Re: We probably will be, our kids are a different story

Tiger Titan [46471]

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Economic rules don't change over the decades

Sep 25, 2024, 3:05 PM

We're looking at simple macro economics here. An excerpt from the link I gave you:

This is not, however, the end of the story. Consumers and other businesses forced to pay tariffs or buy higher-priced domestic goods suffer from lower incomes and profits than they would have without the tariffs. This, in turn, means reduced consumer spending on other goods and services or, for companies, on worker salaries or investments. Tariffs can also lead to increased currency values, placing exporters at a disadvantage in foreign markets and thus reducing their sales and profits. Like any tax, a tariff generally leads to deadweight loss (an excess loss or burden above the amount actually paid in tax) because it decreases aggregate economic activity and incomes.

Finally, tariffs’ protectionist objectives and revenue objectives are often in tension because tariffs are only paid (and thus collected) on imports that enter the country. Raise tariffs high enough to reduce or eliminate imports (and thus benefit higher-priced domestic producers), and tariff revenue also is reduced or eliminated. Keeping tariffs low can maintain import levels and thus generate revenue but result in little protection for domestic firms. In fact, revenue considerations once limited the scope and magnitude of US tariffs (and thus of US protectionism).

And if you decrease supply while the demand remains the same, prices will skyrocket. Salaries aren't keeping up with costs already. It will be economic disaster.

The steel and aluminum tariffs of 2018 are just a microcosm of how they don't work.

We are a top exporter of automotive cars and components, with aerospace and white goods coming in 2nd and 3rd. Many of those products are produced in South Carolina, generating both jobs and revenue for our local economies. That is much more meaningful than jobs to handle imports.

You aren't getting this. This won't increase on our end and may decrease as well since the foreign companies are shipping parts in here to make cars (like BMW and Volvo) that will be subjected to tariffs. On the export end, volume will decrease. This will lead to layoffs at the ports. Period.

From Cato:

Empirical research from David Furceri and others examined 151 countries from 1963 through 2014 and found that tariff increases lead to economically and statistically significant declines in domestic output and productivity, as well as increases in unemployment and inequality.

You said, "We need a robust economy that produces things and people who know how to produce things."

I'm throwing all this evidence at you--evidence that economists across the globe will support--that shows you your end game won't happen. You haven't been able to cite any statistics that support what you want, and when I show you the evidence, you're ignoring it and just going with, "well, I'm just gonna stick to anecdotal evidence."

Finally, one last thing Cato notes:

Tariffs also beget retaliatory actions from foreign countries, creating the potential for offsetting government aid. And it all creates an environment ripe for corruption and geopolitical tension.

The 2018–2019 tariffs are again instructive here. First, there was the inevitable retaliation. Governments of China, the European Union, Canada, and Mexico, as well as nations with smaller levels of trade with the United States, quickly responded with tariffs on American products. Research shows, moreover, that the retaliatory tariffs were politically motivated, targeting products that would disproportionately impact counties that supported Donald Trump in the 2016 election.

Read that last line again. That's talking about places like South Carolina.

Tariffs are bad. Period. There is no other counter argument. Not one person here has been able to cite data that supports the use of tariffs, both long term and short term.

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I've given you a sound counter argument--not out of my mouth, but out of an expert's--on this and you're refusing to read it AND you're misinterpreting the quotes.

I don't care about layoffs at the Ports, as we've seen in the past, tariffs do alter businesses behavior. Volvo, BMW, and a lot of those manufacturers have increased their reliance on more local part suppliers over the past decade. Spartanburg, in particular, has benefitted from this hugely. I don't care what your CATO institute study says, I've worked in the industry for 15 years.

You should care. Again, they're the state's largest employer. If you can't see how that's an issue, I don't know how to help you here.

EDIT: Another reason you should care about what happens at the Ports. If you enjoy much of the lifestyle and benefits of where you live, you should thank the Ports, because I promise they're funding a lot of it.

It's a FACT that BMW ships parts in from overseas, and those parts would be subject to tariffs. Great. You work in whatever industry; I won't lecture you on that (as you've somehow tried to do with journalism and me in the past when you have no experience there). While that may make them turn to more local parts, that is still going to raise prices and still going to hinder production. What I'm presenting to you, through the arguments of experts, is that tariffs are bad on a simple macro economic level, yet you're refusing to even entertain reading it. That makes you look very foolish here.

It's simple: Lower supply, demand doesn't change, costs go up for the consumer. That's what happens with tariffs.

Show me ONE, just ONE expert study that counters what I gave you and says these tariffs are a good idea.

A study from 151 countries does not prove my end game won't happen, because when you're the big d!ck things work a little different when you make moves. Companies are not going to respond to US tariffs the same as they would for a country like Czech Republic, for instance.

The studies of 151 countries and the study of economic history in the past and real historical examples doesn't prove that the great Lakebum has somehow figured it all out! Good Christ, man.

This is also hilarious, considering the huge increase in manufacturing we've seen coming to the state the past 8 years. If they were talking about places like South Carolina, they must of missed the memo or something.

Please re-read the excerpt again. It says that retaliatory tariffs (and they'll happen) will target counties that were pro-Trump in the election. They proved that those nations targeted them. That's SC, bruh. That's Spartanburg.

Again, as I have repeatedly said, I don't think tariffs are the be all end all solution...but they can absolutely be used to level the playing field for US manufacturers.

No, they cannot, and I have given you hard factual evidence otherwise. You've failed to do the same with a counterpoint. It's all anecdotal, and not even applicable at that.

Message was edited by: Catahoula®

Big Dummy Trump says he'll impose a 200% tariff on John Deere for moving some

Limited government, free market master.***

Re: Big Dummy Trump says he'll impose a 200% tariff on John Deere for moving some

They wont be able to raise the prices that much, so theyll have to eat the

Those tariffs will 100% be paid for by JD consumers. Who in the actual F

I like angry Tom.***

Prices are always paid by the consumer. JD has competition these days

or d) not vote for dickheadtrump.

yes vote to kill the American people with the steady creep of globalist policies

yes vote to kill the American people with the steady creep of nationalist

You guys must have loved NAFTA***

So you support federal involvement in the markets and to....

Tom: "You can't trust the evil federal government!"

Tom...you love big federal gov, right??***

Re: They wont be able to raise the prices that much, so theyll have to eat the

So much hatred and ignorance.

I don't think you understand how any of this, or economics, works.***

OK, explain how the company will keep their price the same after a tariff.

Just one? LOL

That doesn't prove that they didn't lower their price.

I already did with that link, which you are avoiding reading

America first***

Lib***

Re: America first***

^^^ Which universe did this one float in from...? ^^^***

But is Trump as big a dummy as George Bush and Bill Clinton??

Do you like free markets or the heavy hand of government intervention to do

I know people like to use NAFTA and GATT as giant

That little thing called the "Internet" had more to do with the 90's boom than

But I still think free trade helped more communities

It's weird arguing for free trade against ostensive conservatives.***

We need fair trade, not free trade. We cannot complete with slave labor.***

Why would we need to compete with it?***

Well our economy doesn't run on magic, we have to have jobs stateside unless

*Looks around at everything post-NAFTA*

Well govt. is the #1 employer in the country and half of the population is

I'm sure horse cart makers were once terrified.

I'm sure we can all be baristas and come out OK.***

We'll be fine, LB.***

We probably will be, our kids are a different story

What's the takeaway supposed to be here?

The takeaway is that economies evolve.

No they weren't the towns largely died

On government employment, that's not really unusual

What we need to do is spread large concentrations in D.C. to other states.

Yet tariffs are not the answer

Stimulating the economy isn't the be all end all, we need a robust economy

Did you read the link?

I haven't read the CATO link, no. I'm going off of what I see in industry in

Economic rules don't change over the decades

I honestly don't think you even understand my concerns, you're

For the love of sweet baby Jesus, read the ####### report

READ the UNI-PARTY memorandum!!! ... CATO ... What a sold-out joke.***

Good morning. You are probably aware that the concept of

There are probably at least 600 more people who support that plant

Re: Big Dummy Trump says he'll impose a 200% tariff on John Deere for moving some

Re: Big Dummy Trump says he'll impose a 200% tariff on John Deere for moving some

So you like inflation, huh?***

Re: So you like inflation, huh?***

Yeah, I don't like it either...

Wow. A little self-conscious now that we've raised the shades on what makes

Re: Wow. A little self-conscious now that we've raised the shades on what makes

I don't have the personality you crave, but thank you.***

Youre welcome******

Did you ever take my advice about the brand and the chair?

Now this guy's got it... HEYHEY's bonin' up hard.***

Imposing tariffs on JD like this violates the USMCA deal that Trump himself

If he told them that repeatedly smacking themselves in the nuts...

Re: If he told them that repeatedly smacking themselves in the nuts...

And then recommend an ENT for your "self-induced" throat condition...***

By the way, do you realize that socialist Europe already has tariffs on US goods***

Re: By the way, do you realize that socialist Europe already has tariffs on US goods***

Rather than a stick, why not use a carrot?

Mainly because it won't resonate with MAGA cancel culture.***

Many states have that...Georgia certainly does...

I did a very quick google

Re: Rather than a stick, why not use a carrot?

How is that?

TigerBoard POTD

Looks around at everything post-NAFTA