|
Replies: 32
| visibility 1
|
All-In [44075]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32984
Joined: 2/22/03
|
If we fire Brownell, we better go big with the next hire.
Dec 20, 2015, 12:44 PM
|
|
I agree that we should be doing much better than we have been, and the situation is very frustrating. We can be a football school AND a basketball school, but we have to be "all in" when it comes to supporting basketball as well.
For those of you who want Brownell to be replaced, are you willing to:
-Pay substantially more for a high quality coach? Clemson does not have to be a springboard job as long as we stop paying coaches like it is. We need a former NBA coach or a coach who has been successful at the high major level. He must be a great recruiter who has passion for what he does.
-Maintain our facilities to continually have state-of-the-art buildings? This is what recruits want. It is no coincidence that our football recruiting improved considerably since we invested heavily in facilities. The same can be true for basketball, but we can't view this new arena as a one-time basketball facility investment that doesn't have to be made again for another 10-15 years.
-Invest in quality assistants and support staff. A head coach is only as good as his staff. We must have a qualified staff, and that will ideally include a recruiting coordinator who is only responsible for talent evaluation and recruiting.
-Show up to the games. While the team has to perform well to generate maximum interest, fans also have a responsibility to support the team through thick and thin. Littlejohn needs to consistently be a tough place to play, not jut when we play Duke or UNC.
-Stop being so enamored with being a "football school." It's a childish and simple-minded mentality. This means no more sarcastic comments about how basketball is just a distraction between football and baseball season, or how we shouldn't spend money on basketball because it takes away from football.
If we are committed to the above, I'm all for a change. But if we are going to keep doing what we have always done when it comes to basketball, then I'd rather just keep Brownell.
|
|
|
|
 |
Orange Blooded [2457]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 4246
Joined: 3/12/08
|
Re: If we fire Brownell, we better go big with the next hire.
Dec 20, 2015, 1:03 PM
|
|
Stop with the fan support comments. It has been proven plenty of times that fans show up. OP had 10 sellouts his final year here including scrub teams like Winthrop, SCar, UVA, and BC.
Last year we had one sellout - Syracuse. We couldn't even fill Littlejohn against UNC because Brownell has lost the fanbase.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2896]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 3532
Joined: 1/13/02
|
Win and they will come. Who wants to pay for garbage?***
Dec 20, 2015, 1:06 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4559]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4428
Joined: 7/14/03
|
The fans excuse is a cop out. Weren't the fans there 2 years ago?
Dec 20, 2015, 1:22 PM
|
|
I put Clemson fans up against anybody's in the nation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44075]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32984
Joined: 2/22/03
|
In basketball?!? HAHAHA!!!***
Dec 20, 2015, 1:34 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58527]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46386
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Absolutely. It's not even debatable. When we have good
Dec 20, 2015, 3:38 PM
|
|
teams, fans show up and get crazy. Littlejohn has been a very tough place to play over the years. Many fans now, students in particular, know nothing but disappointment, misery, and mediocrity regarding Clemson basketball. It has taken the life out of the program.
Look at these crowds and tell me our fans won't get behind a basketball team that has a glimmer of hope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpK_7LYM6w8
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1806]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1888
Joined: 1/31/12
|
The last time we had dependable crowds in littlejohn on a
Dec 22, 2015, 12:25 AM
[ in reply to The fans excuse is a cop out. Weren't the fans there 2 years ago? ] |
|
consistent basis, it was under the days of Purnell. Brad's first season continued that momentum, but things quickly changed. I went to nearly every basketball game from 09-10 to 12-13 and by the time I graduated, the fan attendance was near abysmal. My senior year I recall a premier out of conference match up against Arizona where we were at 75% capacity. And Arizona probably brought a couple of hundred fans... enough to hear their chants all the way at courtside.
I used to think the fans were being fickle and needed to give Brad some time to recruit and get his system in place... here we are years later with maybe a handful of guys who would start on other teams in our conference. Our basketball has become very frustrating. The fans are apathetic and rightly so. Why drive to Clemson or Greenville to watch an anemic team put itself in a huge hole against its biggest rival, only to then come back and fall short. Oh, but it's okay because we can beat Presbyterian. Any game of significance on the schedule so far has been a loss. It's pathetic. The complaint used to be scheduling was weak, we have recently scheduled better and lost most significant games. The complaint was that we never had any talent on the team: we still don't, but this is arguably Brownell's most talented squad under his tenure and we are underperforming.
I have not watched a single minute of basketball this year because I gave up. After years of sticking up for Brownell and not missing a moment of hoops action, my sanity cannot take it anymore. I'll tune in next season when we get back into Littlejohn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44075]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32984
Joined: 2/22/03
|
You are living in a fantasy world if you think our fans support basketball.
Dec 20, 2015, 1:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: If we fire Brownell, we better go big with the next hire. ] |
|
We have some committed fans for sure, but there is a reason why we decreased capacity in Littlejohn. MANY fan bases will show up for big conference games - that isn't unique to Clemson. The real litmus test is when we play a non-conference game in December. Do our fans show up? Are they loud?
If TigerNet is any reflection of our overall fan base, we are in huge trouble. We are more concerned with how a high school sophomore's football recruiting visit to another school went than we are with our basketball team's game. We are more emotional about what ESPN said about how Dabo disciplined our punter than we are a top basketball recruit's commitment. With those priorities evidently in place, please spare me the assurance that our fans support basketball well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22404]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31297
Joined: 11/30/98
|
I've been following Clemson basketball since the 60's and
Dec 20, 2015, 1:45 PM
|
|
I agree with the others. Clemson has great basketball fans and the potential to create many new fans, if we will just build it, they will come.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44075]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32984
Joined: 2/22/03
|
Great, so you are also willing to put more money and resources into basketball?***
Dec 20, 2015, 2:06 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22404]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31297
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Yes, and that is being done currently. I just don't see the
Dec 20, 2015, 2:35 PM
|
|
need to pay the current coach any more than he is currently making. He should be having more success selling his vision along with the changes that are being implemented. This administration would have no problem paying more than they currently pay if the coach deserves it, whomever it is.
But, I think we need to get away from this idea that the fans are the root of the problem and are only interested in being a football only school.
If you build it, they will come.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58527]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46386
Joined: 4/23/00
|
A thousand amens!***
Dec 20, 2015, 4:33 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44075]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32984
Joined: 2/22/03
|
I am not suggesting that we pay Brownell more.
Dec 20, 2015, 7:59 PM
[ in reply to Yes, and that is being done currently. I just don't see the ] |
|
My point was that our next hire needs to be someone who warrants a much higher contract than Beownell gets. It needs to be a proven winner on the high major level, who recruits well and inspires others to follow him. In other words, our admin needs to show strong support for basketball. We have missed out on other coaches in the past because the perception was that Clemson is a football school which is not committed to basketball.
And I disagree that fans aren't part of the problem. Certainly not the whole problem, but part of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7114]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7325
Joined: 11/30/98
|
And you are in a fantasy world if you expect...
Dec 20, 2015, 2:33 PM
[ in reply to You are living in a fantasy world if you think our fans support basketball. ] |
|
to build fan support with a mediocre product on the court year after year. As for the fans, when the team shows some signs of life, the fans show up. Remember when we sold out Littlejohn on a SUNDAY for a NIT GAME??? Brownell's floundering is in no way due to the quality of fan support at Clemson.
He's had long enough - it's now time to see some of his players developing to the point where we have an upward trend... NOW. Even if it's not a meteoric upward trend, at this point we need to at LEAST be NIT worthy EVERY SEASON. And at LEAST every 4 years we should be in the field of 64 at the end of the season.
To be specific - if Nnoko and Grantham and Blossomgame don't show obvious improvement over the course of this season, improvement resulting in ACC WINS, that will tell me that Brownell and his staff aren't capable of getting the job done here at Clemson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44075]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32984
Joined: 2/22/03
|
I do not expect to sell out Littlejohn with a mediocre
Dec 20, 2015, 8:28 PM
|
|
performance on the court. Fans obviously want to see winning basketball. But compared to Clemson's historical basketball record, Brownell is not doing poorly. Some fans here act like we are ACC bottom feeders under Brownell, when in reality, we are firmly middle of the pack.
Now middle of the pack isn't good enough in my opinion, and the ultimate responsibility for the team's performance falls on the coach. I have never suggested otherwise. But at some point, fans need to take responsibility and ask themselves if they are doing all they can to help the team. Pathetic attendance is not helping the current team, nor does it help recruiting. Bashing the team and coaches on message boards, and generally showing a lack of passion for Clemson basketball, doesn't help either. Wanting to see improvement is fine, but some of our fans - and they know who they are - only show up here after losses and seem to enjoy bashing the team. That helps no one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7114]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7325
Joined: 11/30/98
|
It ain't the fans' fault, Judge...
Dec 21, 2015, 10:08 PM
|
|
By any reasonable reckoning, Brownell should have made more progress and shown more signs of building something than he has to this point. The truth is, Brad Brownell is rapidly losing the fans with the floundering, under-achieving, mediocre results... and I'm really wondering if he's lost the players too.
They just don't seem to show a lot of fire under this guy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44075]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32984
Joined: 2/22/03
|
It is ultimately Brad's fault. He is the head coach.
Dec 22, 2015, 12:13 AM
|
|
But you are kidding yourself if you think Clemson basketball fans have no role in our basketball program's shortcomings.
I get the fact that people want to see winning basketball, and we haven't done enough winning lately. But by reading some of the posts here, you would think that we have been awful under Brownell and finish at the bottom of the conference. In reality, we finish about middle of the pack under Brownell. We play hard and are almost always competitive, but frequently seen to fall short. I can't help but wonder if having 8,000 loud fans instead of 3,000 semi-loud fans could have made a difference in some of those close losses.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2457]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 4246
Joined: 3/12/08
|
Re: You are living in a fantasy world if you think our fans support basketball.
Dec 20, 2015, 10:48 PM
[ in reply to You are living in a fantasy world if you think our fans support basketball. ] |
|
I just showed you we can sellout against Winthrop in November.
Brownell has run off a ton of fans with his lackadaisical attitude and results. Fans will support a team that competes - which is why we sold out for the NIT. But look at the last couple of seasons:
2012 - We have 5 freshmen and need experience. We pass on the CBI. We also lost to Coastal, CofC, and SCar.
2013 - team absolutely quits by losing 10 of last 11. We also lost to powerhouse Coastal by 23.
2014 - team actually competes down the stretch and fans show up for NIT
2015 - team loses 7 of last 9 and once against turns down CBI even though we clearly need work. Team also lost to Winthrop, Gardner Webb, Rutgers, and SCar.
Fans are tired of teams quitting and playing themselves out of the tournament by mid-December. They will show up for teams who don't quit, but 3 of our last 4 teams have quit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [9033]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7382
Joined: 4/9/11
|
Littlejohn used to be considered a very tough place to play
Dec 20, 2015, 1:19 PM
|
|
I kid you not. It used to be an advantage, not to the level of DV, but an advantage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6321]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5728
Joined: 11/2/08
|
Re: Littlejohn used to be considered a very tough place to play
Dec 20, 2015, 2:30 PM
|
|
“After the United States? 77-71 Olympic basketball victory over
Greece in Athens in the 2004 Olympic Games, Stephon Marbury
was asked by the international media if he had ever played in
a more hostile environment in his career. The former Georgia
Tech point guard responded,
“Clemson.”
- Atlanta Journal Constitution
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
That is pretty cool
Dec 22, 2015, 9:48 AM
|
|
I remember watching him in Littlejohn. Great player, I have never seen that quote before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1725]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2553
Joined: 10/5/99
|
This is why I'm so frustrated with bball
Dec 20, 2015, 1:21 PM
|
|
Everything we do is half assed and it is hard to get behind a program that the admin isn't even behind. We aren't willing to pay a top notch coach and I'm worried the latest renovation is going to be another bungled LJ project. The money we have put into LJ the last 15 years could have built a brand new arena. We have spent more money trying to fix LJ than USCe spent to build their brand new 18k seat arena.
The fans will come when there is excitement about our bball program. There is none right now. We are just marking time as a program right now, just trying to get by with the bare minimum. I remember just 7 years ago how excited I was when it was bball gameday. Now I can barely stand to watch our games.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6321]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5728
Joined: 11/2/08
|
Re: This is why I'm so frustrated with bball
Dec 20, 2015, 2:41 PM
|
|
coots had a $24 million contribution from the city to help build that arena. Coots paid $44 million, city paid $24 million and the land was donated
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Apples and oranges. CLA is a concert venue that happens to
Dec 20, 2015, 8:35 PM
[ in reply to This is why I'm so frustrated with bball ] |
|
host USuCk basketball games. Much like Columbia is a city that happens to have a university.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2565]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2242
Joined: 2/1/99
|
Re: If we fire Brownell, we better go big with the next hire.
Dec 20, 2015, 1:37 PM
|
|
AMEN, AMEN & AMEN!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Letterman [285]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 459
Joined: 12/31/05
|
We have other options...
Dec 20, 2015, 3:21 PM
|
|
Alternatively we can look to hire someone with a fast paced style of play. Purnell had a ton of support due to the game being fun to watch.
Due to the ACC TV contract, we don't actually have to be good at basketball. Another approach all together is to spend as little money as possible to maximize the TV revenue. Then we could focus on our sports where we are at least competitive. Soccer, Track, Golf, etc.
We currently pay enough to be in the top 40 at basketball and we're nowhere close to that now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80886]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23678
Joined: 8/21/06
|
Re: I don't care whether we go after a big name coach or
Dec 20, 2015, 3:49 PM
|
|
we go after an up and comer as long as the coach has a clear plan of action for the Clemson program and he is willing to work and do whatever it takes (within the rules)to make Clemson a winner.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2332]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3530
Joined: 5/7/03
|
Re: I don't care whether we go after a big name coach or
Dec 20, 2015, 4:27 PM
|
|
I am in my 60s and have seen it all since 1972! Brownell will likely be like Coach Bowden, good but not great, and have LJC for a year, but with the early losses, a clear lack of team chemistry and long dry spells offensively I just do not see reasonable progress! Give Brownell an admin. job after this season and move in a new direction. Let Brownell prove his worth or else. Find a young hungry passionate coach who can recruit and build. Hire an experienced teaching staff and demand effort and results from players!
Go Tigers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3222]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4841
Joined: 10/7/07
|
Brownell is not going to get fired.
Dec 20, 2015, 8:06 PM
|
|
Go TIGERS
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
|
Re: If we fire Brownell, we better go big with the next hire.
Dec 22, 2015, 12:23 AM
|
|
Brownell wont be fired this year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
But he should already be fired***
Dec 22, 2015, 9:44 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1307
Joined: 6/22/15
|
Re: If we fire Brownell, we better go big with the next hire.
Dec 22, 2015, 4:35 AM
|
|
In 2008, LJ was ranked best home court advantage in Ncaa bb 08. (I may have the wrong year but my point stands).
The general consensus among students is we would go to games, but it's not worth the time to watch the team. It' sucks but it is what it is until we can start beating teams with a pulse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [65815]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33325
Joined: 12/3/03
|
The basketball culture has changed from when I attended back
Dec 22, 2015, 7:44 AM
|
|
in the days of bell bottomed jeans and #### Nixon. We had nothing for a team my freshman year, and the students still showed up loud and proud all the time. Then, Tree Rollins and company showed up, and things got really interesting for awhile.
All this just shows that the fans will show up if there is something interesting to see. Right now our coach, and our team, are both pretty vanilla. We don't have a dominant player, and Brownell's coaching style will never get anybody really excited. But, as Dabo says, the fun is in the winning. If we start winning on a consistent basis, basketball will come to the forefront. But, to make that happen, somewhere along the line we have to have that CJ Spiller type player come to Clemson to make a name for himself in basketball. It may happen under the current regime, but unfortunately, I don't see that being the case. Those marque type players just don't seem to want to come and play in Brownell's system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 32
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
