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All-TigerNet [12666]
TigerPulse: 86%
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Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 3:55 PM
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1. Do you love Clemson University more than you love Ben Tillman?
2. Is being associated with Ben Tillman's name in any way shape or form good for Clemson or bad for Clemson in 2015?
3. Is his association doing more harm than good?
The more I read about Ben Tillman, the more embarrassed I become that he had anything to do with our university. I really hope the powers that be change the name of Tillman Hall. I don't care about Mr. Tillman, or his soul. I care about the university I love. Mr. Tillman made his choices from a position in which he had all the advantages. He could have done a lot more good for the world than he did. He chose to do evil things. His legacy was ruined by his doings, not anyone else's. Please don't make excuses for him by saying it was all about the times that he lived in. The Ten Commandments had been handed down long before Mr. Tillman drew his first breath, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is kind of a biggie. Not to mention the "golden Rule" of, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Clemson needs to disassociate completely form any visible connection to this man, particularly anything that honors him.
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Orange Immortal [67583]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2001
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I said it before and I will say it again....
Jan 15, 2015, 4:03 PM
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The name on the building was not indtended to nor does it honor Tillman's political views.
The building bears his name because without his efforts to lobby the South Carolina General Assembly to create a school as an agricultural institution for the state, there would be no Clemson University.
If you were to research it, I suspect you would find that the founding members of many colleges and universities throughout the country have some sort of racist history. Take the University of South Carolina as just one example. Rutledge College, DeSaussure College and McCutchen House all of whihc are located in USC's Horseshoe, are all named after people who strongly supported the protection of slavery. The McCutchen House even housed salves.
Some other schools like Brown, Emory, Yale and Harvard benefited greatly from their relationship with salvery and were built by the manual labor of slaves and with money made from the salve trade. Are similar name changes to be made at those schools as well?
It’s not the name on the outside of a building that negatively affects the attitudes of the students inside.
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Legend [6649]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Any chance USC has a building named after OJ Simpson?***
Jan 15, 2015, 4:16 PM
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Ring of Honor [22971]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Hey man, OJ did a lot of great things too
Jan 15, 2015, 4:20 PM
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Nobody's perfect!
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All-Time Great [97822]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Yeah, he proved there are still Americans that believe that
Jan 19, 2015, 11:25 AM
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DNA is a hip hop artist.
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Head Coach [909]
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Freshman [8]
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Re: No but the Fighting Gamecock where they derived their
Jan 15, 2015, 7:02 PM
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So did Thomas Green Clemson and his father-in-law, John C. Calhoun.
Gotta do better than that.
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110%er [3889]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Hey Coot
Jan 15, 2015, 7:48 PM
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Virtually every wealthy landowner owned slaves in SC. You know the wealthy graduates of SCC.
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Freshman [8]
TigerPulse: 19%
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Re: No but the Fighting Gamecock where they derived their
Jan 15, 2015, 10:17 PM
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Pathetic is your continued ignorance to reality. I'm proud of my school and it's time we move into the 21st century. Looks like your default mode is to accuse everyone who doesn't agree with your position of being a coot. How lame.
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Clemson Icon [27619]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2003
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Re: I said it before and I will say it again....
Jan 15, 2015, 4:22 PM
[ in reply to I said it before and I will say it again.... ] |
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I wonder if the powers that be are considering changing the name of Yale to something less evil???
Get a life. We live in a new world.
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CU Guru [1898]
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Rival Killer [2802]
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Yes, everyone understands that, but in spite of the fact
Jan 16, 2015, 4:19 PM
[ in reply to I said it before and I will say it again.... ] |
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that Hitler was actually a pretty competent amateur ornithologist, naming the aviary after him would create some SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS for anyone stupid enough to do it. "Oh, we're not honoring the part of him that killed 7 million Jews. We're just thrilled that he helped establish the land for the aviary."
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Associate AD [1001]
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Re: Yes, everyone understands that, but in spite of the fact
Jan 16, 2015, 10:13 PM
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Not even close! What hitler did was not accepted hence WWII.
Come on now, if they named a building after Hitler decades ago it would have been with the knowledge that what he did was wrong. No one outside and even inside Germany (especially at the end of the war) would have supported or named anything after him.
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Orange Blooded [2243]
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Re: Yes, everyone understands that, but in spite of the fact
Jan 18, 2015, 9:07 PM
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Are you ####### telling me that the people of 1947, who chose to name the building after Ben Tillman, didn't know that killing black people in a ceremonial fashion was wrong?
Are you trying to sell me a bag of #### that the majority of non-evil people in 1880 thought killing black people was right?
Re-evaluate everything about yourself. As soon as possible.
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Orange Blooded [4444]
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CU Guru [1270]
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Might As Well change it to the Clempson Taters Hall :)
Jan 18, 2015, 10:04 PM
[ in reply to I said it before and I will say it again.... ] |
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If you Check-out the Gamecock "FGF" Board they are having a field day with this since they got so many De-Cooting this year. It almost looks like they are trying to sway a Recruit or Recruits to steer away from Clemson because of this. But we are fighting amonst ourselves also. Just remember every day People are getting killed in the name of Religion. Politics will always have more than one side and many viewpoints but none will ever be totally agreed upon. Mixing our Athletics Department with these Political Positions should not be connected whatsoever.
GO TIGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Orange Phenom [14410]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Might As Well change it to the Clempson Taters Hall :)
Jan 19, 2015, 1:08 PM
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They need to learn the true history of their school before they worry about Clemson or ANY other southern University.
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Game Changer [1989]
TigerPulse: 95%
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Totally Agree.
Jan 19, 2015, 2:58 PM
[ in reply to I said it before and I will say it again.... ] |
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Those who cry "Appease, appease" will soon be slaves to those they try to please.
Maybe we can get the ghost of Neville Chamberlain to be the next Clemson President.
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CU Guru [1512]
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Re: I said it before and I will say it again....
Jan 22, 2015, 11:27 AM
[ in reply to I said it before and I will say it again.... ] |
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BigCU: Fine post. If we are going to be held hostage by these minority groups for things that happened decades and scores of years ago, why not start turning the situation around!
Can someone explain to me why I'm called an American and blacks are called African Americans? That is an insult to me and I resent it. You're either an American or an African.
My point is that this politically correct crap has gone far enough and it's time to hold firm and stay the course. Of course slavery was awful and atrocious but the fact remains that it was 150 years ago! We've made great progress in this country to ensure equal opportunities for all. If ANY group does not like what has been done, they are always free to leave and go someplace else!
As for me, I'm here, will stay here so I can see the 2015 Tigers sweep the table!!!
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Clemson Icon [27619]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 4:03 PM
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Can't remember the names of the people he killed, Inform me.
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Hall of Famer [8712]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 4:10 PM
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I have mixed emotions on this issue, so I decline to comment. But for my own introspect, I consider things like the following statement ...
Spoken in 1971 -
"With a lot of blacks, there's quite a bit of resentment along with their dissent, and possibly rightfully so. But we can't all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don't believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people."
- By John Wayne
Yet if you fly into Orange County, CA, you might enter a place called John Wayne Airport.
I feel embarrased by Tillman's character also. But I have no idea how things like this should be resolved.
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Dynasty Maker [3433]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 4:14 PM
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I think the difference is Tillman lead a group of men which targeted & killed groups of black men. It's far different than some bad comments or even slave ownership.
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Orange Elite [5486]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 4:18 PM
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Or ovverated acting
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Hall of Famer [8712]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 4:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman ] |
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Agreed - I just find comments like that in the year 1971 absolutely absurd - almost as absurd as Lynch mobs 100 years earlier. It's all disgraceful.
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All-American [596]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 4:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman ] |
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So there are different types of racists? One that kills black men is more of a racist than one that makes racist comments or owns slaves. A racist is a racist and we do not need it in our society.
Message was edited by: Chakae®
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Dynasty Maker [3433]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 4:43 PM
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That wasn't what I was saying at all...I'm talking about a murderer.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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I'm sure slave owners gave their property the best care
Jan 15, 2015, 4:48 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman ] |
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possible. The fact is quite a few slaves died from overwork, lack of food, exposure/disease, lack of education etc. So no, there isn't much difference.
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Dynasty Maker [3433]
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Re: I'm sure slave owners gave their property the best care
Jan 15, 2015, 7:39 PM
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Oh for sure, I'm not excusing the act. The slave trade was absolutely terrible. The problem is for a long time, it was an accepted part of society, which is why I believe it's generally skirted when talking about our history.
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Orange Elite [5486]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 4:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman ] |
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The person's actions are overshadowed because of time period here..
Would you go check out a book at Duncan Proctor Memorial Library or go see a sporting even at Jeffrey Dahmer Memorial Colissuem
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 4:34 PM
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1) Never met the guy. So yeah, I'd say there are lots of things I love more than Ben Tillman (except maybe his curse)
2) Neither. The majority of the world doesn't know who any building is named after even when they walk into it.
3) His association meaning, the founding of Clemson College? You mean that association. Yeah, I'd say that was pretty good.
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All-American [595]
TigerPulse: 41%
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Mouth Running from Obama supporters
Jan 15, 2015, 4:52 PM
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He founded the University
What the heck have you ever founded? When you have a legacy, let us know
Then you can run that mouth.
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Rival Killer [2764]
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Re: Mouth Running from Obama supporters
Jan 15, 2015, 4:56 PM
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But you are running your mouth. So where is your pedigree if that is the criteria you live by?
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110%er [4075]
TigerPulse: 95%
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Re: Mouth Running from Obama supporters
Jan 15, 2015, 4:58 PM
[ in reply to Mouth Running from Obama supporters ] |
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What the hell are you talking about? Might want to mosey on back over to the children's table. Someone will be along to explain things to you shortly.
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All-TigerNet [12666]
TigerPulse: 86%
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Joined: 2011
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I have never founded a university. But I have also never
Jan 15, 2015, 6:05 PM
[ in reply to Mouth Running from Obama supporters ] |
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killed anyone, used huge financial standing to go into politics and grandstand to make difficult lives even more difficult and close to impossible. I have never used terrorist tactics to keep people in their so-called place.
How many universities have you founded? So anyone that starts a university gets a free pass?
As for my legacy, you don't know me and you don't know the things I do on an everyday basis to help change people's lives for the better. I can honestly say that I have personally helped many hundreds of students get accepted into colleges of their choice by volunteering to help with the paperwork at my local Title I high school. Many of them would not have bothered. I have helped a mother, her brother and her two children obtain U-Visas because their father was robbed and killed in a parking lot robbery here in Atlanta. The U-Visa allowed them to stay together and pursue the dream their father had for them here in the states. I helped another young man get a permanent resident card by navigating the immigration process and obtaining an attorney. I have helped many immigrant students get their deferred action paperwork completed and sent a letter of reference to help them. I would never mention these things, but you aren't going to sit there and say I have no legacy when you don't know what I have done. These are life-changing things that I do on an everyday basis. These were volunteer acts, no pay.
I am a white man born in South Carolina in 1963. I am glad things were beginning to change by the time I was born. Call me a liberal and you'd be right. Call me an Obama supporter and you'd be right. Say I've never done anything and have no legacy and you are dead wrong. People all around have people that depend on them and are counting on them in everyday life. They are not just political blowhards that were born with silver spoons in their mouths and then grandstand to make outrageous speeches and policy.
What is your legacy?
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Head Coach [961]
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Re: I have never founded a university. But I have also never
Jan 22, 2015, 8:29 AM
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Preach it. Bout time white Southern liberals had some fire in their bellies.
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Commissioner [923]
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I agree.
Jan 15, 2015, 4:55 PM
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Thanks for your post.
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Orange Blooded [2582]
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you don't get it. By taking the arguments seriously you miss
Jan 15, 2015, 4:59 PM
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the point. The complainers of such things are never satisfied and will not stop and changing names is not the point. They are simply establishing their position to ##### and get people to prostrate themselves before the PC gods.
Tell them to shut up and after a while they will go away. If the name Tillman on the building hasn't harmed Clemson since 1887, it won't harm it now.
Giving such people any satisfaction will do more harm in the long run.
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Freshman [8]
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Re: you don't get it. By taking the arguments seriously you miss
Jan 15, 2015, 7:06 PM
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Tillman Hall was named Tillman Hall in the 1940's. It used to be call Main Building.
Did any of you people actually attend Clemson??????
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MVP [503]
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Based on your pulse I'd venture to guess you didn't
Jan 15, 2015, 8:10 PM
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But I kind of get where he is going. Things like this turn into a slippery slope REALLY fast. First it will be Tillman Hall, then something else. I just see this turning into the proverbial "give a mouse a cookie" scenario.
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Freshman [8]
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Re: Based on your pulse I'd venture to guess you didn't
Jan 15, 2015, 10:21 PM
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I did. Twice (undergraduate and graduate). Ben Tillman was a bad guy and if it makes some of our alumni and students uncomfortable (as well as our recruits), then we ought to do something about it. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
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MVP [503]
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I can see that point of view
Jan 15, 2015, 10:58 PM
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But, in all seriousness, this knowledge has been known for YEARS, why is it suddenly such a huge deal?
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Orange Elite [5234]
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I must admit, I had no idea about Tillman's history
Jan 15, 2015, 11:04 PM
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I graduated in '86 and never really looked into this stuff. If nothing else, this situation has enlightened me.
All that said, I still say that no action should be taken while all of this push is in play. Just say no.
After everyone has forgotten and things are no longer about this, then change the name(s). The issue right now is not to reward force. But anyone who is honest with themselves can't defend Tillman.
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Dynasty Maker [3433]
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Re: I must admit, I had no idea about Tillman's history
Jan 16, 2015, 11:22 AM
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This is an extremely fair assessment.
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Freshman [8]
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Re: I can see that point of view
Jan 16, 2015, 11:19 AM
[ in reply to I can see that point of view ] |
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Because of social media, mainstream media, Ferguson, etc. let's just take it off of the table. Everyone said by acquiescencing and moving the confederate flag off the state house dome, the NAACP would keep going. Didn't happen. If we are a University grounded in our elite, white past, then let's just say it. If not, then we need to prove it.
Our black students and minority recruits deserve better.
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MVP [503]
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Re: I can see that point of view
Jan 16, 2015, 1:51 PM
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So they didn't deserve better last year or the year before?
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Freshman [8]
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Re: I can see that point of view
Jan 16, 2015, 9:52 PM
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They've always deserved better. It just takes a catalyst to force folks to make enough noise to cause change. Been that way forever in this country. That will never change.
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110%er [6694]
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Re: I can see that point of view
Jan 16, 2015, 10:09 PM
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So basically what we are teaching the masses today is if you don't like something throw a big temper tantrum until people give in.
As I've said before, if you want progress then stop living in the past, and progress forward.
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Head Coach [961]
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Hall of Famer [8487]
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All-TigerNet [14233]
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MVP [529]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 5:05 PM
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You can't judge a person of 100+ years ago by today's standards.
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Orange Phenom [14410]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 5:08 PM
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This ^^^
Sucks by TODAYS standards but that view was pretty common place in that time.
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Game Changer [2075]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 7:20 PM
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If you judges evrything by the standards in the past we would have to tear down the Washington and Jefferson memorials. Lincol,s name would be removed because he was anti-slavery but repeatedly said blacks were not equal to whites. Where does all this stop?
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Orange Elite [5151]
TigerPulse: 42%
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In some the good outweighs the bad
Jan 15, 2015, 7:34 PM
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No one with a straight face could argue the good in Tillman outweighed the bad.
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Orange Blooded [2582]
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I will. The good is he was instrumental in starting a land
Jan 19, 2015, 12:34 PM
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grant Universities that are still doing well today.
His bad attributes and desires haven't held up.
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Rival Killer [2764]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 5:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman ] |
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I get what you are saying but that is the thing about absolute moral standards (which sadly many do not believe in), they are absolute and timeless, so one should be able to evaluate someone's actions/inactions objectively regardless of when something happens. You certainly can emphathize with the effect of the "pressures" or "temptations" of the specific historical circumstances, nevertheless the behavior is what it is.
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110%er [4075]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 5:16 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman ] |
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I know the argument...but I'm pretty sure murder was murder back then too. Now I guess we could ask ol' Ben if he was sorry but I would guess he's got other burning issues on his mind right now...if you know what I mean.
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Orange Elite [5486]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 5:20 PM
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No murder wasnt murder back then...They were black so his actions cant be judged today
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110%er [4075]
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 5:27 PM
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Oh, that's right...please pardon my ignorance.
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All-TigerNet [12666]
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Joined: 2011
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Orange Elite [5234]
TigerPulse: 92%
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none of this matters... You NEVER
Jan 15, 2015, 8:10 PM
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Give into terrorist demands!
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Starter [365]
TigerPulse: 83%
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Re: Ask yourself some honest questions about Tillman
Jan 15, 2015, 8:35 PM
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Been reading this Crap!
Still have not seen him Stand Up!
That old Man sitting in front of Tillman.
(Got Lucky by the Cannons one night)
Told when a Virgin passes!
Thinking most Post are from People that just only Drive by or On there way
Out the door! ### Holes have Opions
but few have Degrees !
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Orange Beast [6511]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Let's change the school name as well. Clemson was also
Jan 16, 2015, 10:10 PM
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A racist
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110%er [5713]
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Shall we then remove Andrew Jackson from the twenty......
Jan 18, 2015, 9:43 PM
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dollar bill because of the way he treated American Indians?
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Solid Orange [1319]
TigerPulse: 92%
28
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and what would that solve!
Jan 18, 2015, 9:54 PM
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Your dumb ### would still keep posting "the more I read about Ben Tillman... blah blah... we need to erase the history books"
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Hall of Famer [8487]
TigerPulse: 100%
43
Posts: 11296
Joined: 2011
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Let's change the name to Pat Tillman Hall, and then drop
Jan 19, 2015, 11:52 AM
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the "Pat", just like most of use have dropped the "Ben".
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Orange Blooded [3508]
TigerPulse: 100%
34
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I wonder when the coots will take down the statue in honor
Jan 19, 2015, 1:27 PM
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Ben Tillman on the USuCk campus? The majority of coot fans are bandwagon anyway, and became fans 5 years ago, and are too stupid to realize it's there. I find it hilarious that they are having a field day over this when their own house is dirtier. The Horseshoe has more ties to slavery than many buildings in the modern South. lol.
I agree that in principal the name should stay the same, but the nation wide optics are bad no matter how you look at it. We can debate it all day, but the bottom line is...it just looks bad for the university. Everyone knows it's being spun into something it's not, and it will only get worse the longer the debate continues. That's the reality of PC America. I want what's best for Clemson University....bottom line.
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All-In [10590]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Did you seek a name change when you were there in 81 to 85?***
Jan 22, 2015, 8:46 AM
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All-TigerNet [12666]
TigerPulse: 86%
47
Posts: 12291
Joined: 2011
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I didn't know anything about Ben Tillman at that time. I
Jan 22, 2015, 12:13 PM
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really never had cause to go in that building but a couple of times during my entire four years. I went in once to see Ted Turner give a lecture (one of the worst speakers I have ever listened to) and once to attend a Miss Clemson University Pageant.
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