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CU Guru [1469]
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Mike Norvell
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Jan 25, 2024, 4:49 AM
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2023 ACC Coach of the Year Mike Norvell lead his FSU team to a 12-1 record and straight onto probation. It seems clear to me that recruiting and developing high school talent is not important to FSU. Rather, they are into the "one and done" crowd of mercenaries. I wonder: Will he lead them into another probation next year with his paid players?
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CU Medallion [52440]
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Re: Mike Norvell
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Jan 25, 2024, 6:46 AM
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Norvell can pay players but not the 350k he owes Clemson for travel expenses.
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All-In [44054]
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All-American [584]
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Re: He has 22 high school commits for 2024.
Jan 25, 2024, 8:10 AM
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They've also had 18 (11 of which are underclassman) transfer out, and brought 14 in. Complete overhauls of your roster are not blueprints for long term success, but are definite indicators of a potentially toxic culture. If you're in year 5, and still needing to rely on the transfer portal to the extent Norvell is, your development and evaluations are #### poor to say the least.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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EVERYBODY relies on the portal in some way shape or form....btw......
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Jan 25, 2024, 8:43 AM
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we've lost 33-40% of our HS recruits each of the last 5-6 years since the portal has become "a thing"
FSU's current recruiting class is right about where ours is, so if you think ours is a "good class" then there's is as well and on top of that they recruit the portal. Everyone bashed them last year for their portal efforts and they went undefeated in the regular season, so to think the portal is just poisoning all teams you'd be wrong.
Clemson would definitely benefit from strategically obtaining 4-5 playmakers from the portal each year.
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All-American [584]
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Re: EVERYBODY relies on the portal in some way shape or form....btw......
Jan 25, 2024, 8:52 AM
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Sure, we could benefit from 3-5 each year, but that is not what Norvell is doing at FSU. Norvell is having to bring in 14 transfers in one offseason, and that should raise eyeborws. While they did go undefeated last year, the culture was apparent with the opt outs of the bowl game. I'm not arguing that FSU's class isn't good, what I'm arguing is that their current model, is not sustainable and will catch up to them. I'd much rather model our roster management on UGA, and bringing in 3-5 players each year as you mentioned.
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All-In [44054]
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Our current model isnt sustainable either.
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Jan 25, 2024, 8:57 AM
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We can’t keep losing experienced depth each year and replacing it with high school players.
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CU Guru [1374]
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Re: Our current model isnt sustainable either.
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:21 AM
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We lost 3-4experienced players this year to the portal . FSU lost over half their roster
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All-In [32656]
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Don't let that get in the way of your narative though, joke keller***
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:41 AM
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All-In [44054]
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All-In [38124]
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Re: I'm not equating our two situations.
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Jan 25, 2024, 4:52 PM
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Because you're always trying to start an forum fight. I think you already know the answer to this.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Our current model isnt sustainable either.
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:33 AM
[ in reply to Our current model isnt sustainable either. ] |
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We can’t keep losing experienced depth each year and replacing it with high school players.
Yes we can!
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All-In [44054]
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Well sure, we can, but not if we want to be an elite program.***
Jan 25, 2024, 2:04 PM
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: Our current model isnt sustainable either.
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:46 AM
[ in reply to Our current model isnt sustainable either. ] |
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And how do you know this? The portal hasn’t been around long enough to draw such definitive conclusions. Clemson football has been to the top using this approach and there is no proven reason to believe it can’t be done again. Time will tell.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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the portal "opened" in the fall of 2018......
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:50 AM
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since the Portal & NIL has gained more steam nationwide we've taken a "step back" pretty much each year since. 2023 was our WORST record since 2010.
our talent level isn't what it used to be and teams we used to destroy have either beaten us and/or "close" to beaten us the last 3 years.
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Walk-On [142]
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Re: Our current model isnt sustainable either.
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Jan 25, 2024, 10:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: Our current model isnt sustainable either. ] |
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My concern is it's much easier for players to leave a program than it was in the past. Some players are going to be content in being a quality reserve and waiting their turn to start as a third or fourth year player, especially when they can go be a starter and be compensated as such at another program.
We all would like to think the players love the university and program as much as we do, but the reality is a lot of them are looking out for their best interest. And there's nothing wrong with that. Football is a tough sport and most players won't make a living playing the sport. They need to maximize their opportunities to play and be compensated.
The flip side of it is a lot of other programs will know a scholarship player can't really contribute on a team that has championship aspirations. So instead of just keeping them on the roster to play special teams and be a third-team player, they'll find them a landing spot at a school where they can actually add legitimate value. That gives that player an opportunity to play more somewhere else and frees up a scholarship to use on a transfer who can add immediate value.
I love that Dabo is loyal to his players, but not everybody is a hit. Some players don't pan out. If Dabo is unwilling to trim the fat in those instances and bring in players who can add value on the field, then this program will not have the depth of talent as the top programs in the country. Those programs absolutely cut bait when they determine a player isn't going to help on the field.
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All-In [44054]
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Exactly. Athletic scholarships are one year contracts.
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Jan 25, 2024, 2:13 PM
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As long as we fulfill the contract by offering our end of the deal, and we are being honest with our student-athletes, we don't owe them a guarantee of a four year scholarship.
They are free to leave after each season, and we are free to not renew their scholarship.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: Exactly. Athletic scholarships are one year contracts.
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Jan 25, 2024, 2:49 PM
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See this is where you don’t seem to understand Dabo’s idea of commitment. Have you ever heard him talk about how important it is for a player to graduate? Players don’t graduate in a year and when Dabo makes a scholarship commitment to a player, he is committed as long as that player is working towards graduation.
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All-In [44054]
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I do understand Dabos idea of commitment.
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Jan 25, 2024, 3:02 PM
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It’s admirable, but it’s outdated.
I would love for athletic scholarships to be four years, with penalties for either side for breaking it early (with the exception that graduation is a valid reason to break it).
Unfortunately, athletic scholarships are always for one year. Legally, either party can decide not to renew it. Since a player can decide not to renew it, why can’t we?
After all, they are getting a free education and all sorts of perks such as expert coaching, nutrition, training, etc., in exchange for being a productive student-athlete. Why should we continue to give them a scholarship if they don’t perform on the football field? We release players if they don’t maintain a certain academic performance, so why isn’t that also true for their football performance?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating for Dabo to ruthlessly pull scholarships. But if a player can leave if we aren’t meeting his needs, we should be free to go in a different direction if he isn’t meeting ours.
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CU Guru [1555]
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That's an ethical decision. One on which Dabo has made his position quite clear.
Jan 25, 2024, 3:37 PM
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I, personally, am in agreement with the way he views commitment and as long as the AD, board, and president also agree, no amount of hand wringing hoping he dumps poorer performing players so he can get transfer is going to matter.
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All-In [44054]
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Then lets stop the charade that we want to compete for national championships.***
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Jan 25, 2024, 4:00 PM
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All-TigerNet [10640]
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Re: Exactly. Athletic scholarships are one year contracts.
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Jan 25, 2024, 4:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Exactly. Athletic scholarships are one year contracts. ] |
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You're exactly right Rhett. I noticed that now JK seems to think integrity and commitment are "outdated". I just happen to think just the opposite.
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All-In [44054]
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This isn't complicated.
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Jan 25, 2024, 2:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Our current model isnt sustainable either. ] |
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Prior to the transfer portal changes in 2021 which allowed players to transfer without sitting out a year, we were an elite program. We were in the playoffs every year and won national championships.
Since those changes, and Dabo's insistence that we not use the transfer portal, we haven't sniffed the playoffs and have finished outside the top 10 three years in a row.
I don't know how much data you need, but unless you have a long list of excuses ready, this trend should be very concerning to you.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: This isn't complicated.
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Jan 25, 2024, 2:53 PM
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The trend is concerning to anyone who is a fan. Some of us just aren’t ready to say not using the portal is the only or even the biggest reason for these results. Your using convenient timing to support a conclusion that may or may not end up being correct but 3 years isn’t enough time to make a definitive conclusion.
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All-In [44054]
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I dont think Dabos lack of portal usage is THE reason for our decline.
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Jan 25, 2024, 3:07 PM
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But I definitely think it’s part of the problem.
One or two good wide receivers from the transfer portal could’ve helped us a lot last year. Ditto for a good offensive lineman.
I even think a good quarterback from the portal would have been nice. He would have pushed Cade and maybe even contended for a starting role.
If you take off your orange colored glasses, surely you can acknowledge that this might have resulted in one or two additional wins last year.
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Walk-On [104]
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Re: Our current model isnt sustainable either.
Jan 25, 2024, 2:13 PM
[ in reply to Our current model isnt sustainable either. ] |
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Take at the look at the production we lost to the portal, not much. and a lot transferred again. Keep getting good recruiting classes and maybe a few from the protal, when the need arises.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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opt outs happen everywhere in non-playoff bowls anyway, it didn't help......
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Jan 25, 2024, 8:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: EVERYBODY relies on the portal in some way shape or form....btw...... ] |
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that they were "left out" after going 13-0. BTW I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have been left out, but the reaction of almost any team would've been similar.
UGA can rely on 3-5 b/c they land #1/#2 recruiting classes every year also.
bottomline is our talent level is not what it used to be and the portal can be used to alleviate some of that problem, but it's not.
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All-In [44054]
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And it's pure idiocy that we aren't using the portal more.***
Jan 25, 2024, 2:14 PM
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: And it's pure idiocy that we aren't using the portal more.***
Jan 25, 2024, 2:56 PM
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But yet you say I’m wrong when I comment that you think you are smarter than Dabo. Is there any other conclusion one can draw when one person says what another person is doing is “pure idiocy”?
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All-In [44054]
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How do you propose he replace the 18 transfers out?
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Jan 25, 2024, 8:53 AM
[ in reply to Re: He has 22 high school commits for 2024. ] |
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It’s not realistic to sign 35-40 high school recruits in one offseason. That’s a sure recipe to always be a young team that is short on experience. That’s what we are always going to be facing at Clemson if Dabo continues shunning the transfer portal and insists on solely being a “developmental program.”
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All-American [563]
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Re: How do you propose he replace the 18 transfers out?
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:16 AM
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Yeah and if we keep Brownell as our basketball coach we will finish with a losing conference record and getting beat in the first round of the nit.
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Hall of Famer [24575]
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Shhhhh!!!! She doesn't like the facts!!!!***
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:22 AM
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CU Guru [1374]
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Re: How do you propose he replace the 18 transfers out?
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:23 AM
[ in reply to How do you propose he replace the 18 transfers out? ] |
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You can’t be that dumb. He had so many players transfer bc of his approach to the portal. No loyalty. No development. Just one and doners. If you think Clemson needs to do that you are a fool.
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All-In [44054]
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When did I say that we should just have one and doners?
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Jan 25, 2024, 2:21 PM
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Never.
I don't want to be a program that relies mostly on transfers, but I do want to be a program that uses the transfer portal to fill gaps and address needs.
We are going to lose players, either because they graduate, they go pro early, they have career-ending injuries, they decide to stop playing football, or because they want to transfer. The question is, how do we replace them?
While some of the guys we lose are freshmen who were buried on the depth chart and had no chance of playing, others provide valuable depth. Some are starters. Some are NFL talents. If we are always replacing them with high school players, that's a recipe for disaster because we will always be a young team that is short on experience.
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All-In [31315]
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: How do you propose he replace the 18 transfers out?
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:51 AM
[ in reply to How do you propose he replace the 18 transfers out? ] |
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“ It’s not realistic to sign 35-40 high school recruits in one offseason. That’s a sure recipe to always be a young team that is short on experience. That’s what we are always going to be facing at Clemson if Dabo continues shunning the transfer portal and insists on solely being a “developmental program.”
When did we have 18 transfers? This year we had 9 which is exactly half of what you say we will always be facing. But don’t let facts get in the way of your narrative.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: How do you propose he replace the 18 transfers out?
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:53 AM
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And 9 were not big time contributors, and I am actually good with Collin’s deciding to move on.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: How do you propose he replace the 18 transfers out?
Jan 25, 2024, 10:21 AM
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Agree on Collins. We had a group of WRs that just didn’t seem to be all in and I think it affected the whole room. Just seemed like Collins, Ngata, , Ajou and maybe a couple more never fully committed to working hard and fighting for catches. They certainly never reached the potential that they came in with. I like our young guys - AW, TB, and some of the redshirted guys along with Moore and Wesco make me hopeful that the WR group will be better soon.
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All-In [44054]
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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I already copied and pasted it once for you
Jan 25, 2024, 3:00 PM
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How do you propose he replace the 18 transfers out?
User Logo Judge Keller® posted 6 hours ago
All-In [41335 pts / 85%]
It’s not realistic to sign 35-40 high school recruits in one offseason. That’s a sure recipe to always be a young team that is short on experience. That’s what we are always going to be facing at Clemson if Dabo continues shunning the transfer portal and insists on solely being a “developmental program.”
How you going to spin your own words here?
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All-In [44054]
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I was referring to FSU needing to sign classes of 35-40
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Jan 25, 2024, 3:14 PM
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based on their current turnover.
We thankfully don’t have that much turnover, but the point applies to us as well: you can’t rely exclusively on high school recruits to make up for all of the losses.
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110%er [7998]
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Re: He has 22 high school commits for 2024.
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Jan 25, 2024, 8:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: He has 22 high school commits for 2024. ] |
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They've also had 18 (11 of which are underclassman) transfer out, and brought 14 in. Complete overhauls of your roster are not blueprints for long term success, but are definite indicators of a potentially toxic culture. If you're in year 5, and still needing to rely on the transfer portal to the extent Norvell is, your development and evaluations are #### poor to say the least.
I have little use for Norvell and doubt his long-term success but think your criticism in unfounded. The roster he inherited was trash. Much of the talent bolted as they do now when the change occurs. He had no choice but to use the portal as FSU was not willing to entertain a 10-year rebuilding project.
Should Dabo decide to hang up his whistle, Clemson could find itself in a similar situation.
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All-American [584]
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Re: He has 22 high school commits for 2024.
Jan 25, 2024, 2:36 PM
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I have no issues with Norvell using the portal initially. What I'm criticizing him on, is that he's now in year 5, when probably 90% of the roster are guys he handpicked, and he's still in a position where he's losing 18 guys to the portal and needing to bring in 14 guys from the portal. I would be just as critical of a coach that follows Dabo having to lean that heavily into the portal in his 5th year as well.
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CU Guru [1294]
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Re: He has 22 high school commits for 2024.
Jan 25, 2024, 8:52 AM
[ in reply to He has 22 high school commits for 2024. ] |
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FSU along with Scar are the type of schools that will see half their class transfer out within 2 years.
Don't let that get in the way of your narrative though.
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All-In [44054]
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Yes, they rely more on the transfer portal than we do.
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Jan 25, 2024, 8:55 AM
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But that’s not the same as what the OP was saying, which was that they don’t recruit and develop high school players.
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CU Guru [1294]
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Chris Low
Jan 25, 2024, 9:02 AM
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FSU just started going knee deep into the portal, so it's way too early to see how this works out long term for them. They will have a tremendous amount of player turnover.
I'd suggest taking a listen to this podcast between Chris Low and Larry Williams. I agree 100% that there's still too small of a sample size to make a final conclusion.
https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-9rkjg-1555a66
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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close to half our our classes transfer out as well.
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: He has 22 high school commits for 2024. ] |
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and are replaced by FRESHMAN.........hence the "we're just young" excuse the last 3-4 years
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CU Guru [1294]
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Re: close to half our our classes transfer out as well.
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:11 AM
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Out of the players we've had transfer out, how many went on to make an impact somewhere else? Like I said this whole portal thing is still in it's infancy and the long term results have yet to be determined.
As for you the next time you make a positive post will be your first.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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LOL says the newbie......you've completely missed the point........
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:22 AM
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the POINT and PART of the reason we've essentially fallen out of the "elite" tree the last 3-4 years is because we've LOST 33-40% of our HS recruiting classes to the portal and have replaced them w/ HS recruiting classes, which are freshmen. Regardless of productivity or what they've done elsewhere you LOSE what we've "prided ourselves on" (developmental program) and we replace w/ freshman again where 33-40% will eventually transfer out.......it's a vicious cycle and we're not helping our cause.
it's not a coincidence that we've lost to teams like Pitt, NC state, miami, Tennessee along with struggling with the likes of Wake, Kentucky, South Carolina the last 3-4 years.
Portal/NIL become a thing...........we fall from "elite", our model is not sustainable as long as CFB continues along this path.
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CU Guru [1294]
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LOL says the downer
Jan 25, 2024, 9:35 AM
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IMO, what you've seen the last few years were players being misevaluated. I think there's a lot of truth to the coaches not being able to do in person evaluations for almost 2 years. This past freshmen class that took the field for us is what we're used to. This current class that just signed will be even better imo. Don't look now but the 2025 class already stands a #### good chance of being one of Coach Swinney's top 3 classes. I do think we should target between 1 to 4 portal players a year depending on needs.
As I've said I think the sample size is still too small. Do yourself a favor and listen to the podcast.
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Walk-On [142]
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Re: LOL says the downer
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Jan 25, 2024, 10:55 AM
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UGA is currently the best program in college football. They added 6 pre-spring transfers. It's likely they'll lose some more guys after spring practice and add a couple more transfers. The goal is to maximize your talent across your 85 scholarships year-to-year, however that looks.
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All-TigerNet [10640]
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Re: LOL says the downer
Jan 25, 2024, 4:18 PM
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"however that looks" ............ and graduate 44% of them!
NO THANKS!
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All-In [31315]
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Re: LOL says the newbie......you've completely missed the point........
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:42 AM
[ in reply to LOL says the newbie......you've completely missed the point........ ] |
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Man you really need to set up a meet with Dabo and see about getting into the “How Dabo Should be Building His Team” group that meets on Wednesday’s and voice your concerns.
No hater but what’s happening at FSU is never happening while Dabo is here. When or if it’s needed I feel sure he will use it.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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And nobody's advocating the "FSU model" either.....
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:44 AM
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that's what y'all are NOT comprehending.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: And nobody's advocating the "FSU model" either.....
Jan 25, 2024, 9:52 AM
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It seems that FSU and Ga gets most of the pub on this board for their team building skills. I get and understand your plug and play philosophy and it sounds simple but I’m thinking there is a little more to it than what we know. Loyalty, money? I have no idea but I’m fairly certain it’s not because Dabo has decided he no longer wants to win.
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All-In [44054]
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Oh, I am confident Dabo wants to win.
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Jan 25, 2024, 4:09 PM
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He just insists on doing it his way, even if it means ignoring signs all around him that his way isn’t working.
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All-In [44054]
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It doesnt have to be either extreme.
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Jan 25, 2024, 3:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: LOL says the newbie......you've completely missed the point........ ] |
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There is significant space between not using the portal and taking 20 transfers every year.
This is what bothers me about some of you. Anytime someone suggests using the portal, the knee jerk reaction is to say “We don’t want to be like Colorado or FSU!”
Well, no one here has suggested that. We just don’t want to shun the portal completely and continue missing out on talented, experienced players who can help us win more.
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CU Guru [1374]
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Re: close to half our our classes transfer out as well.
Jan 25, 2024, 9:31 AM
[ in reply to close to half our our classes transfer out as well. ] |
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That’s just silly. 247 sports is showing we had 6 players transfer out. Mukuba, Pride, and Ennis were the only regular contributors that left.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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you don't comprehend much do you?
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:38 AM
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#1. I said said we're losing 33-40% of a class EACH YEAR for the last 5-6 years (that's 8-10 players w/ an avg 24 player recruiting class.
#2. We've lost just this year: spector, zanders, ojebie, makuba, thomas, pride, collins, ennis, mayes, Helms.............that's 10 which is 41.6% of a 24 player (on avg) recruiting class.
it's a numbers game and you don't understand it.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: close to half our our classes transfer out as well.
Jan 25, 2024, 9:47 AM
[ in reply to close to half our our classes transfer out as well. ] |
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Do we have 1/2 of our class, actual contributors, transferring out?
Man not seeing it. Ga, FSU is currently a revolving door with entries and exits. Not the case at Clemson.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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they also use the portal to replenish
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:53 AM
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both UGA and FSU lost a game each this past season
we lost 4 yet we're "elite"?
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All-In [31315]
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Re: they also use the portal to replenish
Jan 25, 2024, 9:59 AM
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Guess we will see how it works out in 5-10 years. I for one like that a majority of our players want to stay instead of seeking other opportunities for a bigger payday. When that starts happening then I would see no choice but to be more active in the portal. Right now recruiting high school is keeping the numbers at 85 or even a little higher.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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well, this is year 6 and it's not trending well in any aspect
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Jan 25, 2024, 10:05 AM
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for Clemson or CFB in general.
I personally hate it, but I also want to see Clemson get to ELITE again
the toothpaste is not going back into the tube so we need to adapt or settle for less than what we want.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: well, this is year 6 and it's not trending well in any aspect
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Jan 25, 2024, 10:18 AM
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Yea hoping for some type of rules and regulations to be implemented here in the near future. Not sure what we currently have is what was intended initially. Now they will be reactive to fix a broken system instead of thinking this deal through on the front end.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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agree***
Jan 25, 2024, 10:22 AM
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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CU Guru [1374]
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Orange Blooded [2306]
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Legend [17781]
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Mike Norvell has a very good HS class
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:19 AM
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I think last year is going to be looked at as an anomaly for their program
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All-In [26022]
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Re: Mike Norvell has a very good HS class
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Jan 25, 2024, 9:44 AM
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Duke has been using the one and done players in basketball for years. It worked for them.
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110%er [6895]
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Something about that guy just gives me the creeps.***
Jan 25, 2024, 9:49 AM
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All-In [38428]
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Re: Mike Norvell
Jan 25, 2024, 5:09 PM
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I wonder how bad we'll beat them in Tallahassee this fall ?
I think another blowout is in order.
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