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Scout Team [182]
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The sky is falling
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Sep 26, 2023, 6:58 PM
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Well, well well, it's over, right?
We lost to DUKE!!! To DUUUUUUKEEE! (in football)
...and to FSU.
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Now, if you've been a fan for like 5 years it's prob over for you, yes.
Colorado and UGA bandwagons are heaaatin' up! FSU is adding new folks by the day.
But if you've been around for a while you remember that Clemson football has a long and storied history of mediocrity.
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What do I mean?
Frank Howard - changed the game, built the program, started IPTAY... mediocre W/L.
Danny Ford - put Clemson on the map, won it all, had a GREAT decade...
The rest has been pure mediocrity.
Enter Dabo Swinney.
Dabo took over as HC and 99% of us thought it was insane that he was the new coach...
But look back: Dabo was an assistant at Clemson. Danny Ford was an assistant at Clemson prior to becoming HC.
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So, to everyone who's saying "fire this" or "portal that" you must be new to the program.
Dabo has constantly been an innovator. When something isn't working he fixes it. He's loyal but a chameleon. He changes when he needs to and guess what... We've won two nattys... A darn ton of ACC championships. 10 wins? That's the expectation now.
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Dabo's gonna make some changes (portal/coaching) this off season, rest assured. He has his finger on the pulse. I'll be happy to go back and eat crow on this if I'm wrong.
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If you watched the game on Saturday you saw a solid football team. There were some missteps, yes. There was a talent deficit at boundary receiver, yes. But fire Dabo?
Do y'all remember what it was like with Tommy Bowden? I sure do. As long as Dabo's at the helm we ain't going back...
We only go up and back to the CFP.
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Legend [19586]
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As long as we lose 10-15 experienced players to the
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Sep 26, 2023, 7:02 PM
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Portal every year and replace them with freshman and walk ons we won’t go anywhere but continuing to slide down. Not an opinion. Just reality and common sense.
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Legend [16921]
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Sticking with this huh?
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Sep 26, 2023, 7:22 PM
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we're not replacing them with walkons. there is an argument to be made about the value of experience but you're clearly trying to imply we're downgrading talent. All recruiting assessments say otherwise. The rank of our total team talent has increased since 2020 not decreased. And, the availability of players with bonus eligibility shrinks to pre-covid norms completely by 2025 with a diminishing number of players every year. The 2nd time FBS transfer restriction is also going to bring more caution to jumping in the portal. This is the first year that the NCAA is back to enforcing it and they appear to be sticking to their guns.
Then you have to look at who is leaving. In 2022 we lost 2 4* recruits. TJ Dudley who obviously would not have started at linebacker this year and is not on the depth chart at Ole Miss. He is only one year out of high school. So we're only losing 1 year of practice experience there.
DJU is the other - might have been nice to have him stick around as a backup but that wasn't happening whether we're using the word "portal" or not.
The rest are 3 stars
Malcolm Green - left with 2 seasons of eligibility remaining. Made more starts as a freshman than a junior. Is currently the 2nd string right corner back at Virginia. Would definitely not be starting this year. Possibly a starter in 2024. Is a graduate so would have been able to transfer unconditionally under previous transfer rules.
Etinosa Reuben - Redshirted for us in 2019. left with 2 seasons eligibility. He's the 4th defensive end on the GT depth chart. Almost certainly would have never started at Clemson.
Kobe Pace - RB transfer to Virginia. left with 2 years remaining. Would never have started at Clemson
Fred Davis - CB. Two years remaining. Already transferred a second time and is third string LCB at UCF. Would never have started at Clemson.
Vonta Bentley - left with 1 year remaining. would not have started this year at linebacker. currently second string linebacker at Colorado
EJ williams - 2 years eligibity remaining when left. Starting wide receiver for Indiana. This is one we might like to have held onto.
Kevin Swint - 2 years remaining. Backup linebacker for Georgia State now. Would never have started at Clemson.
Dacari Collins - 2 years remaining - no covid eligibility. Currently listed at 3rd as WR at NC State. With new talent and incoming talent very unlikely to have made two deep but maybe with injuries you like to keep this one.
Billy Wiles - QB. C'mon.
Sergio Allen - 3 years remaining. Backup LB at California. played a total of 31 snaps over 2 seasons. Not a significant loss of veteran experience. Unlikely to have ever started
Long before it was called portal - upper classmen who weren't going to break into the starting lineup were already transferring at a steady clip. we're substituting age and experience for high school recruits amongst our backup ranks. Those high school recruits are by large higher ranked than the departing players. Of all those 12 players there are only 2 that would have any chance of meaningfully contributing this year and that's only cause of injuries.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Sticking with this huh?
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Sep 26, 2023, 7:40 PM
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We have replaced those spots with walkons on several occasions since 2018.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Sticking with this huh?
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Sep 26, 2023, 8:16 PM
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So in 6 recruiting cycles we’ve offered scholarships to some walk-ons? How many walk-ons are currently consuming scholarships - I genuinely have no idea. We have actually signed an average of 1 more player a year post portal than in the 5 years preceding. So our recruiting classes aren’t shrinking. And the average value per player of our scholarship roster per 247 is going up, not down since the creation of the portal. So I don’t see where there is tangible evidence of your assertion.
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Freshman [-79]
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This is great info, but I dont expect the magic portal boys to get it.***
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Sep 27, 2023, 10:55 AM
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Commissioner [934]
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Very well done Viztiz
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Sep 26, 2023, 7:45 PM
[ in reply to Sticking with this huh? ] |
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Thanks you for posting facts.
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MVP [500]
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Re: Sticking with this huh?
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Sep 26, 2023, 8:31 PM
[ in reply to Sticking with this huh? ] |
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Hey viztiz, you must have been a fly on the wall today at my workplace because that is exactly what me and a coworker were discussing. Dabo knows that it will settle back down once the Covid years are exhausted. Why hit the portal and get a guy that is only going to stay one season when you can recruit a 4 or 5 star that you know you will have on your team 3-5 years. Also, how many high school coaches do you think are noticing that Dabo doesn’t go to the portal and said high school coach would have a sit down talk with the recruit and remind him about Dabo giving the recruit the chance to come in and prove himself instead of getting some 3 year college player the scholarship. ALOT!!!
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Sticking with this huh?
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Sep 26, 2023, 9:09 PM
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I get the urge to pretend COVID never happened but it’s amazing how little discussion it gets as to how it has effected college football. There’s also the fact that the 2021 signing class played anywhere from half to zero of their senior football seasons so came in dramatically out of shape and the 2022 signing class were juniors in 2020 - so teams had to make decision mostly on sophomore and freshman scouting reports and YouTube videos. Acting like there is a magic bullet (THE PORTAL!) to solve these issues is silly. The soon to be dissolved PAC 12 has 6 ranked teams. No one knows what the heck is going on. I trust Dabo to see us to the other side.
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Rock Defender [58]
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Re: Sticking with this huh?
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Sep 26, 2023, 10:28 PM
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Love this. Totally agree.
We may take one or two 100% culture fit guys from the portal and it’s great for the Prime’s and Past Glory programs but overall it’s not going to be sustainable.
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Hall of Famer [22741]
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Legend [19586]
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Correct.
Sep 27, 2023, 8:11 AM
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11 2022
12 2023
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110%er [8539]
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Legend [19586]
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Re: As long as we lose 10-15 experienced players to the
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Sep 27, 2023, 8:24 AM
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2022 Transfers and years of experience
4 years or more - 2
3 years - 6
2 Years - 2
1 Year - 1
2023 Transfers and years of experience
4 years or more - 2
3 years - 7
2 Years - 1
1 Year - 2
You're absolutely wrong.
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110%er [7238]
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Re: As long as we lose 10-15 experienced players to the
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Sep 26, 2023, 9:44 PM
[ in reply to As long as we lose 10-15 experienced players to the ] |
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We haven't lost anyone to the portal that contributed much success. They either left because they were pending suspension for violation of team rules, or they simply would not see significant playing time.
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Legend [19586]
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Programs are built on depth, development and competition
Sep 27, 2023, 8:26 AM
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That's hard to do when your you lose nearly 10 4th and 5th year players to the portal every year and don't replace it with like experience. And I didn't make this up. Look it up your self.
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Walk-On [123]
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Legend [19586]
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I have facts to back me up. What say you bubba?***
Sep 27, 2023, 8:26 AM
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CU Medallion [53829]
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When have we lost 15? 10? Maybe 5 or 6. And honestly, the
Sep 27, 2023, 8:28 AM
[ in reply to As long as we lose 10-15 experienced players to the ] |
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only one that hurt us was Kendrick. We've only had two or three that even did anything anywhere else..Pagano,Mellussi,who else?
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Legend [19586]
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Would you guys please actually look up stuff before
Sep 27, 2023, 8:31 AM
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responding so I don't have to waste my time. If you're going to argue with me at least take the time to educate yourselves.
We lost 11 players to the portal in 2022 and 12 in 2023.
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Legend [19586]
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CU Medallion [65538]
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Here's the blunt truth about the Portal. Most, if not all of
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Sep 27, 2023, 8:55 AM
[ in reply to As long as we lose 10-15 experienced players to the ] |
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the top players who go into the Portal already have their next destination in hand BEFORE they set foot in it. It's called Tampering, and in this lawless Wild Wild West era we are in now, it is totally rampant.
So, for us to get at this mythical well of Portal talent you keep harping on, we would have to join other schools in this ILLEGAL ACTION, if we want to "level the playing field" as applies to the Portal. You can poo-poo that all you want, coaches like Mack Brown have come out in public with specific instances of tampering individuals trying to get his best players to transfer.
I have said it before, and it bears repeating, I do not want a team of paid Mercenaries representing Clemson University on the football field. And, to some extent, that is what high level talent in the Transfer Portal has become. If a kid wants to sell himself to the highest bidder, the Portal plus NIL sets him up perfectly to do that.
Now, if you are Clemson, with the culture that Dabo has built here, you are not going after those people. You just aren't. So, fans on message boards can flap their gums about it until they run out of air, it AIN'T HAPPENING.
Now, is there talent in the Portal that is NOT just out to make a buck? Certainly there is, but again, most of that talent already had a destination set up before they put their name in. That's just another inconvenient fact that Portal lovers just gloss over. So, even if Dabo advertised on a 50 foot tall billboard that he was open for Portal business, I don't think Clemson wins many battles against schools with huge, well funded Alumni bases, and Oil Baron boosters. Just another inconvenient fact.
As far as "losing 10 to 15 experienced players to the Portal", I can only think of one, MAYBE two cases where a player who transferred out, without being TOLD to leave, would have been a starter for us. And, regardless of how you want to poormouth us, Clemson has continued to recruit VERY well from the high school ranks. Our classes from top to bottom are MUCH better talent wise than when we started our run of success.
Bottom line is, if you are not going to be happy unless Clemson starts regularly using the Transfer Portal, you might as well turn in your fan card and move on to Colorado, FSU, or Texas A&M. Because, it ain't gonna happen.
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Freshman [-79]
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Oculus Spirit [77015]
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Nice first post, coot.***
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Sep 26, 2023, 7:05 PM
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Legend [16983]
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Re: Nice first post, coot.***
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Sep 26, 2023, 7:55 PM
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You beat Bob to it!!!
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Starter [373]
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Re: The sky is falling
Sep 26, 2023, 7:11 PM
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I dont think most on here are saying Dabo has lost it, or that Clemson will continue to slide, in fact i think this team may finish very well, and next years team will be an almost shoe in playoff spot, having said that it is a little concerning to some the small things dabo continues to do, and also not do, the friends and family plan kicker, and the refusal to for some reason simply search for 1-3 starter quality portal players.
If we were 6-0 instead of 1-5 against the P5 opponents of late i can assure you there would be almost no post about portal or friends and family plan players.......but the reality is 1-5 and both issues continue to linger as he seemingly laughs it off.
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CU Guru [1326]
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Almost shoe in playoff spot? Please elaborate.***
Sep 26, 2023, 7:23 PM
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Starter [373]
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Re: Almost shoe in playoff spot? Please elaborate.***
Sep 26, 2023, 7:45 PM
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next year there will be 12 playoff spots, so yes i would say clemson is a shoein, considering teams like notre dame, FSU, Southern Cal will all be losing alot including there QB's can you think of 12 teams better than clemson next year.
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Recruit [98]
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Re: The sky is falling
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Sep 26, 2023, 8:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: The sky is falling ] |
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There will always be posts about the portal, family plan players because this is too often the home of moaners, cups are always half empty, whiners. As my father used to say around our home, there’s a 25 cent fine for whining. Grow a set!!
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Asst Coach [709]
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Re: The sky is falling
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Sep 26, 2023, 7:17 PM
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Frank Howard started IPTAY? And the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor. 🙄
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All-TigerNet [10906]
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I think Coach Howard did start IPTAY...I pay ten a year!***
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Sep 26, 2023, 7:59 PM
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CU Medallion [53829]
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Yessir. And he turned a ditch into Death Valley.***
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Sep 27, 2023, 8:29 AM
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Orange Blooded [4713]
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CU Guru [1390]
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Re: The sky is falling
Sep 26, 2023, 7:53 PM
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Cluck …. Cluck…cluck … how many men’s championship does Cooter who have???
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Standout [313]
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Re: The sky is falling
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Sep 26, 2023, 8:15 PM
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👍🏿🐅
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All-In [44054]
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It doesnt say much for Dabos adaptation ability
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Sep 26, 2023, 9:13 PM
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if he’s several years late making some of these changes.
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Hall of Famer [22741]
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Re: It doesnt say much for Dabos adaptation ability
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Sep 26, 2023, 9:20 PM
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Cheap shot. Troll.
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All-In [44054]
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Facts you dont like are not cheap shots.***
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Sep 26, 2023, 9:23 PM
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Hall of Famer [22741]
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Re: Facts you dont like are not cheap shots.***
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Sep 26, 2023, 9:24 PM
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Your opinions are not facts.
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All-In [44054]
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Dabo is the slowest coach in FBS to use the transfer portal.
Sep 27, 2023, 10:56 AM
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That is a fact.
Look around at other schools, they've used the portal more than we have, and they've also used it to bring in players who play and make a meaningful contribution to the team.
So if Dabo decides after this season to use the transfer portal, he will not be showing that he adapts well and/or quickly to things. Rather, he will be showing that he adapts slowly.
This isn't debatable.
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Hall of Famer [22741]
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Re: Dabo is the slowest coach in FBS to use the transfer portal.
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:35 PM
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It’s only not debatable in your mind. Dabo has adapted very well in his time at Clemson. Just because you don’t agree with his beliefs regarding the use of the portal doesn’t make it factual and certainly doesn’t speak to his overall adaptability. Still just your opinion.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: It doesnt say much for Dabos adaptation ability
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Sep 26, 2023, 10:00 PM
[ in reply to It doesnt say much for Dabos adaptation ability ] |
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Ummm…we’re in the 3rd year since last making the CFP. Only 2 seasons have passed since COVID. So several seasons haven’t passed - that’s an incorrect statement by definition. And he changed OC after only 2 seasons, which negates your adaptation argument. For a single sentence you got a lot wrong.
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CU Medallion [53829]
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Covid hurt our recruiting way more than others. For one
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Sep 27, 2023, 8:34 AM
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thing..we didn't get players to camp like we did for years. At least I don't think we did. So, we missed on the receivers. I mean, bombed. Now hopefully, that is about to turn around. A healthy Stellato,Williams,Brown,Wesco,and Moore..plus Hanafin and Noble could be the best crew we have had in a long time. Remember when Jaron Brown was our 5th best ....FIFTH!
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Covid hurt our recruiting way more than others. For on
Sep 27, 2023, 10:53 AM
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I think the impact is seriously underestimated. Junior year is the most important for high school evaluations. The players we locked in on for 2021 lost significant practice and game experience. Some areas of the country didn’t compete at all that year. Our national recruiting footprint didn’t help here. The players for 2022 lost equal time and we had little to nothing to go on for evaluations. Exceptional evaluations, which started with Dabo, has been the lifeblood of the program. There is no reason to believe he has lost that skill. People accuse Dabo tying an arm behind his back by not using the portal. I think that circumstances beyond his control are more to blame. And since the complications of COVID are transitory there is no reason to burn down the system. The portal is not going to be an avenue for long term, consistent success.
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Legend [16263]
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As a Tater hating troll you would obviously gloss over Dabo
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Sep 27, 2023, 11:22 AM
[ in reply to It doesnt say much for Dabos adaptation ability ] |
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being ahead of the NIL curve when it was first coming to pass. He immediately went into personal brand building mode and devoted resources to helping our student-athletes market themselves with state-of-the-art tools and professional guidance in order to best capitalize on this new resource. Dabo has never been against NIL - he is against pay-to-play, and rightfully so in the college environment that actual Clemson fans hold so dear.
You're a cheap shot artist bending 'facts' to suit your anti-Clemson stance repeatedly. Following Dabo's foresight and ingenuity here, the AD expanded this program to help all Clemson sports, including Brown L's program. Under Dabo we are not going to tamper with other teams' rosters. Under Dabo we are not going to cheat the system and pay players to come here with phony NIL deals. Under Dabo we WILL continue to attract young men to Clemson and provide them the coaching and resources to become the best versions of themselves possible in life after football, always striving for excellence in every aspect along the way. We don't always achieve excellence - that's part of life. But Dabo will never cease striving for it nonetheless, and doing so in the true spirit of Clemson, something you are incapable of fathoming considering you are not one of us.
Go (actual) Tigers!
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Lot o points [155973]
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Why is it always the long-time fans (of which I am one)
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Sep 27, 2023, 8:32 AM
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who have elevated Dabo to this insane pedestal where they believe he literally IS Clemson and we won't function without him?
I'm not in the "fire Dabo" camp whatsoever, but I also recognize that he's just a man, and the school I love will not go anywhere on the eventual day he leaves us, whether that's voluntarily or involuntarily.
If anything our school and our football program needs a breather to let some of these bandwagon jumpers hop off.
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110%er [6861]
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This mediocrity before Dabo rhetoric isnt based in fact
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Sep 27, 2023, 8:42 AM
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Clemson was a top 25 all time program in nearly even meaningful metric BEFORE Dabo. Not sure how that is mediocre, but ok.
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Legend [16263]
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Re: Why is it always the long-time fans (of which I am one)
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Sep 27, 2023, 11:50 AM
[ in reply to Why is it always the long-time fans (of which I am one) ] |
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Seems like the breather you are referencing is underway with the recent slump we're in. Instead of jumping off, though, the bandwagon fans are simply piling on.
There are too many examples of entitled and somewhat spoiled fan bases of programs with solid performance histories, like ours, that have achieved more recent phenomenal success, losing their collective minds when a few seasons don't go their way following and overreacting, then wandering the desert for far longer spells after wondering what happened.
Alabama, Michigan, Tennessee, and Notre Dame are a few blue bloods that come to mind over the past decades or so.
Be careful what you ask for.
Go Tigers.
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: Why is it always the long-time fans (of which I am one)
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:58 PM
[ in reply to Why is it always the long-time fans (of which I am one) ] |
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Because he is. I don't know how you could possibly say we weren't mediocre pre Dabo.
Ok, maybe we were above average and not "mediocre" by definition.
For example:
We had 7 total 10-win seasons pre-Dabo:
1. 1948 (Frank Howard)
2. 1978 (Pell/Ford)
3. 1981, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990 (Ford)
Dabo has 12 in 14 years. 2 Nattys... how many acc championships?
We went from mediocrity to on SportsCenter errrrryyyday.
I'm ALL IN.
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110%er [6905]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 9192
Joined: 7/11/03
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Much easier to get 10 wins now due to playing more games***
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Oct 12, 2023, 9:31 AM
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Legend [17630]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14169
Joined: 10/24/10
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Re: Why is it always the long-time fans (of which I am one)
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Oct 12, 2023, 3:54 PM
[ in reply to Why is it always the long-time fans (of which I am one) ] |
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who have elevated Dabo to this insane pedestal where they believe he literally IS Clemson and we won't function without him?
I'm not in the "fire Dabo" camp whatsoever, but I also recognize that he's just a man, and the school I love will not go anywhere on the eventual day he leaves us, whether that's voluntarily or involuntarily.
If anything our school and our football program needs a breather to let some of these bandwagon jumpers hop off.
Agree Obed®. Coach Dabo Swinney is a mercenary like most college head & assistant coaches. 95+% are at the college or university who will pay them the most money and provide the longest term contract. No different than the real working world with the exception some coaches have buyouts that pay them more not to work based on a horrendous record.
We all owe Coach a debt of well-earned gratitude for catching lightning in a bottle for a decade. And IMHO Dabo truly loves Clemson University, but that does not make me believe Coach will finish his career at Clemson. One day Dabo will move on, and Clemson will move on as well with TigerNet opining through the process.
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Letterman [252]
TigerPulse: 93%
Posts: 159
Joined: 10/13/03
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Re: The sky is falling
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Sep 27, 2023, 5:02 PM
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dascoreathalf
I have been a very long time member, rarely post, but lurk every season.
Thank you for posting this... We are so spoiled.
I am with Dabo 110% I am ALL-IN.
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Scout Team [182]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56
Joined: 9/26/23
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Re: The sky is falling
Oct 12, 2023, 9:05 AM
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Appreciate the love, fam!
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