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All-In [43499]
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The motive still hasn't been established, but...
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Jul 18, 2024, 12:23 PM
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The Fox News/right wing radio (or podcast) talking point that was so pervasive after the attempted assassination likely is false: That the shooter was driven by the rhetoric against Trump and the comparisons to fascism.
The kid posted "July 13 will be my premiere, watch as it unfolds." He had Internet searches for Trump and Biden. He had also looked up dates for the Democratic National Convention.
It appears to likely be a disturbed young man who wanted publicity, which isn't the first time we've come across something like that.
The rush to attach it to rhetoric against Trump was a twofold plot: Blame this on the words of people who don't like Trump, and try to silence them. It's a step towards what Trumpism wants: Punish people who criticize Trump. Period.
This is why it's important to wait before rushing to judgment, or let anyone else make you think somehow your own opinions caused something to happen.
Don't blame violence on things or people's opinions or abstract concepts. Blame violence on the person committing it.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-assassination-attempt-trump-motive-investigation-phone-suspect/story?id=112057259
EDIT: Obed, I know you stated this as well but I do not think you are a person trying to silence or punish people for their words. That's something the likes of Keowee, NC_Tiger, RTD, etc--people who hate a free nation--are trying to accomplish.
Message was edited by: Catahoula®
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All-TigerNet [13875]
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We don't know
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Jul 18, 2024, 12:38 PM
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The rhetoric comparing Trump to Hitler and an existential threat to democracy is dangerous. There are plenty of nuts out there and the threat level to Trump has been high.
The same goes for the rhetoric from the right that if Trump doesn't win that Biden or whatever option the Dems choose, will take the nation into ruin that is not recoverable from.
I agree that we have no idea why this young man decided to try to take out Trump. It is reasonable to state that the rhetoric from the left has put Trump at risk and that this assassination attempt should not be a surprise, but to speculate on this particular shooter's motives is wrong and premature.
I personally doubt he was politically motivated although that possibility remains.
For those that think Trump is Hitler 2.0, they should be very disappointed that Trump is alive and hope the next man up emerges.
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All-In [45441]
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When you say rhetoric from the left, do you include Vance in that statement?***
Jul 18, 2024, 12:41 PM
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All-TigerNet [13875]
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Re: When you say rhetoric from the left, do you include Vance in that statement?***
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Jul 18, 2024, 12:51 PM
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Vance is not from the left as you know, but yes when he said that, that was dangerous and inciting rhetoric.
It's basic. If people believe someone is going to become Hitler 2.0, then Hitler 2.0 needs to be taken out.
The guardrails of this country are much sturdier than many give credit to. Democracy in this country will survive Trump if he is elected and would survive Bernie Sanders too if he were the candidate.
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All-In [29099]
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I hope you're right
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Jul 18, 2024, 12:55 PM
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But an elected president with no accountability and virtually unlimited authority seem to be a pretty big danger when it comes to an actual democracy.
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Oculus Spirit [79970]
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This is part of that crazy rhetoric too..."no accountability and virtually
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Jul 18, 2024, 1:00 PM
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unlimited authority". That is not reality, that is not what the Supreme Court ruling says.
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All-In [29099]
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Potentially
Jul 18, 2024, 1:06 PM
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I admit I may be seeing it more negatively than it pans out in practice.
But seeing as how a Trump lawyer argues in front of the Supreme Court that a president should have the legal authority to have Seal Team 6 assinate a political rival, I don't hold too hopeful a view.
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Oculus Spirit [79970]
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Their argument was a little more nuanced than you're making it out to be
Jul 18, 2024, 1:16 PM
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That's not to say the topic shouldn't be hashed out in more detail, but your knee jerk reaction is a good illustration of how the media negatively influences peoples perceptions. Frankly, after 8 years of doom I'm not sure how anybody takes it seriously anymore.
Of course, if one actually believed he now has legal authority to take out his political rivals based on the latest ruling, wouldn't that necessitate some sort of extreme action?...You know, like killing him? Obviously most people wouldn't act on that, but out of ~330 million people in this country, certainly a few would be willing to.
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All-In [29099]
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I don't think he has that legal authority
Jul 18, 2024, 1:25 PM
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And I'm not arguing Trump would or wants to do that.
But I do think he argued for that his legal team argued for that sort of immunity from prosecution.
You can go back and look, if you'd like, I don't engage in throwing insults or violent rhetoric towards anyone (even someone I disagree with as much as Trump), but I do think it valid to discuss the current trend to granting more power/authorty/immunity to the President (no matter the party or platform) is a danger to a true democracy.
I do find it odd that all of a sudden there is a call from folks on the right to end some of the rhetoric (which I agree with), but so little was said when (not saying you) folks were throwing around accusations of treason like it was candy.
But again, I'm all for discussing issues rather than rhetoric.
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Oculus Spirit [79970]
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My understanding is they argued that there is already a mechanism to hold
Jul 18, 2024, 1:41 PM
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him accountable for those kind of actions.
Would you agree that with headlines like the one below, there's undoubtedly thousands, if not millions of people who now believe he does have that legal authority though?
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-scotus-supreme-court-immunity-case-sotomayor-1921444
I think that's a valid discussion as well, no disagreement there. However, the left is only now beginning to receive a taste of their own medicine regarding violent, hateful rhetoric. It was an inevitable outcome, and why I don't see unity happening any time soon. When you've spent the last 20 years accusing your political opposition of being racist, xenophobic, domestic terrorists(among other things), don't be surprised if some accusations of treason and what not come back at you eventually.
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All-TigerNet [12603]
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Can I add some context and point out the fallacy in the SEAL Team Six
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Jul 18, 2024, 2:54 PM
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assassination "theory"...
First off here is the actual exchange as recapped from Business Insider:
Judge Florence Pan, one of three judges on the Washington, DC, appeals-court panel, tested that argument at length when she posed a series of hypotheticals to Trump's lawyer D. John Sauer.
Pan wondered whether, according to the Trump team's argument, a president could be held criminally accountable for selling pardons or military secrets if he wasn't impeached and convicted by Congress for it.
"Your position is that he can't be prosecuted for that unless he's impeached?" Pan said.
"Yup, as long as it's an official act," Sauer said.
Then Pan took it a step further.
"Could a president order SEAL Team Six to assassinate a political rival?" she said. "That's an official act: an order to SEAL Team Six."
"He would have to be, and would, speedily be impeached and convicted before the criminal prosecution — " Sauer began, but Pan cut him off.
"But if he weren't, there would be no criminal prosecution, no criminal liability for that?" she said.
Sauer reiterated that a president would first have to be impeached by the House of Representatives and convicted by the Senate before he could be criminally charged for any acts related to his office. He started to discuss the position of the Founding Fathers before Pan cut him off again.
"I asked you a yes or no question," the judge said. "Could a president who ordered SEAL Team Six to assassinate a political rival, who was not impeached, would he be subject to criminal prosecution?"
"If he were impeached and convicted first, and so — " Sauer began.
"So your answer is no," Pan said.
Couple of comments.... First to address the fallacy of the SEAL Team Six question... In the military there is such a thing as an "unlawful order" of which the military is not only duty bound to NOT obey but to report having been given such an order.
Plain and simple - any President that gives an order to SEAL Team Six, or anyone else in the military to assassinate/murder a domestic political opponent knows very well that this is an unlawful order. An unlawful order cannot in any way be construed as an "official act" of the President and likewise the military will REFUSE to carry out such an order knowing darn well they cannot be party to such a crime.
So for starters - Judge Pan's characterization of a domestic political opponent assassination order to SEAL team Six as being an "official act" is complete horse dump which makes the whole hypothetical question a false premise "gotcha".
Secondly - Trump's lawyer did suggest that such an act by a President would be criminal but contended that the President must be impeached first before being prosecuted. Every time Trump's lawyer tried to affirm this stance the judge cut him off and then answered the question for him as "no". So ultimately Trump's lawyer never claimed the President could "officially" have SEAL Team Six assassinate his opponent that was Judge Pan's conclusion to a false premised hypothetical and not the actual lawyer's words.
Finally - none of this matters. The SCOTUS ruled on Presidential immunity and quite frankly - for those that have read the actual decision can see that it is well reasoned and well within the bounds of how Presidential actions have always been viewed since our founding.
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Legend [18200]
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Thanks for posting the exchange it makes things clearer for people...
Jul 18, 2024, 5:26 PM
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and supports Pan's argument/line of questioning. You agree that ordering Seal Team 6 to kill a political rival by a President is unlawful and thus not an official act. However, Trump's lawyer is arguing that it IS an 'official' act and thus a President must be impeached first before they were criminally charged. It's important to note this is different from carrying out the order.
And considering how the Republican party is beholden to Trump it's not a guarantee that even in that extreme case they'd vote to impeach Trump which is exactly what Trump thinks which is why he and his lawyers are setting the framework to limit the one-check against his powers - the judiciary.
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All-In [29099]
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I stop well short of the "Hitler" comments...
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Jul 18, 2024, 12:54 PM
[ in reply to We don't know ] |
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...for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that even were it apt (and I'm not arguing it is) it does no good as we've seen a large portion of his fanbase willing to excuse every one of his actions.
But, I do think there is a very real argument to be made that stacking the highest court in the land with folks who argue the President has nearly unlimited authority and very very little accountability is, in fact, a threat to democracy.
But again, he's not Hitler. I don't think he holds to an ideology other than power and greed.
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All-In [43499]
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Hitler comparisons are pretty outlandish
Jul 18, 2024, 2:16 PM
[ in reply to We don't know ] |
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Although perhaps Trump should stop telling his people in private that he admires things about Nazi Germany (did this with his military staff).
But the comparisons to fascism and his threat to democracy, as some have noted with he and his followers published plans to put too much power in the hands of a man who refused to accept previous election results and explored martial law options to stay in power, are valid.
Sorry. If Trumpies don't want those comparisons, they should hold their leader accountable for his actions.
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Orange Blooded [2526]
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Trump is a threat to Democracy....
Jul 18, 2024, 3:54 PM
[ in reply to We don't know ] |
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He's not Hitler (unlike what JD Vance alleged previously). But he proved in the aftermath of the 2020 election that he's scornful of election results that don't favor him, as he tried to end our Democracy back then.
Republicans are going to use this to try to silence Democrats. But it won't work. And it is not dangerous to correctly label Trump as a threat to Democracy.
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Lot o points [162126]
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^^^pretty much sums up my reply.
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Jul 18, 2024, 5:35 PM
[ in reply to We don't know ] |
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There’s no scenario in which I can be convinced that the language used from the top down to describe Trump over the last 8 years hasn’t stirred immense hatred amongst a large portion of the left. Yes, it’s been reciprocated bi-directionally so this isn’t a “only dems do it” post, but we are talking about Trump getting shot here so I’m focusing on that angle.
Even if this kid wasn’t worked into a raging froth against Trump, the language used against them certainly aided into dehumanizing him and his supporters to the point it made it easier, whatever his reasons were, to fire at Trump and (by default) into a crowd of his supporters. The more you dehumanize a group, the less traditional societal norms apply in how you treat them and the more the ends justify the means.
Again, maybe he didn’t hate the man but maybe he also thought, based on the very way opposition party leaders described him, that he’d be a hero to half the country if he took Trump out.
I’m still at a complete opposite of you thinking it’s likely it had no bearing. I’d say it’s almost impossible that it had no bearing.
I’ve been a broken record since the W. Era posting on here about this, but somehow we have to get back to thinking that those who are ideological opposites of us are simply wrong or misled, but well intentioned, and not pure evil with the most selfish and hateful of motives for their beliefs. It’s the difference between seeing them as humans vs enemies.
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All-In [26258]
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Re: ^^^pretty much sums up my reply.
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Jul 18, 2024, 5:59 PM
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I mean, who doesn't want to kill Nazi magats
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All-In [32380]
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100% agree on your last point...
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Jul 18, 2024, 6:21 PM
[ in reply to ^^^pretty much sums up my reply. ] |
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we should keep debate based on the points and not the motives...at least in the general sense.
I hear so often from folks of MAGA that the "left" wants to destroy our country. I know a fair amount of pretty far left liberals. I agree with them on almost nothing politically, but I don't know any of them to want to destroy our country.
And same goes for those on the left that accuse MAGA of wanting to take the US back to slavery and on and on. Are worse yet, the "woke" mentality that quickly silences any opposition speech.
Let's debate the points on the merits of the points and leave it there.
A big feeder into this mentality is increasing level of isolation of our population. More and more, we only associate with like-minded people with similar backgrounds and social-economic stations. This situation is so well described in Michael Smerconish's Mingle Project.
https://www.smerconish.com/mingle-project/
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All-In [43499]
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Re: ^^^pretty much sums up my reply.
Jul 18, 2024, 8:09 PM
[ in reply to ^^^pretty much sums up my reply. ] |
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Even if this kid wasn’t worked into a raging froth against Trump, the language used against them certainly aided into dehumanizing him and his supporters to the point it made it easier, whatever his reasons were, to fire at Trump and (by default) into a crowd of his supporters. The more you dehumanize a group, the less traditional societal norms apply in how you treat them and the more the ends justify the means.
Unless the kid was a sociopath, then it doesn’t matter regarding humanization. Just like how Trump is one and doesn’t care about the other person’s image.
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All-TigerNet [14363]
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K. The FBI told me so.***
Jul 18, 2024, 12:42 PM
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All-In [26258]
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Re: The motive still hasn't been established, but...
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Jul 18, 2024, 12:52 PM
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Seems to be the quick narrative as much as 'he thinks Trump is a fascist' narrative. And, both seemed to start immediately.
And yes, people are responsible for their own actions.
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Oculus Spirit [79970]
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lol, someone attempting to kill him is the logical outcome of the insane
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Jul 18, 2024, 12:55 PM
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rhetoric we've heard for the past 8 or so years. This is very simple, it's not some conspiracy to silence people who oppose Trump.
This reminds me of during covid when there was a bio lab down the street from where it broke out, but people wanted to pretend it made more sense that it magically came from bat soup. Makes me think many people have just gone totally crazy.
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All-In [43499]
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It could have been
Jul 18, 2024, 2:13 PM
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But it's not looking like that now. Too many people here jumped to that conclusion based on talking points. And yes, there is a group here who just wants to shut down any criticism of Trump.
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CU Medallion [56755]
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They still don't know where it came from.
Jul 18, 2024, 2:27 PM
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I read a really well researched, well written article from the NY Times that argued strongly in favor of the lab leak theory and in the end they still said, "We can't prove it." I genuinely wanted to be persuaded and after reading it I was back where I started.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/06/03/opinion/covid-lab-leak.html
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110%er [9988]
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Of the brazillian square miles in China - the COVID outbreak starts right
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Jul 18, 2024, 4:05 PM
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beside their COVID research facility. Maybe it can't be proved that it started there - but the location where it started and the fact that the facility was uncooperative puts it at about 99.99%.
Thread-jack complete! : - )
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110%er [9864]
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Re: The motive still hasn't been established, but...
Jul 18, 2024, 1:05 PM
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the democrats want to kill trump and used the secret service to make it happen
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All-In [44938]
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Go on...***
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Jul 18, 2024, 1:12 PM
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All-In [43499]
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All-In [32380]
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All-In [44938]
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Even if the shooter didn't explicitly state in any communications that he
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Jul 18, 2024, 1:10 PM
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was influenced by the political rhetoric, he could have still been (consciously or subconsciously) influenced by it.
For me, the point is that there is no place for false and drastic statements about any public figure like this, whether they be Republican or Democrat. I don't like Trump, and I won't be voting for him, but the rhetoric about him being a "threat to democracy" and comparing him to Hitler is ludicrous. Those statements are dramatic and emotional, and are intended to generate hatred for the guy. Language like that has no place, especially from elected politicians and prominent media members.
I feel the same way about comments made about Biden.
We can all do better, and I hope that this situation will truly result in people being more civil about their political opponents. People are influenced by what is said.
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110%er [5177]
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Re: The motive still hasn't been established, but...
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Jul 18, 2024, 1:20 PM
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I don't necessarily disagree with the OPs premise that we don't yet really know what set off this person, but let's not pretend that if some nutjob took a shot at Biden the OP and every other leftist on here wouldn't be falling all over themselves to blame it on Trump and white nationalists. Your crocodile tears are fooling nobody.
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All-In [29099]
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Some would, no doubt
Jul 18, 2024, 1:26 PM
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Would they be right?
If not, then the point stands both ways.
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All-In [43499]
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They would, probably
Jul 18, 2024, 4:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: The motive still hasn't been established, but... ] |
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Just as some leftists came up with the crazy notion that Trump staged this.
But on this board, y'all took it too far within 24 hours of the shooting, and yes, you are lumped into that.
Perhaps next time sit on your crazy assumptions and wait for information.
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All-In [27171]
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I agree ... it was a kid hidden in the shadows that wanted his 15 minutes of
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Jul 18, 2024, 1:31 PM
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fame ...
The real problem is the Iranians / Chinese / Russian agents that have come across the porous open southern border.
Thanks Joe.
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110%er [5860]
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You pick your opinion based on what you want
Jul 18, 2024, 2:04 PM
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to believe. You are speculating, so just admit it.
What is not speculation, however, is that information 'warfare' works. That's a fact.
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All-In [43499]
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Of course I'm speculating
Jul 18, 2024, 4:09 PM
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Which is why I am not making a definitive statement. But based on the facts given, it's leaning more towards a crazy kid who wanted infamy.
YOU speculated that it was rhetoric within 24 hours of the shooting. YOU had ZERO information to go on that proved that. YOU were a frothing idiot who didn't wait for facts. YOU are part of the problem.
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Hall of Famer [23774]
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If only both sides would play by your rules.
Jul 18, 2024, 2:07 PM
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Your post, which I agree with - don't jump to conclusions prematurely - would be far more effective if the left were not guilty of doing the same thing you point out the right is now doing.
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All-In [43499]
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I agree; there were stupid leftist comments too
Jul 18, 2024, 2:14 PM
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Mainly claiming that Trump and his team staged this attempt, which is ludicrous.
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CU Medallion [56755]
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People demand answers immediately and if they can't have them
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Jul 18, 2024, 2:22 PM
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they'll make them up. This isn't limited to politics. Just look at the Boston marathon bombing where reddit was ready to lynch someone who had absolutely nothing to do with it. Someone here was just saying yesterday or the day before how twitter cracks cases faster than the media or police or some goofyass #### like that. It's a combination of instant gratification and loss of faith in institutions and expertise.
The 2017 shooting at the Harvest music festival in Vegas was the worst mass shooting in American history. 60 people were killed, over 800 were wounded. Know why he did it? Neither does anyone else.
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CU Medallion [56755]
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Athletic Dir [882]
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Re: The motive still hasn't been established, but...
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Jul 18, 2024, 6:51 PM
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His search history implies he was looking for an opportunity on either Trump or Biden for the infamy before he died. The outdoor rallies that Trump keeps doing against the advice and requests from the Secret Service are a real security problem. I don't know if he's going to rethink that position. He should, but I don't have much faith in his judgement on anything. You don't get accused of rape or sexual assault by so many women by having good judgement.
The Trump campaign prioritized both parents, even the mother who is registered Democrat (because of being a likely gun-rights proponent, per reports). The father was rated in the top 20 of all BP voters as a likely Trump voter. That means they were receiving robocalls in 2016, 2020, and 2024. There are records of the people who went to certain Oz and Fetterman events in 2022, the only time the kid voted. Even if he only went to meet JFK Jr. (aka Vinnie Fusca). That's where I would dig next - though clearly he didn't donate or buy any merchandise (under his own name).
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