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Topic: I lived through all of the protests of the 60s
Replies: 50   Last Post: Jan 12, 2021, 10:18 PM by: Obed®
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I lived through all of the protests of the 60s

[4]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 12:35 PM
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and so I have been a bit conflicted over the past year. Civil rights protests and anti-war protests were important events in our history. They pointed out mistakes and injustices in our system that needed to be addressed. They were mostly peaceful, but there were times when events caused emotions to boil over and allowed violence to swamp reason.

As an old fart now, I have a different perspective than I did then. I abhor the violence and destruction that I feel are counter-productive to the protester's cause. But I have to remember the riots after MLK was assassinated, and Watts, and Chicago, etc.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I DO feel that there is a difference between the violent protests over the summer and what we saw last week. I DO think we have some racial problems in this country that are often magnified in our police forces - often with unacceptably tragic results. And I understand that Antifa feels it necessary to forcefully resist what they see as facists forces gaining a foothold in our country.

But last week, reactionaries attacked the very center of our government by breeching the Capitol during an important democratic certification of the vote. And even the peaceful protesters were there to protest against democracy - against the millions of Americans that have a different vision for America than they do.

I want advocates for better treatment of people of color in our country to win their campaign. I want the content of people's characters to be able to outshine the color of their skin. We have come a long way but we are not there yet. I would like to see them do it more reasonably, but I want them to win. And if we suffer some property damage along the way, I will have to live with that to have a more fair country.

I want fascists to know in no uncertain terms that we will not buy that bullyshitt here in America. I want us to have a tolerant, diverse, multi-ethnic society in which all members are appreciated for their similarities and their differences. I would like to be able to discuss this reasonably and show, through empirical evidence and rational thinking, that America is better for that heterogeneity. But if Antifa has to get into some street fights to send the fascists skulking away, then I will have to live with that in order to have a more equitable and distinctive society.

But here's the thing. I don' want these reactionary forces that we witnessed last week to win. And it is NOT because I disagree with their politics (even though I do). It is because they are anti-democratic. They want to undo the elections that allow for self-governance. Their side did not win a fair election and they want to overturn the results (even the peaceable ones).

And it is because they are anti-reality. I'm sorry, you lost, fair and square. We spent 2 months and 60 court cases giving you a fair chance to prove your claims of election fraud and you failed - miserably. Now you want to continue to deny empirical evidence in the streets. And you want to abandon rational thinking to claim that your vision of America overrides that of the 85 million voters in the majority.

That is NOT a cause that I want to win. And I am certainly not willing to live with the violence to and destruction of our democracy to see it h

Racism (in ALL of its forms) and fascism (in ALL of its forms) are concepts that I would like to see diminished or killed outright. I do NOT say the same for democracy. Do you ??

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Nah. The reason for the anger is that conservatives won't

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 12:49 PM
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play ball by the left's rules. The left loved the riots of the summer, and praised the taking over of entire downtowns, so while we conservatives think the entire thing is a worst nightmare, if this is where you wanted to go at least its a decent show.

The left thought this summer was the moral high ground. When they got a small one in return last week they now want to foam at the mouth, and we're like, "The guy with the horned hat was kinda cool."

That will generate a 2000 word rant.

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Thats why folks stormed the capitol?

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:13 PM
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Because places those people never go had rioters all summer?

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Hold on, I need to check something.....


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:22 PM
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....

What I thought, but needed to check. No, I did not mention the rioters. You meant to respond to someone else.

2021 white level member link

I'll quote here, because your exact words are "Nah. The


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:26 PM
    Reply

reason for the anger is that conservatives won't play ball by the left's rules."

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Thank you.***


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:29 PM
    Reply



2021 white level member link

So those folks who stormed the capitol were happy


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:32 PM
    Reply

insurrectionists.

Got it.

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Re: So those folks who stormed the capitol were happy

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:38 PM
    Reply

The people who were led by police through the double metal side doors didn't seem angry.

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How about the ones that beat the cops with flag poles


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:45 PM
    Reply

and threw fire extinguishers at them?

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I would say they should have...


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:25 PM
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gone around to the side where the cops were more hospitable. I've made my statement about violence so don't accuse me of condoning it because I made a joke.

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Here ya go.


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:14 PM
    Reply

"The left loved the riots of the summer, and praised the taking over of entire downtowns, so while we conservatives think the entire thing is a worst nightmare, if this is where you wanted to go at least its a decent show."

I know. This is one of those moments you're pretending to be dignified and clever but aren't really fooling anyone.

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Say political change was redfish, and you wanted to catch

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:01 PM
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a bunch of big redfish. If you see a group of guys slapping the water with paddles trying to catch redfish, you'd probably think they were idiots, right? But if you saw them limiting out on trophy redfish, you'd probably think about slapping the water with a paddle yourself, no?

It's nothing more than human nature. If one group is allowed to use violence and intimidation to further their political goals, I have no idea why it surprises anyone when another does the same thing. Is it the location everyone is so hung up on or something?

And to the bigger point, the people who excused almost a years worth of riots probably need to cool their outrage jets this go around. Anyone who was outraged by all of it get to ride on a high horse. The problem is, seems like the most vocal shriekers are the same people who defended all previous riots. That's more a statement referring to mainstream media and politicians than anything.

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Re: Nah. The reason for the anger is that conservatives won't

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:20 PM
    Reply

tulsa,

I love it when you tell me what I think.

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You wrote a tome telling us. Which is fine. Tomes are good.


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:31 PM
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So, we know.

2021 white level member link

So, here's actually the adult response.

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:12 PM
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-"The left" is no more of a massive, amorphous entity than is "the right" or "the MSM" or "the Deep State".

-People who were adult, mature liberals/Dems didn't "love" the summer riots. They supported the peaceful protests. The actual riots and destruction were caused by extremists or opportunists. Anyone who celebrated them was an immature child, or an extremist themselves.

-Adult, mature conservatives didn't love what happened on Wednesday. Because what happened on Wednesday wasn't conservative or "the right". It was a group of extremists. Real conservatives understand how terrible it was and the real danger it posed to our nation.

-Adult, mature conservatives didn't say, "The guy with the horned hat is kinda cool." Anyone who saw Wednesday and had that attitude is a child and part of the problem.

-Anyone who feels attacked or somehow needs to be defensive about his "side" after Wednesday doesn't belong to the GOP or the conservative ranks. He belongs to a side that opposes democracy in this country.

HTH

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And here you highlight the double standard many of us keep


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:29 PM
    Reply

referring to:

"-People who were adult, mature liberals/Dems didn't "love" the summer riots. They supported the peaceful protests. The actual riots and destruction were caused by extremists or opportunists. Anyone who celebrated them was an immature child, or an extremist themselves."

"-Adult, mature conservatives didn't love what happened on Wednesday. Because what happened on Wednesday wasn't conservative or "the right". It was a group of extremists. Real conservatives understand how terrible it was and the real danger it posed to our nation."

Look at the above two statements. What's missing there? Ohh, it's the benefit of the doubt given to most of the "peaceful protestors" on one hand, while ascribing nefarious intentions and labels to the other with no benefit of the doubt given to the greater group. Even though I'd say it was probably the same ratio of peaceful protestors to extremists/opportunists on both sides.

What is so baffling to many of us, are the refusal of many to treat both groups the same. Either we've got groups of mostly peaceful protestors with some bad apples mixed in, or the entirety of the groups are bad. The only way you calm tensions is to treat both groups the same.

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I'm happy to add an addendum

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:35 PM
    Reply

As we saw Wednesday, the majority of people demonstrating did NOT raid the Capitol but instead remained peaceful. Again, the work of a group of extremists did that.

Better?

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Yes, and I think it's an important distinction


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:47 PM
    Reply

I personally see the line between Trump supporter/Republican/Conservative being blurred by the general media narrative, which is resulting in a lot of people feeling attacked. Making them feel like they've got to choose a side. And a lot of people do seem to be lumping them into the same group and attacking them.

Treating all people equal is the only way out without much more violence at this point.

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It's a very important distinction


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:54 PM
    Reply

And yes, it would be disingenuous to label all the people who were there Wednesday in the same breath as the extremists who stormed the Capitol. That's just as fallacious as when people labeled all the demonstrators over the summer as rioters. The majority were peaceful; extremists and looters detracted from their message.

I think the Trump supporter/Republican conservative has been blurred by a lot of entities, not just the media, and it's a bad blur. It does a disservice to real conservatives who would never champion Wednesday, and who stuck to traditional conservatism all through the Trump years.

I do disagree that there isn't a side to be taken over Wednesday's events. There's a clear right and wrong, and a clear pro-American and anti-American stance. None of it has to do with liberal/conservative ideology, and it should be a unifying stance among all of us here.

If a group of radical leftist commies had stormed the Capitol, it would have been equally evil.

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I don't know what you mean by the left here...

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:38 PM
    Reply

I had no problem with protest, then or now. But the capital protest is entirely based on lies and half-truths. I know that many of those folks have been led to believe that the election was fraudulent and that is why they are out there protesting but it is objectively untrue. It's like an extension of the boy who cried wolf running into town ONE MORE TIME and saying, "We have to go look for wolves again, we can't ignore all these allegations that wolves are killing the sheep!"

The people who should be held accountable, apart from the folks who actually caused the death and destruction, are the ones who know better but choose to placate and thereby incite the mob.

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Here is the divide.

[3]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:06 PM
    Reply

You guys still can't believe that 50+ million Americans believe the election was rigged via Dominion machines, illegal voters and manufactured ballots slipped in during the shutdowns in five or six, seven major swing states.

I'm not asking you to believe anything other than the fact that millions of Americans, republicans, independents and even up to 20% of democrats believe the election was fraudulent.

Please do not continue to ignore this. I've posted Razzy polls and Axios polls which report these numbers. You can argue with me over whether or not it happened but I insist that you realize millions of Americans believe that it happened.

Some, tens of thousands of those who believe the election was stolen gathered in DC to hear Trump speak. A tiny fraction of them rushed the Capitol Building, they were wrong but they were the extreme minority.

You must not continue to allow your thoughts driven by the falsehood that those rally goers were trying to subvert democracy. They believed they were defending the primary tenant of democracy by gathering to rally and marching to protest.

This should not anger you. This should set you at ease. We are not going to bear arms against the nation we love. We do not want democracy subverted, that's why so many showed up in DC and participated only in a peaceful march.

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Only because it wasn't.


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:16 PM
    Reply

50 states felt they weren't rigged. 60 judges, the attorney general and the senate majority leader didn't either.

I still think its funny that you think all these people were in on the conspiracy.

Because Trump said so.

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No, not because Trump said so.

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:23 PM
    Reply

It was because so many of us actually paid attention to the hearing in those contested states. We saw the witnesses, assessed their credibility and respected their testimonies which were submitted in writing and sworn. We saw the videos of counting houses throwing out 'watchers,' and the Biden wearing counters remaining cheering the ejections.

None of you watch them because you refuse to allow for any possibility that you really didn't get the election you wanted. You're doing exactly what you accuse me of doing.

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So all those folks I mentioned weren't privy to the evidence


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:24 PM
    Reply

YOU saw.

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All those hearings played online. I saw them all.

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:32 PM
    Reply

Some of them were aired on Newsmax and many clips were shown there in primetime.

I can't say they all watched all the hearings any more than you can suppose that none of them watched any of the hearings but took Trump's word for it.

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So they all just dismissed the evidence, and i use that term


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:33 PM
    Reply

loosely, and just randomly disagreed with Trump, because, Trump.

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Re: All those hearings played online. I saw them all.


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:10 PM
    Reply

Lordy. I keep asking you to please stop proffering dog turds while insisting to us there's a diamond inside, and you keep not hearing me. You do understand Newsmax is a complete grift, right?

It's deliberately provocative extreme-right channel with a low credibility rating that has bombed numerous fact checks and run all the way down to a "questionable source" on MBFC. They're about three notches below Fox. Newsmax is also run at a loss...so they can hock stuff like Alzheimer's cures pushed by shady, discredited anti-vaxxer doctors on their own channel.

Fox has some low ethical standards, but Newsmax is so grifty they're literally begging to get blasted by the next AG. They've only been getting away with what they've been getting away with because they were small and the president liked them...well, I would say the political landscape has shifted rather dramatically under the feet in the last week, and it's going to shift a good bit more after the 20th.

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Re: No, not because Trump said so.

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:30 PM
    Reply

And 300 court cases filed by Dems prior to the election to get things the way they wanted.

2021 orange level member link

I'll stupidly take your word on that number


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:35 PM
    Reply

but I'll assume that none of those cases were litigated and approved by state election officials, right?

Were they all in on the big lie too?

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IDK how many but I remember several.


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:41 PM
    Reply

I know that election laws were changed without legislation changing them which is unconstitutional.

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So the judges that allowed the law changes were all in


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:47 PM
    Reply

on the big lie. An no one from the states electoral processes felt strongly enough about that to object to the results, so they were all in on the big lie, too.

I that how it goes?

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Actually...


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:23 PM
    Reply

Abrams sued the SoS and the judge allow them to 'come to an agreement,' to ignore signature requirements and other laws passed by state legislation in GA.

In PA the locals in Philly usurped state legislators' authority and told those in democrat majority districts that they could open mailin envelopes and have issues fixed previous to the legal date designated by law, Nov 3. The lawsuit made the claim that voters in pub districts were disadvantaged due to not being notified that they too could illegally fix ballots. BTW, fixing a ballot is the process by which the poll workers call or otherwise notify the voter that there is a technical issue with their ballots and providing for them to 'fix,' the ballots by visiting the polling location.

Wanna go chapter and verse or are you already over your head in information of which you were previously ignorant due to your head being up your asz when these lawsuits were being discussed?

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-clemsontiger1988-110.jpg link

ugh***


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 10:06 PM
    Reply



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Re: Here is the divide.

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:19 PM
    Reply

88,

I recognize that millions of people continue to believe that there was wide spread election fraud - despite all evidence to the contrary.

Millions of kids still believe in Santa Clause, but America doesn't make political policy based on that belief.

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Re: Here is the divide.

[1]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:28 PM
    Reply

"I recognize that millions of people continue to believe that there was wide spread election fraud.."

I won't argue the results further. Knowing your statement is true I expect you to revise the OP and change retract the slanderous comment that the people at the rally were trying to subvert democracy. How easy we made an ambiguous statement then follow it down a dark hole to a place hidden from the truth.

Wrong? Debatable but not an insurrections. That charge should be beneath you.

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John Wilkes Booth thought he was right, too.

[2]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:37 PM
    Reply

Sorry about your husband, Mrs. Lincoln.

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Re: Here is the divide.


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:24 PM
    Reply

88,

What one THINKS they are doing has no impact on the reality of what they are ACTUALLY doing.

Those protestors sought to overturn the results of a fair and democratic election. They sought to substitute their will for that of the majority - 85 million Americans. That is subversion of democracy.

1988,

I am sorry to break this to you, but the intensity of your sincere beliefs about election fraud have absolutely NO impact on the reality and validity of said election. Any efforts (besides just talking) to supplant one for the other is a subversion of democracy. I guess you are just going to have to come to grips with that.

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I don't think the election was rigged, but I do agree that

[2]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:26 PM
    Reply

the folks that stormed the Capital absolutely believed it was rigged.

So - I agree that (in their minds) they weren't trying to subvert democracy, they were trying to protect it from being subverted.

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Re: I don't think the election was rigged, but I do agree that


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:37 PM
    Reply

I'm not above admitting that some people might have just been angry that Trump lost. I can't say how many and neither can anyone else. I can say there appeared to be some rage at the front of that crowd. For sure, those who entered through the metal side doors didn't seem a bit excited or concerned that the police escorted them into the building.

One video showed a cop leading them as as usher around a hallway. Some chit happened there, I'm not claiming more than that, some shady chit happened.

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Re: I don't think the election was rigged, but I do agree that


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:26 PM
    Reply

I may THINK that I can fly, but the REALITY of gravity (& the ground) disagree.

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The obvious question..


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 2:52 PM
    Reply

Why do so many (I don’t think it’s remotely 50M...but whatever) actually believe that a planned and coordinated fraud, large enough in scope to change the outcome of an election, took place?

I know, I know...there’s so much evidence out there and all we have to do is take a look. We have looked, so have countless judges, election officials, elected officials, etc. The proof just doesn’t exist. I know you say it does, but it doesn’t...it just doesn’t. I know that doesn’t change your mind, and its not intended to. You’ve got your reasons for believing a fantasy and we have reality. Let’s just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

So, barring any actual proof, what would be the simplest explanation for why so many people believe such a fantastic lie? Well, it’s basically just been masterfully cultivated out of thin air...an incantation...a big lie. Trump took advantage of the mistrust many already had in government institutions/processes and slowly, but surely, cultivated that seed over a five year span into the something so unbelievable and fantastic that any objective person scoffs at any notion it could possibly be true. But, there are apparently millions who seem to lack the ability and/or desire to see the truth. I don’t disagree with you on this fact. But where does that leave us as a country? Does it not scare the crap out of you that all it took to destroy our democracy are the words of a narcissistic mad man?

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Let's do some maff.


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 3:55 PM
    Reply

"A new NPR/Ipsos poll released Wednesday found that while 33% of all respondents believe voter fraud helped Biden win the 2020 election, 67% of Republicans said the same. Only 44% of Republicans surveyed said they accept the outcome of the election and 71% said there is a deep state working to undermine President Donald Trump."

I'm supposing that deep state chit was due to the fbi faking documents to prosecute people close to trump so they might be able to get one or some of them to 'rollover.'

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2020-12/topline_npr_misinformation_poll_123020.pdf

Previously rassmussen reported 67% of pubs, 17% of dems and ~40% indies believe there was enough election fraud to change the outcome of the election.

You can do the maffs but Imo, 50 mil is a conservative estimate.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-clemsontiger1988-110.jpg link

Well, let’s just take your numbers at face value


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 4:20 PM
    Reply

How does that not scare the #### out of you? The reality that that many people believe (wrongly) that the fix was in. I mean it’s a reflection of a masterful disinformation campaign by Trump and sympathetic media/politicians...but it surely doesn’t mean any of them are right. You and others who parrot this message might be correct that our Democracy has been destroyed...it just won’t be for the reasons or by the people you think. Ever stopped to wonder if instead of trying to help save democracy, you were on the side actually trying to do just the opposite? That thought ever even remotely occur to you?

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Cliffnotes version ... only liberals are qualified

[4]
Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:17 PM
    Reply

To protest

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Re: Cliffnotes version ... only liberals are qualified


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:22 PM
    Reply

Sorry chem,

I know it gets tough on you when it takes more than one sentence to express a thought.

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Who was said this? Ever?


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 1:23 PM
    Reply

I realize this is an overused attempt to redirect from the real facts that a mob stormed the capitol, 5 people died, and the attempt to stall the election process was thwarted.

But who anywhere has said that only liberals can protest?

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Re: I lived through all of the protests of the 60s


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 3:30 PM
    Reply

If their was not one single fraudulent vote and their were many, the election was not conducted in a constitutional manner. Only state legislators are allowed to change election laws. In many of the battleground states, laws were altered to help Biden by democrats other than the state legislators. Look it up in the constitution. The election was anything but free and fair. The Republicans are not trying to overturn a free and fair election. History will prove that the election was fraudulent and it was indeed the Democrats that overturned it by stopping the vote count, until they could manufacture enough "votes" for Biden to win. The election was overturned by the Democrats.

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Re: I lived through all of the protests of the 60s


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 4:07 PM
    Reply

History will show no such d$mn fool thing.

Almost all of the lawsuits involved voter suppression issues - availability and number of polling places (Pubs have a way of closing polling places in urban areas at the last second without notice and making blacks especially wait in long, long, LONG lines, it's an old and particularly despicable trick,) ease and access to early voting to ease those lines (which again affect urban areas far more heavily), and ease of mail-in voting for those with COVID concerns.

All of those lawsuits went through the legal process, were ruled upon by judges, wrangled over, and often appealed. The Supreme Court - which is Republican by a 6-3 margin - did not bring the overwhelming majority of those up for review because the Court felt they'd been fairly settled.

It does not remotely appear anyone "manufactured" anything - this was overwhelmingly proven by easily verifiable paper ballots, of which multiple reviews showed no evidence of fraud at any scale and pnly turned up one - repeat (1)! - proven case of deliberate fraud. And it was a Republican. Actually the only proven case of larger-scale fraud also involved a Republican, in a House Representative race back in 2018 that had to be re-run when a GOP operative was found to be filling in other peoples' ballots.

What history will show is that Trump blatantly and flagrantly lied...and his followers bought it and started an insurrection over that lie.

Get out of your OAN/Newsmax bubble and you'll see everybody else across literally the entire world shares that view. Trump's been denounced by virtually world leader out there in the last couple days in both the Democratic and authoritarian worlds...which is quite a rare feat.

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Re: I lived through all of the protests of the 60s


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 4:01 PM
    Reply

Pathetic rationale. Those days, weeks, months of riots, 100s of millions in damage, killing of protestors by their own, and calls for cops to be killed (which were carried out) were acceptable. But, the Capital event which, has not been proven to have been *started* by Trump supporters, is unacceptable.

Can any liberal show proof the riots were not instigated/started by a leftist? No, then it remains a possibility the entire affair was planned and ignited by the left. Obviously, plenty of Trump supporters got into it after crowd-think took over. But, from where did the initial spark come?

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Re: I lived through all of the protests of the 60s


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 4:41 PM
    Reply

NC,

You are the one making the claim - that some other group was responsible for starting the seditious riots last week. Therefore it is up to you to provide evidence to support your claim. (see attached)

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That's a well thought-out post, but ultimately you're


Posted: Jan 12, 2021, 10:17 PM
    Reply

(quite honestly, which I appreciate) admitting that you're ok with law-breaking and outright violence in the name of causes you believe in. It may not have hit you when you wrote it, but in that sense, you are dead-even morally with the Capitol protesters.

Violence and anarchy in the name of any cause is still violence and anarchy, and if we can't admit that there are better ways to do it here in 2021, we're just situationally cherry-picking our ethics and acceptable societal norms.

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