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Replies: 24
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Paw Master [17746]
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Random question for Religion & Philosophy
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Feb 11, 2025, 10:43 PM
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Why do you think God or nature or whatever you want to call it, gave us Grief? Why must we feel grief? What is it the reason for us needing it? It's is natural. Why?
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I can only speak for me
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Feb 11, 2025, 10:54 PM
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But grief seems to me to be the flip side of love. In other words for me to love someone, to want their presence, to want the best for them, would require me to miss that when they no longer are here.
Years ago I was reading "A Grief Observed" by CS Lewis. The copy i owned was purchased at a used book store and had evidently been owned by someone who had lost someone they loved named Naomi. Every time in the book that CS Lewis used pronouns for his wife (which is the subject of the book), someone had written Naomi's name in the place. It was a moment when I realized grief is incredible personal and also incredibly universal. CS Lewis has a great line in that book where he says “The pain I feel now is the happiness I had before. That's the deal.”
When I was younger I lost my Father who was the greatest effing man I've ever met. It's been 13 years, and I sill miss him every day. I grieve his loss.
I also grieve the loss of my first marriage.
They are different griefs, but both very real. And they both are in proportion to the loves (both the depth and forms) that existed while they did.
So, in short (too late), in my estimation grief is simply the reflection of missing the depth of love you once felt.
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Paw Master [17746]
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Re: I can only speak for me
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Feb 11, 2025, 11:02 PM
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I appreciate that answer. I have been going through a lot of grief this past year, so I relate. Anyway, I was watching Ken Burns documentary on PBS the other night and Thomas Jefferson questioned why we need grief. I thought, "Yeah why the f... do we have to feel grief at all?"
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Top TigerNet [30151]
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I am, genuinely, sorry for your grief
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Feb 11, 2025, 11:07 PM
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The only possible advice I have for you is to embrace and process it.
I can tell you I miss my dad every day. I haven't missed my ex wife in years.
Both processed, but yet I feel one and not the other. We're strange friggin creatures aren't we.
I also, genuinely, want you to know if you need a person to vent or talk to I'm here.
I've seen grief cripple too many people.
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Paw Master [17746]
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Re: I am, genuinely, sorry for your grief
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Feb 11, 2025, 11:23 PM
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I appreciate that. Yeah, I am all good, but I like hearing other opinions and stories. Yeah, I am sure I will see a lot more of it. This last year was a doozy. Hopefully I am more prepared down the road. I have seen plenty of death spread out through the years, but this last year or two the ones who have passed have been harder to shake off.
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Paw Master [17746]
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Re: I am, genuinely, sorry for your grief
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Feb 11, 2025, 11:25 PM
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Oh yeah, why do we need grief? That's for anyone else who may respond. "God", nature, whatever, should have made it so we didn't have that horrible feelings. Maybe it helps us protect things we love or work together? I don't know.
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Valley Legend [12477]
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A lot of wisdom here, Thom.
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Feb 11, 2025, 11:57 PM
[ in reply to I can only speak for me ] |
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Grief is a wound and its depth depends on how we love. The wound heals but it leaves a scar on you. And in my experience, at a point in the future, you remember all the good things and worry less about the scar. For us to labor too long on the cause of the scar deprives us of life and dignity to those that gave us the wound. Always love as best you can and remember the love greatly and do your best to appreciate the scar it gave you.
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Paw Master [17746]
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Re: A lot of wisdom here, Thom.
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Feb 12, 2025, 12:01 AM
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Yep, but why do we naturally have grief and why is it needed? It's beyond our choice most would say. Thomas Jefferson wondered the same thing.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101132]
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Top TigerNet [31807]
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Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy
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Feb 12, 2025, 12:45 AM
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I'm in the camp that sees it as the flip side of love, or desire. Two sides of the same coin, so I'm not sure if it's possible to have one without the other.
Another good CS Lewis call is the movie Shadowlands, where he copes with and questions the pain associated with his own loved one. If one felt nothing, or indifference, at the loss of a loved one, could they say it was love to begin with?
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [105594]
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Simple. But for grief, how would you appreciate (or even know) happiness?
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Feb 12, 2025, 4:49 AM
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Age old question. If God is good, why is there evil?
Because without evil, you would never notice nor appreciate good (or God). The simple existence of evil is the only reason you could even ask the question.
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Orange Immortal [63286]
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I think that's it.
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Feb 12, 2025, 7:24 AM
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For God, the extremes of this "duality" and it's opposite extremes are desirable. It's a separate question or debate, but a truly all-powerful God could accomplish any goal without having to do anything any certain way, but here we are. If there is a God who is all-powerful, this is what he wants. Somehow, it provides what he wants. Maybe it's what we need for spiritual development.... or maybe it provides a desired experience for God himself ... or both.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [105594]
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Re: I think that's it.
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Feb 12, 2025, 9:55 AM
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You can never know or appreciate goodness, happiness, or God, if you do not have a juxtaposition like evil, unhappiness, and the devil to shine the light. You have to know evil to appreciate God.
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Orange Immortal [63286]
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I understand the concept, and I am agreeing with you.
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Feb 12, 2025, 10:57 AM
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Those are the laws and realities of this universe, as we know it.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101132]
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Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy
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Feb 12, 2025, 7:49 AM
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When God said, 'Let us make man in our image,' He determined that we would share that attribute. We share many of God's attributes, love, hate, jealousy, contempt...and the list goes on and on. It would be easier to list what we didn't inherit from God than what we did. I didn't want that to read awkward, it was shoot from the hip.
All my life I've wondered what benefit such separation from those we love could be to me. How does losing a loved one benefit me? Why did my father die, why did I lose my 36 yr old son...the list goes on and on.
I've often heard those who suffer the loss of a child have suffered the greatest of losses. No man with even one child will dispute that. We'd sacrifice our eyes before we willingly give up the life of one child. Is there a limit to what I would have done to preserve the life of my son? Do the math!
I'm not one to demand answers from God. I'm not prone to claim God unjust; My MO is to seek Him out for answers and not 'jump the gun,' and deliberate on anything until He addresses my question(s). So I'm going to reveal all I know and from my experience with Phillip dying just a few months ago I can declare the truth to anyone who has a child.
I got a full dose of exactly what God suffered when we hanged Jesus, His only begotten son, on a cross. I saw my son suffer from drug abuse and I saw it kill him. I know that we will rejoin our fellowship on that great day when Christ returns but sooner for me since I'm 72 now and may not see that day in this flesh.
So did God, He knew Jesus would soon join Him in glory but the separation was just as real for Him as it is for me, vica versa might be more applicable. IDK, it's all relative.
I get these small glimpses of God's point of view and I tremble as I see His love and His loving kindness extended to us. It was for you that Jesus suffered and died, it was for you that God grieved like we puny humans who are unworthy to be in His presence.
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Orange Immortal [63286]
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Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy
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Feb 12, 2025, 8:33 AM
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I am very, very sorry about your son; I had no idea. Sending thoughts and prayers.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101132]
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My experience is uncommon.
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Feb 12, 2025, 9:07 AM
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I know folks here will think a lot less of me when I say this.
God began preparing me for this 30 years ago. I had a neighbor who loved God more than life. Wayne was wonderful Christian man who quit a very secure job, selling insurance, to change his life to what he believed would benefit his relationship with God. He took a job working for me without me asking. I hired him on the spot.
Wayne and I visited each other's churches on visitation nights. He went with me on Tues and I him on Thurs. We worked hand in hand everyday.
One afternoon he shared a story with me. A young lady, 22 y/o at his church had cancer. He and the congregation prayed for her and Wayne, I know had the faith to insist God do His work and deliver that child from cancer.
He said the day he heard the girl had died he went straight to God looking for any answer to why she died. "You asked that she be delivered, I have given her the greater deliverance.'
The last year or so of Phillip's life was the most miserable time of my life. I prayed in faith that God would deliver him. I knew the risk, if you can call trusting in God 'risk.' The last time Phillip came to visit I prayed for him as he walked toward the back door on his way out. I looked away and rationalized that perhaps God had other plans. Still there seemed to be a bit of blindsiding when the phone rang. I knew from the look on Phil's bother's face that it had happened.
I try to grieve but I know the joy of the Lord. My grief turns to joy before the tears roll from my eyes. I hurt but I know I'd trade places with Phillip, not to preserve his life but to give me my heart's desire, to be out of this flesh of death and into a body of life with Him who created me.
Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with me that my heart isn't crushed and my life destroyed, I wonder if others would think I'm gone insane if I really opened up and shared this. It's an experience I've heard about only in a song.
This hymn was written after traumatic events in Spafford's life. The first was the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, which ruined him financially (Spafford had been a successful lawyer and had invested significantly in property in the area of Chicago that was extensively damaged by the great fire).[1] His business interests were further hit by the economic downturn of 1873, at which time Spafford had planned to travel to England with his family on the SS Ville du Havre, to help with Dwight L. Moody's upcoming evangelistic campaigns. In a late change of plan, Spafford sent his wife, Anna, and their four daughters, Annie, Maggie, Bessie, and Tanetta, ahead while Spafford was delayed on business concerning zoning problems following the Great Chicago Fire. While crossing the Atlantic Ocean, the ship sank rapidly after a collision with a sea vessel, the Loch Earn, killing 226 people, including Annie, Maggie, Bessie, and Tanetta.[2] Anna survived and sent Spafford the now famous telegram, "Saved alone …". Shortly afterwards, as he traveled to England to meet his grieving wife, Spafford was inspired to write these words as his ship passed the spot near where his four daughters had died.[3] Bliss called his tune Ville du Havre, from the name of the stricken vessel.[4]
The sinking of the steamship Ville du Havre
Philip Bliss
Original lyrics
It is Well with My Soul, first print 1876
When peace like a river, attends my way,
When sorrows like sea billows roll;
Whatever my lot, You have taught me to know
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
Refrain
It is well, (it is well),
With my soul, (with my soul)
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blest assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And has shed His own blood for my soul.
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to His cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!
For me, be it Christ, be it Christ hence to live:
If Jordan above me shall roll,
No pang shall be mine, for in death as in life,
Thou wilt whisper Thy peace to my soul.
And Lord, haste the day when the faith shall be sight,
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend,
A song in the night, oh my soul![c]
Thank you for the prayers and I assure you, I call your name to the Lord often. You are His love.
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Game Changer [1626]
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Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy
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Feb 13, 2025, 8:26 AM
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I suppose my answer may be somewhat simplistic to those offered. There are other emotions that ask the same question, Why? Guilt and worry.
Why do we feel guilty? Because you care.
Why do I worry? Because you care.
Why do I grieve? Because you care.
We grieve those that we love. In order to love, really love, you have to give part of yourself. So, part of ourselves feels gone. Grieving restores that. The act of remembrance brings back that love.
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Orange Immortal [63286]
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Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy
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Feb 13, 2025, 5:44 PM
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I think that's a good reasonable answer, but not complete. I don't disagree, I mean it would seem that since the only way we as humans, in this reality, can experience any feeling or emotion, and appreciate it fully, is to experience the opposite feeling or emotion. No doubt that's the way it works. But, that begs the question:
"Did God have to do it that way; was he somehow limited as to what he was able to do? Or could he have given us love and happiness and total fulfillment and appreciation for it all, without any pain or suffering or punishment? Did he choose to make or allow us suffer unnecessarily?"
Personally, I don't think we can possibly know the answer with any certainty whatsoever, but I think the answer is critical when trying to understand the nature and character of God.
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Game Changer [1626]
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Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy
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Feb 14, 2025, 8:38 AM
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I believe our first mistake is trying to understand the nature and character of God. We are very limited in our understanding and are left with what we assume to be the "right" answers.
If God simply gave us all the love, happiness and total fulfillment, how would we know? How could we ever hope to appreciate it?
That being said, I wouldn't use the word "unnecessary". That's our term. That's our assessment based on our ideas and value systems. Maybe it is necessary. We certainly don't like it, but maybe it is, in it's own way, necessary.
Do millions have to die in war before we finally get the idea that's it's wrong? How many suffering throughout the world do we need to see before we step in and help? Certainly in this country a lot of our pain and suffering is self-inflicted. Do we really need to contract diabetes before we stop eating jelly donuts?
I'm not trying to pontificate here. I'm just as bad as the next guy. Just throwing examples of pain and suffering out there that we may find unnecessary.
I have a friend that was just diagnosed with cancer. It's unfair and seems totally unnecessary. And for that, I have no answer. Maybe it's God telling me to live every day as if it were my last. Who knows? But when my sister was going through her last days of breast cancer she said to me that we all die, I just have a better idea as to how and when than you do.
I'm still pissed at God over that one. Totally unfair. Totally unnecessary. Wasn't it?
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Paw Master [17746]
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Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy
Feb 14, 2025, 8:42 AM
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Let's say there is no God. Trying to understand nature and what is reason for grief scientifically or what survival mode does grief kick in. Fear seems like an obvious thing that is needed. Love seems obvious. Joy seems obvious. Grief seems more ambiguous as to why it is needed scientifically.
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Orange Immortal [63286]
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Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy
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Feb 14, 2025, 10:25 AM
[ in reply to Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy ] |
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Like I said, I don't think it's possible to know all of these answers, and I agree 100% that if there is a God, we can't begin to understand and comprehend him/her. So, while that should not be the expectation, it doesn't follow that we should not try to understand as much as we can.
Of course "unnecessary" is a human term, and comes with all of the limitations that entails. Again, I am not suggesting otherwise. Every word we use to describe and even think about and conceptualize God is limited in that way, and we are left trying to make God fit into terms and concepts we can define and understand. It's all we've got; our only alternative is to not think about God at all.
If God simply gave us all the love, happiness and total fulfillment, how would we know? How could we ever hope to appreciate it?
It's a very fair and reasonable question, but again it's irrelevant to mine, and my point. If God made us in such a way that limits and requires anything of us, it's very reasonable to ask "why" (because he had to do it that way, or was it entirely his choice? If he chose to do it that way, what are the implications?), even if we can't possibly know the answer.
If we can't apply human terms/words to God, we can't say or think he's "good", "perfect", "holy", "loving", "all-powerful" or anything. But, if it is legitimate to talk and think of God in those terms, then we can't claim it's not legitimate to use terms like "unnecessary" or "limited" just because they are human terms.
So, a lot of believers gush with extravagant human terms when talking about God as they want or believe him to be, but claim it's not legitimate to do so if it doesn't fit their human idea of God.
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Game Changer [1626]
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Re: Random question for Religion & Philosophy
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Feb 14, 2025, 2:32 PM
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Why....certainly. I've been asking that from God for over 10 years since my sister passed. Not getting an answer to date.
In my own way, I was trying to answer the OP. Not asking God why we grieve. Asking why we grieve period. And it's not that I don't think that we shouldn't question God (see above).
I heard once that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. Which I was trying to imply by my previous reply. We care.
I believe whether or not God "chose" this or God "had to" do this is off the point. God doesn't HAVE to do anything. Nor would I believe God was COMPELLED to do anything either. We are this way, either way.
I cannot describe the colors black and white without referencing one or the other. How would I know what one is without the other? That's where I was going with appreciation. You gain an appreciation for food when you go hungry and finally get something to eat, not when you are full and can eat no more. And maybe that's it.
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Orange Immortal [63286]
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Yes, I get it, and understand it fully.
Feb 14, 2025, 3:08 PM
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The original question was "Why did God give us grief. Why must we feel it?"
Your answer, that we must feel grief in order to appreciate it's opposite (happiness/fulfillment) is perfectly logical, and I don't dispute it.
I'm just pointing out that any answer to that question carries with it further implications and begs more questions.
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Replies: 24
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