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All-TigerNet [13579]
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You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right?
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Feb 26, 2023, 3:53 PM
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As I continue to read all of the basketball threads it dawned on me that people are acting like we need to get back to our glory days in basketball as if we ever had glory days to begin with. What we've had are snippets in time where we had some talent and some decent results but nothing consistent in the post-season to speak of and only advanced once in our history to a regional final.
My question is if success is guaranteed simply by changing out a coach then why is it that throughout our entire history, we have never had any real, repeatable success? Barnes got us to the Big Dance but he didn't stick around long enough for us to know if that was a trend or an anomaly.
If we have proven time and again that changing out the coach has never delivered the desired result we all want then what is it really going to take to get us where we want to be? It certainly has to be doing more than just changing coaches based on past history and results.
Message was edited by: slwcu79®
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All-TigerNet [14088]
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that's why it's important to keep CBB
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Feb 26, 2023, 3:54 PM
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He has us trending upward.
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CU Medallion [57475]
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Re: that's why it's important to keep CBB
Feb 26, 2023, 3:57 PM
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I don’t know about upward but I’d say he’s definitely consistent. You pretty much know what you’re going to get with hm. Fanbois may hate those that reference 13 years of actual results, but it is what it is.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right?
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Feb 26, 2023, 3:58 PM
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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There are better days, why give someone $mils, the most support...
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Feb 26, 2023, 3:59 PM
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and by far the best Clemson, Clemson University has ever been, to return 3 NC2As in 12+ years? That's patently stupid.
It's been better and should be. Clemson doesn't have to spend another $ outside of distancing obsolescence, better coaches are available, and have been here. Why continue to saddle this program, a money maker, with a donkey?
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: There are better days, why give someone $mils, the most support...
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:10 PM
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Barnes, Purnell, Ellis, and Foster were good coaches but none built a powerhouse at Clemson. Decent results over a few years but very little post-season success. My point is that if we are serious about building a special basketball program, it will take more than a coach to get it done. The administration is going to have to step up in a number of ways, much like they did in football after Dabo showed us the way. Dabo by himself would not have been able to accomplish what he accomplished without the financial support to help him build a top program that upgraded facilities, athletic academic support, funding the best assistant coaches, etc., all of which allowed us to upgrade our recruiting efforts and attract the top talent we needed.
It kind of feels like we are waiting for the basketball results before we decide to invest and I just don't know if we can attract the kind of coach who will come to Clemson to prove himself without having what he thinks he needs to be successful here. Maybe we are getting closer to doing it but I still have not heard an articulate vision from the administration that lays out HOW we are going to do it and HOW MUCH we are willing to invest to get there.
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Legend [16944]
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Re: There are better days, why give someone $mils, the most support...
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:12 PM
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And no matter what we do, Brownell should be at the helm forever. Hopefully, by the time he is ready to retire in another 30 years, AI and robotics will have come far enough that cyborg Brownell can coach us in perpetuity. Amen.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: There are better days, why give someone $mils, the most support...
Feb 26, 2023, 4:15 PM
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The point is if we change the coach and do very little else to support the program, our history says we may find some incremental success but miss out on the bigger goals most of us would like to see.
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Legend [16944]
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Re: There are better days, why give someone $mils, the most support...
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:57 PM
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It’s a new day financially at Clemson. The status of the University is greatly elevated from when Brownell was hired. Both academically and athletically. Investments in the surrounding community have undergone staggering growth. The board and AD are significantly changed from when Brownell was hired. Why not see if we can attract a coach with a vision for for the program that elevates our program
rather than tediously sweating out possibly making the tourney every year. I don’t disagree with you but the line of thinking is employed as fait accompli argument for sticking with Brownell. He’s had his chance and part of that chance was persuading the AD to make necessary investments and changes. Unfortunately it isn’t just a matter of giving him “one more year”. He has a contract that has to be dealt with under the current dynamics of college basketball. It’s a fish or cut bait season. And I simply can’t imagine, regardless how this season ends, in thinking he deserves to be bumped back up to 5-7 years on his contract.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: There are better days, why give someone $mils, the most support...
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Feb 26, 2023, 5:02 PM
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I agree with your thinking and elevating the goal to be more strategic and less tactical around making the NCAAT and I am definitely not advocating for keeping BB but more so believing that there is a multi-point approach that probably needs to be created to address our desire for success in a much more holistic manner. Thank you for your thoughts!
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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This is not the Clemson of Barnes, Ellis, Foster or even OP.
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: There are better days, why give someone $mils, the most support... ] |
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Clemson is not Podunk U any longer, nor is it the academic shithole it was when Forbes had it ~500 in 2007-08?
It's almost unbearable when "Clemson" fans mock Louisville or West Virginia as not being a good fit academically, because Clemson anchored the basement in the ACC for most of its time here.
The endowment was ~250mil during OP and reached $1bil recently. 2010 saw Barker put into play the $600mil drive of excellence. The Clemson of OP doesn't exist today.
Clemson pays Dabo Swinney ~$10mil/ because it was the tsunami he created that makes a coming Veterinarian School possible. It's that wave that has allowed Clemson to become the University it is today. That wave garnered attention & dollars, research and donations.
Thank Brad for his time, he's in no way been able to leverage the Clemson brand. He took over a program that went to 6 straight post seasons, 3 NC2As and was gifted a tournament team then drove it into the ground.
Anything he's accomplished is because Clemson has thrown money at the problem and the problem is Brad.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: This is not the Clemson of Barnes, Ellis, Foster or even OP.
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:30 PM
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So, is changing the coach the only thing we need to do to bring us Dabo-like success?
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Are you alone in this thread saying "Dabo-like" success?***
Feb 26, 2023, 4:31 PM
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: Are you alone in this thread saying "Dabo-like" success?***
Feb 26, 2023, 4:33 PM
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Is that all you got?
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Yes, would have been a perfectly good answer.***
Feb 26, 2023, 4:35 PM
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: Yes, would have been a perfectly good answer.***
Feb 26, 2023, 4:37 PM
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I wasn't looking for validation. I was hoping for some reasoning on what you think it takes besides changing the coach to get us where we want to be.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: Yes, would have been a perfectly good answer.***
Feb 26, 2023, 4:39 PM
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Or put another way, in addition to changing the coach, do you think we need to do anything else to compete for the NCAAT on a regular basis?
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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No. Clemson has done more with far less in the past.
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:52 PM
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This is not Clemson of old, not remotely and trying to hamstring today's bright horizons with yester's thinking is atrocious.
It no longer exists.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: No. Clemson has done more with far less in the past.
Feb 26, 2023, 4:55 PM
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Cool, I appreciate you answering the question.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Validation? I wasn't offering any, only an end when one...
Feb 26, 2023, 4:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yes, would have been a perfectly good answer.*** ] |
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participant begins making things up, bandying about ridiculous expectations that no one shares and then, when tasked about it, curls up in a corner.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: Validation? I wasn't offering any, only an end when one...
Feb 26, 2023, 4:47 PM
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It's kind of a shame all you have is one-liners but nothing to offer in terms of actually answering the question. But we're kind of used to that from you...
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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And you are still the only one saying "Dabo-like" success.
Feb 26, 2023, 4:54 PM
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You have zero integrity. None.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: And you are still the only one saying "Dabo-like" success.
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:56 PM
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If by integrity you mean having to agree with everything you say then you are probably right.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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No, the question you kept posing had been answered...
Feb 26, 2023, 5:02 PM
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by my original response.
You and you alone made up an expectation, an absurd one at that, and then when asked about it, refused to own up to it. You fled and curled up in a corner.
That, is a lack of integrity, but boy did you own it.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: No, the question you kept posing had been answered...
Feb 26, 2023, 5:03 PM
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I'm still here, haven't fled anywhere. But you do you...
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Fled & still fleeing, the conversation & your fabrication...
Feb 26, 2023, 5:08 PM
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: Fled & still fleeing, the conversation & your fabrication...
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Feb 26, 2023, 5:09 PM
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LOL, glad you finally found your voice and some real passion...
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Maybe you can find some integrity, you've got time.***
Feb 26, 2023, 5:11 PM
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Again, you're the only one saying as much. It's a habit?***
Feb 26, 2023, 5:16 PM
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.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: Again, you're the only one saying as much. It's a habit?***
Feb 26, 2023, 5:19 PM
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As much as I'd love to banter back and forth with you, my bride is insisting I come to dinner. Since you appear to be a last-word kind of guy I will let you have it and flee away as you previously accused me. Enjoy the rest of your evening!
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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I have no doubt she wears the pants in the family. Maybe...
Feb 26, 2023, 5:24 PM
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she could let you borrow those and some integrity?
I understand people say stupid things, then run from them as you did.
I did not make you look stupid, you made you look stupid; I simply pointed it out.
And yet, after it was pointed out, you can not and/or will not own up to it.
That's telling.
Enjoy your dinner.
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CU Medallion [57475]
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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It's a great addition and makes sense. It's amazing how...
Feb 26, 2023, 4:40 PM
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much Clemson University and the surrounding area has grown. Not just in AD facilities, but Academia & Administrative as well. Research millions with ICAR grant and on and on and on...
I know some are uneasy with the incline rate of the growth, hopefully planning keeps things manageable for all those involved.
Who knows, Law School & Med School could one day follow.
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Heisman Winner [136438]
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You make a great argument for
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:09 PM
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Replacing CBB with a youngster who is happy with $375,000 a year and put the rest of the money into field hockey or synchronized swimming
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: You make a great argument for
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:13 PM
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From a priority perspective, that pretty much feels like where we are.
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All-TigerNet [14088]
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Nooooo, if we lose CBB
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:19 PM
[ in reply to You make a great argument for ] |
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then we make an Ice Hockey rink in LJ. That way we can compete with BC and other northeastern schools in hockey. That'd be so cool.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: Nooooo, if we lose CBB
Feb 26, 2023, 4:27 PM
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I know your response is a bit tongue in cheek but our daughter went to Penn State and we used to live in WI and go to hockey games. Those games are completely sold out. Our daughter had to go into the lottery at Penn State to even try to get tickets and those schools make a ton of money on those programs.
Unfortunately, that is the way administrations are thinking these days which is why I really wonder where our admin sits on the future of our basketball program and how much support they want to give it.
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All-In [31394]
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Re: You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right?
Feb 26, 2023, 4:15 PM
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No glory years but we definitely had better teams against a much better ACC. No telling what Ellis and Barnes would have done in this current water downed version of the ACC.
Keeping what we have is a sure fire way to maintain the status quo. That has been proven.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right?
Feb 26, 2023, 4:17 PM
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And doing nothing more than changing out the coach has not historically made a meaningful impact on our results.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right?
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Feb 26, 2023, 4:19 PM
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To be clear, my post is not a statement of support to keep Brad. It is questioning our commitment to the program and how much further we are willing to go to make it a consistent participant in the NCAAT. It is fine for Neff to say that is the goal; I'd like to see and hear his plan for how he intends to make that a reality.
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All-In [31394]
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Re: You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right?
Feb 15, 2018, 5:14 PM
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Well I’m not real sure how much this programs lack monetarily as we seem to get that information from JK and we know that he often skews numbers to favor his argument.
It all starts with the head guy. He has to be the one pushing the admin for needed changes and he also has to recruit good players. Also some would argue at times for better game management. Again this is a culmination of a career and not one particular season. The question is has Brownell done as good as he possibly could barring the inequities compared to other schools in our conference. If he has then we need to keep him.
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Walk-On [102]
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Re: You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right?
Feb 26, 2023, 4:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right? ] |
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Duke wasn't a blueblood or anything special in basketball before they hired Coach K. Duke didn't spend some large sum to get him nor did they suddenly spend large amounts on facilities, etc. The spending came after their success and not prior to it. As has been seen in numerous places, and studies have shown, money spent does not equate to more wins.
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right?
Feb 26, 2023, 4:49 PM
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If we can bring in a Coach K and turn it around without doing anything else, that would be wonderful. What are the odds?
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All-In [31394]
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All-TigerNet [13579]
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Re: You do realize there are no glory days to go back to, right?
Feb 26, 2023, 5:11 PM
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No easy answers for sure which has kind of been my point. If it is as simple as changing out the coach and doing nothing else then the results should show it. Maybe we'll finally get it right on the next hire.
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Team Captain [497]
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Legend [16264]
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I see this as rear view mentality versus windshield.
Feb 27, 2023, 10:35 AM
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Success is never guaranteed by simply swapping out a coach, just as failure is never guaranteed for what's ahead based on past results. Expectations may be established that way, but not the end product.
Folks have pointed out here and before that today's Clemson University is on a whole different level athletically, academically, and financially than at any point in its history. I don't see how that can be debated really, either. A lot of that growth has also happened over just the past decade plus, and we continue on an upward trajectory, with a remarkable foundation in place to sustain.
In 2010, we were pretty much forced to make a coaching hire, and our resources, status, and facilities were far more limited then than today. TDP opted for more of a shepherd approach for this role over the lion mentality that Barnes and OP embodied. The results have been inferior, though marginally, in the grand scheme of things. The worst part is the apathy that style and approach has delivered on the fan side. Ideally, with a head coach, you get a great mix of both. We just don't have that in basketball.
Rick Barnes offered us all a glimmer of what our basketball program is capable of. He came in and challenged the status quo immediately, didn't take nothing from nobody, and went out and attacked - rear view mirror be ######. Facilities and finances were nowhere near where the program is today, and fans were turning out for our physical, winning, and challenging style of play, and wanting more of it.
Changing out a coach for the sake of change is not the answer. Bringing in a leader with vision, chops, and an eye on the future and not the past, is not change for change's sake - it's believing we can accomplish more, which we can, and having the guts to go for it. Nobody needs to blow the bank in the process setting out on a new course. We are at an excellent starting point financially right where we are today with what we have. If a coach is delivering and the program is excelling, that alone will generate more resources.
For now, we have a very good season underway with an opportunity to make it excellent. Like most, I'm enjoying every moment of the successes, and am eager for more before it's all said and done. If we can finish out this promising season with some glory, even a taste - awesome! Let's do it again. If this remains just a very good season after all, then let's take a shot at something better while our iron is red hot.
Go Tigers!
Message was edited by: wildblulou®
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