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TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 2:51 PM
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The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
The Clemson offense has been good this season, ranking 21st nationally in total offense. One complaint seen on social media has been the lack – or the perceived lack – of using the middle of the field. Too many screen passes, not enough deep shots for a team that has a smorgasbord of deep threats and one of the best quarterbacks in college football. Full Story » |
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Rival Killer [2847]
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I was asking this question, but only watching on TV
Oct 1, 2019, 3:00 PM
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So based on Coach’s comments I may not have seen the big picture. I was just thinking if they are taking away Tee and Justyn downfield, and blitzing linebackers all day, they must be leaving the middle open. I think sometimes the limited view on TV gives us wrong information. Glad Dabo talked about it though.
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Orange Blooded [2385]
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Regarding the screens...
Oct 1, 2019, 3:07 PM
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Yeah, I know that the wide receiver screens are intended to be an extension of the running game. Problem is the defense is playing up close on the running game AND on the screens. The result is the same-- both the run and the screens are getting stuffed. According to David's statistics, we are wasting 20% of our offensive plays on screens that gain at best one yard. This will not change until we convert one of the screens into a hitch-and-go and burn the defense for an easy TD... just like OJ Howard did to us in two NCGs. Then, the defense will have to back off a step, and maybe the screen will be a viable play. Until then, it will continue to be a wasted down. JMO. And here's a fresh idea: how about a wheel route on one of the RPOs? I don't think we've run a wheel since CJ was here.
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TigerNet Zenith XVII [∞]
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Re: Regarding the screens...
Oct 1, 2019, 3:19 PM
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I was watching Duke and VT Friday night, and I noticed early that Duke had a screen and go, but the QB was hit and didn't get the pass off. I wondered when and if they would come back to it, and they did in the second half. They were in VT territory and they faked the screen and then both outside guys went deep. Not one defender went with them...it was as easy a touchdown as you will see. Love me some David Cutcliffe.
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Orange Immortal [60774]
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Re: Regarding the screens...
Oct 1, 2019, 5:07 PM
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All these games that we have played this far, they were supposed to of been easy games for us with the exception of the A&M game that turned out to be one of our easiest games. Dabo and our coaches have been brilliant at building depth during the season and it has worked out well by sending in youth to obtain experience. I think that sometimes gets to easy to do and it becomes habit. But I think that now a little bit of restraint should be used bc everybody we play will do everything they can to stop our coaches from using them as a practice team every Saturday to build depth and helping us in November, December, and January if we make it to the NC game, the last game that only two teams will play in!!!
I believe that from this point in the season, our starters and second team has to get back in top FB shaped bc to make it to the championship games and win, we're not going to have the depth that we were used to having last year bc of all that we lost to the NFL last season. That's just my opinion that could be way off base, and from the outside looking in and not knowing what the coaches know, what I say is just an opinion, nothing more or nothing less.
I just don't think even with playing a lot of players every game, we're not going to be a solid 3 deep the way we were at the end of last season's championship run. If we go undefeated again this year, it will have to be done with only a 2 deep rotation, and again, just my opinion. But coaches can some time's along with the fans get spoiled with seeing an abundance of game ready players ready to go in and do the same job as the starters and the two deep guys can do, and I don't see us having that type of experience this year, and our two deep depth sure better get the reps and get in top shape that it takes to win championships, just saying!!!
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Rival Killer [3072]
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Re: Regarding the screens...
Oct 2, 2019, 10:48 AM
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I agree with you that we probably won't be 3 deep at most positions like we were last year. I think some of the issue with even finding the 2 deep this year, is a lot of 2nd and 3rd string guys haven't seen the field much prior to this year. So, the coaches have to play them both to figure out who is ready to step up and provide that depth.
Last year, we could bring in 2-3 2nd string guys to play with the first string, and not really lose a step (specifically on the DL and at LB where players rotated constantly). This year, with so many talented but inexperienced guys, we're still having to try all the different combinations to see who steps up. That is tough to do while maintaining the same level of communication between players.
I think as the season progresses, we'll see certain guys pull away and see a more clear second string emerge and gain confidence.
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Oculus Spirit [41793]
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Clemson Conqueror [11615]
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Re: Regarding the screens...
Oct 1, 2019, 4:29 PM
[ in reply to Regarding the screens... ] |
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As i was reading your post, my next post was going to be what about the Wheel. But I think the OL was playing so poorly that they needed that chip block from the RB. Pretty sure we hit TF on a couple Wheels last couple yrs and Fuller definitely had some great wheels. ETN doesn't have great hands but they have bragged about Duke's hands but what about using Amari, he looks like a RB anyway.
Also, why not use 4WR sets to pull corners and Safeties to the boundries to open the center of the field and give our studs some 50/50 balls, back shoulders and TE down the seem. I'm sure we may have had 4WR but i dont recall any plays. Just seemed to be way too vanilla.
Also if the screens were not working and ETN needed some space outside, why not some option plays since we ran TL 11 times anyway. Why not any pitches?
I think no rythym comes from poor playcalling not allowing guys to get into rythym, just my .02!
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CU Medallion [18000]
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with our stable of wrs
Oct 1, 2019, 7:34 PM
[ in reply to Regarding the screens... ] |
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who can beat most any db in the country..we should be forcing defenses to shut them down..they just tee off on the screen passes..reminds me of when we played v tech after beating g tech when spence was the oc
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110%er [3775]
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Re: Regarding the screens...
Oct 1, 2019, 8:25 PM
[ in reply to Regarding the screens... ] |
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We did run a few wheel routes with Fuller and maybe a couple to Feaster. But in my limited knowledge a hitch and go on the screen should be a option the way Defenses are playing us.
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Clemson Conqueror [11484]
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Re: Regarding the screens...
Oct 2, 2019, 1:30 PM
[ in reply to Regarding the screens... ] |
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We have already done this and Amari scored a TD against Syracuse on the fake screen.
We also tried it Saturday as well and it was not open. TL faked the screen, looked downfield, and then had to figure something out because the safety played the route.
A play that I think is really hard to stop is the RPO concept where we roll out before choosing the pass option.
Frequently we run RPOs where the pass is from the pocket.
We ran it with the QB rolling one time Saturday and TL completed the ball to Amari. We used to do this a lot with Deshaun. I hope we start to see it more with TL.
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Game Changer [2085]
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Re: So far this season
Oct 1, 2019, 3:49 PM
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the Tigers are 5-0. Cant' argue with that but it doesn't seem this team has a mission. It shows teams like Alabama, Ohio St., Georgia, LSU are playing with fire in their belly and a killer instinct. Even though we are undefeated just don't detect passion and the want to remind College football teams who the Tigers really are. No doubt the next 7 games will remind everyone one way or the other.
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Dynasty Maker [3277]
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Whenever the coaches are wrong . . .
Oct 1, 2019, 3:51 PM
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statistics are usually referred to to defend them. The missing element in the analysis here is situational - it's one thing to say they didn't run more screens than statistically typical, it's another to say that the ones they did run were warranted situationally. If UNC is stuff the run, and the screens aren't working either, then we're spitting into the wind by continuing to do it as much as we did, *even if* it's not beyond the normal stats. Wasted downs and possessions aren't any less wasted simply b/c the overall stats are consistent with prior seasons.
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Scout Team [89]
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Legend [18408]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 2, 2019, 6:57 AM
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Couldn’t agree more. Give the kid a chance.
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Game Changer [1878]
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ETN must step up his blocking effort. 3 times, #21 for UNC
Oct 1, 2019, 4:11 PM
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got past him. Twice for a sack, and once a hurried throw. You gotta believe opponents noticed this too. We need to release the tight end down the middle to counter that interior blitz.
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Orange Blooded [2111]
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Chazz Surratt
Oct 2, 2019, 8:58 AM
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is a beast. ETN had no chance blocking him. He could chip him if someone else was blocking him, but one on one Surratt wins majority of the time. I don't fault ETN in that situation. There were a lot of stunts, blitzes, and other components that allowed Surratt to get back there so often. Surratt is their best defensive player from what I've noticed in all their games this season. He is everywhere and he hits hard. Its hard to believe he was their QB last season.
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Clemson Conqueror [11484]
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Re: ETN must step up his blocking effort. 3 times, #21 for UNC
Oct 2, 2019, 1:25 PM
[ in reply to ETN must step up his blocking effort. 3 times, #21 for UNC ] |
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One of the sacks that is being placed on ETN was when one of our interior linemen turned a DL loose to ETN and the proceeded to stand there with nobody to block.
ETN can be expected to block LBs but he will lose every single time to a DL one on one.
That was on our lineman and not on ETN.
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Freshman [10]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 4:21 PM
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My uneducated observation of Saturday’s game against UNC is that the offensive line didn’t protect Trevor. UNC had a free run of our QB.
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CU Medallion [18213]
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The biggest problem with the OL was the 6 false starts
Oct 1, 2019, 5:01 PM
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It was the RBs who whiffed a lot on pass pro.
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Varsity [101]
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So what was open?
Oct 1, 2019, 4:36 PM
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Associate AD [1041]
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Re: So what was open?
Oct 1, 2019, 8:43 PM
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A lot of coach speak, we weren't doing the things to take advantage of what they were giving us. I have wondered why we aren't using 4 wide out instead forcing a tight end. I think that would have worked well against uncle. Also etn had trouble with surratt it was a bad matchup for us we kept going back to
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Orange Blooded [2723]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 5:07 PM
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Ok so they took away the screens, intermediate throws, sideline throws (says no chunk plays after the first quarter), and the middle? And the run game wasn’t really humming.
So they took away every aspect of the passing game. How is that possible?
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Varsity [101]
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That's what I was saying
Oct 1, 2019, 5:16 PM
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Recruit [91]
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Re: That's what I was saying
Oct 1, 2019, 6:29 PM
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I love Trevor but he’s been staring down receivers all year. I can tell who he’s going to throw it to as soon as he snaps it just about. It’s not even 2 looks most the time unless it’s a play action that he has to look at the rb to try and sell the fake. Last year he was scanning the field and idk if it’s cause the coaches are putting to much on him or he’s worried about not getting big plays but it’s showing.
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Clemson Conqueror [11843]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 5:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense? ] |
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And let's not forget how many time the Tigers shot themselves in the foot with penalties, overthrows, stumbles, missed tackles. And a field goal by Potter would have eliminated the end game drama. And as has already been mentioned, a bevy of missed blocks. A good time to have an extra week to re-work all this stuff.
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Legend [6710]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 5:09 PM
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Is Trevor allowed to audible any or is he only given choices on RPOs? Seems like a few changes at the line or even dummy calls might help. I know we still do the look to the sideline thing but otherwise we need to catch the D out of position, whether that’s in a hurry up or changing the play. Just doesn’t seem to be a lot of open ground for our guys to operate.
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Dynasty Maker [3346]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 10:37 PM
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Part of the problem on some of the RPO’s is it is the QB’s discretion. Tony stated he had the RPO on on the 3rd down where we threw the screen and were stopped. Then missed the FG.
Basically he said it was a bad play call for him not to take it off and just hand the ball off to ETN without a choice for the QB.
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Game Changer [1800]
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How did UNC take away the short-middle with 2 high safeties?
Oct 1, 2019, 5:15 PM
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Dabo said that UNC took away the middle of the field but he didn't say how. UNC was mostly running a 4-man fron (as Dabo said) with 2 high safeties, frequently blitzing LBs. It seemed like the short middle of the field was usually vacant (including vacant of our receivers).
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Solid Orange [1316]
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Re: How did UNC take away the short-middle with 2 high safeties?
Oct 2, 2019, 8:41 AM
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You can't take away the middle of the field and the outside...we were not making yardage on those outside flips either...they were essentially wasted plays and most teams are not going to cover Higgins and company one on one so the safeties must be in on those as well...a good tight end over the middle makes the linebackers react and sometimes the safeties too and we have not done this well in years except with Renfrow! For back shoulder throws you have to stare at the receiver to some degree...right time to throw it...otherwise it will not matter...but if you are going to be a pro quarterback you will need more that staring and right now Clemson needs to just get 'mad dog mean' to coin an Eastwood phrase! If we show the competition the whole playbook right now they still should not be able to cover it...can't believe that dirtyfootu was that good!
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Rock Defender [74]
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black hole
Oct 1, 2019, 6:34 PM
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So, let me get this straight, every team this year has taken away the moddle of the field? Then if that's the case, run crossing slants and dig routes. Our talent is head and shoulders above our competition, and we need to adapt. Go Tigers.
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Paw Master [17333]
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WRU is a misnomer if our O falls all to shat when a former
Oct 1, 2019, 6:40 PM
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walk-om graduates...Give me an F-ing brake on the "we miss Renfrow" #########
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Paw Master [17333]
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the truth triggers cowards***
Oct 2, 2019, 11:30 AM
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Playmaker [368]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 6:58 PM
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Screens only work where there are more Os than X’s at the point of attack. UNC had three guys out there to our 2. Not hard to defend when it’s that predictable.
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All-Time Great [92723]
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Passes to middle of the field have definitely been lacking
Oct 1, 2019, 7:15 PM
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but I’ve also wondered why we hardly run any jet sweeps anymore. We ran them a lot when Morris was here and they worked most of the time. I remember one game, we had Artavis Scott run it several times against the coots and he had a huge game. They never could stop it that day.
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Recruit [78]
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Re: Passes to middle of the field have definitely been lacking
Oct 1, 2019, 7:45 PM
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He sure did it was amazing. Also liked the pre snap movement, just not on every play as we used to do. A couple times a game to see if we can get the defense to show there hand. Also wouldn't mind seeing some type of stretch play or off tackle runs.
I do think our OC's have improved us with a more physical and slow paced offensive gameplans. To a National Championship football contender year in and year out. But some of the old play book could be sprinkled in nicely.
Also think this years team will be just fine and we will see them make it to the playoffs once again.
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Orange Immortal [60774]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 7:37 PM
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By most opinions of Michel Dukes as a receiver coming out of the backfield, and he has good hands, why hasn't he been ask to become a full time receiver at Hunters position, they are about the same height, but I think that Dukes maybe a little faster, and with his moves as a RB, he should find it easy to get seperation running routes. With the RBs we have and coming in, Dukes should jump at the chance of filling the spot that has been vacant since Hunter's departure, just asking?
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Game Day Hero [4113]
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It's just a poor job of scheming plays, bottom line.
Oct 1, 2019, 7:49 PM
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It's funny how Alabama or Oklahoma seems to never have this problem where teams are able to "take away" the middle of the field. Hell, we have some of the best athletes in the country. UNC should not have been able to match up with us one on one whatsoever. I'm tired of the players getting blamed when we all know that this is an offensive play calling/coaching issue.
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Rock Defender [50]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 9:17 PM
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What is frustrating to me is that I hear almost every week from the coaches that teams are playing to take away the run, but when I look at the running back averages I see 4.9 yards/carry or higher and 13 carries for one back and 7 carries it less for the other back. Who is stopping the run of you are averaging 4.9 yards a carry?! The coaches are, not the other team. You go and look at Jonathan Taylor averaging 4.6 yards with 26 carries and 119 yards. Can we please give Travis 20-25 carries and watch him take the pressure off Trevor and watch the passing lanes open up like the Red Sea. Wayne Gallman carries the ball more and helped Watson. Why put all of this pressure on Trevor when you have back like Travis? We are not allowing him to get in rhythm and we aren't allowing him to be special. Also, let this line beat up on someone... Please Tony Elliott, call some pure run plays... Set Travis and Dixon free and watch how this helps the offense.
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CU Guru [1457]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 1, 2019, 9:23 PM
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Other than Tee, is anything in our passing game reliable, Mikey Dukes Jr seems like he would be awesome catching swing passes out of the backfield, but Clemson isn't a great screen team & Mikey rarely plays
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All-TigerNet [5818]
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The middle of the field should have been wide open
Oct 1, 2019, 9:39 PM
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because it seems Chazz Surratt was all up in our backfield on almost every play.
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CU Guru [1457]
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Re: The middle of the field should have been wide open
Oct 1, 2019, 9:58 PM
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ETN was very suspect blocking, I kept wondering why Lyn-J wasn't given a chance, he had done a pretty good blocking in the previous games
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1st Rounder [654]
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Situational play calling was the issue!!!
Oct 2, 2019, 6:10 AM
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All we needed to do in the second half was go to an up tempo run, run, run game in the second half and for some unknown reason, refused to do it!!! It was ridiculous!! They are thin on defense , it's 90 degrees and we're 2 deep at most spots!! We had several nice 1 st down runs , with 2nd and 5 or less and threw ridiculous screens or 50/50 deep balls on 2nd and 3rd downs. We could have and should have pounded them into submission! It's football 101 and although we've got a very accomplished staff , they simply choked last Sat. It happens to the best of them.
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1st Rounder [654]
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Re: Situational play calling was the issue!!!
Oct 2, 2019, 6:15 AM
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Oh , and BTW, your linemen don't stand around for 20 seconds and jump offdides , while trying to figure out where the blitz is coming from and who to block. You get up to the line, snap the #### ball and run the defense from sideline to sideline without a break. Our tempo was pathetic.
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MVP [521]
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Re: TNET: The Renfrow Effect?: What has happened to middle of field for offense?
Oct 2, 2019, 9:59 AM
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Dabo is being a good head coach and saying the right thing. Middle deep was covered, but the "Renfroe" area was not on those large amounts of middle blitzes. I think that 1- Dabo isn't going to throw his coaches under the bus because they blew the play calls and/or he is not going to throw kids under the bus because they did not make the right adjustments or 2- Maybe the coaches don't feel as confident with the current receivers to run the "Renfroe" routes. What I do have is the confidence that it will get fixed, because of the last few years we have actually learned from our mistakes.
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