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Topic: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...
Replies: 64   Last Post: Feb 19, 2019, 3:25 PM by: cufan®
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Replies: 64  

REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...

emoji_events [10]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 9:36 PM
 

First off I know I don’t post much but enjoy getting on for a good laugh and to see what’s goin on with my Tigers but someone help me please understand the thought process behind some of the basketball “fans”. There’s always an excuse... the fans don’t support the team, it’s facilities, we don’t have a tradition in basketball , etc. I don’t buy any of that BS and it’s getting old. Fans do support this team but I think a lot of fans are sick of the same old same ol for 8+ years... I was a student during the OP days and that place was rockin and you had to camp out sometimes or know someone to get in the lower level student section, and if I’m not mistaken LJC was ranked in the top 5 a few years in a row as one of the toughest and loudest places to play so don’t give me that... LJ was loud and it was exciting. And I was too young to remember the Barnes days but he had some good years and OP did as well, **** we almost won the ACC tourney and he had some really good players that came through, I just think his system may have worn the team down by the time tourney time came, not to mention the bad break with TO getting thrown out for an elbow that really hurt us one year.

I just feel like some make it out to be we have no tradition and have never had a string of winning seasons or something. Yea we aren’t Duke or UNC but i don’t think any rational CU fan expects that.... I do think we should be in the tourney about every year with an occasional miss and every few years make it to a sweet 16.

I am not a guy after a loss that screams fire such and such, I will give a guy time and I feel like BB has had plenty of time to get it right and just think it’s time for a change... this is by far his most talented team with 4/5 returning starters from a S16 team and we aren’t even gonna make the Dance.

I’m just sick of seeing comments like did B.B. miss the free throws, or did he throw the ball away or foul a three point shooter? No but he is the head coach and he RESPONSIBLE for having his team prepared for those situations , you don’t see the football team making those same dumb plays over and over do you? And last time I checked dabo wasn’t out there throwing passes and making tackles either but he has his team prepared and they show an undeniable progression from year to year with guys... I’m just saying you think Dabo would still be around if he made two bowl games in 8+ years, I don’t think so. Sorry for long rant just don’t understand the thought process and imo that’s the problem , don’t blame fans bc they don’t show up in droves to watch mediocrity and the same errors late in games over and over! I still love my Tigers and hope we win out and it changes and we have a crazy turnaround but realistically I think the Miami loss did this team in!

Go Tigers !


Message was edited by: OneClemson2010


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I thought you wanted to have a rational discussion about Clemson basketball

[3]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 9:59 PM
 

until you brought up Clemson football. Talk about apples and oranges!

Clemson football has been THE priority at Clemson for most of our school’s history. Basketball has mostly been an afterthought. That is true with the administration and the fans.

Two bowl games in 8 years in football is NOT the same as two NCAA Tournament appearances in 8 years in basketball. Not even close.

Once you’re ready to not bring up football, Clemson’s pride and joy, in a
basketball discussion, I’m happy to chat.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: I thought you wanted to have a rational discussion about Clemson basketball

[2]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:11 PM
 

Well i can’t speak for the administration so i won’t even pretend to act like I know it all bc I def do not on that aspect... i will disagree about the fan part though bc like I said LJC was an amazing atmosphere and rockin during the OP years and we had some awesome wins during that time. It can be done here and when i say that i mean for Clemson fans, I really don’t think any of us expect final four runs every year lol just a solid program that consistently makes the tourney and an occasional year like last year that was fun as HE!! To me.

And I guess you need to emphasize what you mean on the football and basketball comment bc going .500 in basketball in conference which shouldn’t be too difficult and a handful of easy cupcake games to get you to 19-20 wins is equivalent to me in going 6-6 7-5 in football and making a low end bowl, I mean if you’re talking facilities I agree with you we spend a ton more on football but that’s also the money maker.

I’m def not disagreeing comparing the two is not right I was just pointing out that we wouldn’t put up with mediocrity for so long on the football field so why should we on the court is my main argument... and going .500 in either sport is mediocrity no matter how you look at it.

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Winning 20 games in basketball is way harder than winning 6

[1]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:22 PM
 

or 7 in football. Given that a college basketball season has roughly 30 games, winning 15 or 16 is equivalent to winning 6-7 football games (and thus being bowl eligible).

Brad is 164-123 at Clemson, a .571 winning percentage. That is equivalent to 6-7 wins a season. If this were football, we would be going to a bowl every year on average under Brownell. I don't think that's so horrible considering the fact that our basketball history is way worse than that.

I certainly think we are capable of more, which is why I believe we need to give Brownell more resources. If you look back at our history, other than a few very brief runs of "success" (making the NCAA Tournament), we haven't ever consistently recruited well or had sustained basketball success. That leads me to believe that we aren't dealing with a coaching issue as much as we are an issue of subpar support for basketball.

Either we care, or we don't. But let's stop pretending we care, and wanting to fire coaches, but not wanting to see real support thrown behind our basketball program.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: Winning 20 games in basketball is way harder than winning 6

[3]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:31 PM
 

I don’t know maybe I’m wrong on that but I don’t agree, I think we usually play 10 “easily” winnable games if not more before we even start conference play and I just don’t think it’s too much to ask to go .500 in league play , that’s not that hard... and in basketball you can have one guy take over a game and put the team on his shoulders and get you through , but whatever that’s not the point I was making it had more to do with mediocre seasons regardless of the records and like i said i was there when support was awesome and basketball games were awesome we never missed them unless we had to... so I will continue to disagree there that’s like saying we should have had the reeves complex for Tommy and he would have won... it was earned through some big wins and you could see things are changing and we wanted to get on top of it which we did .

Obviously football is king here like it is at 95% of all schools in the south east it’s just how it is and will be and I will admit I’d rather win like we are in football than basketball if I had to choose but why should we have to, we can be a tourney team every year and that’s not asking much... I do think the LJ upgrades were good but i was one that was confused and wondered why we kept dumping money in that place instead of tearing it down and building something special if you want to bring in some big recruits.

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What "resources and support" do you propose?

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 11:23 PM
 

AB has come in and immediately turned around the women's team that hasn't had a winning season in the last 14 years. Did she get some resources and facilities that Brad didn't get?

A quick glance at our past basketball seasons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Clemson_Tigers_men%27s_basketball_seasons

Brad is somewhere between a Larry Shyatt and Cliff Ellis in terms of yearly records/results. In contrast, Barnes and Purnell were able to achieve reasonable success in relatively short periods of time at this "football school." Winning seasons and a few NCAA appearances. These were good coaches that recruited solid players and new how to coach them to victories. Yes, both ultimately moved on to what they thought were greener pastures for them, but the point is it is possible to have winning basketball here without necessarily throwing a lot more money and/or facilities at it. Also, success does bring attendance and financial support. It is fairly easy to see within a period of time if a coach is having a successful impact or not, for those who are willing to look. I think with a little effort we could find an up-and-coming coach that wants to take Clemson to the next level. I don't feel the need to stick with a guy just because he's a safe bet for solid mediocrity.

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Re: I thought you wanted to have a rational discussion about Clemson basketball


Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:15 PM
 

There's not really anything to discuss. We don't have the bagmen for basketball to sign high school talent, and Brownell's system doesn't develop players. Rinse and repeat.

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Re: I thought you wanted to have a rational discussion about Clemson basketball

[3]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:22 PM
 

Brownells system, think that is part of the issue also bc I think he recruits defense first and don’t get me wrong if we went 23-8 or whatever winning games 50-45 every night I’d be happy but you WILL run into teams shooting it well, like everybody complains about players having career days against us... why can’t we recruit kids that can shoot and if you that good of an “X and O guy” you can teach defense bc defense is mostly effort. Just look at all the small teams HE!! Even Wofford and Furman have one or two kids that can shoot and you know they are a threat any time beyond the arc, your telling me these kids would rather go to fgcc or Furman or Belmont or whatever over Clemson , just don’t get it and that’s recruiting which is coaches responsibility

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Re: I thought you wanted to have a rational discussion about Clemson basketball

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 10:59 PM
 

I think we have 4 seniors starting for this team and we’re a pre-season Top 20 team. This is what is so frustrating. We were supposed to have another good season after what was a good season last year with all these guys coming back and we have definitely under-achieved this season in my opinion. We have loss at least 3 games which we should have won whether we blame the coaches or players consisting of mostly seasoned seniors out there. And now we have to pretty much start over with all new players starting next season. So I guess the excuse next season will be we loss because we are a young team. Same ole same ole.....Go Tigers!!!!!

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Brownell doesn't develop players?

[1]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:25 PM
 

I would argue that he is quite good at that. Jerai Grant, Sidy Djitte, Jaron Blossomgame, Gabe DeVoe, the list goes on and on of players who were not highly touted recruits who improved considerably, helped our team a lot, and are now playing professional basketball somewhere.

Brad's issue is not being able to consistently recruit the high 4 star and 5 star players - something no Clemson basketball coach has ever been able to do. I don't think that makes him a bad recruiter, but I do think it suggests that Clemson needs to support basketball better so that he has a legitimate chance of landing those players.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


I appreciate your passion for this team and coach

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Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 8:36 AM
 

We may not see eye to eye on the basketball team but your arguments are valid and well expressed.

But I keep hearing the reasons we struggle from multiple posters here and I can’t help but look 4 hours north of here to what Va Tech has done with their program despite having every drawback that Clemson has and then some. GIven that example, I don’t think it’s impossible to achieve that level of success here with the right person at the helm.

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Re: I appreciate your passion for this team and coach

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 9:35 AM
 

Exactly.....no matter what sport you are talking about the most important piece of the puzzle is the head coach if you want that program to be successful......Go Tigers!!!!

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I don’t disagree that another coach could have that effect here.


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 10:09 AM
 

But I also think chances are very good that another coach would be worse than Brownell. I don’t have much confidence that Clemson will go after that great coach, hire him, support him, and keep him.

Based on our history, we would go after a “young up and comer” who has been successful at a mid-major school, and hope that he can be successful in major college basketball.

Virginia Tech didn’t do that with Buzz. Instead, they got a proven winner at the major college level. If Clemson is serious enough about basketball to do that, great! But we better be prepared to support basketball like we never have before.

If we aren’t prepared to do that, I’d rather keep Brad. We know that he represents Clemson well, runs a clean program, graduates players, and might get us where we want to be - and would likely stay here rather than leaving to go elsewhere.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: I don’t disagree that another coach could have that effect here.


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 12:48 PM
 

Even with our lack of tradition, we've only had one coach in the last 30 years that was worse than Brownell....Larry Shyatt. I wouldn't let FOMO be a guiding principle when it comes to discussion of moving on from Brownell at some point.

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Clemson has historically had major issues administratively


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 1:24 PM
 

when it comes to basketball, going back to when Frank Howard was our AD. Brad found that out when he arrived. He and Radakovich have done a lot to improve that, but we still aren't where we need to be if we want to be a great basketball program.

It's easy to point to the success Barnes and Purnell had at Clemson as examples of prior coaches overcoming the issues, but their success was limited to several seasons because they weren't able to consistently recruit well and both saw some poor seasons on the horizon as a result.

I'm tired of both being viewed as these amazing coaches who won at Clemson, when in reality, they had their limitations and both abandoned Clemson. They had to do what they thought was best for them, but let's use those examples - as well as Brad's struggles - to evaluate why we have never hired a basketball coach who has been highly successful and remained here.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: Clemson has historically had major issues administratively


Posted: Feb 18, 2019, 2:16 AM
 

You're clearly "All In" for Brownell which is your right, but I'm honestly confused as to how anyone could be that emotionally attached to him after nearly a decade. You can try to deride previous coaches all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that in the last 30+ years of Clemson basketball that we've only had one demonstrably worse coach in Shyatt. I'm not suggesting that any of our other coaches were heads and shoulders above Brownell either, but I'm saying that I don't buy the notion that we're in serious jeopardy of taking two steps back in coaching acumen if we part ways with Brownell. He's not better or worse than any of the other coaches who have worked here in modern times sans Shyatt. I think his ridiculous buyout precludes us from making any moves anyway in the short term, so I would suspect he'll have plenty of additional time to prove your faith in him is well spent. I am honestly not passionately for or against him but obviously would love to see our program elevate to a more consistent level. I was a student during the Barnes era, and it was an awesome time to be a part of what was frequently a crazy Littlejohn environment.

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I don’t disagree that we must recruit better and win more.

[1]
Posted: Feb 18, 2019, 8:59 PM
 

What I’ve seen from Brownell, he is a very good coach who gets a lot out of his players. They love him and play their butts off for him. That tells me a lot.

While many here are quick to blame Brad for where we are, I view it differently. I blame our administration for not providing the funding, resources, and tools our basketball program needs to recruit better and win more.

I see enough really good things in Brownell that I’d like to see us really support basketball well, then see what he can do. Otherwise, we will continue the revolving door of basketball coaches, hoping that the next one will be successful, and if so, that he will want to stay.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Did he develop the seniors on this team...

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 6:27 PM
 

who went to the sweet sixteen last year? If so, then why have we only beaten exactly one team with a pulse this season?

Look man, I’ve been a fan of Clemson basketball since I was a kid. I went to Bill Foster’s basketball camp. When I was a student I never missed a game. I even came back to campus during Christmas break to go to games against the podunk pre-ACC schedule. I have the gold ring with onyx on my hand, so don’t give me crap about being a bad fan because I call it like I see it with Brownell.

Can we have a solid, competitive basketball program at Clemson? YES. Should the AD support basketball more? YES. Should we pony up more cash to get a coach capable of building a consistently competitive program at this level? YES!!! Until we do, and as long as we keep extending our contract with mediocrity, that’s EXACTLY what we will get.

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Re: I thought you wanted to have a rational discussion about Clemson basketball

[2]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:22 PM
 

Clemson fans can show up if they are excited about something.

Fans and alumni like me will show up no matter what, but let's be honest, many fans get turned off when they keep seeing the same sh*t and the same losing results.

Today's game was another example of it. We didn't start attacking the basket until late in the game and had to come back. We waste time doing curls and throwing the ball side-to-side instead of attacking it and then rush the shots.

I heard the excuses of "it's difficult to recruit" used on Clemson football during the lean years of the '90s, but the excuses sure went away when we got the right person leading the way.

The "we have no tradition" excuse is also lame since every program had to start somewhere, even the so-called blue bloods.

I realize we're a "football school", but it's been long enough that Clemson fans had to endure this kind of mediocrity in basketball. For several years, our administration was content with having a losing program in women's basketball and even renewed that coach's contract (I don't know if that wasn't a political correctness move) and hoping the fans don't notice because the football program is doing well. Well, some of us actually did notice. Now we have Coach Amanda Butler who seems to have made an impact despite not yet having the championship talent to do it.

I can only hope that our men's basketball program can make that improvement because there are some (maybe more than some want to admit) of us who care about basketball as well.

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Clemson football started recruiting better when Clemson's AD

[1]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:29 PM
 

decided to provide top level facilities.

I don't think Tommy Bowden is a great coach, but if he had been given the facilities he asked for, he might still be our coach. Facilities matter a ton. Sure, having the right coaches who are good recruiters, and who develop talent, are key, but if you don't have great facilities, you have no chance to consistently recruit top talent.

Dabo is a great salesman, but we wouldn't be signing top 10 classes if our AD hadn't agreed to giving Dabo the best facilities in college football. We also wouldn't have won any national championships if Dabo hadn't been given a huge budget to get the assistant coaches he wanted.

Brad had to scratch and claw for the facility upgrades, as well as for slight raises for his assistants. Our AD has a long way to go before Brad is playing on an even playing field when it comes to most of the teams we recruit against. And let's not forget that even with all that, he would still be fighting an uphill battle when it comes to our basketball history and the perception that we only care about football at Clemson. Yet some of you act like all we need is a slick salesman to convince top recruits to come to Clemson. LOL.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


You need to hear the story of CJ Spiller...

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 9:50 AM
 

including after his Senior year when he had to do his Pro-Day drills in the pouring rain because there was no indoor facility.

By that time, Dabo was head coach and they were making something out of what they had.

Oh and when they first opened the doors to the new football ops center, there was a shiny new National Championship trophy there to decorate the front lobby. They didn’t sit around waiting until they had a fancy facility.

Quit acting like the current football program was born with a silver spoon in their mouth. It’s just not true.

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Great, we signed CJ Spiller...


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 10:16 AM
 

How many ACC Championships did CJ win at Clemson?

How many BCS bowls did CJ play in?

The WEZ was started in 2004 and plans for the indoor complex were in the works not too long after that. That showed a commitment by the AD to football, and helped recruiting as a result.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: Clemson football started recruiting better when Clemson's AD

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 1:00 PM
 

I never heard a player say it is the facilities....Duke. It’s always the coach...Always!

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Duke has outstanding facilities.


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 1:27 PM
 

It's laughable to keep reading how bad Duke's facilities are. Cameron indoor is college basketball's version of the Boston Garden - historic, intimidating, and one of those "bucket list" arenas. Although the fan portion is old, the player areas are not. Plus, it sells out every game and is loud.

Duke's practice facilities, workout areas, recruiting areas, etc. are great. That, along with getting to play for Coach K and have a chance to play in the NBA in the future, are reasons why Duke recruits well.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Wrong again...


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 2:09 PM
 

I toured all of Duke’s facilities in the early 90s when they were starting to win national championships (and had been going to Final 4s for a while), and everything about them was dumpy at the time.

They have improved since - yes - but that was many years after winning national championships.

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You tell me I'm "wrong" yet you use an example


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 2:11 PM
 

from the early 90s when facilities weren't even a thing yet?

Ha ha, okay.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Did you decide when facilities were a thing?


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 2:28 PM
 

What year?

And by the way, I’ve liked Brad a lot since he got to Clemson and I still like him. Just cannot stand the constant lame excuses.

Blaming admin, facilites, and fans is not gonna get it done. If there are things to overcome...then find a way to overcome them...especially when you get paid $2.5 Million/year.

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A $2.5 million salary is middle of the pack in the ACC.

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 2:45 PM
 

Please stop making it sound like Brad is one of the highest paid coaches who is underachieving.

Call them excuses all you like, but the reality is that our basketball coach is at a significant disadvantage in the ACC when most of the other schools care about basketball more than we do.

When your competition tends to have better facilities, a better tradition, and better fan support, good luck winning more than they do.

As I've stated before, the new arena is great and was much needed - but our fans need to stop acting like we now have the best basketball facilities in the country and should be collecting blue chip recruits right and left. The new Littlejohn helps - as evidenced by our 2019 class being a top 35 class, and the fact that some 5 star recruits have or had us in their top few schools before signing elsewhere. But I believe our facilities should be even better to overcome the aforementioned disadvantages we have relative to others.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Do you have a sketch of this magic facility he needs before he can win?


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 3:39 PM
 

I’d love to see it.

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I'm not saying it's all about facilities.


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 3:45 PM
 

It is about a combination of facilities, coaching staff, support staff, and fan support - and obviously good coaching.

Clemson needs to be really good at the above to overcome our poor basketball history, as well as the perception that we are a football school that doesn't care about basketball.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


So...basically we don’t have anything?


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 3:51 PM
 

Well...####!

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Re: I'm not saying it's all about facilities.

[2]
Posted: Feb 18, 2019, 8:44 PM
 

Preach. Appreciate your viewpoint on this Judge. Every post I make on this topic gets TD’d. Pitiful to support the real issues that will help make our BB program what we all want. Easy enough to blame the coach when things don’t go well, but much more impactful to take a hard look at the program and evaluate what it is that it missing. Maybe it’s simply the culture.

I remember my first game as a young adult watching big O square with Tim Duncan. I knew right then as a highschool senior that even though Clemson lost that game that I didn’t want to go anywhere else...

That’s what it’s about... That’s what I want for my kids. That feeling of WOW of our basketball program. We are spoiled with the success of our FB program for which I am grateful, but every time I see a post about firing CBB, I have to shake my head and can’t help but feel like we are, yet again, focused on the wrong thing.

Go Tigers.

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M3

Re: I'm not saying it's all about facilities.


Posted: Feb 18, 2019, 10:49 PM
 

Let’s just give up. We can never compete as we will never have the tradition needed to compete with traditional basketball powers of Va Tech, FSU, Ga Tech, Miami, BC, Pittsburgh, Wake, Sigh.

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I don't really understand this line of thinking


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 12:09 AM
 

Basketball is one of the simplest, least resource and facilities-required sports there is. It's nothing like football or even baseball for that matter. A decent coach that can recruit just a few impact players could make a huge difference and turn a program around and maybe even start a tradition. A guy like Billy Donovan who came from brief success at Marshall and then had huge success in 19 seasons at Florida. Those coaches do exist.

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Recruiting well requires a lot more than that.


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 2:03 PM
 

Sure, you technically just need a gym and two hoops, but top recruits want all of the bells and whistles - which many of our competitors have.

Football doesn't require all of the facilities we've built over the past 10 years, but as we've seen, it surely helps with recruiting and running a top program. In fact, it's essential.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


What specifically though would you like to see?


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 2:48 PM
 

You seem to follow basketball a lot more closely than I do. What would it take? IMO the fan problem isn't going to resolve itself until the program gives them a reason to. Just being realistic, people don't really care to watch a blowout of the Charleston Southern's of the world or getting blown out by the UVA's and Duke's. From what I can see, Brownell's 6 yr, $15 mil contract extension after having one decent season last year puts him in the same pay range as Leonard Hamilton at FSU, who has had considerable more success over his 17 some odd seasons there. So what else do we need here at CU to at least make us as competitive as an FSU or better?

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M3

Re: I don't really understand this line of thinking


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 3:17 PM
 

Exactly! i guess some didnt catch my sarcasm. (
Not a good trait.)

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Or, we could actually support basketball well for once


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 2:00 PM
 

and see how we do.

Or we can keep blaming our coach, since that's the easy thing to do.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: I thought you wanted to have a rational discussion about Clemson basketball

[1]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:40 PM
 

I’m right there with you I love basketball, baseball was my first true love but had more fun playing basketball so I watch every single game no matter what... but me not being able to spend the money or time when other stuff is going on on a tues night and driving 3 hours doesn’t mean fans don’t support the team... trust me when i lived up there a couple years after graduating i rarely missed a basketball or baseball game it’s just hard when your further away. But at the same time i agree that fan support in the area seems to be poor, i know there are plenty of Clemson fans in the Anderson , even Greenville area that have no excuse for that place not being 3/4 on the weekday games and should always be full on the weekends, def one of things i miss most about living up there was being able to go to other sporting events.

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:04 PM
 

Duke wasn’t Duke before Coach K either.
Get a good coach and it will all happen. Then keep him. That’s where the fans and admin come in, but step one is get a good coach.
I guess we need facilities as elite as Cameron Indoor to complete though. /sarcasm



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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:14 PM
 

Exactly and honestly i wasn’t around for the 80s so in my lifetime we had been nothing but mediocrity in football with a few big wins here and there until dabo , Cameron is just the history and game day atmosphere but yea it’s nothing special... and I won’t get into the coach K and USA team argument but I also think that is complete BS

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Yep. Gotta have 9,000 seating capacity and old wooden bleachers. ??***


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 10:01 AM
 



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I think times have changed a bit though. Keeping a really


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 3:32 PM
 

successful young coach is more difficult now. Those guys just job hop their way up now instead of sticking it out and building a program until it reaches the top. 30 years ago Brad Stevens may have stayed at Butler and built them into a Duke.

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:08 PM
 

Great post!!!

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:43 PM
 

Brad Brownell is starting to feel like the Tommy Bowden of basketball.

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:51 PM
 

Starting?

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This comparison is ridiculous.

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 1:29 PM
 

Tommy Bowden coached a program with a national championship and multiple ACC championships in its past, in a region of the country known for its college football, with rabid fan support, and in a conference that is pretty easy to improve in.

Brad Brownell coaches a basketball program with no national titles and no final four appearances in its history, in a region of the country not known for college basketball, with lackluster fan support, and in the most competitive conference in college basketball.

Please just stop with this illogical comparison.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Yes Clemson basketball is more comparable to a lower


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 3:28 PM
 

tier SEC football job - except even most of those have pretty rabid fan support. Maybe Missouri - except if Missouri were in the SEC West instead of the East.

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 10:44 PM
 

Funny thing about all that excitement around OP when he was coach. People were calling for him to be fired his last few years because he could not win a tournament game. Now people are calling for BB to be fired.
So tell me the name of the coach you CAN hire at Clemson to replace BB. I have asked this before and did not get a name you CAN hire.

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 16, 2019, 11:06 PM
 

You have those ignorant ppl every where including Clemson , 90% of Clemson fans would have been happy to keep OP, yea we didn’t win a tourney game but look at the matchups we had I think one year it was Xavier , then Michigan which won the title the next year, and one game out best shooter gets ejected on a questionable call that killed us... ppl were complaining and saying dabo would never work out too ... you can’t make everyone happy and I don’t know who we would hire but I’m also not getting paid to make that decision Drad is, but I do know there is a guy that is doing pretty dang well at LSU that we let slip away and shocka also

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 10:16 AM
 

Brownell isn't a stupid guy, and his results don't put him in the echelon of coaches that get offered better jobs. But he makes a very nice living coaching at Clemson. Probably much better than he ever dreamed. And he has figured out the key to coaching at Clemson basketball, and more importantly, keeping that seven figure salary. Just look no further than the Cliff Ellis prototype. It's fine to be mediocre, or even worse, for a few years, but have a decent team a couple times a decade, and folks are happy. And even less pressure when football is doing as well as it is. And next year is not going to be anything to write home about. He loses too many key contributors and experience. Next year will be another "we're young and have to rebuild" stage. He doesnt recruit the type of players that immediately fill the shoes of experienced seniors. I have always equated Clemson basketball to football at UNC. The other sport is the one that gets all the focus from the fan base and a high level of success just isn't as demanded.
As far as OP, he did a smart thing to get out when he did. Fans being fans, usually want one more win than last year. And he had some good teams, but then they kept flaming out when the NCAA came around. Many wondered if his style of play just wore their legs out to the point that they had nothing left at the end of the season. Maybe they were right. But OP was usually consistently good. But he heard the wolves starting to howl. And OP didn't have the luxury during his era of the football team hitting on all cylinders and everyone being happy, no matter the outcome in other sports.
But Brownell got his eyes opened last year. After previous years of underwhelming performance, and the program not being as good as what he inherited, he had a team that came together at the right time. Got about the best draw he could have dreamed of in the NCAA. That caused Dan to roll out a big new contract for one year under his direction that isn't the norm. And every four years or so, whether he has a team that just meshes, or the league is just down a little bit, he can replay this scenario for a long time and be a very wealthy man. Brad's biggest fear is that one of these days NC State, Wake, Ga Tech, will get their acts together and be something close to the powers they used to be. Then he might have a problem.

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Gonna C&P my other post over here

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 1:48 PM
 

FWIW i was working on a big post the other day about Brownell vs what we should actually expect from Clemson basketball from looking at 40+ years of our history (Foster era through to today). I decided not to post it because it was too long and involved a lot of numbers - things that aren't typically received well here, but i will post a synopsis and my conclusions (which is still going to be pretty long, sorry).

I looked at how Brad stacked up with our previous 5 coaches in 4 areas - overall winning %, ACC winning %, NCAA appearances, and talent acquisition.

Brad was fairly average in overall winning % but lagged behind our more successful coaches (Purnell, Barnes, and Ellis) by several % points. I did find it interesting that all 3 of those guys were right around 61% during their Clemson tenures (Brad is at 57ish) and no Clemson coach has ever won a higher %. That does kind of suggest a theoretical ceiling for what we can expect at Clemson.

Brad was pretty significantly ahead of everyone in ACC winning %. I think a pretty strong argument can be made that expansion has watered down the ACC a bit and made it easier to win conference games in 2019 than 1992, but he was still substantially ahead of most of our coaches and even outpaced Purnell who coached in a similar era of ACC basketball. In fact, Purnell coached during some of the weakest years for ACC basketball that i can remember.

Brad was maybe slightly below average in NCAA appearances, but he did trail Barnes and Purnell by a substantial margin. Barnes made the tournament in 3/4 years including his final 3 and likely would've made it 4 in a row if he had stayed. Ditto for Purnell who made the tourney 3/7 years including his final 3 and likely would've made it 4 in a row. The success of Barnes and Purnell proves that more is possible at Clemson in terms of making the tournament.

Talent acquisition was really the most difficult thing to assess and it was difficult to draw conclusions. Recruiting rankings only date back to around 2002ish and looking at NBA draft picks only gives an idea of how many star players coaches were recruiting and doesn't accurately gauge the talent level of the entire roster. I did find that Foster and Ellis produced far more draft picks than our more reason coaches and also numerous high draft picks (top 20ish), the likes of which we haven't seen since. When compared to Barnes, Shyatt, and Purnell, Brad was fairly average at producing draft picks, but just from watching the teams during those eras i think Brad's overall talent level has been closer to Shyatt's than Purnell or Barnes.

Overall conclusions:

1) Brad has really cost himself NCAA tournament bids by struggling early in the year in non-conference games. That shouldn't come as any surprise to people that follow Clemson basketball, but Brad has two teams in particular, 2014 and 2016 that both finished 10-8 in the ACC and both really should have made the tournament but those teams lost 5 and 6 non-conference games, respectively, and many of those losses were to bad teams. With his success in the conference it is a little puzzling as to why his teams struggle to consistently beat bad competition in the first two months of the season. How much differently would we think of Brad right now if he had made 4/8 NCAA tournaments. Quite a lot i think.

2) I think it is fair to expect more out of recruiting. Bad facilities or not, Brad is the 2nd worst recruiter we've had out of the last 6 coaches and his talent level, while higher than Shyatt's, trails the other 4 coaches pretty significantly IMO. The poor facilities excuse has some merit, but most of these other coaches dealt with similar issues while at Clemson and had more success.

3) While it is fair to expect a little more out of Clemson basketball, Brad really hasn't been bad in an historical context. He's consistently competitive in the ACC and runs a very clean program. As long as he's at Clemson we aren't likely to be an ACC doormat. If we fire Brad it's probably going to be a 50/50 proposition as to whether the next coach will be better or worse. And if that coach is better will he stay? Like it or not, Clemson basketball isn't a destination program for coaches. If we bring in a young up-and-comer and he does well, it's fairly likely he does something like leave after 4 years to take the Texas job. While the Purnell situations was admittedly bizarre, we do have to acknowledge that 2 of the most successful coaches in Clemson history left the school at the height of their success to take other jobs. If we find another successful coach can we keep him?

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Great post, thank you for all of your research.

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 2:03 PM
 

It is interesting to compare eras, although as you stated, it is not an apples-to-apples comparison since the college basketball landscape has changed a lot over the past 40 years.

Our non-conference slate is much tougher now than it was under Ellis, Barnes, and Purenll. Those coaches would frequently benefit from horrible non-conference schedules. Brownell has really emphasized playing better non-conference opponents, which is a good strategy that has likely backfired a bit in hindsight. It hurts his overall winning percentage, and has possibly kept us out of at least one NCAA Tournament if not two. Certainly, not winning some of the tougher games, or slipping up and losing a game we shouldn't, has played a role in that as well.

I agree that we need to recruit better. The new facilities seem to be helping some. I am encouraged that Brad's best class is the 2019 class, ranked #34 overall. I believe it will prove to be better than that. I am most excited about top 100 recruit and 4-star Al-Amir Dawes, who will bring toughness and leadership to the backcourt. Alex Hemenway is a 3 star recruit who has not gotten much fanfare on a national level, but is one of those smart Indiana guys who can shoot the lights out. If he can adjust to the speed of ACC basketball, he will be the long distance threat we have needed for a while now.

I believe people would be less down about our recruiting if we hadn't had some very public recruiting misses lately. It's easy to get down on narrowly missing Zion Williamson and Josiah James, but the silver lining is that we were in the final group for some of the nation's top recruits. I don't recall that happening under any recent coaches we've had. Hopefully we will sign one of those types soon, and that it will have a similar effect to the C.J. Spiller signing in football.

Of course, now we are dealing with transfers being a big thing in college basketball, as well as the one-and-dones. These are challenges Brad must navigate, which none of his predecessors had to.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Like you, I am also in favor of giving Brad more time. I

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 2:25 PM
 

agree that the current recruiting trend is positive and i think he really was hampered by the facilities situation for awhile. In particular, having to play an entire season in Greenville was likely pretty detrimental to any recruiting efforts for a couple of cycles. Things seem to be trending in a positive direction right now, but this really is put up or shut up time now as things are in place for him to succeed.

The things that i find the most encouraging about Brad though are:

1) I think his ceiling is pretty high if he does actually improve the talent level. Overall he's out-performed the talent level in the program pretty consistently.

2) I think he's likely to stay at Clemson even if gets the program to a point where it consistently makes the tournament - something we probably can't expect of a young coach if we replace Brad and have success.

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 10:15 PM
 

You realize the bowls are a joke. 38 or so and you go with six wins so can't compare BBall to bowls. Our facilities are fine. Our recruiting is not better. People thought Zion was coming to Clemson. I knew better. In contention for another 5 star this year. I knew he would go to Tennessee. You have to keep in state talent. Georgia is the same way. Georgia State and Wofford are the best two teams in each state. What a shame. Bottom line, Brad can't close the deal and never will.

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 17, 2019, 10:51 PM
 

Agree to disagree on that I think a lot the the and matchups in the tourney are just as much of a joke as the bowls, roughly 74+ teams make bowls and around 138 make the tourney, I don’t see where it’s that big of a diff when you have a lot of teams making the tourney the don’t deserve it not to mention a play in game now lol I agree some of the bowls are a joke but again there aren’t just as many teams that make the tourney that’s a joke too, look at the majority of years it’s always 2 one seeds and a two seed or three and then every now and then randomly a 6-7 seed that will occasionally make the final four ... a quarter of the tourney games if not more are just as pointless as the bowl games ... I just don’t think it’s as far fetched of a comparison as some say is all, but that’s just my opinion we don’t have to agree

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Well said***


Posted: Feb 18, 2019, 12:12 AM
 



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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...

[1]
Posted: Feb 18, 2019, 8:44 AM
 

Did Oliver Purnell ever make it to the sweet 16 or produce 3 NBA players? Didn't think so. Quit living in the mediocre past and join the new wave

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 1:25 AM
 

Lol new wave ?? Haha Op was here 7 years and went to 3 tourneys and he took over an absolute dump so his first two years were just trying to put a competitive team on the floor... look at his record, progression. And had a couple bad breaks in the tourney as well as matchups.

BB has been here 9 and unless something magical happens will have made the tourney twice and once was his first year with OPs players , they inherited completely diff talent levels... and while last years run was amazing and a blast, we also got very fortunate with the matchups... auburn proved they were one of the most inconsistent teams in the country he!! The dirtpeckers even beat em up orettt good I believe... they were not a very good team if the three ball wasn’t Fallin and I’m pretty sure one of their best players was injured.

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 1:27 AM
 

Not to mention he completely changed the atmosphere in LJC and it was an awesome time and that place was rockin , I’ll be there tue night for the first time this year but from the looks of the games prior and the couple I was able to make it to last year, we have a LOnG way to go to get back to any home court advantage or toughness

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Brad is not a great coach or recruiter


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 3:25 PM
 

He will never have great teams because he is not a great recruiter and hasn't been able to bring in the talent that the other ACC teams have.

To compete we need to win and get to the NCAAs, not the NIT - then the players will come

There used to be the old argument that good fb players wouldn't come to Clemson because of where we are located, etc.

Well Danny and Dabo put that to bed -

Just get the job done

He has had winning records overall but the program is not advancing and has definitely under performed this year

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You're going to great lengths to discredit Brownell.


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 2:05 PM
 

-First year's success isn't due to him, but to OP's players
-Last year's success was due to being fortunate with the matchups in the NCAA Tournament.
-Auburn had their best player out

It's almost as if you don't want to give Brownell credit for anything good. Pathetic.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Thus, we must get Shaka Smart


Posted: Feb 18, 2019, 9:03 PM
 

Spare no expense. Make an offer he can’t refuse ...

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Re: REALLY sick of seeing the basketball excuses...


Posted: Feb 18, 2019, 10:08 PM
 

Retention of BB coach is based partially on results and in large part a function of how well he briefs the AD (and maybe donors) at the end of the season. BB coach communicates a plan annually that convinces senior Athletic Dept management that Tigers are about to turn a corner they get around all too infrequently (on a game to game and season to season basis) for various and numerous reasons. For example, most recently an over reliance on transfers has evolved which points to an inability to compete on the HS recruiting trail. One reason possibly is the brand "Clemson Grit" ... may define the coach but may not work for the program. I cringe when I see it (Clemson Grit), in part because it subrogates the University's brand. Does a top level recruit see himself as gritty or advancing to the next level in a program with that mantra? What about using the brand, "Clemson Tigers" and all that entails ... isn't that enough? Change needed

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I'm not sure who came up with Clemson Grit.


Posted: Feb 19, 2019, 2:11 PM
 

Personally, I don't have a problem with it, although I wouldn't have chosen that myself. I'm not sure how it undermines the Clemson brand though. If we are going to be concerned about Clemson's brand, then let's also take a critical look at some of the stuff that has come from our football program:

"We Too Deep"
"Rest of Y'all Bus"
"Bring Your Own Guts"

etc.

I wouldn't have chosen these, and I don't think they necessarily promote the Clemson brand in the best possible way. However, they seem to work for Dabo and the football program, so I don't think it's a big deal.

I view Clemson Grit the same way.

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Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


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