howard on the sidelines -- cheer for Clemson.
Coach Bowden on the sidelines -- cheer for Clemson.
Same with the players -- McFadden, Fuller, Jordan, or Whitehurst taking the snap -- cheer for Clemson.
Perry brothers -- cheer for Clemson.
Kirkland -- cheer for Clemson.
Hill and Miller -- cheer for Clemson.
So ultimately, I exist that day, and I cheer for Clemson. Sure I applaud a spectacular play by an individual player. But overall, my butt is in that stadium for Clemson. And most of those players are on that field to play for Clemson.
So, next question: When do I cheer? Whenever it is needed. Great play or as a pick me up for the team.
I view the game as a battle (and no I'm not suggesting the sacrifice on a football field is comparable to the sacrifice our armed forces are making for us). We're holding a line. If one part of the line falters, you rush in reinforcements, you try to hold the line. If the players are down, the fans can be the reinforcements. Can the players rally our support and lead us all with outstanding plays -- of course. When all of Clemson is one (the fans and the team) great things will happen on the field. When one group falters, the other better be there to take up the slack.
Because in the end, its all about Clemson. So, if you ask me, I cheer for Clemson whenever Clemson needs me.
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Standout [304]
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Yell! Specifically,
Sep 6, 2004, 11:15 AM
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When our Offensive scores or does something to appreciate. Otherwise Im quiet while we have the Offense on the field.
DEFENSE: I yell on first downs, any short yardage situations, and Especially loud on ANY third down or fourth down conversions.
No matter the score at any point in the game win or loose.
If you truly love the team, there is no other option.
RTLB = rules to live by :o)
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null [85]
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Good stuff....................
Sep 6, 2004, 11:27 AM
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I'm right there with you, no voice today. When the team is "flat," I've seen the crowd snap them out of it. If somebody thinks that the crowd has no impact on the game, then you my friend are not a sports fan and never were.
We will get it rocking for the Tech game, should be a great one.
Go Tigers!
Nor Cal Tiger
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Team Captain [469]
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Its a symbiotic relationship. Without the team you would...
Sep 6, 2004, 11:28 AM
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have no fans, without the fans you would have no team. Each piece must do their part to make sure that the end result is successful.
Fans must support the team both emotionally and monitarily, and the team must work their tails off to make sure a good product is out on the field.
Sometimes our team has let down our fans (poor performances on the field, etc...)
Sometimes our fans have let down the team (low donation levels, booing, etc...)
If championships are to be won, it won't be either the teams job to produce for the fans, or the fans job to produce for the team, it will be both the teams job to produce, and the fan's job to support ($$$)!
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Legend [18310]
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Re: Forgive an old fool as I lurch back on the soapbox...
Sep 6, 2004, 11:59 AM
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I'm not as loud as most people but no Tiger can surpass my devotion to everything Clemson and that includes the football program; I hurt when they lose and I rejoice when they win but my love for Clemson and everything about it never varies an iota. This includes academics, sports, ambience, etc!!
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Orange Blooded [2361]
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I think our crowd was outstanding for about 50% of the game
Sep 6, 2004, 2:16 PM
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and mediocre for the rest of it. Much has been made about the Clemson program needing to "learn how to win again" after a decade of disappointment. The same can be said of our fans.
I agree with you about the crowd's role in the game. But crowds need to have faith in their team to continually get up and get loud even when things don't look so good. During the 1980s, the crowd had that faith...but after a decade of wandering in the wilderness, we have lots of new faces in Death Valley who haven't been given much of a reason to believe that their voices matter.
Death Valley needs to learn how to win again. In my opinion, yesterday was a good first step. I'm not worried about the new folks at Death Valley learning to contribute and raise hell. They are The Clemson Family; given a reason to have faith in our team and coaches, it will happen. Over the last few games we've been given some of those reasons. I'm looking forward to one of the best crowds we've seen in YEARS next week.
SouthernSun96
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