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Trainer [49]
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Lebron = GOAT
Jun 1, 2018, 1:04 AM
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Absolutely absurd what happened tonight. Lebron is the GOAT in my eyes and I can’t imagine anyone ever being better. The Cavs organization is a complete dumpster fire that Lebron drug into the finals just to get beat by JR Smith, and the Refs. And don’t give me the he wouldn’t survive in the 80-90s BS. He’s head and shoulders bigger and faster then all those players back then, it wouldn’t be fair to them having to go against a genetic freak like Lebron.
Message was edited by: JDude43
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110%er [4056]
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Meh, nobody plays defense these days
Jun 1, 2018, 2:36 AM
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He's a great player but he's not the GOAT. Imo, he's more in the mold of a Magic Johnson but I think even Magic was better. After these finals his record will be 3-6. Yea, it's definitely an accomplishment to make it to 9 finals appearances but Magic also had 9 finals appearances and he won 5 of those appearances. Not to mention Magic played in a much better era. People automatically want to compare Lebron to other GOAT's just because he's one of the best of this era but I honestly wouldn't even put him in the top 5 of all time.
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Orange Blooded [2340]
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Re: Meh, nobody plays defense these days
Jun 1, 2018, 6:36 AM
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It's ridiculous to try to make an argument against Lebron James solely based on his record in the NBA Finals. Take the 2015 Finals against Golden State for example—Lebron averaged 36 pts, 13 rebs, and 9 assists per game in what is considered statistically to be arguably the greatest individual performance of all time in an NBA Finals. To argue that Lebron is somehow worse than someone else because he played against one of the greatest NBA teams of all time in the Warriors without Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving (after Game 1) is insane. If all that matters are championships then Robert Horry is better than Magic Johnson.
Magic was definitely one of the top 5 of all time, but to give him all of the credit for five championships won under Pat Riley with Kareem and James Worthy. Also, I find it amusing how often people like to cite the rule changes about hand checking as an argument against Lebron James while simultaneously neglecting to mention the rule change that allowed zone defense to be played in the NBA for the first time in 2003. Scoring in the NBA went down signficantly after the zone defense rule was changed which supports the idea that it's actually more difficult to play offense in the NBA in the current era. Even with the exponential increase in 3 pointers as the game has shifted more to a European style of play the scoring is still down from in the 80's.
I'll admit that MJ was the best of all time at his peak, but to put Lebron anywhere other than slightly behind Jordan at second is just plain nuts.
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Associate AD [1071]
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Re: Meh, nobody plays defense these days
Jun 1, 2018, 10:05 AM
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Yeah he scored 51 last night and would've beaten an NBA all-star team basically by himself if it wasn't for his atrocious teammates, like JR Smith
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Ring of Honor [23955]
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That is a ridiculous and uninformed statement.
Jun 1, 2018, 10:10 AM
[ in reply to Meh, nobody plays defense these days ] |
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Just like in the NFL, there are good defensive teams and there are bad ones. The bad ones don't typically make it to the Championship.
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Dynasty Maker [3433]
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Re: Meh, nobody plays defense these days
Jun 1, 2018, 11:11 AM
[ in reply to Meh, nobody plays defense these days ] |
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Nah man, love him or hate him, there's no argument against Lebron being any lower than second. I'm still in the MJ = GOAT camp, but Lebron is insanely good. As a Massachusetts guy, it's hard to say he's better than Bird, but he just is. If he hadn't screwed himself by trying to be a player and GM and coach, Lebron would go down as the best of all time. He's unquestionably the most complete player ever.
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Campus Hero [14067]
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The "nobody plays defense in the NBA anymore"
Jun 1, 2018, 11:16 AM
[ in reply to Meh, nobody plays defense these days ] |
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argument is the worst, most uninformed, anti-NBA argument used these days and i see it all of the time. It basically just tells me you don't actually watch the NBA.
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Dynasty Maker [3433]
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Re: The "nobody plays defense in the NBA anymore"
Jun 1, 2018, 11:31 AM
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Yea, the defense in the NBA playoffs is great. It's much more non-contact than it was in the past, but to say people don't play defense is way off.
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Tiger Titan [49891]
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Dude you're a
Jun 1, 2018, 3:14 AM
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DA. This has nothing to do with Clemson or football. You and Jefferson deserve banning for stupidity alone.
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Top TigerNet [32630]
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Bill lambeer would hold James to 20 pts
Jun 1, 2018, 7:37 AM
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And 3 black eyes
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Orange Immortal [68088]
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^^^THIS...a thousand times this ^^^^***
Jun 1, 2018, 9:34 AM
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Trainer [49]
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Re: Bill lambeer would hold James to 20 pts
Jun 1, 2018, 9:36 AM
[ in reply to Bill lambeer would hold James to 20 pts ] |
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Lebron is bigger than him. Dude was the biggest guy in the league at ONLY 240lbs. Lebron is 260-265.
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Top TigerNet [32630]
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He's also a pansy. Barely got fouled, but fell
Jun 1, 2018, 9:53 AM
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On the ground and curled up in the fetal position...fishing for a red card I guess
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Varsity [100]
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Did you see his eye for proof?
Jun 1, 2018, 4:20 PM
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Draymond sure seems like the type to barely foul a guy. Thug.
Would love to see you take 4 fingers to the eyeballs and see if you don't fall to the ground.
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Ring of Honor [23955]
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LeBron would have whipped Laimbeer's ###.
Jun 1, 2018, 10:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: Bill lambeer would hold James to 20 pts ] |
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Laimbeer was an unskilled thug, but Lebron wouldn't have put up with his crap. He would have dished it right back at him.
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Top TigerNet [32630]
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Your just jelly of the way Laimbeer looked in his short shorts***
Jun 1, 2018, 11:35 AM
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All-In [37023]
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just having weight does not make someone
Jun 1, 2018, 10:41 AM
[ in reply to Re: Bill lambeer would hold James to 20 pts ] |
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a physical player. Like GVille said. Lebron is one of the best touch foul and fall down players I've seen. To me that takes away from his overall game which is great btw. In the day he would have been beaten to death with no fouls called because that is how basketball was played before rules got put in place to protect scorers.
It backs up my point that it's difficult to compare players now to players then.
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Ring of Honor [23955]
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It doesn't sound like you watch basketball if you suggest
Jun 1, 2018, 11:07 AM
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that Lebron James is "touch down and fall down player." That is an opinion not based upon fact.
He gets hammered repeatedly and, perhaps because of his size, they don't call it.
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Campus Hero [14067]
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Lebron finishes through contact better than anyone
Jun 1, 2018, 11:20 AM
[ in reply to just having weight does not make someone ] |
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in the league right now and it's not even close. At the end of game 7 against Boston, Lebron got out on a fast break and Marcus Morris (who weighs 235-240 and is pretty darn strong) tried to horse collar Lebron from behind with both hands on his shoulders pulling him backwards. Lebron layed it in like he had just brushed a fly off his back.
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Ring of Honor [23186]
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National Champion [7712]
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Lebron = Peyton
Jun 1, 2018, 8:08 AM
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Lebron is like Peyton Manning. Really good at what he does and has moments of being in the GOAT conversation but results seem to always get in the way when you get to end of that conversation.Puts up big stats no doubt but at the end of the game you giving it LEbron? or would you rather Micheal, Earvin, Larry or "insert name here" have the ball? Think Lebron is very good and is a top 5 historical talent but not the best of the best.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [105576]
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At the end of the game, needing one shot to win
Jun 1, 2018, 8:32 AM
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the Finals, I give the ball to MJ first and Lebron second.
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All-In [37023]
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The difference is
Jun 1, 2018, 8:36 AM
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Lebron wouldn't be able to take the beating the players of the 80's and 90's took. With the extremely limited contact they let them have today he flops all over the court getting foul calls. In basketball's prime those wouldn't be fouls it would be normal play. Today's NBA is softened up so much it's pitiful.
Don't get me wrong he is a great player and excels in this era, I'm just not sure how that would translate to what others did when basketball was more physical.
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Trainer [49]
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Re: The difference is
Jun 1, 2018, 9:38 AM
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Those 210-220lb PFs wouldn’t be able to match up with Lebron physically. Guys we’re small back then.
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Associate AD [841]
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Re: The difference is
Jun 1, 2018, 9:44 AM
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I’m with you. I think Lebron is the GOAT. If you base it on rings along, Bill Russell would be better than MJ. MJ’s Bulls were essentially what the warriors are now, and they don’t get any real respect beyond their fan base.
Remember when the trade to put CP3 with Kobe was vetoed by the commissioner? Now we have the warriors.
Say what you want but no one wants to be against Playoff Lebron. If JR Smith didn’t make that mistake last night and the Cavs won, this series would be totally different. Took the Warriors till OT to win at home with all the calls. Yeah, Lebron does flop but the way the Cavs played last night his playoff averages are off the charts.
Lebron is GOaT
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National Champion [7712]
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Bulls did not have that many good players.. Jordan enhanced
Jun 1, 2018, 1:27 PM
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those guys abilities but they weren't anything close to the Warriors as far as all star talent is concerned. What they had Pippen.... who else? What other all-stars were on that team? Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc, Jon Paxson? Rodman maybe could be considered great but he basically was a great role player..same with Grant being a good role player.
All this talk about Lebron's team being bad and its just him is false. I think in his mind he thinks its all about him but that makes his team quit. Watch the next game and tell me how many times its just "give the ball to bron and everybody get out of the way." Which is why they are flawed. Jordan made everyone around him play hard and made them better. Lebron doesn't do that, he tries to do it all himself.
You telling me Love isn't good? He was a perennial allstar before he came to Cleveland. George Hill has been good everywhere he's played, you think Paxson or Kerr were better than Kyle Korver? JR Smith should have a more important role on this team. TThompson can contribute if given a role. But no...its Lebron and everybody get out of the way. Similar to Kobe without Shaq and Iverson led teams. those teams won games but never materialized into much of anything.But those guys weren't team builders, they were me firsters.
This is the main reason why LEbron can never be considered greater than Jordan. Jordan played with mostly scrub role players except for one other dude. Lebron has had help in the past. Its just the Buffalo bills syndrome. They're playing against Golden State every year. Golden state has 4 all stars in their starting lineup... No team has had that luxury. Thats like putting Isaiah Thomas, MAgic, Bird, and Charles Barkley on the same team.
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Campus Hero [14067]
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George Hill and Kyle Korver are over the hill and pretty
Jun 1, 2018, 1:45 PM
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close to being washed. Korver is 37.
I think Lebron has had good teams around him in the 2011-2013 window in Miami and 2016-2017 in Cleveland. 2014 Miami squad was still pretty good, but Wade really began to decline that year and the key role players like Allen and Battier were 38 and 35. 2015 Cavs were all injured for the Finals. This 2018 squad is pretty much garbage outside of Love (who missed game 7 in Boston btw) and there's no way you are going to win me over by citing George Hill and Kyle Korver.
The Lebron and get out of the way argument is ridiculous too. It's incredibly efficient and leads to way better shots for those guys (like JR Smith) than they could ever get on their own. Lebron taking it to the basket results in fouls, high % shots for Lebron, and high % shots for team mates on kickouts. JR Smith going 1 on 1 is absolutely not what you want and who else on this Cavs team can take guys off the dribble and create anything? Nobody. Try a better argument please.
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National Champion [7712]
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but i'm comparing korver to paxson...who you got?
Jun 1, 2018, 5:04 PM
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the argument made was the Bulls were the same caliber skill as the warriors. Which i was pointing out was not true. The bulls had a lot of average dudes on that team but played great in their role b/c guys/leaders like Jordan knew how to manage his teammates. LEbron doesn't do that at all. This is why Kyrie is gone..tired of playing support cast instead of co-worker. If you remember all these coaches that have been through Cleveland early in Lebron's tenure all mentioned how Lebron ran his own thing. Which thats what he does on the floor now. It's his show and alot of the other guys don't seem very passive and uncomfortable with the ball yet didn't do that at previous teams.
george hill was a good player for the pacers and spurs..he wasn't all world but he should be putting in 15 a night. Love should be putting in 20/15rebs a night and JR should be doing around 12-15. I just don't think they're ever allowed to be apart of the game plan. Its only if Lebron gets in trouble will he share.
Dwayne Wade was scoring 30 a night before LEbron came and you saw his demeanor change b/c Lebron came in and just took over operations. Now they were good b/c of the star power but Wade never was the same nor was Bosh. It was 'you guys' stay in your lane and watch me. Ive never seen anyone play on Lebrons team and flourish or get better. Have you? They all regress.
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All-In [37023]
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I don't remember
Jun 1, 2018, 9:53 AM
[ in reply to Re: The difference is ] |
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Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Bill Lambier(Spelling), Larry Bird, James Worthy, Charles Oakley, and many many more being small non physical players.
My point is.....it was a different game then versus now. Today it is a scorers game and then it was about defense and physical basketball. What made Jordan amazing was that he could score through the physical play and it wasn't because he was on the foul line constantly.
Again I'm not saying he is not in the conversation I am saying it is hard to compare player from the 80's to players now when the game was completely different. I actually find it very difficult to watch or even pay attention to the NBA now where I watched it frequently in the 80's and 90's. To me basketball is not basketball anymore.
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Ring of Honor [23955]
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Lebron is 6-8 260 pounds. He would have been able to
Jun 1, 2018, 10:03 AM
[ in reply to The difference is ] |
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beat people up.
Rules changes 14 years ago allowed teams to incorporate more zone defensive principles which would have made it difficult for players like Jordan to clear out one side of the floor and isolate.
The game has changed, but the players are better. All 5 players have to be more skilled basketball players.
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Campus Hero [14067]
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I think that's a ridiculous assumption considering Lebron
Jun 1, 2018, 11:22 AM
[ in reply to The difference is ] |
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probably would've been the biggest and strongest player in the league back then. He actually gets hammered a lot and still makes shots. Yes he whines a lot to the officials, but don't let that fool you into thinking he can't take contact.
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All-In [37023]
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Hammered a lot today
Jun 1, 2018, 12:19 PM
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in a soft league does not equal what it used to.
I never said Lebron is not good or one of if not the best today. I said saying he is the best ever is a difficult task to do when the game is entirely different than it was when other equally as great or better players played.
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Orange Beast [6476]
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Jun 1, 2018, 9:43 AM
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You are wrong
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Campus Hero [14067]
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So in your opinion Bill Russell is the greatest ever?***
Jun 1, 2018, 11:23 AM
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Top TigerNet [30170]
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hey cocktroll - its mj. and IT IS NOT debatable***
Jun 1, 2018, 12:13 PM
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Legend [6784]
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Re: hey cocktroll - its mj. and IT IS NOT debatable***
Jun 1, 2018, 12:33 PM
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It is very debatable seeing that it is all opinion.
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Top TigerNet [30170]
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Re: hey cocktroll - its mj. and IT IS NOT debatable***
Jun 1, 2018, 12:49 PM
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its fact - and IT IS NOT debatable
the end
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Legend [6784]
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Re: hey cocktroll - its mj. and IT IS NOT debatable***
Jun 1, 2018, 4:25 PM
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It is not a fact at all. Many other players could be argued as the GOAT. I believe it is between Lebron and MJ in my opinion. You can debate that Lebron is better and you can debate that MJ is better.
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All-In [48078]
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GOAT Team
Jun 1, 2018, 1:32 PM
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Ring of Honor [23186]
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Re: Lebron = GOAT
Jun 1, 2018, 1:57 PM
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Only player in NBA history to score or assist on 70 points in a Finals game and lose. 2nd time he has done that now, both times against the Warriors.
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Varsity [100]
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This is BIG
Jun 1, 2018, 4:28 PM
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Lebron has to be everything.
He has to assist on all non scoring plays, which rarely convert btw.
He has to score on scoring plays to win.
He has to rebound on misses.
He has to defend on shots.
He is the best "all around player" to ever play.
I do not see MJ, Kobe, KD, Curry, Shaq, etc etc having to play all those positions. They get to lay back and play their one spot...while Lebron has to do it all.
Again, let him and KD switch places...Warriors would have beat KD's cavs by 50+.
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All-Pro [663]
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Re: Lebron = GOAT
Jun 1, 2018, 3:23 PM
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To me what settles the Lebron/MJ debate is that I derive no joy from watching Lebron. I have no sense of great anticipation when he plays and I make no effort to watch him during the regular season. He's great no doubt, but just not that interesting.
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Legend [6784]
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Re: Lebron = GOAT
Jun 1, 2018, 4:27 PM
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How do you not have joy in watching greatness?
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Aficionado [172]
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Re: Lebron = GOAT
Jun 1, 2018, 4:07 PM
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People who want to romanticize the 90s NBA are ignorant. The league became watered down because of expansion during Jordan’s years.
He was great, but LeBron has proven he’s the GOAT. If you went into a lab to create the ultimate basketball player, he’s what you would get.
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All-Conference [447]
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Re: Lebron = Jerry West
Jun 1, 2018, 5:02 PM
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And GS = Boston Celtics. And he doesn't have a Wilt to save him... I'm no Jordan fan but he had something that Lebron will never have. Lebron is a great player in the current NBA but he is no GOAT.
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