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Rock Defender [54]
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RE: Spence. Why is it everyday you log on someone is
Jul 25, 2008, 10:25 AM
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talking trash about Rob Spence?
I just don't get it. He's produced impressive offensive output and has broken records left and right. He's seen as a one of the top 10 offensive coordinators in the country (outside of some of our fans), and he is coveted by college and pro teams on an annual basis.
Furthermore, I feel like we are just now getting the players to be able to compete on a national scale. We have not only a few great players, but we are now getting several of them at QB, RB, WR, and TE. As we know the only unknown at this point is the offensive line - who by all accounts are highly recruited guys who just need experience to excel.
To think we've done what we've done with less than national level talent, is pretty impressive.
Here are some of the bullet points concerning what he's been responsible for:
? Spence was the architect of one of the most-improved offenses in Tiger history in his first season. The 2005 Tigers improved 89 yards per game in total offense over 2004, the fourth-biggest jump in school history and the eighth-best improvement among Division I teams.
? Clemson has been the most balanced team in the ACC each of the last three years.
? Clemson has led the ACC in scoring offense each of the last two years.
? In 2007, the Tigers led the ACC in scoring offense and finished second in total offense and rushing offense and finished third in passing offense.
? Clemson was the only team in the ACC with at least 2000 yards rushing and 3000 yards passing and averaged 403 yards of total offense per game.
? Clemson led the ACC in touchdowns with 51, the second highest total in school history.
? Clemson a league best four of the 11 ACC first team selections on offense.
? In 2008 Clemson and Tennessee will be the only BCS Conference schools with a returning 1000-yard rusher and a 1000-yard receiver from the 2007 season.
? Aaron Kelly had 88 receptions in 2007, tied for the second highest total in ACC history.
? Davis enters his senior year ranked second in Clemson history in rushing yards and total touchdowns.
? Spence has tutored three different quarterbacks in his three years to outstanding seasons. 2008 marks the first year he will work with a returning QB.
? In 2007, Cullen Harper led the ACC in passing efficiency and set 22 school records.
? Since Spence came to Clemson for the 2005 season, the Tigers have won at least eight games every year. It is the first time since the 1986-91 era that Clemson has won at least eight games three consecutive years.
? Clemson has finished in the top 25 of both polls two of the three seasons and has been to a bowl game all three years.
? In 2006, Clemson gained at least 2,500 yards rushing and passing, one of just four schools nationally to exceed those mark on both categories. It was also just the second time in school history it had been done.
? Clemson led the ACC and was in the top 13 in the nation in total offense, rushing offense, and scoring offense. It marked just the third time in history that the Tiger offense finished in the top 20 in all three areas in the same year.
? It was the first time any ACC team had led in all three areas since 1990, and it was just the second time it had been done by any ACC school in the last 25 years. It was also the first time Clemson had done it since 1978.0
? In 2008 Clemson and Tennessee will be the only BCS Conference schools with a returning 1000-yard rusher and a 1000-yard receiver from the 2007 season.
? In 2006. Clemson averaged a league-best 410 yards per game of total offense to finish 13th in the nation, the only ACC team to finish in the top 49 in the country in that category.
? In 2006, Clemson gained 719 more yards and scored 80 more points than its nearest ACC foe in 2006. It was quite an accomplishment considering the ACC had five of the top 18 teams in the nation in total defense.
? The Tigers also led the ACC in yards per play (6.5), touchdowns (55), and third-down conversion percentage (42). The touchdown total and yards-per-play figure were school records as well.
(source: Tim Bourrett)
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Letterman [257]
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If anyone says they weren't worried when Tennessee
Jul 25, 2008, 10:42 AM
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was calling, they're lying. I mean if Rob Spence left, who would we get that could put up better numbers production wise?
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Legend [15751]
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As long as we have a punter on the roster...
Jul 25, 2008, 10:44 AM
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We'll hear this stuff about Spence. According to some of our fans, we should never lose a game and every drive that doesn't end in a touchdown is an example of his incompetence. In fact, as long as they can point to one play that should have been something else, they feel comfortable in demeaning Spence's offense for an entire season.
Spence is the scapegoat for the ignorant perception of the denial of their birthright.
Sensible people know better. His offense is tops in the conference, and not because we rack up yards against cream puffs (as our schedules have not been easier than anyone else's and we haven't been running up the score intentionally). Obviously other programs recognize it (per the interviews he gets every off season) and the recruits recognize it too.
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Commissioner [905]
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Re: RE: Spence. Why is it everyday you log on someone is
Jul 25, 2008, 10:48 AM
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The simple answer is - we haven't lived up to expectations.
Of course, that is not solely on his shoulders, or anyone else's, including Bowden's. It's a team effort, and everyone has to get it done.
I think there is also a certain element of fans who feel the offense places too much emphasis on "gimmicky" types of things (like all the changing of the play at the line) rather than fundamental "toughness" types of things (like getting 3rd and 1.) Some believe the only good football team is one that lines up, tells you what play they are going to run, and then does it anyway.
I'm not saying Spence is necessarily to blame for any of this. Rather, I believe if we hadn't "blown it" in the past few years, and at least made it to the ACCCG (if not won it,) then the criticism would be much less.
Since we did not get there, there is general dissatisfaction, and some of it is going to be leveled at him.
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Walk-On [105]
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Re: RE: Spence. Why is it everyday you log on someone is
Jul 25, 2008, 10:51 AM
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Let me start by saying I understand I'm not a coach, and I don't pretend to know how hard it is to coach. My problem with Spence at times is from a play calling standpoint. For example, there have been several games in the past few years where it's 3rd and 5 or 6, and we go into a three TE set and we throw to a guy running a two yard flare pattern going out of bounds with no chance of getting a first down. Things like that make no sense to me or any of the other 80K there on a Saturday yet we continue to do it.
It also bothers me that so often we make no or very little adjustments going into the second half (see Georgia Tech) and consequently the offense is stagnated.
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Know-it-all [2486]
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You also don't have a good memory.
Jul 25, 2008, 12:16 PM
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We have NEVER, I repeat, NEVER lined up in a 3 TE set on 3rd and 5 or 3rd and 6 and thrown 2-yard "flare" (I assume you mean "out") route.
I'll admit that our QBs have, on more than one occassion, thrown to WRs on 3rd down when they were a few yards short of the sticks. I think most of these times, though, they were either the last option for the QB or the QB thought initially that the WR would be able to get enough YAC to keep the chains moving.
I mean really, do you seriously think Spence thought, "OK we need 5 or 6 more yards for a first, so let's throw a 2 yard 'flare' route and that oughta do it!"
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Rock Defender [54]
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To this post and all others in the same mold.......
Jul 25, 2008, 4:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: RE: Spence. Why is it everyday you log on someone is ] |
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NO coach or player on ANY level performs at a 100% every game. EVERY team has flat weeks and lose to teams they shouldn't.
Then there are teams who have good defenses, and there's a reason they have good defenses. EVERY team they play has more trouble operating their offense against that defense - that's what makes them a good defense! Just for instance, VT and Auburn were top 10 defenses and BC was not far behind. Even still, in all those cases we performed as well as or better than anyone.
Then to those that say we run up stats against bad teams, ALL teams play bad teams - and yet we still have the OVERALL production that's better than a good portion of the nation.
OVERALL the bullet points noted are fair and reasonable, and just as relevant as anyone's. They're also pretty darn good.
Now with our talent growing too, we will probably do even better.
To some of you, please set down the XBOX controller and try to understand real football.
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Rock Defender [54]
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point. good post.***
Jul 25, 2008, 10:54 AM
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CU Guru [1654]
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Ok I am not going to get into this to much with you but here
Jul 25, 2008, 10:55 AM
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is a little:
The offense is designed to not need elite players, that is why it worked at Toledo. In fact elite players skills are not utilized to their best ability in this dinky offense. And to be honesty, the worst thing about this offense is the fact that our Oline is in a standing 2 point stance the whole game (they would call it a standing 3 point since the oline is squated/bent more than your normal 2 point pass protect stance). You do not get explosion by coming out of a 2 point stance (ask any sprint coach)zone blocking or not. That is about all I am going to say.
I do know a little about football ( I played and started 4 years in college and worked as a college football strength coach for about 8 years). I am not saying I could do a better job than Spence I am just saying this is one reason why I do not like this offense (among many)
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Legend [15751]
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It's not the criticism that annoys me. It's the venom.
Jul 25, 2008, 11:11 AM
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Like, you think the two-point stance is a mistake. Okay, that's certainly a defendable position. Someone else said that the offense depends more on creative plays than it does "toughness". Worthy of discussion, I suppose.
So, if people came on here and said "Man, I just really miss the smash-mouth days...I wish Spence's offense was designed more around that." or "I wish some reporter would ask Spence about that two-point stance, because for the life of me I can't understand how it is worth a darn."...I think that's respectable.
But after all of these criticisms, when you look at the production of the offense and the type of players that want to be a part of his offense, how anyone can say that the guy is a moron or otherwise belittle him is just beyond me.
I'm not sure I agree that the offense is set-up for non-elite players, but that's just my opinion (and I have never played football).
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CU Guru [1654]
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I have no issues with your post at all***
Jul 25, 2008, 11:16 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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The two-point stance worries me, too. I talked with a former
Jul 25, 2008, 11:24 AM
[ in reply to Ok I am not going to get into this to much with you but here ] |
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Clemson starter from the 80's, and he says you just can't get the leverage you need on the guy you're blocking coming out of the two-point stance. He also says blocking a person is more effective than blocking a zone.
I like Coach Spence, just don't understand this blocking schemer.
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Legend [15751]
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If you were playing devil's advocate, what are the benefits
Jul 25, 2008, 11:35 AM
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of the two-point stance? Field vision? Mobility? It seems to be universally regarded as a bad idea, including people who played OL.
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Mascot [5090]
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The Broncos use it in the NFL with a ton of success.***
Jul 25, 2008, 11:41 AM
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Junkie [563]
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I wouldn't say ton
Jul 26, 2008, 12:37 AM
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did they even make the playoffs the last few years?
if its so great why doesn't everyone do it?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Well, I suppose it would be field vision. But what I don't
Jul 25, 2008, 1:01 PM
[ in reply to If you were playing devil's advocate, what are the benefits ] |
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see is how you get low enough. Maybe we should have the coaches do a little clinic for us. I'm not trying to be negative, I just don't see how it works.
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All-TigerNet [12092]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Toldeo played teams on their level.
Jul 25, 2008, 4:58 PM
[ in reply to Ok I am not going to get into this to much with you but here ] |
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The word is "relative". It's a relative comparison.
In other words, the offense is designed to work, period.
Plus, the two point stance has been used during the entire time we've been running up those records. Our rushing game has been fantastic when we have a good oline. How do you explain that?
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CU Guru [1654]
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I explain that by getting 400 yrds rushing against Furmans
Jul 26, 2008, 12:27 PM
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C.Michigan and the likes of them. The offensive scheme is avg at best. The fact that we shift 3 times before the ball is snapped every time including being down with 3 mins left is crazy, that just tells me Spence is stubborn and does not how to adjust/change when he needs to.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Same as any team in the country. You dont do as well against
Jul 26, 2008, 2:17 PM
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the better defenses on your schedule. That's the way it works and why some defenses are better than others. Some teams don't play any top 10 defenses in a year, let alone two like we did in 2007. But overall, again, you need to look at the big picture, which is what I think I posted.
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Mascot [5090]
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Because people are morons and don't know nearly as much
Jul 25, 2008, 10:58 AM
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about football as they like to believe they do.
Spence is a dang good coordinator. He is universally considered one of the 10 best in the country.
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Letterman [268]
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Re: RE: Nice
Jul 25, 2008, 11:00 AM
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I like the stats.
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Legend [18708]
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What about the GT & VT Games Where the Offense Did'nt
Jul 25, 2008, 11:02 AM
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Show Up? He is OC. A breakdown at any spot on the offense is his responsibility. If he needs to get better assistants, go get them. It is his offense. So far he chokes in the games that count !! I think he is a flop.
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Legend [15751]
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I give you "Exhibit A". ******
Jul 25, 2008, 11:11 AM
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110%er [5436]
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Re: I give you "Exhibit A". ******
Jul 25, 2008, 11:26 AM
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I think he's cost us some big games. BC at BC comes to mind.
Calling a 3 yd. pass when it's 3 and 9 happens alot.
Calling a passing play from the 3 yrd line on second down ?? Calling a sweep from the 2 yrd line.
When it's 3rd down at least throw to the marker or call a draw and punt. When it's 1st from the 6 or less give the freakin ball to Davis and let's go kickoff.
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Trainer [38]
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Re: RE: Spence. Why is it everyday you log on someone is
Jul 25, 2008, 11:26 AM
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In the same line of thinking as a couple of previous responses; we have not been as productive against the better teams we have played such as VT, BC, FSU, GT, Auburn, etc. Upper tier programs generally have enough talent on defense to cover every inch of the field from the spot of the ball out ~25-30 yards or so when looking at position match-ups. A good defense will read and wait until the play develops then react accordingly, plays that take longer to develop tend to play into the hands of a more talented defense, unless you have really "fooled them", which is generally not that often. One other negative aspect of unorthodoxed plays is they have a unique signature to them which can be easily read and the better teams are pretty good at scouting this sort of thing.
Personally I am OK with RS, I just wish he would rely more on our talent/personnel match-ups against oposing defenses rather than the "system" and work on quick hitting plays that utilize our speed. I like the overall balance of run -vs- pass as well.
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All-TigerNet [11894]
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Often Spence's critics list specific plays on which they
Jul 25, 2008, 11:26 AM
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disagree with his call....fair enough. I have wondered about a few of them also. But what other OC have we had who always made the call that worked? What other teams have OC's whose calls always work? It's not as if the opponents don't have DC's who are working just as hard to stop us....maybe they deserve a little of the "credit" for plays that don't work. Looking at his whole body of stats, which compare favorably to other OC's, seems fairer to me than keying only on the negatives.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Exactly. Excellent post.***
Jul 25, 2008, 6:53 PM
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null [290]
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Simply because his offense is a gimmick offense, it runs up
Jul 25, 2008, 11:27 AM
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stats on weak teams and is pathetically weak against solid teams.
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All-TigerNet [12092]
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Give me a break. We've struggled against the same teams
Jul 25, 2008, 11:30 AM
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everyone else did. Could it mean (GASP) those teams actually have a good defense?
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MVP [509]
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You mean like those powerhouse defenses at Maryland
Jul 25, 2008, 11:40 AM
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and Kentucky and USC in 2006. Spence still has a lot to prove in my book. And no one is wanting him to prove it this year more than me.
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All-TigerNet [12092]
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I would say our struggles in those games were more personnel
Jul 25, 2008, 11:49 AM
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based than scheme based.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Mascot [5090]
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Legend [15751]
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CU Guru [1730]
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great post
Jul 25, 2008, 12:14 PM
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Clemson statistically has done very well under this coaching staff. Great job to the original poster in pulling all those together.
However, I would like to see these same stats filtered so we could tell how well we've done against only teams that are in a BCS conference.
Just a guess, but I believe that they are going to be not just a little less impressive, but significantly less impressive.
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