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Replies: 53
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Ring of Honor [23085]
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Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:05 AM
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The big divide between Clemson fans who feel fine about our defense and the ones who are worried about it seems to be how significant it is that most our struggles seem to happen when we put the backups in. The argument is that it shows that at our full roster is good enough to give us a solid defense. This is a compelling argument to me, but it doesn't fully satisfy my doubts about this defense heading into the 2nd half of the year.
First, our starting defense is the one that UGA made adjustments on and thoroughly dominated in the 2nd half of their game. As awesome as it looked in the first half, it looked that helpless in the 2nd.
UGA had 5 drives in the 2nd half (not counting the one they ran the clock out) and here is how they went...
6 plays, 75 yards, touchdown. 12.5 yards per play
8 plays, 75 yards, touchdown. 9.4 yards per play
3 and out stop, -1 yard
5 plays, 54 yards, touchdown. 10 yards a play
5 plays, 78 yards, touchdown. 15.6 yards per play
That is about as thoroughly dominated as a defense can be. That was a total collapse. Yes the offense deserves a lot of blame for the defense getting worn, but even a worn defense should be detectable on the field. We were outcoached and outplayed to an extreme degree.
Next we played App State, which is usually a solid team. They are bad this year. They have a losing record and lost to South Alabama 48-14. South Alabama held them to 14, we held them to 20. And 13 of those 20 points came in the first half, against starters. The remaining 7 was scored on a 75 yard drive to open the 3rd quarter. Our backups shut them out in the 4th quarter. They average 26 points a game so we held them slightly under their average against really weak competition.
Next up we dominated NC State. Classic case of them putting most of their points up against our backups as they scored 21 points in the 4th quarter when the game was out of reach. But there's a problem. NC State scored more on us than on any other FBS team they played. Tennessee held them to 10. We gave up 35.Does Louisiana Tech and Northern Illinois have better talent on D than our 2nd string? They held them to fewer points than we did. If we just look at NC State's first half drives...
33 yards on 6 plays (5.5 yards per play) and PUNT
Next drive they fumbled on their 2nd play after losing 7 yards on the first
3rd drive they average 3 yards a play (good for us) and fumble again
4th drive they drive 44 yards (6.3 yds per play) and miss a field goal
5th drive them drive 71 yards on 7.9 yards a play and score a touchdown.
The final 2 drives of the half we dominate them
The first 2 of the 3rd quarter they drive 30 yards and fail on a 4th down conversion and the 2nd one the drive 75 yards in 4 plays and score a touchdown.
Then we shut them down before their 3 dominating TD drives (over 10 yards per play) to close the game in garbage time.
Next is Stanford. They are 2-6. They only put up 14 points against us. But guess what... for the next 3 weeks in a row, Virginia Tech, Notre Dame and SMU held them to less than that. 7,7 and 10. If we look at Stanford's first half drives we see they were moving the ball before we forced interceptions on two of their 1st three drives. Stanford fumbled on their first drive after only moving 9 yards but moved 7.5 yards per play on the next drive for 68 yards before another turnover. Then on the next one, they were moving 9 yards a play before their 2nd interception. Forcing turnovers is huge, but it isn't something you can count on against better teams. We shut them down on the next 3 drives, but their last drive of the first half they marched down the field and finally scored a touchdown on our starters. 10.7 yards a play and 75 yards.
Nothing to pick apart against FSU. We had a good showing. Problem is FSU is 1-7 and an absolute dumpster fire. They had a QB change that week. They have scored 16 or less in every game except 1. Memphis held them to 12, before they switched QB's. Against Duke the next week, the FSU QB broke a record and turned it over on 3 CONSECUTIVE plays. They scored 16 on Duke. We held them to 13, which is good. But again, we played well against a dumpster fire. Not our fault they suck... but they do.
Next up was (now) 4-4 Wake. I thought we played a very good game on both sides of the ball. One thing to mention here though, regarding the narrative mentioned earlier, the backups shut them out while all Wake's points (just 2 touchdowns) came in the 1st half. So the backups outdid the starters here, but everyone played well. Wake beat us in the 1st quarter, but we destroyed them for the remainder of the game. Wake is mediocre but not terrible. I felt we were improving as a defense here. We held them to 5 yards per pass and 3.1 per rush. Those are solid stats!
Last up is another 4-4 team UVA. UVA took the lead on us but we tied it halfway through the 2nd and took the lead right before the half and never gave it back. Speaking of our starters performance, they scored on their first 2 drives but after a long, methodical 80 yard drive (5.7 yards per play) we held them to a field goal. And their 2nd drive may have been a touchdown, but I should mention they had a short field after a (now-unusual) Int from Cade. Then our starters made adjustments and shut them down until garbage time. I did notice some of the starters were playing during some of the 3 touchdowns UVA easily scored on us toward the end of the game.
In conclusion, though there are multiple examples of the starters doing mostly well and then the backups doing terribly, there are about as many examples of this not happening. I think this tells us that our issues on defense are not so simply dismissed as 100% depth. I think there is justification for those who feel like our defense is good, but I also see justification for those who are convinced our defense is not as good as most people think.
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National Champion [7996]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:25 AM
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I’ve been classifying the defense as Jekyll and Hyde. Your analysis explains this theory in depth. Certain drives and plays they look like an elite defense. Certain drives they can’t get out of their own way. It’s the inconsistency that is killing them. It starts with the coordinator and ends with the head coach. Perhaps Goodwin becomes that guy. I just hate waiting.
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Tiger Spirit [9759]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:35 AM
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Too much to read but we start playing teams with pulses this week and the defense will have chances to show how good they are. Wes knows what he is doing and I am confident the defense will pass the test.
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All-Pro [762]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:45 AM
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Good analysis all around. I think what it may all be pointing to is that this defense is good, not great. If you go with the eye test, the offense looks like our teams from 2015-2020, and the stats from the past few games back that up. I understand we haven't played anyone, but again we're just talking about the eye test, which is the reason we are ranked in the top 10.
On defense, we just don't look like those defenses from 2015 to 2020, at least not consistently, and consistency is what separates good from great. We do have a lot of young players, and I think we will only get better, but you have to balance that with the fact that we also haven't faced a stern test since week one. Pitt and Louisville have top 25 offenses. We will know far more after those games.
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Orange Beast [6454]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Oct 29, 2024, 1:27 PM
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I keep seeing these post about defense from the playoff runs. Those Ds have up crazy numbers in plenty of games. It's not like they were perfect. Maybe 1 of those years our D was crazy good and didn't have a let down game.
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Ring of Honor [23085]
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I don't think anyone is upset that they are not perfect.***
Oct 29, 2024, 3:59 PM
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Legend [7057]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Oct 29, 2024, 3:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense. ] |
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I agree. Very thorough analysis. But makes me even more nervous going into these next 3 games. 😂
As I’ve said before, if the defense gets rolled the next 3 weeks, Wes better start saving cardboard boxes. Dabo won’t keep him around if this is what knocks us out of playoffs.
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Heisman Winner [86073]
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Our lbs seem pretty weak at stepping up into
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:37 AM
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the holes and plugging the run. Every team we've played has had success running inside early in the first quarter. Are they being blocked or are they simple out of position. Both Carter and Woodazz have made a lot of plays on the outside and on sacks, but don't remember a time either have stepped up in the hole and stopped someone for no gain ala Kendall Joseph or Stalski.
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Ring of Honor [21277]
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Re: Our lbs seem pretty weak at stepping up into
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:51 AM
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Their run fits have been really, really bad.
I love Carter's range, for instance, but at plain old-fashioned plugging the A or B gap...no.
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CU Medallion [19358]
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Thanks for stating my thoughts as I'm watching live games Q
Oct 29, 2024, 3:02 PM
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quozzel
I see both Woodaz and Carter with great pursuit and also too many 8-yard tackles on up the middle plays ... it makes me believe with more reps Sammy Brown would/will fill those gaps better.
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Offensive Star [344]
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Re: Our lbs seem pretty weak at stepping up into
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Oct 29, 2024, 11:04 AM
[ in reply to Our lbs seem pretty weak at stepping up into ] |
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Stalski played under a much better DC, Venables. We need to quit makes excuses for Goodwin. Weak is weak, and strong is strong. He doesn't have a clue. I've seen Great Defensive Coordinators in Pro and College, and this guy is abyssmal.
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Clemson Icon [24892]
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Tell 'em nothing since 1969 coot. No one knows losing better than you.
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Oct 29, 2024, 1:16 PM
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Game Changer [1764]
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Re: Our lbs seem pretty weak at stepping up into
Oct 29, 2024, 2:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: Our lbs seem pretty weak at stepping up into ] |
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Stalski played under a much better DC, Venables. We need to quit makes excuses for Goodwin. Weak is weak, and strong is strong. He doesn't have a clue. I've seen Great Defensive Coordinators in Pro and College, and this guy is abyssmal.
Abyssmal? Really? Maybe not as good as Venebles, few are, but he's done a pretty good job, we do not have the beasts upfront like we did in the championship years.
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Ring of Honor [23085]
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Our defense isn't abysmal by any stretch. I believe we are still pretty good,
Oct 29, 2024, 4:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: Our lbs seem pretty weak at stepping up into ] |
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but there are more holes than in Venables defenses. And they might be big enough this year to keep us out of the playoffs just when the offense finally woke up.
I don't think we are bad at all. Just more room for improvement than we were spoiled by under Venables.
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All-In [10633]
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Clemson Icon [24892]
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Legend [6644]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:39 AM
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Folks are saying it's the 3rd and 4th string that's giving it up, but unless someone has snap counts that's just conjecture. I suspect, as you said, that's the 1st team has some underwhelming moments.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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When you scoare a lot, quickly a lot of times, you give the other teams
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:55 AM
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offense more at bats. Are we as good as a few years ago? No. Is it still a good defense? Yes.
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Tiger Spirit [9956]
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Re: When you scoare a lot, quickly a lot of times, you give the other teams
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Oct 29, 2024, 12:35 PM
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offense more at bats. Are we as good as a few years ago? No. Is it still a good defense? Yes.
Fair point on the number of at bats. Our D is good but not great. We are nowhere near as talented as the 2016 or 2018 defenses. We have a lot of great position coaches on that side of the ball so hopefully we can improve as the season moves along.
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Orange Beast [6454]
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Re: When you scoare a lot, quickly a lot of times, you give the other teams
Oct 29, 2024, 1:28 PM
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Yall remember how many points Pitt scored against us in 2016? What about the Louisville game?
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Yes***
Oct 29, 2024, 2:55 PM
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Offensive Star [344]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:55 AM
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Nice commentary on Clemson's chronology of games played so far. At htis stage of the season, it is clear that the Offense is covering up the flaws of the Defense. Thank God we're averaging close to 40 ppg. and
not stuck in Florida State's woeful point production per game (13.0). The only game FSU has a chance to win on their schedule is Charleston Southern, which leaves them at 2-10 for the season. What a difference a year makes. back to Goodwin, who is the immenent blame for this defenses' weaknesses. Dabo has to take the heat here as well. He hired him.
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Orange Beast [6369]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 11:40 AM
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Appreciate you taking the time to break down this info and agree our D is good not great yet. We will learn a lot this week as UofL is very good offensively and we need to bring our A game.
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Tiger Titan [46592]
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I think our defense is good, not great.
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Oct 29, 2024, 11:46 AM
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Certainly not elite.
We should do fine against most of the teams on our schedule, but I don't think we've seen anything from our defense thus far to suggest that we can contain an elite offense (such as the kind we are likely to face in the playoffs).
Of course, this is all conjecture because we haven't played a very tough schedule. The only good team we played is Georgia, and they blew us out. I don't think their offense is elite, but it's certainly better than the others we've faced.
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Clemson Icon [24892]
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Tell 'em nothing since 1969 coot. No one knows losing better than you.
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Oct 29, 2024, 1:17 PM
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Asst Coach [822]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Oct 29, 2024, 11:47 AM
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What was the offensive performance for this game?
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National Champion [8049]
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53rd and 61st.
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Oct 29, 2024, 12:47 PM
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We are 61st in points allowed.
53rd in yards per game.
No doubt the defense has a lot of room to grow. As someone who had a family member "not get offered" by Clemson; who went to play at Wake, I can tell you from 1st hand accounts: "the Clemson game is different"! Clemson is hated currently for not only it's success on the field; but also the culture people "are tired of hearing about". So, when players who everybody else salivates over doesn't get an offer(not my cousin at Wake) it really motivates them. Plenty of 4 and 5-star players who were never going to come to Clemson anyway - "never got an offer or interest from Clemson"!
Which in the players minds gets translated into "disrespect"! Clemson thinks they are too good for me!
So, when teams play Clemson, and again this is from people from multiple schools I've heard this from. They get a little more pep in their step. It's an opportunity to show Clemson "what they missed out on". Not to mention in recent years; we have been many of these schools Super Bowl.
You can dismiss this; but I hear it too much/too often. They really see Clemson as the uppidy bunch that needs to be taught a lesson. I think in short; teams play above their skill level. Or at least, above the intensity level as a group when they play Clemson.
Look at Virginia post Clemson playing a U of Non-Compliance team looking like a middle of the pack FCS team.
The post Clemson effect is a real thing. Something that has been documented on TNET for years! And, it's why we: in my opinion were ready when we played teams with better on paper talent in the playoffs. We had gotten A-game efforts from our so called weak schedule - so it prepared us well.
Wes Goodwin led a top 10 defense last year when Clemson was not as explosive on offense. He didn't forget how to coach over a year. We are going to be better as some of the young players come around.
I think Woodaz and Carter are the same type player. Carter is playing out of position to me. We need a more heavy handed L.B. for run fits. Our DT group was all rated high - but they all are fairly new to starting. We rotate DT so frequently; I just think they need more reps and will only get better as the season goes on.
I think we will be fine on defense in other words.
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Rival Killer [2628]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 1:08 PM
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That was then with the Georgia game. Not too much you can take from that game at this point. Things have changed and hopefully we have improved.
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110%er [3673]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 1:27 PM
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By quarters scoring defense ranks
1st Q 3
2nd Q 44
3rd Q 23
4th Q 119
The only one worrisome is 2nd Q.
We know why 4th is high.
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Ring of Honor [23085]
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Good stat***
Oct 29, 2024, 3:58 PM
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National Champion [8049]
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By Quarter Is "Very Telling"!
Oct 29, 2024, 5:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense. ] |
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By quarters scoring defense ranks
1st Q 3
2nd Q 44
3rd Q 23
4th Q 119
The only one worrisome is 2nd Q.
We know why 4th is high.
In most of our games this year; "in a few of our blowout victories it was over by the 2nd qtr"! What happens on the sideline is; everyone starts to lose focus and begin to "relax"!
Which is one of the places I would say has earned some scrutiny for sure. The game isn't over until it's over. How many more times will Coaches/Players/Fans have to see these come from behind victories before "that killa-instinct" kicks in and a firm size 12.5 boot is placed on the neck of the opposing team? If you're a backup; getting in the game with plenty of time is your chance to show you deserve more p/t. Some of our backups on defense this year though have played like; they are cool with being the backup.
No sense of urgency to "show what I can do"! And, go out there and make plays and make sure you show the coaches you know your assignments.
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Commissioner [1268]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 1:13 PM
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So you doin all this monumental thinking while you at work?
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Ring of Honor [23085]
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Are you some work efficiency patrol officer?***
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Oct 29, 2024, 1:21 PM
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Paw Warrior [4709]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 1:15 PM
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Holyshitt Solid,
A well-thought out and backed up post on Tigernet. AND a reasonable and moderate conclusion in the face of conflicting data. Thank-you for shining a light in all of this emotional darkness.
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CU Guru [1596]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 1:18 PM
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Great summary and I agree with the Jeckyl and Hyde analogy. It seems we can play strong when we "want to". Unfortunately, we sometimes don't feel the urgency to "want to".
Let's hope the open date came at the RIGHT time for our defense. The talent is there, they just need to put it all together.
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Orange Beast [6454]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Oct 29, 2024, 1:25 PM
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No defense is going out and holding teams to 0 points every game. It seems like some fans expect that from our defense and it's ridiculous imo. Sure our D can improve and I'm confident it will. Doesn't mean it hasn't been very solid so far tho.
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Head Coach [963]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Oct 29, 2024, 1:32 PM
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Those are alot of words...too bad I didn't read 'em 👍
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Ring of Honor [23085]
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What made you think anyone cares what you choose to read?***
Oct 29, 2024, 3:57 PM
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Offensive Star [331]
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Re: What made you think anyone cares what you choose to read?***
Oct 29, 2024, 4:11 PM
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or can read.
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Orange Elite [5551]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Oct 29, 2024, 1:33 PM
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No defense has ever been truly great without solid 2nd string guys. Thats why our defense under Brent was so phenomenal. Do you remember opposing coaches saying that Clemson’s 2bd string often looking more the part than the opposition 1st string.
That and the lack of aggressiveness in our defensive play calling makes me believe we have some struggles in our future against a competent offense
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Rival Killer [3057]
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It's probably some of both******
Oct 29, 2024, 4:00 PM
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Asst Coach [889]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Oct 29, 2024, 4:16 PM
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Would you say that the starting defense has improved since the first of the year? I would.
Would you expect to see additional improvement over the course of the next five games? Most probably.
As with the offensive and team trajectory over Dabo’s tenure, did not the most improvement occur in November? Yes.
Maybe this year will be an outlier and we’ll only regress from now to December, but that’s not likely.
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CU Medallion [19043]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 29, 2024, 7:38 PM
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I'm concerned about our secondary against better throwing QBs. We will be tested the next few games. Our DL needs to apply pressure to help out.
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Tiger Spirit [9491]
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UGA is the only good team that we've played. I think the D shows potential
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Oct 30, 2024, 6:32 AM
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but, are maybe lacking the depth needed.
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Commissioner [1209]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Oct 30, 2024, 6:52 AM
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When we switch from man to man and go zone, or hybrid of, our LBs and DBs get lost and that's when we see the big plays happen.
Other than that, we good. Obviously they will get better, but it was exposed against GA and VA.
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Head Coach [976]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Oct 30, 2024, 7:36 AM
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Nice write up.
We tend to remember our defense under Coach V as though it constantly dominated. It didn’t. Trevor’s junior year against usc, our 1st string offense kept having to score to keep us ahead. We couldn’t stop their offense.
Wes isn’t Brent, but (in my opinion) he’s doing a good job.
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Ring of Honor [23085]
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I'll go on record and say that we will learn alot about this topic vs Louisville
Oct 30, 2024, 2:59 PM
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one way or another.
If we look good against them on defense then that will be solid evidence that our defense is good and that some of the worry is unfounded. It would tell me that we are likely on solid ground. Louisville certainly isn't elite, but their offense has a pulse and they have played good teams and scored points.
On the other side of the coin, if my fears about this game become reality then it will be obvious enough to everyone that there are problems. Hardly anyone will debate it if they bully us.
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Ring of Honor [23085]
TigerPulse: 100%
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My worst fears were wrong. It was worse.***
Nov 2, 2024, 11:45 PM
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TigerNet Champion [117862]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Oct 30, 2024, 6:59 PM
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The lack pf depth at linebacker and Strongsdoeend is our Achilles heel on Defense. Carter and Woddaz play pretty much every snap, we are different defense without Peter Woods and I seem to recall Khalil Barnes getting around 80 snaps against FSU. These guys got gassed against uGA, we never bothered with the back-ups.
Anyway, the past 2 seasons we have rarely put up enough points to get playing time for the reserves, so nothing bad can come of it, it gives them an opportunity to improve and hopefully be a serviceable 2nd unit by the end of the season. But again, I do not think we have the talent sitting on the bench at linebacker. After Sammy Brown, the production drops off immensely. We might as well just go ahead and start calling Barnes a linebacker because we play nickle so much.
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Ring of Honor [23085]
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1st half is strong evidence our defense is nowhere near as good as many thought
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Nov 2, 2024, 9:21 PM
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The most obvious stat is that we are giving up over TEN YARDS PER RUSH for the entire half. That is always proof of a shoddy defense. There is no way around acknowledging that.
The offense needed to put up more points but it is not to blame for this either.
I was already concerned about this defense (coaching) but the problem is worse than I thought. I hope we see some extreme adjustments in the 2nd half.
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Top TigerNet [30582]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
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Nov 2, 2024, 9:22 PM
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Ok. Is it Goodwin or is it Goodwin? Just come out and say it
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Ring of Honor [23085]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I don't believe he will improve our defense much at this point.
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Nov 2, 2024, 11:41 PM
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All the Venables has drained out and it's Goodwin's personality that is reflected by our defense now. He never sounded like a strong leader of men to me.
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National Champion [7812]
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Nov 2, 2024, 11:45 PM
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Man this post aged great.
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Legend [7048]
TigerPulse: 98%
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Re: Looking closer at the performance of the defense.
Nov 2, 2024, 11:47 PM
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Take away turnovers and this defense is really bad.
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