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Varsity [123]
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Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 7:52 PM
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21 wins (and counting) is a great feat for a great team. Coach Brownell, the staff, and the players deserve credit. Beating Alabama and UNC on the road was awesome. Whether you hate Brownell or not, what he’s doing now is great.
20+ wins has only been accomplished 17 times (including this year) in program history. Not sure how someone could be so miserable to write off this great season just because they don’t like the coach.
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Game Day Hero [4573]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 7:56 PM
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I actually think this is one of his few good seasons. I just know this is a veteran team and he absolutely had to make the tournament to keep his job. I still don’t want him as our coach for another 5 years. We’ll miss the next three tournaments and then he’ll save his job at in like 2028. Rinse repeat. I’ve seen enough in 14 seasons to know BB isn’t taking this team anywhere but to future mediocre seasons.
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Game Day Hero [4456]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 8:16 PM
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Because of all the Brownell ### lickers annoying the true Clemson fans...
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Commissioner [1228]
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The use of 'tru' fans is such a farce. People can have different opinions and
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Mar 8, 2024, 7:59 AM
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all be great Clemson fans. Not sure what you're self defined bio of a 'true' fan is, but my guess is it is 'wrong.'
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Heisman Winner [78629]
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Tiger Titan [47844]
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Dynasty Maker [3138]
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Athletic Dir [1193]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 7:58 PM
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I think most fans are happy about the season. Most fans are not happy about the constant posts about how great of a coach Brad is. I feel like this is the most complete team we have had in years. I think this team has the talent to make it to at least the sweet 16 unless we get a bad draw or Brad screws it up.
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Varsity [123]
TigerPulse: 80%
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 8:00 PM
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So, is the team winning despite Brad or is Brad one of the reasons the team is winning?
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Orange Phenom [14745]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 11:08 PM
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It has to be some of both obviously.
I think the players genuinely like Brad. That has to help as well.
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Dynasty Maker [3138]
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Tiger Titan [47844]
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Athletic Dir [1193]
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Re: Is this you giving Brad credit for putting together a really good team?
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Mar 7, 2024, 10:24 PM
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Yes I give him all the credit for putting this team together. Sometimes his gameplans or lack there of are headscratchers. Not sure if its him or he just loses control of the team.
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Ring of Honor [21393]
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Orange Blooded [2534]
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Re: Is this you giving Brad credit for putting together a really good team?
Mar 9, 2024, 5:12 PM
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The sarcasm is strong in this one
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Varsity [109]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 9, 2024, 3:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season? ] |
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And what evidence do we have that Brad can coach them to the elite eight? Unless we get a very favorable draw, we are likely out by the second game
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Tiger Spirit [10029]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 8:21 PM
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Bottom line is because we had the amazing football teams in 16 and 18 and won National Championships, some people think every team should go undefeated and win championships. It's the Johnny does it mama, why can't I do it syndrome. From top to bottom, we have great teams and we should absolutely be happy for wins and proud of how our athletes represent Clemson but no school is ever going to win big in every sport every year.
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Paw Master [17406]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 8:53 PM
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Absolutely no one thinks and equating our frustration with Brownell’s endless middling tenure with expecting undefeated seasons is pure stupidity.
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Hall of Famer [8339]
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Paw Warrior [4956]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
Mar 8, 2024, 9:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season? ] |
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No it's not that at all.
It's things like:
The ACC is not the conference in basketball that it was. It no longer has HOF coaches on the sidelines, no more Dean Smith, or Roy Williams, or Coach K, or Jim Boeheim.
The league has expanded, and teams are playing unbalanced schedules that often result in playing the best teams only once (since the historic best teams are NOT in our rivalry pod).
We've seen some historically bad UNC and Duke teams over the last few years, and still lost most of the games to them.
Brownell now has the 2nd-longest tenure as an ACC head coach (Tony Bennett has 1 more year in the league than Brownell does). Two of the 3 teams above us in the ACC standings today have coaches with less than 3 years head coaching experience and who had NEVER been a HC before taking over their teams.
Since Brownell started as HC at Clemson, the ACC regular season championship has been won by North Carolina(6), Miami, Virginia(5), Florida State, and Duke. Clemson has never won the ACC regular season championship under Brownell, whose best finish has been T3, twice in 13 completed seasons. The average finish in those 13 complete seasons is 7th place.
Since Brownell started as HC at Clemson, the ACC Tournament has been won by Duke(4), Miami, FSU, Virginia(2), Notre Dame, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, and been canceled once. Fully half the league has won the ACCT at least once in Brownell's 14 years. Clemson has never even played in the ACCT title game under Brownell. Notre Dame won the ACCT title in their 2nd year as an ACC participant.
Georgia Tech has since fired the HC that took them to the ACCT title. Since Brownell started as HC at Clemson, SCAR made the Final Four once, and has since fired the HC that took them there.
Since Brownell has been HC at Clemson, Clemson has fired 2 baseball coaches for lackluster results. Under one of the fired coaches, Jack Leggett, the had Tigers reached the College World Series six times. As of the end of the 2012 season, he had a career record of 1,224–694–1, with seven conference tournament titles and 23 NCAA tournament appearances. He was named Atlantic Coast Conference Baseball Coach of the year in 1994, 1995 and 2006. In 1994, his team won 57 games, a record for the second most single-season wins in ACC history (behind the record 60 wins set by the 1991 Clemson team). When his team won "only" 32 games, he was fired. The first-year baseball coach won the ACC tournament and took the team to an NCAA regional.
Since Brownell has been HC at Clemson, Clemson has fired 3 women's baseball coaches for lackluster results.
To your point, though, since Brownell has been HC at Clemson, Clemson has won 2 National Championships in football, and played for 2 more titles; made it to the CFP Playoffs 6 times. But Clemson has also won two National Championships in men's soccer during Brownell's tenure. The Tigers first fielded a softball team in the COVID-19 pandemic-shortened 2020 season. In each of their full seasons, the Tigers have made the NCAA Tournament, and reached the Super Regional twice.
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Game Day Hero [4373]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
Mar 7, 2024, 8:31 PM
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Null
Message was edited by: ROYBus10®
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Tiger Spirit [9691]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 8:34 PM
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Appreciate what? Mediocrity? We aren't even ranked in the top 25 with porkchops best team ever
This is nothing to celebrate....14 years of failure
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Varsity [123]
TigerPulse: 80%
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 8:37 PM
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Two 20+ win seasons back to back is mediocre? I get your complaints about Brownell during most of his tenure but recently and right now, he and the team are in a great spot. You cannot fire someone for having two 21+ win seasons back to back.
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Paw Master [17406]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 8:55 PM
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Purnell did 4 straight from years 4-7. It’s year 14 and you’re celebrating a twofer where we might finish 4th in the ACC. Which, by the way, is worse than last year and we’ve lost more conference games.
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Tiger Titan [47844]
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Paw Warrior [4757]
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There are 351 D1 basketball programs
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Mar 7, 2024, 9:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season? ] |
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In order to make the NCAA tournament, taking into account some automatic qualifiers getting some spots, you basically have to be in the Top 10% of all programs.
That's the goal for any program. Be better than 90% of everybody else. That's the measure of success. Brownell has done that. You can argue that this season is a fluke and an outlier in an otherwise history filled with failures. You'd be wrong, but you could argue it.
But for the love of all that is holy, at least stop being miserable long enough to acknowledge the excellence achieved by the 23-24 Men's Basketball program. They've done well and are deserving of all of our support.
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Paw Master [17406]
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Re: There are 351 D1 basketball programs
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Mar 7, 2024, 10:00 PM
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That’s a very misleading misrepresentation of the statistics. The vast majority of the 351 teams come from 1 bid leagues. What you really have is less than 100 legitimate teams (minus those that win their conference tourneys) competing for 36 at large bids. A far cry from your less than 10% projection. What you’re doing is like taking the odds of a Group of Five football team making a bowl game and applying those odds to Power Five teams.
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Paw Warrior [4956]
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Re: There are 351 D1 basketball programs
Mar 8, 2024, 5:43 PM
[ in reply to There are 351 D1 basketball programs ] |
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Brownell does that once in a while. No where close to consistently.
Brownell has 23 win seasons and doesn't make the NCAAT because his teams lose games to NET 300+ teams.
Brownell has teams that lose to NET 250+ teams in the NIT when his team is the #1 seed in the NIT playing at home.
Brownell has teams that blow multiple games where they had double-digit late game leads.
O. Purnell had 4 20+ win seasons in a row, and made the NCAAT 3 times in a row (and left a team the Brownell was able to get to the NCAAT the following year, too).
Purnell got hired away for his success. Brownell is still here...
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110%er [3999]
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Because we have been through this too many times
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Mar 7, 2024, 8:37 PM
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All-TigerNet [6030]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 8:42 PM
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No one hates Brownell. Leave your misinformation behind. There are many that don’t admire his inconsistency of losing winnable games. He is up and then he is down. In 14 years I’ve never witnessed any consistency
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Tiger Titan [47844]
TigerPulse: 77%
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ALL COLLEGE BASKETBALL TEAMS ARE INCONSISTENT.
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Mar 7, 2024, 9:26 PM
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THEY ALL LOSE GAMES THEY SHOULDN’T.
IT’S BASKETBALL.
GOODNESS!
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Paw Master [17406]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: ALL COLLEGE BASKETBALL TEAMS ARE INCONSISTENT.
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Mar 7, 2024, 11:41 PM
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Except I’ve proven that Brad does at one of the highest rates in the ACC - this year, since 2017, and for his tenure. So you are perpetuating a fallacy.
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Clemson Conqueror [11770]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
Mar 7, 2024, 9:11 PM
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True. And next year will be tough unless Brad (or whoever the coach is) does an incredible job in the portal.
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Tiger Titan [47844]
TigerPulse: 77%
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Its sad that we are in the middle of a great season
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Mar 7, 2024, 9:25 PM
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and you can’t help but look ahead to next year to find something to complain about.
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Clemson Conqueror [11770]
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Re: Its sad that we are in the middle of a great season
Mar 7, 2024, 10:47 PM
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Judge. I am not complaining. You are correct about this year. A good Tiger team, one of the best. But it will be a challenge to field a similar squad next year. Sorry if this hurts.
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Clemson Conqueror [11197]
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Why cant we all just get along??
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Mar 7, 2024, 9:18 PM
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Some of us want success to be the norm and not the exception. If CBB had an NCAA team 50-70% of the time, more would be backing him. But once again at the end of the year, CBB loses to the last place team in the ACC just like last yr against Louisville. How does this strike confidence? We have lost to every bottom dweller in the ACC this year. There has to be a time when you expect to make the NCAA and expect to win games you are favored in!!! The story continues to repeat and we will be the same while CBB is the coach.
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Tiger Titan [47844]
TigerPulse: 77%
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Its like you and some of the others here arent watching our team.
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Mar 7, 2024, 9:24 PM
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We are one of the best teams in the ACC this year.
We will be a top 20-25 seed in the NCAA Tournament this year.
Reading some of your posts, it sounds like we are not good. It’s ridiculous.
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Clemson Conqueror [11197]
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Re: Its like you and some of the others here arent watching our team.
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Mar 7, 2024, 9:44 PM
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Never said we are not good. I said I dont want it to be the exception and more of the norm. There is no reason Clemson isnt a top 40-50 team every year and a top 25 team 1 for 3. If we are not an NCAA team 50% of the time, then why not expect to be better.
This is a good team, but they have fell short in some games. To be up by 9 against GT with 2min left and lose, hurts! But we have given a few games away and its a trend not an exception.
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Paw Warrior [4956]
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Varsity [109]
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Re: Why cant we all just get along??
Mar 9, 2024, 3:34 PM
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Well there you have it. And the Hokies weren’t in last place when they beat us either.
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Tiger Titan [47844]
TigerPulse: 77%
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Brad has had 6 of our 17 seasons of 20 or more wins.
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Mar 7, 2024, 9:23 PM
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The other notables:
Bill Foster - 3
Cliff Ellis - 2
Rick Barnes - 1
Larry Shyatt - 1
Oliver Purnell - 4
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Paw Master [17406]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Brad has had 6 of our 17 seasons of 20 or more wins.
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Mar 7, 2024, 10:13 PM
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Thanks. You can now see why this is so insufficient for our longest tenured coach:
Purnell 57.1%
Brownell 42.8%
Foster 33%
Barnes 25%
Ellis 20%
Shyatt 20%
If we’re being honest you would admit that Foster is as or more impressive than anyone else considering he coaches pre-64 team tournament. But what’s really damning is that Brownell can’t, after receiving so many of the improvements you have claimed the program lacked during Purnell’s tenure, trails him so badly in this category. And Brownell inherited a program on much better footing that would soon expand to play a less competitive conference schedule. He has numerous advantages yet still doesn’t equal Purnell, who you have portrayed as a fairly mediocre coach. What does that say about Brad?
Btw - if we were to adjust this is any way for SOS it only gets worse.
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All-TigerNet [6090]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 7, 2024, 9:31 PM
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I for one do appreciate the success of our basketball team, and other sports as well. We old timers look at Clemson sports from a different perspective compared to younger fans. Understandably.
We remember the days of yore when a 10 win basketball season was considered special. Many years we were in single digits and were the doormats of the ACC. Then came Tates Locke, Tree Rollins, Skip Wise, Stan Rome, Greg Coles, Van Gregg, and the rest in the 70’s. Suddenly, we were challenging for the conference title. In fact, in my senior year, we played at Maryland in the final game of the 1975 season. Winner would be conference champion. We lost 70-64. We beat Duke in the opening round of the ACCT, then lost a close one to UNC. Exciting times!
In football, we won the inaugural Bluebonnet Bowl in 1959, but then we suffered through season after season of football drought never going to another bowl game for almost 20 years. Finally we had an undefeated home season in 1974. We beat Georgia and Georgia Tech that year, then destroyed UNC but they got a bowl bid over us. Just another reason to hate them.
I remember celebrating our success with friends that year on Johnstone D5 and I made the comment that maybe we can win the national championship one day. I was roundly mocked (you know who you were).
The next year, expectations were high. But we suffered through a 2-9 season. Still, Clemson led the ACC in attendance. I was in graduate school at UT Knoxville but drove to every home game myself.
Younger fans have mostly seen the recent success. I understand why it would be disappointing when we only win 9 or 10 games in football and have only won the conference championship once in the last three years when they have been used to so much more. Or when we win 21 games and counting in basketball but could have won a few more.
But for an old timer like me, who has seen darker days, it’s hard to get too upset. I have just learned to enjoy what we have and certainly hope for even more.
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Paw Warrior [4956]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
Mar 8, 2024, 5:50 PM
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"We remember the days of yore when a 10 win basketball season was considered special"
That was back when we had 8 or 9 teams in the ACC, played everybody twice (home-home vs UNC, home-home vs Duke...) in 14 or 16 game ACC seasons.
Now we play 20 ACC games in a season, with unbalanced schedules that often has us playing UNC and Duke only once, and an ACC that no longer has Dean Smith, Roy Williams (or Gary Willims for that matter), Coach K, or Jim Boeheim coaching. An ACC where Brownell is the 2nd-longest active coach (in ACC tenure).
Brownell has never won an ACC regular season. Brownell has never won an ACCT title. Brownell has never PLAYED for an ACCT title. Brownell has never finished higher than T3rd in ACC.
This is Brownell's "best team ever" and will finish with fewer wins and a lower seed than last year's team. But will almost certainly make the NCAA and thereby avoid the embarrassment that comes with losing a home NIT game in the first round.
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All-TigerNet [6090]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
Mar 8, 2024, 6:42 PM
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Just to be clear, I’m not praising or criticizing anyone or any team. My point is that older fans see things from a different perspective than younger fans of Clemson.
No one hates to lose more than I do. In my younger days, I’ve been tossed out of more than one gym and off more than one baseball field because of my “passion.” I’ve just learned not to have a stroke when we lose a basketball game, or have a bad inning in softball/baseball. I’ve seen worse.
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Paw Warrior [4956]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
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Mar 8, 2024, 8:39 AM
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Oliver Purnell had 4 20+ wins in a row in his 7 years (preceded by a 19-win season), and then took another job.
Brownell managed to get 4 20+ win seasons in his first 9 years, even strung 2-in-row there in seasons 8 and 9, but follow that "streak" up with 3 very middling years that were barely winning seasons (16-15, 17-16, and COVID-shortened 16-8).
I'm happy we're in good position this year. Had we not lost in stupid fashion to Ga Tech and ND, and had not blown double digit late game leads several times, it would have been a fantastic regular season.
But I have very little faith that it reflects a real positive trend.
After 14 years, I can give Brownell credit: we don't completely suck every year anymore, a middle-of-the pack finish is pretty regular (although too often at the lower end of the middle, like 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th place, but that's better than 14th or 15th). And occasional flashes of good play gets a 3rd or 4th place finish in the ACC.
I think that 14 years of what Brownell has shown is that "this is as good as it gets". He's had ample opportunity to raise the program over the hump and has not. I thank him for what he's done, but think Clemson can do better.
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Hall of Famer [8339]
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The ACC is a trash conference this (and last) year.
Mar 8, 2024, 9:00 AM
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And we STILL arnt even ranked. The league has 2, TWO ranked teams. PATHETIC!
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All-American [599]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
Mar 8, 2024, 10:05 PM
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The problem for me is framing. You used “great” in your post multiple times. In the context of Clemson MBB, that is probably warranted. But having a similar season for Football, Soccer, even Baseball and you would not use that word. Top 20 is not “great” to me and I have a hard time celebrating the participation trophies.
IMO, we need to shatter this stigma of poor-to-middle-of-the-pack basketball. Even the stated goal of Neff to make the tournament is disappointing. That is roughly top-50. Why is best not the standard? We aren’t there, and really have never been close historically, but if you don’t aim high, you will never get there.
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Varsity [105]
TigerPulse: 83%
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
Mar 9, 2024, 8:42 AM
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People are delusional if they think we can do better than Brad. Other than Barnes he’s the best coach in Tiger basketball history. Look around the ACC, Clemson is doing just fine relative to support for the program
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Orange Blooded [2252]
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
Mar 9, 2024, 9:48 AM
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Coach Brownell has put together probably his best team. So there is no excuse not to making it past the first round of theNCAA Tournament. The thing that has irritated me the last several years is some of his in game coaching especially in close games.
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Dynasty Maker [3138]
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The Lunatic Fringe Never Fails To Deliver
Mar 9, 2024, 12:45 PM
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Always trying to find something wrong with Clemson basketball. It is getting more difficult by the day. And they are starting to break out in hives thinking about Coach BroWnell getting a contract extension. Go sniff football jocks. That's the only thing you understand.
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TigerNet Legend [147199]
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100%
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Mar 9, 2024, 12:54 PM
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Add to that the fact that we are in the “Others receiving votes” category of two polls, and I think the writing is on the wall, this is a great team led by a good coach.
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Legend [6896]
TigerPulse: 99%
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100% - ok, if you do not support this post, then you are not necessarily a lunat
1
Mar 9, 2024, 1:03 PM
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TICK, but you are a negative thinking "fan" spreading your toxicity among many others. The Coots love you!
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Paw Master [17406]
TigerPulse: 100%
51
Posts: 11197
Joined: 2007
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Re: 100% - ok, if you do not support this post, then you are not necessarily a lunat
Mar 11, 2024, 10:03 PM
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@ttigeron®
In year 2 under Lamonte Paris, the coots just finished with a final AP ranking of 15th. That’s better than Brownell, who is supposedly so well thought of by the same sports media figures that vote in polls, has managed in 14 seasons. That is pathetic and has nothing to do with anyone’s negative thinking. But our inability to do better is directly related to the unwillingness of folks like yourself to call for a change.
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Varsity [101]
TigerPulse: 93%
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Their accomplishments are appreciated.
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Mar 9, 2024, 1:15 PM
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A Sweet 16 banner would be even more appreciated.
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Paw Master [17309]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Why cant we just appreciate our MBB season?
Mar 9, 2024, 3:35 PM
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It was a great season for our men’s basketball team. Clemson had some big time victories this season. Congrats Coach Brownell, players and fans. Successful season !
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