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Replies: 29
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Scout Team [171]
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Tiger Basketball
Feb 24, 2016, 5:26 PM
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Just my opinion.
The problem here is not coaching, Brad Brownell is a fine coach. I would say very good.
The problem lies in recruiting.
1. South Carolina is not a great state for recruiting basketball players.
a.There are 200 high schools in SC, of which produce a minuscule number of ACC caliber players on any given year that can enter college.
b.With that being said, those players traditionally have chosen higher profile programs with a greater chance of professional careers.(How may Mr. Basketballs have ever enrolled in-state)
c. SC is not going to change anytime soon. High school athletics in this state are run by football, folks. Football Coaches become head coaches, AD's , principals, then Superintendents.
d. When we go out of state, how do we stack up against flag ship universities?
e. When we go head to head with UNC, Duke, Virginia, Miami, Louisville, ND, Syracuse, Pitt.... we ain't winning that battle if they really want a player. Check the results.
We are not going to beat top ACC programs, with any consistency, with players that the top tier schools in the league don't want. Come on, you think Dabo would have done what he's been able to do without the likes of DW4 and the other great players he's pulled in? That's a whole other topic, though.
Historically, Clemson has not made the equal commitment to basketball that it has to football, bottom line. Lesser programs get to the NCAA Tournament because they are in lesser leagues. Money is an issue.
Some people equate recruiting and coaching as the same, it is not.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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how can you make that argument when you have
Feb 24, 2016, 5:28 PM
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both the Rick Barnes era and the OP era staring you in the face?
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Commissioner [991]
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that they lucked out on a good class & then got out of town
Feb 26, 2016, 8:47 AM
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as fast as they could? Maybe the problem isn't the coaches...other than Shyatt of course.
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Commissioner [991]
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Its the same argument that Wake football fans can make
Feb 26, 2016, 9:13 AM
[ in reply to how can you make that argument when you have ] |
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I guess they should have your expectations for football year in and year out based on a couple of years of success: OUTLIERS, such as our outliers for basketball.
If you want a true change, quit spouting your petty argument on two coaches who had minimal success and both of whom bolted for somewhere else. You need to focus on building a sustainable program, which takes time, money, support in order to build something that will last. Build something that when you find a coach who has success will want to stay here. Go do some research and find out why Barnes and Purnell left...this isn't an easy job, and the lack of support from fans and administration make it unsustainable.
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: Tiger Basketball
Feb 24, 2016, 5:28 PM
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When a team can beat top 20 teams and then lose to some of the teams we lose to.
Yea there is some problems with coaching
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Legend [17380]
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Mostly accurate - Recruiting is the "biggest" issue but...
Feb 24, 2016, 5:47 PM
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CBB's coaching has shown mixed results. At times, well coached and disciplined and at others, major mental lapses. At times good player development and then not so much. At times good game adjustments and then some head scratchers. At times, good team chemistry and morale - then lots of transfers and uninspired play.
CBB is an enigma.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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i really have a hard time getting behind this argument
Feb 24, 2016, 5:58 PM
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I do see it's merits... but then I look at what OP and Barnes did, and I struggle with it.
I get we are not going to recruit with the upper echelon of this conference... but both Barnes and OP showed that you don't have to in order to be very good here...
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Legend [17380]
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Both Barnes and Purnell had less than .500 ACC records ...
Feb 24, 2016, 6:08 PM
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And for the most part cashed in on weak OOC schedules. Each had only 1 to 2 good recruiting years so hard to say either proved anything regrading basketball recruiting at Clemson. In fact, their ACC records indicate Clemson's talent gapped compared to the upper echelon of the ACC.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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what are we measuring?
Feb 24, 2016, 6:42 PM
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over OP's last 3 years, he won more ACC games than any other team not in blue...
He got us to 3 straight NCAAT
He got us to an ACCT championship game
Barnes took us to a #2 ranking and the dance
How can you look at the unbalanced schedules in the ACC that BB has benefited from and say that he has done more?
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Legend [17380]
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ACC winning percentages. At no point was CBB used ...
Feb 24, 2016, 8:15 PM
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In my discussion other than to say he needed to recruit better talent. In fact, this was mentioned in numerous threads over the last few days. The original poster in this thread said basketball recruiting was hard at Clemson. I agree - but it should not be an excuse for any coach.
Admittedly the "recruiting" for a few years was better under OP and Barnes. My point is that their ACC record stil indicated a gap to the elite teams regarding recruiting. Barnes and OP had modest and relatively short success at Clemson. Their records do not really prove much to me regarding long term, successful basketball recruiting at Clemson.
It appears that you believe their success, albeit limited, proves that recruiting elite basketball talent to Clemson can be done. We disagree. I saw better teams in terms of talent but not elite nor sustained.
A question - What Does Paul Johnson's and Ga Tech's 2014 record mean or prove regarding their recruiting?
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I do not think elite talent can be recruited to Clemson...
Feb 24, 2016, 8:18 PM
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so we do agree on that...
I also agree that recruiting is not an excuse...
my point is that OP and Barnes were both able to recruit to what they wanted, and get results. BB has not been able to do that. That's a big difference.
I'm under no illusion that elite talent will come to Clemson... but I do think you can be successful.
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Legend [17380]
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Consider this, if we get back to recruiting at OPs and ...
Feb 24, 2016, 8:36 PM
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Barnes' level as a first step. AND have a high energy coach with a dream, plan and brand ..... Yes a salesman who can also coach basketball, and show some moderate success like making the NCaAs. Then why not start bringing in a few elite recruits? Why not be a top 25 team ???
You build it, the fans will come.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I am completely in agreement with that
Feb 24, 2016, 8:41 PM
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I like BB. I think he's a true Indiana bball guy in everything he does, down to even his motion...
but I don't think he can recruit for that here... maybe he'll prove me wrong if he gets more time
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Legend [16275]
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OP and BB can both thank Demontez Stitt for those 4 NCAA
Feb 26, 2016, 1:08 AM
[ in reply to what are we measuring? ] |
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tourney appearances. He started coming on late his freshman season and never stopped - a dynamic point guard that could control a game and lead a team.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Tiger Basketball
Feb 24, 2016, 5:51 PM
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Either way recruiting is part of the job and the talent level has dropped off significantly between OP's last year and today....
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Legend [17380]
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Point***
Feb 24, 2016, 5:55 PM
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CU Guru [1806]
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The last heralded in state recruit was Milton Jennings...
Feb 24, 2016, 5:56 PM
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a McDonald's All-American. Before that, Trevor Booker was the last big player coming in from this state.
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110%er [5977]
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Re: Tiger Basketball
Feb 24, 2016, 7:30 PM
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You hit the nail on the head Brad Brownell is a good coach, but an awful recruiter. When OP was at Clemson we got the top players in the state of South Carolina, Brad Brownell doesn't get any of them. This year there were 4 in state kids that were 4 star, Brad Brownell got zero of them, and they could all get into Clemson, 1 went to USC, 1 to VCU, 1 to Yale, and 1 to UNC. Brad spent 3 years recruiting the kid who went to VCU and their coach had only been recruiting him about 3 months. You are correct the state doesn't produce a lot of basketball talent, but he does produce enough if you get them and Atlanta is only 1 and half hours from Clemson and they produce 15 to 20 kids a year. Most of the kids aren't at school in the inner city they are playing at very good suburban schools, the same ones that send football players to Clemson.
Clemson will not win on the same players that UNC, Duke, and Louisville is recruiting and we aren't even attempting to recruit those players under Brad Brownell. That being said we should be able to recruit at the same level as Miami, FSU, VaTech, and South Carolina, but we aren't. A basketball coach who is going to be successful should be able to build a team in 3 to 4 years, because of the small roster and the fact one or two good players can make a team. Clemson can keep Brownell for another year or two or they can go ahead and do now what will need to be done in a year or two. I say go ahead and do now what needs to be done and go get Gregg Marshall. Give Marshall everything he ask for and let him go win games.
Those who Clemson can't win, are in one of two camp; camp one they are single focused fans who only want Clemson to spend money on football, camp two Clemson just can't win in the ACC, because Clemson is a rural school. Clemson needs to be successful in basketball it will help with the overall revenue for the athletic program. Clemson is way behind in what it receives from school companies for wearing their product and broadcast companies for broadcasts rights for radio and coaches shows, this isn't because of football, it's basketball. If you don't believe this just look up the contracts that others schools have for this and compare them to Clemson it's a huge difference, and schools like South Carolina, UNC, UVA, UGA, FSU, and Tenn get much larger contracts than Clemson.
High school talent for football and basketball in South Carolina, this state has been very down in football the last two years in football and will be again this year, Clemson will only offer at most 5 instate kids for football and will only take two of them, because they will get better players out of state. Basketball in South Carolina the last three years has been very good, look at South Carolina
s roster. Also they're kids that are playing or will be playing for schools like UNC (2), Texas (1), VCU (1), and South Carolina that could start at Clemson.
Clemson now has everything they need to be successful in basketball, but a coach who can go get players, and basketball like every sports is about the players, the team with the best players wins 9 out of 10 times. Clemson is a top 20 public school, it is a beautiful campus with great students, staff, and faculty. Clemson students are the happiest students in the country, Clemson has a great system in place for athletes to be successful on and off the court. Clemson is no longer and isolated rural school. Most elite high school kids go to very exclusive private schools or suburban schools in very nice areas, no longer are these going to run down inner city schools. Clemson has everything these kids are use to having and what Clemson doesn't have is only a short drive away.
Clemson can win with the right coach and that is a proven fact. If Iowa State can win in basketball so can Clemson. If West Virginia can win in basketball so can Clemson. If Oregon can win in basketball so can Clemson. If Utah can win in basketball so can Clemson. If South Carolina can win in basketball (that team is built for long term success), then so can Clemson.
With the right coach Clemson can and will win, it's time to go get the right coach and give him what he needs so he will stay.
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Orange Blooded [3744]
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Clemson does not have everything needed to win in hoops
Feb 24, 2016, 7:56 PM
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The most significant thing we are missing is US, the fans. We simply do not support this program. I understand there were plenty that jumped on the bandwagon during the OP and Barnes eras, but you can't even bring a recruit to see a game because you'd be laughed out of the half full gym. There is little to no atmosphere at the old LJ, save a few glorious students. Mostly just some scattered old folks at mid court sitting on their hands.
There is little to no talk of recruiting. Heck we take our potential Tigers to FOOTBALL games to show them the atmosphere. We as Clemson fans need to show our loyalty to the program through dedicated IPTAY donations, fan support even at the Well, but most certainly when the games return to LJ. I', talking vs. UNC or Wofford, no difference, full house. 15-1 or 10-15 no difference, full house. Then and only then will Clemson Basketball be where it should. CBB or no CBB
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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how does that square with the Barnes years or
Feb 24, 2016, 7:57 PM
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OP's last three years?
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Orange Blooded [3744]
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my apologies can't get here very often
Feb 25, 2016, 5:49 PM
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the one word answer is "bandwagoners". Clemson MBB can draw fan support from many if they win consistently. The problem is we need rain or shine MBB fans. Don't have many, have never had many, and I see no indication that we will have many in the future unless we build something sustainable for 10 years or more. That way kids will come to Clemson to a team that has won since they first started watching hoops. Wish I could do more, but Orlando is a long way. Haven't seen an MBB game since our tourney loss to WVU in Tampa
GO TIGERS
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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go ahead and name all the programs who have not
Feb 25, 2016, 5:51 PM
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been to the NCAAT in 5 years that fill their arena each and every home game
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Legend [17380]
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Good post - substantially in agreement. Better, then good ..
Feb 24, 2016, 8:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Tiger Basketball ] |
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and then eventually a few elite recruits will be hard but not impossible to attract.
We need a basketball coach who can sell a dream, motivate to overachiever and build a brand --- and at the same time be a solid coach of basketball skills. Easier said then done LOL.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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IMO... Purnell found a niche here...
Feb 24, 2016, 8:31 PM
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he was able to recruit athletes, and his style was an equalizer. It can be talked around all day, but his last three years we were both conference, and nationally, relevant.
I don't think you have to recruit elite talent here to win. I don't think we are going to be a power year in and year out... However, I do think you can recruit well enough here to compete each year, and be in contention for NCAAT every year.
I think that should be an expectation
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Legend [16171]
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Why did OP leave?***
Feb 25, 2016, 5:57 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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This should be pinned to the top of the board until.....
Feb 25, 2016, 4:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Tiger Basketball ] |
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We make another NCAA Tournament
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Tiger Basketball
Feb 24, 2016, 8:03 PM
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With all due respect to the OP, if you watch this CLEMSON BBall team, then you should be able to see that they are NOT well coached. We would need a lot of blue chippers to equalize that ineffectiveness in the coaching area. Teams should NOT make the mistakes they make by the end of each season. THAT shows lack of good, quality coaching. Teams should be playing their best, whereas this team sputters from start to finish, with runs occasionally to give us hope. It's agonizing.
And at some point, people must realize that CBB is paid a ton of money to put a better product on the floor. If he were in any other business than coaching, he wouldn't have lasted 3 years IMO. If it were YOUR company, would YOU keep paying him these salaries for what he brings???? If you would, then for the love of all things holy, never, ever try to run your own business.
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CU Medallion [58599]
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Clemson is capable of attracting better basketball players.
Feb 24, 2016, 8:35 PM
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I agree with you that recruiting has traditionally been the problem, and that for most of my life, the commitment to our basketball program has been lacking. Agree totally. I do not buy into the notion, however, that we just can't do any better. The only thing Clemson can't offer is a storied basketball tradition; we have or can have everything else needed to attract elite student athletes, including basketball players. It will take time, and it will take a big commitment from the powers that be, and it will take a coach that players believe can win big time, and who they want to play for; but it can be done.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: Clemson is capable of attracting better basketball players.
Feb 24, 2016, 8:54 PM
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ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it can be done
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All-In [44104]
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In-state recruiting doesn't matter as much in basketball.
Feb 26, 2016, 12:50 AM
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I frequently read posts about SC not having good high school basketball. That is a very minor problem.
College basketball recruiting is different from football recruiting. It is more regional, and in some cases, national.
Clemson should focus on the southeast and mid-Atlantic. If we can improve our recruiting, we can build very talented teams by mostly focusing on that region. The hope is that we can eventually go out and get good players from other states too.
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