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Rival Killer [2851]
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Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 9:50 AM
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We are down to the 20th ranked team in recruiting for the 2025 class. Only 13 players signed.
This is not sustainable and I understand that Dabo and staff know this. That being said, why are we losing players? We aren’t a poor program. We can afford to pay some players.
If Dabo is refusing to pay 💰 incoming recruits then we are going to fall off quick.
Thoughts?
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Rival Killer [2833]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 9:58 AM
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I would be concerned if we didn’t just bring in some talent that we did. The Wesco’s, Brown’s, and Moore’s. We lost 2 defensive linemen, both are trending to instate schools. One to Duke and one to UNC. I think they just offered a crazy high number. It’s not like they are jumping ship to go play for UGA or Bama. I think Dabo will not let us fail.
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Rival Killer [2851]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:04 AM
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That’s another thing that blows my mind. Leaving Clemson to go play football at basketball schools. The money can’t be that much better to get your heads beat in and never win a championship. Priorities I guess.
I trust Dabo to handle business but 13 recruits in a season seems extremely low.
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Legend [6888]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
Sep 22, 2024, 12:43 PM
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I agree it is concerning but I think you answered part of your question. If these players don’t prioritize winning do we really want them here? I wouldn’t. Now if they were leaving us for UGA, OSU, Bama, etc then I’d be more concerned. We’d be outbid for a good player who does care about winning. That’s what concerns me because I think that’s already happening.
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Rival Killer [2851]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
Sep 22, 2024, 7:11 PM
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Good point.
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Rival Killer [2851]
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Ring of Honor [23631]
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Thoughts ?
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Sep 22, 2024, 9:58 AM
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I see you same DA's whining bout recruiting this time every year and SOMEHOW Dabo pull a rabbit out the at ,while your kind find something else to be"concerened" ,whine about
Concern is the word for those that whine, they think somehow ,if they say they are concerned, IT JUST MEANS MORE.
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Rival Killer [2851]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Re: Thoughts ?
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:04 AM
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You’re a clown.
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CU Medallion [20751]
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He takes it personal when you have an honest discussion***
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Sep 22, 2024, 12:38 PM
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Valley Legend [12619]
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Because we don't view recruiting as an auction. Nor should we.***
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:01 AM
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Tiger Titan [46330]
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Okay, then realistically speaking, how do you propose we improve our recruiting?
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Sep 22, 2024, 3:45 PM
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We already have one of the highest paid head coaches in college football, as well as one of the highest paid assistant coaching staffs. We have outstanding facilities. We have won at a high level within the last decade. We have put a lot of players in the NFL. We have a TON to offer.
Dabo and his followers can talk all they want about Clemson family and culture and all that. And those things are great. But the reality is that players can get paid now, it’s legal, and it’s happening. If we don’t embrace that and instead draw what I feel is an unreasonable line in the sand regarding what we will and won’t do in recruiting, then perhaps we shouldn’t field a division I football team.
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Dynasty Maker [3455]
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Re: Okay, then realistically speaking, how do you propose we improve our recruiting?
Sep 22, 2024, 8:20 PM
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Does Clemson Basketball participate in NIL payment bidding wars for HS and TP players? Honest question. I’d like to know if Brownell is doing it just like the other schools.
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Top TigerNet [30346]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:02 AM
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So you're concerned we don't believe in participating in bidding wars for players? smh
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Rival Killer [2851]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:05 AM
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No, I’m concerned college football is headed to the point where we won’t have a choice. I have defended Dabos transfer and recruiting stance.
I am just voicing my concerns over only having 13 recruits signed and being ranked 20th in recruiting.
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Tiger Spirit [9854]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:21 AM
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No, I’m concerned college football is headed to the point where we won’t have a choice. I have defended Dabos transfer and recruiting stance.
I am just voicing my concerns over only having 13 recruits signed and being ranked 20th in recruiting.
Your concerns are valid as our recruiting is trending down. The landscape has changed and guys are following the money. The only bright spot on the horizon is the settlement where schools pay recruits directly and absurd NIL payments which cannot be supported by a valid business case will be illegal. Of course the judge has not signed off on it but I am hopeful as this is the only way to keep a competitive balance. Until the case is settled will like be a rough road. If the judge decrees a free for all where only the richest schools can compete then it will be a rough road for a long time unless we change our approach.
The above are comments are statements of fact and not advocating for any particular solution.
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Ultimate Tiger [37017]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 11:24 AM
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Hear ye, Hear ye! Well said, and agree 1000%
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CU Medallion [20751]
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Orange Phenom [14846]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:06 AM
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It’s increasingly getting to be about the money. Among major colleges where would our alumni base be rated on numbers of alumni and on the overall wealth of that alumni?
I can’t blame the kids that come from nothing, many of whom will never play real pro football, take the highest bidder they can otherwise comfortably live with.
I don’t see this getting better for Clemson. The numbers just don’t add up for the numbers of alumni to contribute to pay players or for the numbers of very wealthy alumni compared to say a Texas, Texas A&M, Ohio St or UGA.
The college recruiting process has changed negatively for Clemson and unless you and every Clemson fan and alum wants to pony up way more money, Clemson’s situation is unlikely to improve.
I’m not willing to pay any college athlete directly, so wherever things level off to, I’m ok with it.
This isn’t a Dabo issue.
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Valley Legend [12619]
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This is a ###- good summary of the situation. Of the sport.***
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:09 AM
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Paw Master [16681]
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Re: This is a ###- good summary of the situation. Of the sport.***
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:18 AM
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Indeed it is! no +1
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Paw Master [16681]
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National Champion [7786]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:20 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious concerns about recruiting ] |
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We’re ranked 17th in NIL dollars collected and last in NIL $ spent. Our alumni base does well in fundraising and donations. We haven’t had to borrow a dime for football improvements. We’ve spent a ton. Saying the dollars aren’t there just don’t float.
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Tiger Spirit [9854]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:53 AM
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We’re ranked 17th in NIL dollars collected and last in NIL $ spent. Our alumni base does well in fundraising and donations. We haven’t had to borrow a dime for football improvements. We’ve spent a ton. Saying the dollars aren’t there just don’t float.
Can you provide a reference for the stats you provided? Not saying they are wrong but would like to see the data. FWIW the top schools (Texas, Ohio, UGA, etc) have a football NIL budget (reportedly) in excess of $20M. Other smaller schools like Duke for example, has a wealthy alumni base and have stepped up. I believe our NIL, for all programs, is +/- $5M. So the money is not currently available. Feel free to provide data showing my numbers are inaccurate
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All-TigerNet [6049]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
Sep 22, 2024, 12:05 PM
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To add insult to injury, the NFL Clemson Tigers appear to no longer be giving back to IPTAY.
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Tiger Spirit [9682]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 11:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious concerns about recruiting ] |
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NIL dollars and direct payment from athletic club supporting alumni are dissimilar in important ways.
Contributions from us to a ‘NIL fund’ are somewhat vague, whereas contributions for direct payment of player(s) are easily understood.
I don’t know how the part of the NIL that gets funded by a specific business that gets the ‘advertising’ benefit from the NIL payout to specific player(s) gets paid by the business beneficiary itself, and how much of that money comes from ‘regular’ donors that get no advertising or PR benefit.
Direct payment to players eliminates that doubt in the eyes of the donor.
As for the NIL disappearing if direct payment by the school and / or the school’s athletic booster club to players is concerned, then it will have no difference on the existence of a NIL type program, other than that the NIL component of the money paid to players will get smaller. This is because a student athlete will not be prohibited from having a job regardless of how much the university & / or booster club pays him.
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Orange Elite [5233]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Once NIL becomes secondary and IPTAY can pay players legally
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:34 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious concerns about recruiting ] |
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Things will even out for Clemson. That way Iptay contributions help Iptay members and Iptay in turn helps pay the talent. The big issue is Iptay has had to compete for contributions with NIL consortiums siphoning $ for that model.
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Asst Coach [888]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:10 AM
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It’s exactly what you said. Dabo has been clear about being unwilling to pay big $ to guys who haven’t proved they deserve it. I’m concerned about recruiting as well, but perhaps contending for titles again will entice some high-level guys to come back
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Standout [203]
TigerPulse: 54%
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:12 AM
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Trust Dabo and keep your thoughts to yourself you sound like a worrier and not a Clemson fan
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National Champion [7786]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:16 AM
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If you go back and look Dabo’s average class rating is around 15. What matters is the four years later reranking. For example, class of 2016, ranked 15th. The rerank after becoming the winningest class in college football was three.
I’ve had concerns. I do have some concerns. The proof shows during garbage time. Years past, garbage defense didn’t drop off much. There’s a HUGE drop off last three years. We haven’t had much comfortable garbage time except this year. The quality depth (lack of) is definitely showing.
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Tiger Spirit [9682]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
Sep 22, 2024, 11:26 AM
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I agree with respect that the ‘garbage time’ performance from the players on the lower half of the depth chart (starting early 3rd Qtr) was manifestly worse than the performance of the starters.
I don’t agree that the poorer play was due to a talent differential between the young players vs the talent of the older players.
Playing experience matters. Exposure time to coaching matters. Physical development matters especially so in FB; younger players have had less time to develop physically than the older players.
(*). Games like those against App State and NC State are profoundly valuable for accelerating the development of younger players. The feedback loop to each of the younger players as to their current deficiencies is smacked right into each of their faces. It’s no longer just a ‘trust the coaches and their judgement’ obscure reason why the younger player isn’t playing.
Sure, there are exceptions. We see P.Woods, TJ Parker, Wesco, Moore, show out immediately. Those guys are the exception. Blake Miller got schooled in his FR year when thrusted into the starting lineup because better players weren’t in front of him. Same with CK2 last year (his SO year).
It takes time for most players to get there.
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Ring of Honor [23639]
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I'm not worried. Next year Burley and Green RS Soph, Thompson and Shuler RS Fr,
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:17 AM
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Adams true freshman. With 5 talented guys ahead of him, each with at least 3 years left, it was going to be awhile before he got to play much at all, probably by his third year. Eason has done an excellent job of evaluating talent and coaching it up. Also, does Payton Page have another year if he wants it?
The fact that he went to UNC yesterday to watch James Madison put up 70 on that defense was hilarious.
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Rival Killer [2851]
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Re: I'm not worried. Next year Burley and Green RS Soph, Thompson and Shuler RS Fr,
Sep 22, 2024, 10:26 AM
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Yeah, I got a chuckle out of that myself.
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Valley Legend [13014]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:19 AM
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The good news I guess is there are only 2 ACC teams ranked ahead of us (Miami and GT). I know everyone is all hunky dory and feeling great right now because we beat pathetic App State and NC State but it is concerning especially when we saw the drop off yesterday with the reserves in the 2nd half.
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Paw Master [16681]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:24 AM
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My observation is there always is a drop off with the reserve players, on pretty much every team. That’s why they are reserves, in most cases, and not the starters.
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Ring of Honor [22967]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:19 AM
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We need big high-school classes since we aren't bringing in portal players, but we have the 2nd-smallest 2025 class in the top 50. 13 recruits will only be enough to replace the guys who portal out, but we also have to replace the guys who run out of eligibility or go pro. Scholarships are also increasing from 85 to 105 next year.
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Rival Killer [2851]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:29 AM
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The scholarship increase is on of my main concerns, I forgot to mention that in the OP. I hate it but Clemson may not have a choice about dipping its toes in the portal. We shall see. Interesting times.
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Ring of Honor [23639]
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One thing that larger rosters won't change is the willingness of talented
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:34 AM
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highly rated players to sit on the bench and wait patiently for their opportunity in year 3 or 4.
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National Champion [7827]
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Exactly - it will be the same type player that is a walkon
Sep 22, 2024, 6:51 PM
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For us currently - just another added cost
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National Champion [7827]
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And now there will be 15 or so less guys at Clemson
Sep 22, 2024, 6:54 PM
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that can “walkon” based on this rule. Which is another tragedy of this situation.
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Orange Beast [6548]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:33 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious concerns about recruiting ] |
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This. People want to act like there isn’t a problem because the water isn’t boiling yet, but make no mistake, the burner has already been turned from simmer to 10.
Dabo is going to either adjust, or he’ll step away in the next 5 years. If it’s the latter, it’ll take years to recover, as the cupboard will likely be bare. He doesn’t have to take portal players, but that means we HAVE to get good HS players to be relevant.
What happens remains to be seen. I think his coaches will help him see a new path once this keeps happening. If you see coaches leave however, that won’t be a good sign.
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All-TigerNet [6004]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:27 AM
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When kids look at the roster of a prospective school and they see loaded freshman and sophomore talent at their position, they realize they are not going to play immediately, so they move on. Look at the Clemson DL talent and emerging players who are freshmen and sophs. We are loaded there.
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Orange Beast [6367]
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lol
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:35 AM
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this team is so young and talented
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Paw Master [17238]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:36 AM
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Our 2017 class was 14 players and ranked 22nd. Every player in that class who stuck around went to 4 straight playoffs. If you go over the recruiting data Clemson did better from 2015-2020 with a lower average rated player than he has from 2021-2023 with a higher average player rating. I believe Clemson did better when player evaluation was a more significant part of the process and we weren’t just grabbing the highest rated player like say 2020 (#2 ranked class) and 2021 (#6 ranked class). Those are the best two back-to-back classes we’ve had on paper. Dabo has earned far more trust than any of the ranking services and it appears we may be seeing that vision come to fruition again this season
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Ring of Honor [22967]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 10:47 AM
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We weren't losing a dozen players to the portal every year back in 2017-2020.
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Paw Master [17238]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
Sep 22, 2024, 3:32 PM
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Womp womp. This is a complete fallacy. We’ve averaged 22 signees the last 4 years. We averaged 21 signees the previous 4. No, we’re not leaving scholarships unused or giving more to walk-ons. And we most certainly lost transfers which is all “muh portal” is.
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Rival Killer [2851]
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110%er [3700]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 11:21 AM
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Well Clemson is going to have to pay up in order to compete. That’s just the landscape of college football right now. Personally, I think it should be a performance based contract. Like a small guaranteed amount, and big time bonuses if they deliver in gameplay.
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Orange Blooded [2288]
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It's remarkable y'all keep doubting Dabo
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Sep 22, 2024, 11:23 AM
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Dude has been doubted his entire life.
He's been doubted by every pundit in America and half of his "fan" base.
Even when he makes a mistake -- which he does -- he rights the ship (see Matt Luke).
So, be concerned, I guess. Pretty sure he isn't. I've watched him long enough to know that he has a backup to his backup to his backup plan.
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1st Rounder [678]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 11:38 AM
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We offer the incoming recruits NIL packages, and have for some time. The issue is if the coaches feel like getting into bidding wars for certain players. I feel that we should for 3 groups only, and that’s QB, OL, and DL and outside of that, lets the chips fall where they may. Will the coaches start to get into bidding wars for certain groups? Idk, but I would think it’s more likely than not after this year. I also think Dabo dips into the portal this offseason too, even if it’s just for depth at those areas.
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Legend [6951]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 11:40 AM
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We only have 12 seniors this year, so it was never going to be a large class anyways. I just hope we don’t have a huge exodus of players transfer out. We haven’t had it happen yet, fortunately.
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Scout Team [83]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
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Sep 22, 2024, 6:18 PM
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If dabo doesn’t change and start using the portal, we will not make it back to the elite level. It’s just that simple. Sure we can beat up on App st and Nancy st but you see what happened when we olayed Uga …their talent was much deeper and we got exposed in the 2nd half. That’s in dabo!!
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Game Changer [1611]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
Sep 22, 2024, 7:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Serious concerns about recruiting ] |
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12 loses from the 85 on scholarship. So the 13 replace that. Let's say 5 to 10 transfer out. So we need 20 to 25 to fill 85 and another 20 to hit the 105? So is there anyway Dabo signs 40 in a class that only has 13 as of today? Seems like a huge stretch???
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Game Day Hero [4455]
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We must know our numbers.
Sep 22, 2024, 7:19 PM
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Unless someone transfers out, we only have 11 scholarships available for 2025.
According to 24/7, we are currently 19th on overall score. However, if you look at the average score per player we are 7th.
Dabo does not over recruit.
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National Champion [7504]
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Its very concerning, bidding wars will hurt
Sep 22, 2024, 8:14 PM
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The truly elite players will go where the money is being paid.
Clemson will still get players, very good players, but depth will be hurt by new landscape.
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Commissioner [1222]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
Sep 23, 2024, 7:25 AM
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Don't have em...we have the greatest recruiting poster in all of college football...as we keep winning it grows...the camera sweeping our beautiful stadium saturday...a butt in evert seat...the band..no coaching the camera folks on where not to shoot! Been to other large schools...UT & A&M don't compare...more fans, larger venues...not CCC..recruit comes is got Clemson and rubbing the rock running down the hill, we won't get em all but keep winning and they keep coming...come to Clemson work hard Dabo will play you! NUFF SAID!
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Solid Orange [1326]
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
Sep 24, 2024, 4:48 PM
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The truth is that NIL as it is is not sustainable and this iis what we see with dropping recruit rankings. Eventually we'll see 8-10 schools that have sustainable cash and rank 1-10 every single year and the rest won't. It will lopside recruiting for everyone so badly that something will have to be done eventually to make recruiting a level playing field again.
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Paw Warrior [5040]
TigerPulse: 93%
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Re: Serious concerns about recruiting
Sep 24, 2024, 5:41 PM
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Great idea to get two defensive lineman out of portal that can play at least two years.
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Replies: 56
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