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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Look at this quote from Tillman!!!
Jul 6, 2015, 11:46 PM
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I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, ... I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
Oh crap...my bad... that was Abraham Lincoln.
We need to start melting pennies now I guess.
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1st Rounder [681]
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Re: Look at this quote from Tillman!!!
Jul 7, 2015, 12:38 AM
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Good one. But Lincoln did do some redeeming things for African Americans. Ending slavery was pretty big. And racist words aren't the same as killing African Americans, which Tillman did.
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Much of what Lincoln did for blacks was strategic expediency
Jul 7, 2015, 12:47 AM
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I like Lincoln, I'm not trying to trash the guy. And I like him a heck of a lot more than Tillman, but Lincoln didn't live in the South. Context is King. Most Christians would be born Muslims if they were born in the Muslim World and vice-versa.
Benjamin Tillman wouldn't have said any of that stuff had he been born today and plenty of people today who would never say anything like that.... would have had they lived back then.
“Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission, composed of Colonel Crooks, Lt. Colonel Marshall, Captain Grant, Captain Bailey, and Lieutenant Olin, and lately sitting in Minnesota, you cause to be executed on Friday the nineteenth day of December, instant, the following names, to wit… “ Text from President Lincoln to General Sibley ordering the execution of American Indians in Minnesota.
“If ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi… in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy them all.”
Thomas Jefferson talking about Native Americans
“My original convictions upon this subject have been confirmed by the course of events for several years, and experience is every day adding to their strength. That those tribes cannot exist surrounded by our settlements and in continual contact with our citizens is certain. They have neither the intelligence, the industry, the moral habits, nor the desire of improvement which are essential to any favorable change in their condition. Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority or seeking to control them, they must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear.”
Andrew Jackson
Are you getting the point yet? People are ignorant... and their judgement is arbitrary.
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Athletic Dir [878]
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Re: Much of what Lincoln did for blacks was strategic expediency
Jul 7, 2015, 1:06 AM
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This population, in general, is beyond common sense!
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101830]
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He was a politician.
Jul 7, 2015, 3:34 AM
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He signed the emancipation proclamation to generate funding and morale for soldiers. Southerners were tired of the war, their crops hadn't been properly cared for since it began almost three years earlier. The northern soldiers felt the same.
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Game Changer [1940]
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Anyone who has studied Lincoln, knows the only redeeming
Jul 7, 2015, 2:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: Look at this quote from Tillman!!! ] |
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He did for anyone was for himself. He came from a Basket case family and was him self one. He didn't care two sh!ts for blacks. Don't believe me ... start digging and find out for yourself.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101830]
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CU Guru [1898]
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Source please.***
Jul 7, 2015, 12:54 AM
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Orange Elite [5492]
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Re: Source please.***
Jul 8, 2015, 8:06 AM
[ in reply to Source please.*** ] |
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Source? Really is this the first time you've heard this a Lincoln? He said if he could after the war he'd send all blacks back to where they came from.
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Varsity [103]
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Re: Look at this quote from Tillman!!!
Jul 7, 2015, 5:03 AM
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I have heard - and I say 'heard' - that Lincoln's plan before being assassinated, was to return all Black people to Africa. Only because of his death was that plan not carried out.
Can anyone verify that? I had never heard that until recent weeks, so that's probably untrue. But I'm not much of a historian, so I have no clue whether to believe that or not.
Just in case, I'm keeping my dang pennies and my $5 bills. 
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Commissioner [1271]
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Re: Look at this quote from Tillman!!!
Jul 7, 2015, 6:45 AM
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I believe the plan was to drop slaves in the jungles of central America.
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110%er [5513]
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CU Guru [1245]
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Rival Killer [2814]
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Lincoln didn't need to "change." The quote above leaves out
Jul 7, 2015, 8:26 AM
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the lines following, in which Lincoln clearly states he is opposed to slavery.
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Do you understand that white supremacy and supporting
Jul 7, 2015, 8:48 AM
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emancipation can be done at the same time by the same person?
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Clemson Sports Icon [59163]
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Better send the Clemson Police to DC at once.......***
Jul 7, 2015, 8:16 AM
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Rival Killer [2814]
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It's interesting that you "forgot" to put the last two lines
Jul 7, 2015, 8:26 AM
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in from that quote: "I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone." This is why I always tell my students, "Stormfront is not a source for your research papers." Advice you should certainly live by.
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Why are you pretending that those two lines change anything?
Jul 7, 2015, 8:37 AM
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He was a white Supremacist who didn't like Slavery. Who said anything against that? The two lines you mention are Lincoln trying to convince people that freeing slaves wouldn't lead to racial mixing.
What did you think you were on to? And what's this about sourcing? I don't rely on the internet for my historical perspective. It helps to copy and paste quotes I already know about from experience, but I don't find my perspective on Google.
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Oculus Spirit [42105]
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It's interesting that you "forgot" some lines as well
Jul 7, 2015, 8:37 AM
[ in reply to It's interesting that you "forgot" to put the last two lines ] |
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Here it is:
While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing perfect equality between the negroes and white people. While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me, I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman, or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. I recollect of but one distinguished instance that I ever heard of so frequently as to be entirely satisfied of its correctness, and that is the case of Judge Douglas’s old friend Col. Richard M. Johnson. I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject), that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it; but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. I will add one further word, which is this: that I do not understand that there is any place where an alteration of the social and political relations of the negro and the white man can be made, except in the State Legislature,—not in the Congress of the United States; and as I do not really apprehend the approach of any such thing myself, and as Judge Douglas seems to be in constant horror that some such danger is rapidly approaching, I propose as the best means to prevent it that the Judge be kept at home, and placed in the State Legislature to fight the measure. I do not propose dwelling longer at this time on this subject.
http://www.bartleby.com/251/41.html paragraph 2
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: Look at this quote from Tillman!!!
Jul 7, 2015, 8:29 AM
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The problem is you have to judge historical figures to their peers.
While Lincoln looks like an ardent racist today. During his life he was seen as a radical who would end slavery, which is why the South seceded.
Benjamin Tillman was seen as a crackpot by his peers. He was too extremist even when racism was accepted.
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Oculus Spirit [42105]
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Then why was he elected as Govenor or Senator for 28 years
Jul 7, 2015, 8:41 AM
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straight. Apparently he was well liked by his constituents.
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: Then why was he elected as Govenor or Senator for 28 years
Jul 7, 2015, 8:54 AM
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The same reason South Carolina is currently ranked 51st in education in this country.
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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You are apparently ranked 52nd in geography.***
Jul 7, 2015, 9:29 AM
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Orange Blooded [2537]
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Re: "the same reason education in SC is...blah blah, cluck cluck cluck
Jul 7, 2015, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Then why was he elected as Govenor or Senator for 28 years ] |
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You freakin' moron classlesscoot....he never ran for office in SC to get re-ellected.
You can offer all the free education you want to dump on someone, but if they don't care to learn, or it doesn't fit in well with their style or their acceptable societal image....then they'll never be apart of contributing society, no matter how much free sh!t you give them.
First you have to give people a means of earning a way out of cyclic negative - yet redeeming system, while we try to educate them through the "pains & adversity" of becoming quality citizens & breaking chains of their peer's judgements of them.
Then hopefully they don't just take the free stuff & run, falling back into ignorant behavior & the same poverty-stricken situation, making money off illegal & criminal acts...rather than benefitting society!
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Using that logic, then only progressive minded people will
Jul 7, 2015, 8:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: Look at this quote from Tillman!!! ] |
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ever be judged as good people. And the definition of progressive will change with each generation once values have been adjusted. Maybe you should just stop judging altogether since reality maybe more complicated than most people are willing to understand.
And you were wrong about the perception of Benjamin Tillman. He was a successful politician. The ideology of white supremacy was not under threat for generations before so naturally when any ideology is under threat it's supporters become more desperate and more hostile.
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: Using that logic, then only progressive minded people will
Jul 7, 2015, 9:02 AM
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Yes, history is always going to look favorably on people who made the world a better place.
History is never going to be kind to those who prevented progress. Do you honestly think we should praise people who were wrong?
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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The world isn't a better place. And for every good thing
Jul 7, 2015, 9:07 AM
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that has ever happened a bad thing has happened along with it. When we as a society suffer less we become lazier and more likely to take things for granted. We don't have a greatest generation because technological advances made things so much more convenient for them, you have a greatest generation because they overcame tremendous difficulties and made the United States a world superpower. Yeah the greatest generation was more close-minded about people who were different than them. So, today we have people who are more open-minded towards people who are different than them but fundamentally lazier and less able to handle problems. We also have people who are more diluted to the nature of reality because we are insulated from it thanks to all of our excess wealth.
Technology doesn't make us better people. Neither does political correctness.
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: The world isn't a better place. And for every good thing
Jul 7, 2015, 9:50 AM
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Just stop.
When your first line is, "the world isn't a better place" you are misinformed.
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TigerNet Elite [69727]
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LOL...oh the hypocrisy and the irony......
Jul 7, 2015, 9:53 AM
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YOU referring to ANYONE as misinformed is the absolute epitome of hypocrisy.
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: Haha. Uh... ok.
Jul 7, 2015, 10:01 AM
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Says the guy arguing 1850s America was a better place than today...
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Reading comprehension fail. You might want to criticize
Jul 7, 2015, 10:09 AM
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your own ability to read instead of what others are saying. Just for a little while.
If my argument is that no time in history is objectively morally better than any other time, globally speaking, then how do you get that I believe that the 1850s is better than today?
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: Reading comprehension fail. You might want to criticize
Jul 7, 2015, 10:46 AM
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Either way you phrase it, you're still wrong.
Arguing the 1850s is equal today is no better than arguing the 1850s was better.
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: Yeah and the USA has 51 states. Glad you are up on your
Jul 7, 2015, 1:34 PM
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It blows my mind you don't understand why we are 51.
But the fact you don't is a product of us being 51.
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Yeah well it's odd to me that they include a non-state in
Jul 7, 2015, 2:12 PM
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the recent educational state rankings.
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TigerNet Elite [69727]
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The father of our country.....
Jul 7, 2015, 9:10 AM
[ in reply to Re: Using that logic, then only progressive minded people will ] |
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George Washington and the principal author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson were both slave owners. On that basis, are you suggesting that we remove or rename every street, building or monument around this country that bears those names?
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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it's funny how we only focus on the plight of black people
Jul 7, 2015, 9:32 AM
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in this country's history. With all of the crap that was done to Native Americans and all of the key American historical figures who participated in genocide you have to ask yourself how Blacks cornered the market in White guilt.
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: The father of our country.....
Jul 7, 2015, 9:52 AM
[ in reply to The father of our country..... ] |
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No, that is a false equivalency.
I'll leave the logical fallacies to you biggie.
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TigerNet Elite [69727]
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It's a false equivalency....
Jul 7, 2015, 9:59 AM
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because, at least for the time being, it does not fit your ever changing agenda. Your a$$ must be full of splinters from straddling the fence.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101830]
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: Al would have maintained slavery to preserve the Union.
Jul 7, 2015, 1:42 PM
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Lincoln and Tillman aren't equals. So please stop with the fallacies.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101830]
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Yeah, all politicians are not equal.
Jul 7, 2015, 2:13 PM
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Free yourself from the bonds of spin doctors who claim to screw you for your own benefit.
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Orange Elite [5492]
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TigerNet Elite [69727]
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Orange Elite [5492]
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Orange Elite [5404]
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Re: Look at this quote from Tillman!!!
Jul 8, 2015, 8:28 AM
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Not sure why you're turning this into a USC vs clemson issue.
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Orange Elite [5492]
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Re: Look at this quote from Tillman!!!
Jul 8, 2015, 8:36 AM
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You brought up Tillman. Glass house just broke into pieces
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CU Guru [1527]
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Re: Look at this quote from Tillman!!!
Jul 7, 2015, 8:48 AM
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People were racist in the 1850s? oh no
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Dynasty Maker [3113]
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Lyndon Baines Johnson...
Jul 7, 2015, 9:05 AM
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...used the "N" word like confetti even after he was President. What should we do about that?
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Rival Killer [2672]
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Is there anything in this country named for Woodrow Wilson?
Jul 7, 2015, 10:34 AM
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He was a complete racist, too.
Too bad we'll all be dead when future generations judge us by their contemporary morality and not by what we think is right or wrong.
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Tiger Titan [49905]
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The worst thing Ben Tillman ever did ...
Jul 7, 2015, 12:07 PM
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... was arranging to save the University of South Carolina when many in the state were clamoring to close it.
For that, he can never be forgiven.
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110%er [3925]
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^^^Amen, Amen, and I say, AMEN!***
Jul 7, 2015, 12:12 PM
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CU Guru [1741]
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Totally taken out of context!! Lincoln was a politician....
Jul 7, 2015, 4:15 PM
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The quote you abused was from a debate in Charleston. His opponent, Stephen Douglas, was painting Lincoln as an advocate of equal rights. So no, Lincoln didn't stand up and rattle the cage in room full of racist slave owners.
Lincoln, like most politicians, played the room. And Douglas continued to assert Lincoln was in favor of citizenship for blacks. Why? Because he rightly believed that was Lincoln's true position.
Remember when Clinton played the unions in 1992? It was for votes. Clinton would go to do more damage to unions than any President this side of Teddy Roosevelt. Same concept with Lincoln. He was trying to win votes.
It is right? No. But I wouldn't make a good politician either.
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Legend [6865]
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So you are saying old honest Abe was a
Jul 8, 2015, 6:50 AM
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Liar?
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Clemson Icon [24192]
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Taken out of context? The guy was a White Supremacist.
Jul 8, 2015, 1:04 PM
[ in reply to Totally taken out of context!! Lincoln was a politician.... ] |
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If you are claiming he was only publicly pretending to be one, then, in effect he was a white supremacist politician.
You have no shred of evidence to claim that despite his clear, well-documented stance on the issue, that he really didn't believe all the stuff he said. You need to review your understanding of the phrase "taken out of context." It fits perfectly in the context of, "Abe Lincoln was a white supremacist."
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