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Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Replies: 17
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 17, 2024, 2:53 PM
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If they actually witnessed god incarnate walking and talking on the earth, and were accurately recording these events, wouldn't it make sense to let their audience know who they are?
Also, it is accepted that Matthew and Luke extensively used Mark as a source...why not tell us that?
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 17, 2024, 4:52 PM
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That's a complex an intriguing question. I'm not sure that they don't accurately reflect the true author.
In the case of other books in the Bible, the author(s) are more in question for a variety of reasons...for instance, books like Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel span hundreds of years. That would make for some very old authors, if it's only one guy.
A lot of Paul's letters are unquestioned as authentically by Paul.
As for the 4 Gospels, specifically, I think they are different enough to come from different authors. Each includes some stories the others don't, each has a slightly different perspective and style, and each seems to be written at different times for different communities.
If they were all the same I'd find that less believable. And if they were all the same, then why publish all four? You'd only need one if they were identical.
As far as authorship specifically, the names might show who was most influential either at the time the books were written OR, at the time they were assembled into the Bible. That's a harder call.
I mean, Mark might have written his work early and his name stayed on it, or, someone may have come along much later and said "This sounds like what Mark thought," put his name on it. Tough to say.
The works stand alone regardless of how they are titled, imo. What I find really interesting, is who they were written TO.
Mark is super casual compared to John. John talks all about high-concepts like The Light and The Word; Mark, not so much. To broaden the scope, Hebrews is a clear attempt to bring old-school Jews into the fold. The name is a giveaway, of course, but the content in written in terms, and in arguments, that are aimed at a specific community that is not "All in" just yet.
The name itself could be for the appeal of a community in itself. Say an anonymous author writes a work for Luke's community after Luke has died. To give it credence, he just calls it 'Luke.' The community would have known if it passed the sniff test. They'd either say "Yeah, that sounds like what Luke said or did," or they would have said; "That sounds bogus. Luke never talked like that."
There's a great example of that in the Apocryphal Gospel of Mary:
Chapter 9
1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.
2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.
3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.
4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?
5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?
6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.
7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.
8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.
9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.
That is an incredible view into the Jesus's Inner Circle. You see disagreement, doubt, emotion, and agreement, everything in 9 short verses.
That's believable.
A group of apostle robots saying "God came to us all in the exactly same way and we all understand him in exactly the same way because we as individuals are all exactly the same" is not as believable, to me.
How many other times did the Apostles disagree among themselves, or question what Jesus meant, you know? They were trying to figure it all out, too.
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
Dec 17, 2024, 5:05 PM
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I moved a little off topic with Mary ( if the book was from her) but that episode blows me away. That’s all of religion encapsulated in a little campfire huddle among those closest to Jesus.
“Did God (Jesus in this case) tell you something he didn’t tell me?
Did he tell Baptists something he didn’t tell Mormons?
Did he tell Jews something he didn’t tell Sikhs?
And who’s gonna steep up and say “I know what God told you?” (Aside from Peter and Andrew, if course, lol)
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 17, 2024, 6:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves? ] |
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I agree they are stand alone accounts, but scholars are pretty much unanimous that Matthew and Luke borrowed from Mark, and all three possibly used another source as well. That doesn’t bother me at all.
Paul and the other New Testament writers all identify themselves as authors correct? It’s just these four books, the gospels, that don’t. That just seems odd to me. Not in a negative way necessarily, but apparently it was common back then to write fanciful stories and not attach your name to it.
Did the author not want their name associated with it?
You would think they would IF they really believed they were writing about the son of god.
What reason would there be to remain anonymous?
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 17, 2024, 9:00 PM
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I agree with all that.
I think if they didn't want to be associated with it they'd just leave it anonymous, or not write anything at all.
My guess is that they either were attributed correctly, or attributed to gain credibility.
I think the fact that the books do carry names at all indicates that Matt, Mark, Luke, and John were pretty well known, and pretty well respected, in their communities.
The other option, though I don't think it applies here, is a case like say, Isaiah, as I mentioned. In that case it seems there was an earlier, shorter, book that was added to multiple times over an extended period, and the name just never changed to reflect those changes.
Like, when the Big 10 was actually ten teams, instead of however many it is now. They just didn't change the name of that either.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 18, 2024, 7:33 PM
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From what I’ve read the writing style of Luke and Acts seems to make his authorship pretty solid. There are medical terms in both that allude to him really being a doctor, and some of the wording suggests he was definitely Paul’s companion. When I studied and taught the bible, his gospel was always my favorite.
My question in the OP was a legitimate one. I wasn’t trolling at all really. Hoped to get more input from the believers as to why maybe they didn’t claim authorship. Seems like if I was the one to write about the life of times of the savior of the world I would want to put my name with it.
It kind of frustrates me lol. Why not just say who you are? No one does that today. I’ve read that it was a thing in ancient times.
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
Dec 18, 2024, 8:13 PM
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>I’ve read that it was a thing in ancient times.
I imagine every case is different.
Sometimes, names may have been removed for whatever reason. Maybe safety. Or, the author may have been obvious to the people of the time, because whoever wrote the document was the same guy that was handing it out. "You don't have to tell me you wrote it, you handed it to me."
There are some strange verses like Matt 9:9 "As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him."
Is that the same Matt, or a different Matt? Then there's the famous Moses died line, from Deut, which is supposed to be written by Moses himself.
Deuteronomy 34:7
"Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died..."
Although John of Patmos takes credit for Revelation, I'm pretty sure a large part of symbolism there is for his own protection. He was alive to hear of Peter and Paul's martyrdom in Rome, after all. And who knows how many other people he knew.
Could be for any of the above, or other reasons. Just a different time, under different conditions.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 18, 2024, 8:45 PM
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Well Tertullian reported that John was dipped into boiling oil and came out unharmed. So I doubt he was worried about it.
“Legend was also active in the West, being especially stimulated by the passage in Mark 10:39, with its hints of John’s martyrdom. Tertullian, the 2nd-century North African theologian, reports that John was plunged into boiling oil from which he miraculously escaped unscathed. During the 7th century this scene was portrayed in the Lateran basilica and located in Rome by the Latin Gate, and the miracle is still celebrated in some traditions. In the original form of the apocryphal Acts of John (second half of the 2nd century) the apostle dies, but in later traditions he is assumed to have ascended to heaven like Enoch and Elijah.”
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-John-the-Apostle
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Commissioner [1229]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 18, 2024, 8:10 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves? ] |
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Interesting. In a discussion with our pastor, he related that some biblical scholars differ on the authorship of Ephesians. That it seemed to be one of Paul's letters that didn't really sound like Paul.
He attributed this to maybe someone transcribing for Paul and/or the fact that it was meant for more than one church in Ephesus as these letters were often passed around from church to church.
I'm certain that if you got enough biblical scholars in a room they would differ on a great deal.
I have seen where authorship is "attributed to" in all the books of the OT and NT. Because we really don't know.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 18, 2024, 10:29 AM
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All the New Testament letters identify the author at the beginning. Of course this could have been added later….”attributed”, but if you were going to add that why not do it for the gospels also.
Luke is the only one that comes close. At the beginning of Acts the author refers to his previous work but never says his name.
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 18, 2024, 11:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves? ] |
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>often passed around from church to church.
This is key in my mind for any document, Biblical or otherwise...from a personal diary to a John Deere spec manual.
No one writes in a void. There's always a context. And it's almost impossible to fully understand any document unless one knows the full context in which it was written.
When I studied lit & poetry in school, I had several teachers who said, "Learn about the author's lives and that will help you understand their works. People write about what they know, or experience."
It was true, and good advice for understanding writings.
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Commissioner [1229]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 18, 2024, 1:36 PM
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Agree, the same would hold true for any "artistic" endeavor. In the college of architecture I had a professor that used that same philosophy. He would tell you if you want to design like Frank Lloyd Wright, don't study his work, study what he studied.
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
Dec 18, 2024, 4:43 PM
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A fellow brother of Lee Hall? Where the Sun never sets. I think 88 is in our club, too. Or maybe Lowry.
ClemsonTiger1988®
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98420]
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Yeah, but I had a wife who was deadset on getting fat and 5 kids who...
Dec 20, 2024, 6:11 AM
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did without so daddy could do college.
I worked for 2-1/2 years while taking 12-15 hours then did my Sr year in six months (42 hours). I'd transferred in six months work, two quarters, from G'ville Tech.
I think Liska and Schutte passed me to get rid of me. I threated to take Eubanks out and pave the parking lot with his asz over a exam I missed because my wife had a miscarriage. He told me I didn't belong.
His issue was that he was trying to decide how to build a house and I was the expert in the room being I'd spent the last 12+ years of my life building houses. It started when he asked a certain student named James if he should use roof trusses on 24" center to center spacing.
The kid's daddy was a builder and it was clear he didn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. Eubanks decided on using 24" CC spacing to save money.
I interrupted and injected some questions and facts. 24" spacing is fine if you're selling the house but if you're going to live in it you'll notice the sheetrock sagging in about 7 years according to how well the attic is insulated and moisture control inside your house. That isn't an issue in AZ but in the humid south it can damage the value of the house. 'Put your ceiling joist/trusses on 16" centers.'
Eubanks got ill as hell. He didn't take to learning from a student. Engineers, right?
BTW. 24 semester hours spring of 88 and two (2) nine hour summer sessions. Dr Book refused to sign my class signup sheet. The good Doctor said, and I quote, "I don't know what type of game you're playing but you'll never do it!"
I told him that if the Wright Brothers believed that we'd still be taking boats to Europe.
Also, I took Eubank's construction and finance course and exempt the final. When he called my name on the exempt list I said, 'I never exempted a final exam before, you busted my cherry.' Which was a lie but I wanted in his grad level funding and finance class next semester so I made amends for the hard times we'd had in the past. I got an A in that class too.
College wasn't fun and games for me.
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Clemson Conqueror [11381]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 17, 2024, 6:53 PM
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Because they made it all up.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98420]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 18, 2024, 6:29 AM
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Hebrews 3:
"15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."
No, I didn't 'go find,' this for you, TBD. It was the last of yesterday morning's Bible reading for me.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Why do the gospel writers never identify themselves?
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Dec 18, 2024, 6:52 AM
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Where did I say I didn’t believe?
I just asked for theories on why the gospel authors dont identify themselves.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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