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TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 2:47 PM
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Rival Killer [2701]
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Hope this doesn't hurt recruiting for those dual sport
Nov 5, 2020, 2:48 PM
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athletes. I know we've had a few come because they could do both... such as Jacoby Ford
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Freshman [-94]
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Title IX has been a cancer on society ........
Nov 5, 2020, 5:19 PM
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YES. It had great intentions and did in fact prime an explosion of girls in athletics, which has so many positives for girls and women, but Title IX is also a perfect example of big government overreach and activist courts.
Title IX was a typical piece of limited restrictive legislation written for a very specific purpose. In this case to seed and germinate opportunities for girls in athletics. Truly a noble cause.
But in predictable fashion the far left, the woke crowd, the activists and femi-nazis got their rabid cancerous claws into Title IX from the start by forcing football to be included in the compliance numbers, which had immediate predictable and negative consequences for boys, men, and colleges, and by extension, society.
Pretty much every sport has a male & female version. Football as we know does not, but football is not a male restrictive sport. It is in fact coed, which is why there have been a few female kickers.
We also know that football is the goose that lays the golden egg and pays for everything else. Mens' basketball generates considerable revenue, but that is a fraction of what football provides. By requiring the 85 football scholarships at the FCS level it created chaos and gross inequities that are undeniable, well known, and predictable. But the femi-nazis refused to see logic & reason (imagine that) and emboldened by big government, the biased manipulative lying media, and with explicit cooperation of activist judges.
Title IX has also, due to the far left and activist judges, morphed into this goliath of insane and punitive legislation that has absolutely nothing to do with girls and sports, and is now being used by the extreme left to persecute & harm boys and men in academia and the larger workforce and by extension society. Again, all of which was perfectly predictable to anyone with the slightest understanding of how progressives work and think and how they get away with it because the media is not only corrupt, but complicit, and thanks to activist judges.
And it leads to obvious questions, as do most cases of action by big government, the far left, and feminism, why does the left hate poor people so much and why are they so racist and why do they especially hate poor blacks, primarily poor black boys. Because their policies always have dire predictable unintended consequences that disproportionately harm minorities and especially black boys.
How many black men have a degree from Clemson and were able to bring their family out of poverty thanks to a wrestling or track scholarship? How many more will now lose those opportunities? How many boys of all colors have been harmed by Title IX in America because of the corruption of progressivism, and their partners in the media and judiciary?
I personally know dozens of black men, proud Clemson alumni, thanks to a track or wrestling scholarship pre-Title IX that would not have that opportunity today. Dairen Rencher would not even exist or be at Clemson today had Title IX existed back then. There will be no more DR's nor the many others like him, such as my Clemson roommates' son going to Clemson next year to study engineering thanks to a black kid from Alabama getting a wrestling scholarship to Clemson.
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Athletic Dir [1104]
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bing bing bing! we haaaave a winner!***
Nov 5, 2020, 5:40 PM
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Tiger Spirit [9491]
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Re: Title IX has been a cancer on society ........
Nov 5, 2020, 6:01 PM
[ in reply to Title IX has been a cancer on society ........ ] |
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If not for title IX, women wouldn't have the same opportunities as men to compete in sports. My daughter, because she is a good athlete, has had most of her school paid for because of track and field and she shouldn't be denied those opportunities just because she is a girl.
Obviously, I totally disagree with your conclusions. That said, I can't dispute the facts that most sports, mens and women's do not generate enough revenue to support themselves. But, please dispense with all the name calling and labeling. You can make your case without it.
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110%er [3827]
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What a load of crap. Come on, we're better than that. Really?***
Nov 5, 2020, 2:49 PM
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Tiger Titan [46593]
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Why is it a load of crap?
Nov 5, 2020, 2:52 PM
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Obviously we would rather not cut any sports, but what are we supposed to do if the athletic department funds aren't there to support all teams?
Football and men's basketball can only do so much to support all of the other sports. It's not an unending supply of money.
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Orange Phenom [14539]
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Equitable cuts across all sports
Nov 5, 2020, 3:47 PM
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and asking for donations. There are alumni that would have made donations to IPTAY to help build the endowment for sports programs.
This was, like many schools before them, a lazy approach: Find one sport, & cut it.
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Orange Elite [5125]
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Re: Equitable cuts across all sports
Nov 5, 2020, 3:59 PM
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All of the AD budget has to go to building putt-putt courses for football players, doncha know.
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Freshman [-94]
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Fail. Private money built the football facility.***
Nov 5, 2020, 5:32 PM
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Campus Hero [13855]
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It's happening everywhere
Nov 5, 2020, 2:55 PM
[ in reply to What a load of crap. Come on, we're better than that. Really?*** ] |
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The loss of revenue is putting a major financial crunch on athletic departments all across the country. Many of these ADs have 10s of millions of dollars of outstanding debt from financing new athletic buildings, renovations, etc, and they were not prepared for a sudden and massive revenue hit.
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Scout Team [151]
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Re: It's happening everywhere
Nov 5, 2020, 11:12 PM
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You are so right.
I’m not going to begin to touch the politics or related issues on this matter. All I can say is that it is so sad for these kids to have this rug pulled out from under their feet. I’m glad to see that any of them on scholarship with have that honored, and I would expect nothing less from Clemson..
My even bigger concern is how much more of this is yet to come? This was not a one-time staggering blow. This is a slow burn erosion, with no revenue relief in sight. I can only imagine the economic woes of so many schools less financially sound than Clemson.
My hopes and prayers are, like so many of you, to come through this soon
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Tiger Titan [46593]
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How does this impact Title IX?
Nov 5, 2020, 2:50 PM
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I'm assuming it puts us beyond Title IX compliance, to the point that we can add a men's sport in the future if we wish without having to add a women's sport to compensate.
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Orange Immortal [67569]
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Well...
Nov 5, 2020, 2:55 PM
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when you consider the aquatics program (both the menz and wimminz) was eliminated a few years ago, and that wimminz golf and softball were just recently added, giving the menz 6 varsity sports and the wimminz 9 (based on the latest news), I'd say you're probably right.
If the University ever does decide to add another varsity sport for the menz, I suspect that would be Lacrosse.
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TigerNet Elite [73501]
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Re: Well...
Nov 5, 2020, 3:13 PM
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dear gawd no. anything but that sport
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Tiger Titan [46593]
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Why not? I think lacrosse would be a great addition.
Nov 5, 2020, 3:29 PM
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It's quickly growing in popularity in the south, the ACC is a really strong lacrosse conference, and we have a perfect venue for it in Riggs Field.
It will be more popular than track or cross country, that's for sure.
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TigerNet Elite [73501]
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Re: Why not? I think lacrosse would be a great addition.
Nov 5, 2020, 3:47 PM
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It's a stupid revenue drain sport. Is beating on people with sticks what we've become?
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Athletic Dir [1104]
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Says one who's never watched hurling...***
Nov 5, 2020, 5:49 PM
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Athletic Dir [1104]
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Game Day Hero [4507]
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Freshman [-94]
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Football, baseball, soccer, basketball, golf, & tennis ???***
Nov 5, 2020, 5:36 PM
[ in reply to Well... ] |
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Clemson Sports Icon [58852]
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Legend [6690]
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Re: I can only read that one way now....
Nov 5, 2020, 4:42 PM
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AWSOME ! HAHAHAH
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110%er [3645]
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Title IX isn’t about # of sports but scholarships
Nov 5, 2020, 3:15 PM
[ in reply to How does this impact Title IX? ] |
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So while there are more women’s sports than men’s, one of those men’s sports gives out 85 scholarships. The largest number of scholarships given for a women’s sport is rowing with 20. Right now Clemson gives out about 141.2 scholarships for men’s sports but 105 scholarships for women’s sports. The loss of 12.6 for cross-country/track&field won’t equalize those numbers.
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Orange Immortal [67569]
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The latest decision isn't about closing the gap...
Nov 5, 2020, 3:17 PM
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on scholarship numbers.
It's entirely about decreased revenue and the cost of continuing to fund those programs. It's totally and completely economic.
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Tiger Titan [46593]
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I understand the reasoning, but I was still curious
Nov 5, 2020, 3:30 PM
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how it would impact Title IX.
At some point, I'm sure we will want to add new sports, so this decision today might have an impact.
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Orange Phenom [14539]
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Paw Warrior [4799]
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I really hate to hear this.
Nov 5, 2020, 2:53 PM
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I hope they can add the sports back in a few years. 
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Game Day Hero [4330]
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Well, that is brain dead stupid
Nov 5, 2020, 2:56 PM
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You would think with the success of Football, all the YUGE money flowing in, if anything they should be EXPANDING the athletic programs. Contrary to urban myth, people care about other Sports besides Football.
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Tiger Titan [46593]
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Athletic department revenue is way down due to the pandemic.
Nov 5, 2020, 3:00 PM
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Something's gotta give.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 2:59 PM
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That stinks, I guess we were not in it for the long run.
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Rival Killer [3069]
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I see what you did, "long run" that's funny***
Nov 5, 2020, 7:57 PM
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Valley Legend [12867]
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Title IX was a really bad thing that happened to collegiate
Nov 5, 2020, 3:02 PM
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athletic depts. It assumes an equal participation in sports of men and women. I don't believe that has ever been true, even now.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Title IX was a really bad thing that happened to collegiate
Nov 5, 2020, 3:07 PM
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disagree completely
sincerely - a father of an athletic daughter and with family members as both NCAA athletes and coaches.
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All-Time Great [96659]
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Know that FB Program is having $ problems too!
Nov 5, 2020, 3:10 PM
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If you’d like to donate, go for it TiGER Fan.
Called IPTAY.
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Valley Legend [12867]
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Orange Phenom [14539]
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Re: Title IX was good for it's time
Nov 5, 2020, 3:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Title IX was a really bad thing that happened to collegiate ] |
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And still has it's merits.
It's how AD's chose to interpret the Prongs and work within the framework to achieve their objective that is frustrating.
Said differently gettin women opportunities is still worthwhile, however, Athletic Departments are using Title IX to justify Budget cuts, which subsequently take away men's opportunities.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Title IX was good for it's time
Nov 5, 2020, 4:06 PM
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I think it is an easy out for ADs but most chose to chase 2-3 sports at the cost of other sports. An AD will get more credit for one championship in one sport than being 2nd place in conference in 10 sports.
Back in the Bowden era, even Clemson decided it was going to go laser-focus on football. We (like other ads at other schools) consciously decided to focus on a handful of sports to become more competitive since some of the smallerish schools (like clemson) would not be able to match $ for $ like some large schools like Ohio State, UCLA, Texas, across all sports. You saw sport being dropped 10-20 year ago as this trend got kick-started. Other programs actually went in an opposite direction and got murdered. Maryland is the most obvious example as they tried to both expand many sports while also investing in football/basketball etc. It can't work unless you are a top 5 or maybe top 10 sized school.
Not saying this is wrong but to blame title IX is a big incorrect. Basically we are investing in football over track/Xcountry not women sports over mens.
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Orange Phenom [14539]
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Re: Title IX was good for it's time
Nov 5, 2020, 4:52 PM
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I agree, and, Dan Radakovich has a history of trying to eliminate Track & CC in general.
At GT, He cut the roster size in half for both Men's and Women's, and eliminated Scholarships in 2010. I have friends on staff at GT and they were so thankful he got hired away. They told me, you'll have everything you want for Football, but don't be surprised if you don't have a track/CC program in a few years.
That's his playbook.
It's not about Title IX, but it's conveniently there to hide behind as a way to justify their choices.
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Freshman [-94]
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Had it been as conceived it would have been fine but
Nov 5, 2020, 5:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: Title IX was a really bad thing that happened to collegiate ] |
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almost from day 1 the far left and feminists sought to coop it because they saw how to weaponize it against their bogeyman, male patriarchy and centers of white male power. Step 1 was force football scholarships into the compliance equation, which everyone knew was about power and politics and was a very bad idea with predictable unintended consequences. But in reality we are exactly where the left, activists, femi-nazis, etc. knew it would go.
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Orange Immortal [67569]
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Title IX isn't really about equal participation...
Nov 5, 2020, 3:13 PM
[ in reply to Title IX was a really bad thing that happened to collegiate ] |
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It's more about an equal allocation of scholarships which is why wimminz on the rowing team, softball team, and soccer team all have full rides while the men playing anything other than football and basketball don't.
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Freshman [-94]
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That was the original intent, but the far left from day 1
Nov 5, 2020, 5:29 PM
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turned it into something so much more. Now it is an abused law by the left for anything the far left can convince an activist judge is a female issue, esp racism and sexism where it does not exist and gives universities the power to act like civil courts to crush men and boys without due process.
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Orange Phenom [14539]
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Don't let anyone ever tell you this is anything other than a
Nov 5, 2020, 3:13 PM
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budget decision. Athletic Departments justify cutting programs under the guise of Title IX all the time. It's a farce. Instead of cutting budgets across the board, they select 1 of 3 prongs in satisfying Title IX eligibility that allows them save face by saying it was for Title IX, when reality is they are just spineless and want to spend the money elsewhere.
Track and Cross Country on the men's side has been on a slide for 8-10 years now. They didn't make any coaching changes as it helps justify their decision when the program "isn't competitive".
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All-TigerNet [5660]
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 3:23 PM
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I was a sprinter walk-on in 1962. Banks McFadden was my coach, so I hate hearing this because Clemson has a fairly good history in Track & Field.
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Game Day Hero [4180]
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Sad (& tough) decision
Nov 5, 2020, 3:24 PM
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Given the current circumstances, something was gonna have to give due to financial impacts. Yes it sucks due to the history our men's track & XC programs have had over the years. But again, given the financial crunch & figure in the lack of recent success compared to some of the other Olympic sports, I understand where this was the route to take to absorb the financial hit & to maintain the Title IX stuff. Hopefully when things improved they'll try to look @ bringing at least 1 of the programs back, or maybe another men's program like wrestling (which doesn't have as many scholarships as XC or T&F). Time will tell, I guess. Just hate it for the student-athletes & coaches b/c at the end of the day, they're the 1s most affected.
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Orange Elite [5125]
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 3:52 PM
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Unacceptable. Totally unacceptable.
As little as t&f and cc cost to run, I don’t understand this decision at all.
How do all you ####### that demanded refunds of your donations feel about this.
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Orange Phenom [14539]
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Men's Cross country is the least expensive
Nov 5, 2020, 3:54 PM
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sport there is.
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Orange Immortal [67569]
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Not too sure about that***
Nov 5, 2020, 4:06 PM
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Orange Elite [5125]
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Re: Not too sure about that***
Nov 5, 2020, 4:13 PM
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Only one that might be close is golf. Golf is barely a sport...
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Orange Immortal [67569]
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When you factor in all of the traveling expenses...
Nov 5, 2020, 4:22 PM
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for a roster of roughly forty participants, and all of the equipment that has to be maintained/replaced, I think you'll find that T & F is quite pricey.
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Team Captain [458]
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Re: When you factor in all of the traveling expenses...
Nov 5, 2020, 4:50 PM
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No sir. Absolutely false.
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Orange Phenom [14539]
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Re: When you factor in all of the traveling expenses...
Nov 5, 2020, 4:53 PM
[ in reply to When you factor in all of the traveling expenses... ] |
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I said Cross Country, not Track.
Most program keep around 10-14 on the men's, and 12-18 on the women's....depends on the coach/program. The realiaty, you could have a really Cross Country only program for about 4 scholarships, with a fraction of the budget of XC/Indoor/Outdoortrack.
But, to expand you your thoughts around track roster and travel: Roster limits for Track for Men is 36 for most schools. Further, never does a school anyone travel with that many. There are always 10-15 that stay back for a myriad of reason (Event limits, Injuries, not ready to compete, competing on a different weekend, etc).
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Paw Master [16856]
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Tiger Cub [12]
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 4:07 PM
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As a CC runner in early 90s, this makes me sad.
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Orange Beast [6574]
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 4:16 PM
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This is an embarrassment. The track and field program is significant on a world stage. Having a gold medalist as recently as 2016.
But let’s spend another few million on video boards.
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Varsity [207]
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 4:25 PM
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This is really devastating to me personally. We were such a great program with so few controversies, great grades, many titles, champions and gold medalists. It's why I came to Clemson to begin with. I know we never brought in any money. I just didn't know that was a prerequisite requirement to be a college sport now.
It's all about the money. It's hard for me to hear about the tough financial times Clemson Athletics is under when I look at that Occulus, that amazing football facility and see they can't even scrap together enough to keep us around. When we already have the facility! To the people that are hoping it will come back... it never will, the program that has been destroyed by our leadership. The first problem was not making sure to get Duane Ross as our coach one way or another, then the slide into mediocrity or less than that these days.
I worked my way up as a regular guy from a books scholarship and learned that hard work paid off, it helped me to stay focused throughout my education, and earned 10 total ACC championships (individual and team) as we just dominated the competition. Other schools knew we were going to destroy them when we walked into ACC's. I'm so thankful for those memories, but that's all it will ever be for anyone anymore. Enjoy the $. I'll probably take a few years off buying Clemson merchandise, but that doesn't matter I suppose.
I'm glad to hear the athletes get to keep their scholarship money and thankful for the times we've had.
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Paw Warrior [4741]
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Dark Day
Nov 5, 2020, 4:44 PM
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I ran track and CC in college, so I'm biased. But this is a dark day for not just Clemson, but for all of those teams that traditionally show up for Clemson events. One of my fondest memories from running in college is running at Clemson in front of my family.
That they kept the women's teams seems very wrong to me. I'm happy for those ladies, but this is blatant discrimination. And I think it'll have an impact on football recruiting. Do we land CJ Spiller without our track team? Something to think about. Besides, not having men's track & field, and CC, is just freaking bush league.
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Team Captain [458]
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Re: Dark Day
Nov 5, 2020, 5:20 PM
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I sent you a Tmail!!!
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Team Captain [458]
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Clemson cutting men's track/xc programs-Coach's reaction
Nov 5, 2020, 4:52 PM
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Hey gang,
As as Alum, I've got a young man that is on the XC/Track team, whom I coached in HS and after. The guys had their highest finish in 5 years just last week at the ACC Champ's and with ZERO scholarships on the XC team. I ask that folks not be flippant about how this is affecting supporters of the program like me and most importantly, the young men who work so hard to represent our University. This is a very emotional and difficult day. Make no mistake, we will fight the powers that handed down this decision because it does NOT make any logical sense. Some highlights:
-Clemson will still have the same Coaching costs as they still will have the same Coaches, just they will be coaching Ladies only
-Their won't be any facilities savings because again, the facility will still need to be opened and maintained, just being used by Ladies only.
-XC/Track is either the MOST diverse sport on Clemson's campus or 2nd in diversity to only Football
-Any dual football/track athletes, and we've had a few really good ones, will look elsewhere
Mike
97'
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Freshman [1]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Clemson cutting men's track/xc programs-Coach's reaction
Nov 5, 2020, 5:22 PM
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Hey gang,
As as Alum, I've got a young man that is on the XC/Track team, whom I coached in HS and after. The guys had their highest finish in 5 years just last week at the ACC Champ's and with ZERO scholarships on the XC team. I ask that folks not be flippant about how this is affecting supporters of the program like me and most importantly, the young men who work so hard to represent our University. This is a very emotional and difficult day. Make no mistake, we will fight the powers that handed down this decision because it does NOT make any logical sense. Some highlights:
-Clemson will still have the same Coaching costs as they still will have the same Coaches, just they will be coaching Ladies only
-Their won't be any facilities savings because again, the facility will still need to be opened and maintained, just being used by Ladies only.
-XC/Track is either the MOST diverse sport on Clemson's campus or 2nd in diversity to only Football
-Any dual football/track athletes, and we've had a few really good ones, will look elsewhere
Mike
97'
I hate it because I have a friend from our church on the team, and he was one of the leaders toward the end of this season. Sure hate it for him!
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Orange Beast [6575]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 4:58 PM
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Well this is one you can definitely call a COVID death. Not sure why this isn’t merely a suspension of these sports instead of dropping them. Folks these are most of the original Olympic sports we are dropping here. This is sad. I’ll bet if you donated $2M today to IPTAY it would not change this decision - they would try to plug some other over priced hole instead.
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Legend [6690]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 5:00 PM
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I hate to hear it, but it may get worse as Clemson scrambles to keep up with 'likeness' income other schools can offer. Come to LSU, our left guard sold 1,000 jerseys last year and made 12 personal appearances .
As pointed out already, mens and women's teams in the same sport do give out different numbers of scholarships. In soccer men max is 9.9, women is 16.
Could they not just claim to identify as a woman and join that team? It's happening at the HS level, and females are getting tired of it.
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Tiger Spirit [9766]
TigerPulse: 55%
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Joined: 2006
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 5:48 PM
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Very sad that successful programs over the years are among the COVID victims.
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Tiger Spirit [9491]
TigerPulse: 100%
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We could probably save more money if we cut men's bassetball
Nov 5, 2020, 6:03 PM
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we spend a lot of $$ there and s. u. ck at it.
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Walk-On [116]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 6:43 PM
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Mom of a current freshman men's xc and track student athlete. We are heartbroken. And mad. But go one and make jokes. This is devastating. And it makes our University look really really bad. I have a ton more I could say, but right now I'm just heartbroken.
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Game Day Hero [4513]
TigerPulse: 93%
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 6:47 PM
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You can thank your WOKE folks ....good job
Message was edited by: spiderman_x10®
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Standout [242]
TigerPulse: 94%
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Unpopular Opinion Here
Nov 5, 2020, 7:07 PM
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I have often wondered why colleges give so many (or any at all) scholarships to athletes in non-revenue sports. Does having those athletes on campus add that much to the college experience for the other students? Would it be better to give those scholarships based on academics or character or need, etc? Would it be better to spend the money on a better intramural program?
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1st Rounder [607]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 5, 2020, 10:33 PM
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This is a sad day indeed - makes no difference if its Title IX, COVID or anything. I'm with you Mike 97. As an alum from the 80's when Track and XC were special this is a bitter pill to swallow and will save little money. I fail to see how this will turn the COVID financial tide in our favor. Bad choice Dan!
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Freshman [10]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: TNET: Clemson athletics cutting men's track and cross country programs
Nov 6, 2020, 8:17 AM
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Total shame. The program at Clemson had been one of the best until recent years. Maybe reconsidering the personnel guiding the program would have been a better choice. You're going to see a trickle-down effect with football from this.
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