|
Replies: 4
| visibility 251
|
Oculus Spirit [94897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95835
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I ran headlong into this:
1
Jun 3, 2024, 6:33 AM
|
|
Isa 53:
"1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Upon whom has God laid all our sin?
|
|
|
|
 |
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: I ran headlong into this:
1
Jun 3, 2024, 12:27 PM
|
|
Isaiah is a good one. I might take it up as my next project after the End Times.
It's hard to break apart because it's one continuous tale, or maybe an allegory. So any single piece taken outside the whole will be out of the context of a pretty long story.
I tend to read it as God speaking of Israel the nation, but in terms of a man. So the nation is God's "Suffering Servant," because of verses like this:
Israel the Chosen
44:1 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.
2 This is what the Lord says—he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you:
Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
It's seemingly written in either 2 or 3 time periods, Chapters 1-39 during the period of King Hezekiah and the Assyrian invasions, and 40-66 later, during the Babylonian Exile.
So the suffering servant might be both the Nation in part I, and King Hezekiah in part II, or, maybe it's the nation in both parts.
I don't usually see it as being about Jesus though because of verses like this:
53:10 "Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand."
God didn't extend Jesus's life, so far as we know. But he gave Hezekiah 15 more years after his illness. And Jesus didn't have offspring, though Hezekiah did, the rotten Manasseh.
I know lots of folks see it differently, so it should make for a fun discussion. I'd like to go chapter by chapter but it's pretty long, not quite 40,000 words. So that's a lot of stuff to talk about.
Maybe I'll read it through 3 times, once thinking of the servant as Israel, once as Hezekiah, and once as Jesus. I can highlight critical verses that might point to each, or any of those options, and we can compare and contrast them. That actually sounds pretty fun for some future posts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: I ran headlong into this:
1
Jun 3, 2024, 12:27 PM
|
|
And Happy Birthday!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95835
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I think it's a mistake to examine these verses with no respect to the...
1
Jun 3, 2024, 9:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: I ran headlong into this: ] |
|
spiritual meaning. God's Word has a way of being superficially simple enough for a child to understand and too complex for the most learned among us. A verse might mean one thing today then be deeper than first though in the future. It can mean more than the picture the words alone paint.
One clue that keys me to a deeper meaning is when it appears the subject change in the middle of a paragraph. To think that happened one would have to think the writers of the Bible were unlearned. No way that's true.
Christians are adopted into God's family. The branch, Israel, was broken off and we were grafted in. We are not of Jewish blood but an adopted child can not be disowned. You can't leave them out of your will either.
"God didn't extend Jesus's life, so far as we know. But he gave Hezekiah 15 more years after his illness. And Jesus didn't have offspring, though Hezekiah did, the rotten Manasseh."
God raised Jesus from the grave and He spent some 40 days, I think, walking among the living here. We might be considered Jesus offspring since we are born of God's Spirit though His blood. IDK, that's a tough one which I've never asked Him about. Either way Isaiah didn't change the subject in the middle of the story. It may be one of those verses that paints a couple pictures.
"Maybe I'll read it through 3 times, once thinking of the servant as Israel, once as Hezekiah, and once as Jesus. I can highlight critical verses that might point to each, or any of those options, and we can compare and contrast them. That actually sounds pretty fun for some future posts."
Be careful, someone might accuse you of making stuff up. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: I think it's a mistake to examine these verses with no respect to the...
Jun 3, 2024, 10:55 PM
|
|
>I think it's a mistake to examine these verses with no respect to the spiritual meaning
Actually, I think that's almost impossible to take the spiritual meaning out.
It's more a matter of "Is the spiritual meaning a prediction of Jesus", or, is the spiritual meaning "a lament of David and his tribulations", or, is the spiritual meaning a story of the trials of the nation of Israel?
All three involve God's interaction, but with whom?
>No way that's true.
I'm with you on that one. 100%.
>God raised Jesus from the grave and He spent some 40 days, I think, walking among the living here. We might be considered Jesus offspring since we are born of God's Spirit though His blood.
That's good. I can definitely see that interpretation. Which is why I enjoy these discussions so much. I'm a collector of diverse opinions. ">">">">">">
>Either way Isaiah didn't change the subject in the middle of the story. It may be one of those verses that paints a couple pictures.
That could very well be. I don't think Isaiah would have changed his own story, but if his work was appended at a later date, it wouldn't have been him appending his story. It would have been someone else perhaps updating it to current conditions.
Isaiah is so long it's really hard to get a grip on the full scope. And it doesn't help that he's cryptic sometimes. It's definitely worth a few more readings on my part.
>Be careful, someone might accuse you of making stuff up.
Well that's when it gets really fun, isn't it? It's a whopper read for sure, but I enjoy the dirt and dust of digging through the ore as much as I do finding the nuggets within. I just figure most folks would appreciate hitting the highlights in one or two posts instead of plowing through twenty.
On a side, I've taken up your challenge on Islam posts. I'm about as far from a Muslim as one can get, but I'm re-reading the Koran for the first time in about 25 years. The last time I cracked it open was during a transitional time in my journey from Christianity into Atheism. So I'm kind of excited to see what I get out of it this time.
It reads very much like Psalms or Proverbs. It has about 1% of the history of the Bible (it was written across 23 years vs. 2000 years), with a big, big, focus on helpful maxims for living. Plus, the whole thing was written to be chanted daily to the masses, you know. So that's a peek at some future posts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 4
| visibility 251
|
|
|
50
