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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Military bases named after traitors
Dec 23, 2020, 4:15 PM
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Why is Trump opposed to finally fix this?
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Orange Beast [6307]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 23, 2020, 4:25 PM
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Ft. Bragg = The North Carolina Fort
Ft. Jackson = The South Carolina Fort
Fast forward 10 years. Whoops, we named these forts after traitor states and MUST change them.
The South Carolina Fort = The Jesse Jackson Fort
The North Carolina Fort = The Fayetteville Fort
Fast forward 10 years. Whoops. Fayetteville is named after Marquis de Lafayette who said something about slaves in 1805. Must change the the name again.
...
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TigerNet Grandmaster [197047]
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745 bil to rename?***
Dec 23, 2020, 4:27 PM
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Clemson Sports Icon [58113]
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The names are written in really big letters.***
Dec 23, 2020, 4:57 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: 745 bil to rename?***
Dec 23, 2020, 7:11 PM
[ in reply to 745 bil to rename?*** ] |
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Costs zero to rename.
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TigerNet Grandmaster [197047]
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Rename it in your brain.***
Dec 23, 2020, 7:56 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Rename it in your brain.***
Dec 26, 2020, 1:17 PM
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What moron? If you're dumb enough to think it costs a fortune to rename, you're too stupid to breath. Stay in you lane moron.
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All-In [10883]
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Re: 745 bil to rename?***
Dec 24, 2020, 3:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: 745 bil to rename?*** ] |
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A concession is a price you’ll keep paying when it comes to “cost.” Just depends on when and where you draw the line.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: 745 bil to rename?***
Dec 26, 2020, 1:20 PM
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I like the classic names. I don't think it matters. Leave as them as they were. I am cool with that. People are way too soft. That said, it doesn't cost anything substantial to change the names. I say leave as they were. Who cares? It's meaningless. Why peeps so weak and offended so easily.
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Gridiron Giant [15311]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 23, 2020, 4:30 PM
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I am not opposed to renaming the bases. I am glad, as a native of the South, that the Confederacy lost the War Between the States. However, were you a Southern adult during that conflict and were white, it is more likely than not that you would have fought for your state. The term traitor, while technically accurate, impugns the motives of the people of a different time. Most of those men were no more evil than the average German soldier(not SS) during WWII.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 23, 2020, 4:42 PM
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Thank you!! That is a fair assessment. I had 3 relatives fight for NC. They fought to defend their homes and state against an invading army. Of my 3 relatives, 1 was killed, 1 wounded badly , and 1 unharmed. They had no slaves. They were dirt poor farmers. To label them and others as anything but brave and answering the call to duty is the height of ignorance.
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Paw Warrior [4750]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 23, 2020, 7:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Military bases named after traitors ] |
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Yeah, the traitor label is a bit much.
I have often wondered how northern high school teachers teach the Civil War as opposed to how I taught it in SC. It would be interesting to sit in one of those class rooms and observe.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 24, 2020, 7:48 AM
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Now that is a great idea. I would love to do that.
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Orange Immortal [62164]
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This is the difficult truth for people in 2020 to get their
Dec 23, 2020, 7:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: Military bases named after traitors ] |
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heads around. People who fought for the confederacy were not necessarily evil.
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Paw Master [16127]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 23, 2020, 4:45 PM
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Including Clemson in your list of things named after traitors? GTFOOH.
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TigerNet Grandmaster [197047]
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Why are they renaming Grady High School but not...
Dec 23, 2020, 4:48 PM
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Grady Hospital? What will we call Shady Grady?
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Orange Immortal [65280]
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Here to help if needed
Dec 24, 2020, 9:05 PM
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Grady is on standby.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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National Champion [8072]
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Sets a bad precedent for anything named Trump.***
Dec 23, 2020, 4:51 PM
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TigerNet Grandmaster [197047]
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There's nothing public named Trump.***
Dec 23, 2020, 4:58 PM
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National Champion [8072]
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Yet.***
Dec 23, 2020, 8:18 PM
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TigerNet Grandmaster [197047]
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tick tock?***
Dec 23, 2020, 8:22 PM
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National Champion [8072]
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Some sycophant like Gaetz is bound to try.***
Dec 23, 2020, 9:07 PM
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TigerNet Grandmaster [197047]
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The name of something has never hurt a soul.***
Dec 23, 2020, 4:52 PM
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Tiger Titan [50675]
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calhouns honor college sure did***
Dec 24, 2020, 5:28 PM
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Top TigerNet [29042]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 24, 2020, 2:26 AM
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Kind of like that traitor Thomas G. Clemson.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 24, 2020, 8:30 AM
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Should we name a military base after him?
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 24, 2020, 6:12 AM
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Because Trump's supporters are traitors.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 24, 2020, 11:07 AM
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I thought we were idiots, dumb, morons, immoral, lacking character? Dang I can’t keep up. Lol.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 24, 2020, 2:56 PM
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Yep. And? You are all of that...and?
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Tiger Titan [50675]
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drunk already***
Dec 24, 2020, 5:29 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: drunk already***
Dec 24, 2020, 5:34 PM
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Nah...Just being real. How about yourself?
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Tiger Titan [50675]
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hadn't drank in years
Dec 24, 2020, 8:26 PM
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might have been a mistake
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 24, 2020, 7:47 AM
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This is the picture of dead US soldiers at Gettysburg. Who killed them? I thought it was conservatives who preach that we must support our troops. Explain why we should name our military bases (places we train our US soldiers) after men who were responsible for over 300,000 of their deaths? Lemme guess, hatred towards our troops is a leftist thing unless you are carrying a confederate battle flag and are murdering them for the right to keep black people in chains. Amitrite?
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Gridiron Giant [15311]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 24, 2020, 9:54 AM
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No you are wrong. Again, I'm ok with renaming the bases. It was best that the Union was preserved, but in 2020 to label men who fought for the South as traitors is over the top. At the time of the War Between the States, people had a far greater allegiance to their state than to the USA. Lee himself said ,"If Virginia stands by the old Union, so will I. But if she secedes, then I will follow my native State with my sword, and if need be, with my life." Lincoln himself was obviously more interested in keeping the Union intact than in freeing the slaves. He issued the Emancipation Proclamation in September 1862, but it did not go into effect until January 1, 1863.It did not apply to the slaves in the border states. It did not apply to all of VA.It did not apply to New Orleans and 13 parishes of LA which alone did not emancipate 300K additional slaves. I would be careful whose names you would want to replace the Confederate generals with.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 24, 2020, 12:52 PM
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Taking up arms and murdering United States soldiers is indeed an act of treason. I get what you're trying to say, but the confederates were indeed traitors to the American Flag and the Constitution.
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Gridiron Giant [15311]
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It's not black and white.
Dec 24, 2020, 3:25 PM
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So the Confederate troops who mostly fought on their home soil were murderers in what I think almost everyone would say was a fair fight? There was never any intention to take over the United States and replace the Constitution or change the flag flown in the Union states, much less depose Lincoln. It was a war of separatism. Again, I am very glad this turned out to be a losing cause, however, I think your characterization of my ancestors as traitors and murderers is much too harsh when not viewed through the lens of the 1860's and the loyalty to state over nation. By your logic, could not current day British citizens view "American patriots" of the 1770's as traitors and murderers?
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: It's not black and white.
Dec 24, 2020, 4:01 PM
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Again, I understand what you are saying. However, taking up arms and killing United States soldiers is an act of treason. On December 25, 1868, Johnson declared "unconditionally, and without reservation, ... a full pardon and amnesty for the offence of treason against the United States, or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws ..."
Why would someone need a pardon for the offence of treason if they were not traitors to the American flag and the constitution?
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Clemson Icon [26664]
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How many different treaties have been broken by the US...?***
Dec 27, 2020, 12:50 AM
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98436]
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The traitors were those who crushed states rights.
Dec 24, 2020, 11:50 AM
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That's why our federal government has been allowed to expand to a ridiculous size and scope.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: The traitors were those who crushed states rights.
Dec 24, 2020, 2:07 PM
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That’s true. I also wonder if ole Birminghamwould have sat idle in the 1860s while an invading army burned homes and killed his neighbors. How dishonorable would it have been to try to stop that. Some people think that every snot nosed southern kid took up arms so some rich plantation owners could keep his slaves. That kind of ignorance is astounding to me.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: The traitors were those who crushed states rights.
Dec 24, 2020, 4:03 PM
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Amazing how we have drifted from why our current POTUS is against renaming military bases for men who killed US soldiers so they could keep the right to keep black people chained up.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: The traitors were those who crushed states rights.
Dec 24, 2020, 4:07 PM
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You really think that’s why most dirt poor southern boys fought don’t you? Amazing.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: The traitors were those who crushed states rights.
Dec 24, 2020, 5:14 PM
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I don't disagree with that. Wanna get back to the OP as to why our POTUS is against changing the names of military bases that were named after Generals who led those dirt poor southern boys to kill US soldiers? Amazing
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98436]
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They were honored men who fought for freedom from..
Dec 24, 2020, 5:40 PM
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a central government which had overstepped its constitutional authority. The union was based on getting states to accept a central governing body. The constitution was written so that all state governed themselves. The constitution provided for states' rights. Had the north been so dead set against slavery why were states being given statehood in pairs? Have you never considered that the Missouri Compromise was just such a deal? It was about power, no one in those days gave a rat'stwat about backs or slavery.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: They were honored men who fought for freedom from..
Dec 24, 2020, 10:32 PM
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The Civil War was over slavery. They said so themselves in the Declarations of Causes that were written by the seceding states. Sorry about those inconvenient facts.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98436]
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Find me an army of white yankees who would die to free...
Dec 24, 2020, 5:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: The traitors were those who crushed states rights. ] |
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blacks and we'll discuss this subject further. If the US wanted to free slaves we'd be invading China. As you ponder the thought of whites living in the civil war era dying to free blacks tell me why we are serving china today.
What you've been taught if revisionist history, son. Honest Abe didn't sign the emancipation proclamation until the civil war was three years old. He said if continuing in slavers would save the union he would continue slavery and if ending slavery would preserve the union he would end slavery.
I doubt you've ever known any of that and I doubt you have enough respect for truth to do a little research to face the truth.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: Find me an army of white yankees who would die to free...
Dec 24, 2020, 5:34 PM
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Yes or No. Was the Civil war over the "North's hostility to the institution of African Slavery?"
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98436]
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No, it was not.
Dec 24, 2020, 5:43 PM
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That's a revisionist lie. Look up the sentence and see if Abe said it or if I'm lying to you.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: No, it was not.
Dec 24, 2020, 5:54 PM
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2nd request Yes or No. Was the Civil war over the "North's hostility to the institution of African Slavery?"
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98436]
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I already told you it wasn't.
Dec 26, 2020, 11:58 AM
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The signing of the emancipation proclamation three years into the war should have been your first clue. Second, I submit this:
In August, 1862 Lincoln wrote a letter to Horace Greeley, an editor of the New York Tribune, who published an open letter insisting President Lincoln free the slaves immediately. In Lincoln's reply he wrote...
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also so that"
Now allow the ignorance to die.
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CU Guru [1878]
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Re: No, it was not.
Dec 28, 2020, 1:17 AM
[ in reply to No, it was not. ] |
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Racists love the "it wasn't about slavery, I was about states rights!!"
Yeah, states rights to own slaves ya racist bigot.
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Tiger Titan [46471]
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And find me a Southern state government back then...
Dec 26, 2020, 9:56 AM
[ in reply to Find me an army of white yankees who would die to free... ] |
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That didn't secede for slavery.
Y'all can beat around the bush all you want with who wanted what up north--that's fine. Sure, most Northerners didn't give a #### about slavery.
But do not pretend the South didn't secede to preserve slavery. Texas themselves said in their letter that they were preserving the idea that white people were superior.
I know some of y'all would eagerly champion that if you were alive back then...
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98436]
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I'm happy today.
Dec 26, 2020, 11:59 AM
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It's been a week since anyone called me a racist.
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Tiger Titan [46471]
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Well, maybe you can clear the air
Nov 4, 2021, 8:48 AM
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If 88 lived in 1861 and SC seceded while citing slavery as the primary cause in its letter, would you join up for the cause?
If you owned a plantation, would you have slaves? Would you fight to preserve that right?
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Tiger Titan [46471]
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"States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 9:53 AM
[ in reply to The traitors were those who crushed states rights. ] |
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In other words, what they felt was their state right to own slaves.
Don't make me post their letters of secession.
There are other minor reasons why the South seceded, but slavery was the primary one. Period.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 10:14 AM
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The idea that drives some of us nuts is that every poor southern kid , or every poor northern kid fought on battle fields over slavery. Governments, the elite in political power and wealth start wars and of course slavery was an issue for them. But to label my dirt farming ancestors as evil traitors because they fought for the grey is just stupid and naive. If people could just consider history through the eyes of common sense it would go a long way.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:11 AM
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Then it should really upset you that we honor the very men who brainwashed your ancestors and convinced them to take up arms against the American flag and Constitution with statues, Memorials, and the naming of military bases.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:16 AM
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No further comment to you.
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Game Changer [1631]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:18 AM
[ in reply to Re: "States rights" ] |
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this is ridiculous!
I've studied up A LOT on the civil war, and have a pretty god grasp on why and what for. Some of you are just making excuses as to why a 'southern white kid" would take arms against the US governments. And thats exactly what it is. Of course not every white had slaves, but they were indeed traitors if they fought for the confederacy. For whatever reason you can come up with it boils down to the same thing, it was treason then it's treason now.
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Orange Blooded [2203]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: "States rights" ] |
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I have to agree with you on that one. Most of the men and boys that died in the civil war did not own slaves as to that point many free blacks owned slaves too. You cannot paint those dead soldiers with a wide brush. The civil war was over power and money like most wars.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:26 AM
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Thank you sir !! Unlike you , many posters on this forum are not capable of applying common sense to history. They sit in judgement over 150 years later and believe they have taken some moral high ground. It’s such a shallow mindset.
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Game Changer [1631]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:33 AM
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history itself is the judge....perhaps if the South hadda won they coulda put their own spin on history.
I'll say it again. Any US citizen that takes up arms against the US Government= traitor. Facts be Facts
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Orange Blooded [2203]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:42 AM
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If we are talking facts then Lee could have went around Gettysburg and marched straight into Washington but he chose not to do that.
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Game Changer [1631]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:51 AM
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perhaps he coulda. But thats not a fact. lemme clue you into what a real fact is
the Southern traitors lost the war - FACT
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Orange Blooded [2203]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 12:02 PM
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Yes the southern states lost the war. They had no industries like the northern states. The Southern state had agriculture. It should have not even been close. The fact that Lee decided to stand and fight @ Gettysburg and not march into Washington has puzzled military mind every since. I am sure if he saw what was going on today then he would have marched into Washington. I am wondering how many of the people calling for name changes today had family living in the USA during the civil war. I had relatives fight on both sides.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 12:11 PM
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We don't choose our ancestors. My family is of German-Italian decent. I'm sure I have ancestors that goose stepped with the Nazi's and Fascists. It is what it is.
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Orange Blooded [2203]
TigerPulse: 84%
32
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 12:15 PM
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I don't think you would have a say in it then. I had relatives fight and die on both sides. The same thing in the revolutionary war. We should keep our history so it does not happen again. This is part of what the USA is today and don't forget our history.
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Game Changer [1631]
TigerPulse: 86%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 12:56 PM
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I also had relatives fight on both sides. The ones that fought on the southern side were indeed committing an act of treason. I’m sure if I could talk to them now they’d have their reasons, BUT treason for any reasons is still treason. I get why some on here want to soften the facts while looking g back at ancestors. AND as I said before, if the South woulda won history might be written differently.
This war is clear what it was about. Let’s not confuse the issue. And yes the names of bases should be changed.
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Orange Blooded [2203]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 1:13 PM
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No they should not. It part of our history. They only people that want them changed are not from the south. I really don't care one way or the other but why stop @ military bases ? Just change all the names in the south they are all traitors. Change all the cities names and everything.
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Game Changer [1631]
TigerPulse: 86%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 1:54 PM
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The old slipper slope argument.
Personally I don’t have a problem one way or another. If asked should they or shouldn’t they, I check yes they should be changed every time, for the reasons given. I am native SC, born and raised (but moved away) my relatives there agree with this so don’t make it out to be Yankees imposing their values on the south again.
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Orange Blooded [2203]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:39 AM
[ in reply to Re: "States rights" ] |
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I would suppose most of the people want to change the names would also be in favor of changing Clemson's name too.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:41 AM
[ in reply to Re: "States rights" ] |
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Sorry, but I will consider it the "moral high ground" to condemn those who were willing to kill US soldiers in order to preserve slavery. I'm sure this man agrees.
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Orange Blooded [2203]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:43 AM
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You think he wants to change Clemson's name too?
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:49 AM
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Their's a military base named Clemson?
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Orange Blooded [2203]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:55 AM
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Why stop @ Military bases?
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:58 AM
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Military bases are used to train our US soldiers. You don't find it disturbing that we name some of them after men who were responsible for the murder of over 300,000 US troops?
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Orange Blooded [2203]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 12:16 PM
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No I don't all the battles were fought on southern soil but not Gettysburg. It was not like the south invaded the north it was the other way around.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 12:54 PM
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Do you support the American Flag and our Constitution?
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Orange Blooded [2203]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 1:18 PM
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I hope I do. My relative fought and died for it. The names you want changed were part of the US military before the civil war and after 5 yrs of northern aggression they were still US citizens. Get over it. Maybe we should change the name of Grant field. In other words shut up and move forward. Get over yourself. Don't try to change our history.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 6:21 PM
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It's amusing to find Trumpkins who want to pretend that they fully support our troops and our constitution, yet want to protect the people and symbols of an insurrection against our troops and Constitution. Oh, and also they're undying fealty to a draft dodger as a Commander in
Chief who has insulted former POW's who actually had the balls to serve a conflict that he chickened our of.
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Top TigerNet [29042]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
Posts: 15127
Joined: 2014
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 27, 2020, 10:31 AM
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While we're at it we should rename the political party that was the slave holding party. Communist would be fitting at this point.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 11:32 AM
[ in reply to Re: "States rights" ] |
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It was over slavery. Read the Declarations of Causes that were submitted by the seceding states. You could also read Stephens cornerstone speech where says that the dispute of slavery was the cornerstone for the slaveholding states secession.
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Tiger Titan [46471]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Posts: 41891
Joined: 1998
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 3:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: "States rights" ] |
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Nope, they definitely didn't. Naive young people being used by those in power for their cause to fight wars has been going on for some time, including the Civil War.
I had Southern soldiers on my side of the family, too, and I don't see them as dirty traitors either. But there's also no need to glamorize the Confederacy or name bases after its generals. It was a rebellion, decisively opposed to America, and it shouldn't cheered by our federal government. It's history. That's it.
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Gridiron Giant [15311]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 7:16 PM
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Yes Catahoula! Legally the men who fought for the South were traitors as the Union prevailed. The winners always control the historical narrative. Soldiers almost universally fight for their native land. During the 1860's, there was more allegiance to one's state than to the nation, hence Southerners fought for the South and Northerners fought for the North. Again Birmingham you are technically correct that the Confederates were traitors. However, you are harsher towards these men than the leniency shown by the North. After World War II, various Germans were tried and executed for their war crimes. Yet, following the Civil War, not one Confederate including the generals was charged with treason. I don't think these men were felt to be murderers anymore than the Yankee troops were. Men in war kill each other because they have to. I don't think you'll find many soldiers in any war who stay and fight and die for a cause or a flag. Men don't flee from conflict, because they stay, fight and die for their brothers in arms. The Southern men who died and killed men from the North, I think were as a whole noble men, honorable men, who were fighting an ignoble cause. If you are honest, I think you would have to concede that if you-yourself had been of fighting age during the Civi War and were raised in the South you would have gone to war as a Confederate provided you were white. You would have been a murderous traitor I suppose? We celebrate every July 4th our decision to break away from Great Britain. We consider the men who fought the Crown as great patriots. Had the British won, these men that we venerate would have been considered traitors and murderers. War is always complicated.
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Orange Blooded [2203]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 8:59 PM
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I agree but the base names were from the military. I think some of the confederates were thought of as USA citizens after the civil war and had some great military minds. I know they still study Lee battle plans @ West point. The naming of military bases in my opinion was about how they led men not some idiotic point of view by many in here.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 26, 2020, 10:23 PM
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The United States naming bases after confederates would be like the gamecocks building a new football facility and naming it after Dabo.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 27, 2020, 12:16 PM
[ in reply to Re: "States rights" ] |
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They were not charged with treason because Andrew Johnson pardoned them for all crimes of treason. Fact.
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Top TigerNet [29042]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
Posts: 15127
Joined: 2014
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 27, 2020, 2:14 PM
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I didn't realize the Confederate navy had a battle with the current United States. That's what those flags would indicate
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Orange Blooded [2108]
TigerPulse: 95%
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Re: "States rights"
Dec 28, 2020, 8:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: "States rights" ] |
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The Founders believed in the right to secede, which is why secession is not prohibited by the Constitution-Lincoln lied by saying the Union was older than the states-Lincoln lied about reinforcing Ft. Sumter and when it was attacked, Lincoln said his actions had the desired effect-Vast majority of Confederate soldiers owned no slaves and vast majority of northernets were fighting for "union" Not against slavery-If the South has wanted to keep slaves, all they had to do was stay in the Union bbecause Lincoln and the Congress supported the congressional statement that the war was NOT about slavery=Lincoln then embarked on a campaign against the Constitution by locking up his political opponents with out trial, closing down newspapers and arresting editors. waging war against innocent civilians-black and white-allowed slavery to continue in at least 4 states in the US during the war-Lincoln and then Grnat embarked on a campaign to wipe out Native Americans-Maybe Yale University and Boston's Faneil Hall should be renamed, considering they were slave traders. Let;s also tear sown the Jefferson memorial since Jefferson owned slaves and had a child with one-Washington's family owned slaves so the monument must go! Read details of history instead of the just the winner's version.
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CU Guru [1878]
TigerPulse: 90%
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CU Medallion [18981]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2009
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The irony is certainly not lost that most of the 'states
Dec 28, 2020, 9:53 AM
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rights' proponents on here now are the same that were all giddy about the Texas lawsuit trying to force other states' hands on running their elections in an effort to overturn the recent election. Like truth, national debt, science and reason, first amendment rights - it boils down to matters of convenience over principle. Does it benefit my viewpoint? States Rights! Does it threaten my viewpoint? States should conform! It has shown itself to be just that simple.
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Oculus Spirit [40939]
TigerPulse: 100%
57
Posts: 23747
Joined: 2012
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Of all of the wrongs in our country
Dec 27, 2020, 6:31 AM
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At any given time, this is the one to argue over?
Does this mean you are cool with:
Opioids
Homelessness
Cancer
Tax evasion
Child/sex trafficking
Or Any of the other issues that Trump or any other president would be tackling after they renamed all of the military bases?
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Gridiron Giant [15311]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Of all of the wrongs in our country
Dec 27, 2020, 8:28 AM
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Very good point. I seriously doubt very few people could even list the names of 5 military bases much less know that 10 of them were named after generals from the South. While I am ambivalent towards the move to rename the bases, I don't think this will appreciably advance the cause of decreasing racism. It's really irrelevant though. On Dec 8th, the House approved the revised bill 335-78 and the Senate approved 84-13 on Dec 11th. Trump vetoed the bill on Dec 23rd and his veto will surely be overridden.Bot Congress and the President are wasting time in my view on symbolic measures. However, now that this is essentially a done deal, I agree with the suggestion that the bases be renamed after Medal of Honor recipients. Instead of dealing with the major problems we have, our leaders can
now spend their time making absolutely sure that the bases are named after the requisite number of blacks, Native Americans, Hispanics, etc.At least one chore will be easy. There is only one woman who has received the CMH. We are frying minnows.
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Valley Protector [1427]
TigerPulse: 91%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 27, 2020, 1:28 PM
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Why don't you ask him? Nobody on here can speak for President Donald J. Trump. Should it not be considered an act of treason to sell out your country to the Chinese Communist Party? Many on both sides of the aisle should probably be put on trial by the real patriots in this country. This seems to be a much more relevant issue for today. By the way, many of the great military leaders of this country are descendants of the Confederate Army soldiers, including General Patton. Renaming military bases will just lead to more division and resentment and we have plenty of that.
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Starter [375]
TigerPulse: 71%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 27, 2020, 10:25 PM
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General Patton fought for the United States of America.
His condeferate ancestors (if he has some) fought against the United States of America.
Whose name do you care about?
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Starter [375]
TigerPulse: 71%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 27, 2020, 10:22 PM
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Birmingham Tiger is 100% correct. Confederate leaders did teh following:
1. created their own constitution
2. created their own flag
3. created their own currency
4. killed American soldiers
With that said, a US citizen should be able to fly the confederate flag on their personal property. Put it in your fronty yard, knock yourself out. Feel free to wear confederate t-shirts and use bumper stickers.
But there should be no debate about any confederate symbols, names, images, etc. on any government property, either federal, state, county, muni, etc.
I would love to hear justification for any US government entity funding or supporting the use of a confederate name.
For me, the confederacy is not an issue of racism. It is an issue of a formal entity fighting against the United States of America.
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CU Guru [1878]
TigerPulse: 90%
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It would anger his racist base if the names changed?
Dec 28, 2020, 1:12 AM
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Not hard to figure out, here.
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Starter [375]
TigerPulse: 71%
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Re: It would anger his racist base if the names changed?
Dec 28, 2020, 11:37 AM
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I understand that logic, but those racists are red white and blue flag waiving Americans, correct? Shouldn't they support Americans and our flag and our constitution? Oh no, now I get it, I see a different flag waiving from the back of their truck. Nevermind. Now I understand.
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Redshirt [98]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 8:25 AM
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Tiger8888 is right on target.
There is no reason to support or honor an organization it was 100% un American.
I don’t think you can get more un-American then the confederacy.
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Starter [375]
TigerPulse: 71%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 11:34 AM
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Any of you trumpers wanna tell me why the US government should support / honor an entity that:
1. abandoned the US constitution and created their own constitution
2. abandoned the US flag and created their own flag
3. abandoned US currency and created their own currency
4. killed American soldiers
I recognize there were individual citizens in the south that felt they had no choice but to go to war and fight for the confederacy. And that's a tough debate. But the issue of renaming military bases revolves around ....... should we honor the condeferate leaders that started and lead this effort against the united states of america.
Don't tell me I don't know the history. I do. None of the civil war history justifies the four items above.
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Redshirt [98]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 1:21 PM
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Any trumpers, confederates or other un American nutcases wanna provide an argument to Tiger8888?
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 2:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Military bases named after traitors ] |
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It's tough to think of anything more un-American than what you listed. I'll wait for the Trumpkins to give a response.
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Redshirt [98]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 3:47 PM
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Crickets .........
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Starter [375]
TigerPulse: 71%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 7:50 PM
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1. abandoned the US constitution and created their own constitution
2. abandoned the US flag and created their own flag
3. abandoned US currency and created their own currency
4. killed American soldiers
Think about that.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 8:18 PM
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Took up arms to defend their homes and families against an invading army. Think about that.
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Redshirt [98]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 8:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: Military bases named after traitors ] |
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For me it’s not about racism, it’s not about politically correct names, but instead it’s about the confederacy being inherently anti American. And I think “anti American” is a bit of an understatement.
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Gridiron Giant [15311]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 9:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Military bases named after traitors ] |
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1. abandoned the US constitution and created their own constitution
2. abandoned the US flag and created their own flag
3. abandoned US currency and created their own currency
4. killed American soldiers
Think about that.
Again, I really don’t care whether the bases are renamed or not. It was not a hot burner issue until George Floyd’s death. I’m not sure how this symbolic act addresses police brutality or racism? The bases are going to be renamed. I’ll sleep fine. However, where does it all end? Every slave that disembarked from the horrors of a slave ship first gazed on the Stars and Stripes flying high in our port cities. The Native Americans were displaced and slaughtered with Old Glory flapping in the breeze. So when we eliminate the pesky history of bases named after Confederate generals, what’s next? Should the current US flag be jettisoned? I would certainly hope not!
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 9:13 PM
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I get it. It's ok for white Americans for display the Confederate flag and still be considered patriots. But black football players who kneel for the National Anthem need to be run out of the country. Trumpism 101.
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Oculus Spirit [40939]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2012
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How is this thread still going?***
Dec 28, 2020, 9:16 PM
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Gridiron Giant [15311]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 9:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: Military bases named after traitors ] |
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I get it. It's ok for white Americans for display the Confederate flag and still be considered patriots. But black football players who kneel for the National Anthem need to be run out of the country. Trumpism 101.
No. That’s not my point at all.
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Orange Blooded [2203]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 28, 2020, 9:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: Military bases named after traitors ] |
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I don't think they are playing the confederate national Anthem @ those football games. If you don't like this country then feel free to leave. I know people that left when Trump got elected to bad others did not follow suite after saying they would. I respect the few people I know that left they stood by their word no matter how crazy it was.
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Paw Warrior [4752]
TigerPulse: 74%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 6:47 AM
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Donald Trump has said that football players who kneel during the National Anthem are being disrespectful to our troops. He says those SOB's should be fired and should leave. But why is it not disrespectful to our troops for white Americans to honor men and display symbols of an American insurrection that killed over 300,000 of these same troops? Please explain.
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Gridiron Giant [15311]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 9:17 AM
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Donald Trump has said that football players who kneel during the National Anthem are being disrespectful to our troops. He says those SOB's should be fired and should leave. But why is it not disrespectful to our troops for white Americans to honor men and display symbols of an American insurrection that killed over 300,000 of these same troops? Please explain.
Who knows what's in Trump's mind? I'm not sure why a native of NY is hung up on changing the names of these bases. His opposition for whatever reason will be overridden by Congress.I will take the players at face value that they intend no disrespect to the troops.I do not think they should leave the country.It's up to the owners whether or not to fire them. I personally would not.
I can understand why a black person could be offended by someone displaying the Confederate flag. I seriously doubt a Northern white soldier is hurt over the same display.I don't feel the need to own or display a Confederate flag, but believe in the freedom of others to do so, even if others find it offensive. I believe in the players having the right to kneel during the anthem. While others may not find that offensive, I personally do. I no longer watch the NFL.
My point is, you have called the men who fought and died for the Confederacy, murderers and traitors. The term traitor is technically accurate, but overly harsh in my opinion. Referring to these men as murderers is not accurate in my view. I don't view the average British, Mexican,Native American, German, Japanese,Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cuban, Panamanian or Iraqi soldier who killed American troops as a murderer. They had no choice in their birth origin, nor little choice in whether to fight or not.
The same is true for most of the Confederate soldiers. There was near total conscription of these men. My allegiance in 2020 is primarily to the USA and then SC. In 1861, that would not have been my view.Lee would have fought for the Union if VA had not seceded, an action he did not favor. It was a different time. You judge the actions of the men of the South through the prism of 2020.
I can't answer why Trump wants to fall on his sword over this issue. However, with all the real problems that exist in the country, I think our legislators would have higher priority issues to focus on.
However, this is not the end. Many of our forefathers owned slaves. Some owned several hundred. I will not be ok with cancelling Washington, Jefferson and the other 10 US Presidents who owned slaves. Grant himself oversaw his father-in-law's slaves and owned a slave before freeing that individual in 1859. In 2020, slavery is correctly viewed as an abomination. It has always been an abomination, but it's not fair in my opinion to judge others from our current day perch.
I also think we should judge someone on the totality of their life. I think Dr Martin Luther King is a hero. I think he was very brave. I think he accomplished an incredible amount in such a short life. I think he deserves the recognition of being honored with a national holiday. However, he was a serial adulterer despite being a Baptist minister. History is complicated. Viewing the actions of the Southern men of the 1860's as traitors and murderers is just simplistic in my opinion. I respect your opinion. I just disagree.
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Redshirt [98]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 7:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: Military bases named after traitors ] |
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Wow, by your logic the Confederates that didn’t like this country should’ve left.
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Starter [375]
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 8:08 AM
[ in reply to Re: Military bases named after traitors ] |
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The items below are not "pesky" to me and most Americans.
1. abandoned the US constitution and created their own constitution
2. abandoned the US flag and created their own flag
3. abandoned US currency and created their own currency
4. killed American soldiers
Do you support the leaders of these acts?
It has been an issue and will remian an issue until the US gov refrains from honoring the names of leaders that fought against America. Period.
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Redshirt [98]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 7:26 AM
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I believe it’s impossible to honor both flags. We will never know, but I would guess that any soldier that participated in the Civil War would agree with the belief that you cannot honor both flags.
I pity the fools that I see driving around with both flags flying from the back of their truck. This is the definition of ignorance.
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Starter [375]
TigerPulse: 71%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 8:27 AM
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Fluffhead wonders how this thread is still going.
The issue has been out there for 150 years and will continue until the US government refrains from honoring folks that lead the effort to:
1. abandoned the US constitution and created their own constitution
2. abandoned the US flag and created their own flag
3. abandoned US currency and created their own currency
4. killed American soldiers
Again, any US citizen is allowed to honor their ancesttors that fought in the civil war. Honor the individual soldier. No one can stop a US citizen from honoring another individual. Knock yourself out. Put a memorial in your front yard. Fly the confederate flag in your yard if you want. It's your personal property, go for it.
However, there is simply no reason the US government should honor the leaders of the leaders of the confederacy. I'm open to hearing a valid reason, but I havent heard one in this thread and havent heard one in the past 55 years.
So, the issue will keep "going" until the US gov stops honoring the anti american confederacy.
The reality is the majority of Americans want to remove names and synbols that honor the confederacy. Once our orange reality tv star is gone (he will be) sensible and honorable Americans (GOP and Dem) will re-name the bases and remove other confederate symbols and names.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 8:34 AM
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Yep that orange tv reality star that you speak of has been holding up the progress you desire for the past 150 years.
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Starter [375]
TigerPulse: 71%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 9:41 AM
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your comment doesn’t make any sense.
trump is not the issue, as an aside, he is quickly becoming irrelevant, he will prove to be a bug on the windshield of the presidency.
allow me to redirect your attention to the topic, ......... what do YOU think about having US military bases named after folks that lead an effort to fight against America?
I cant wait to hear your logic.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 10:04 AM
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I’ve answered the question many times but here goes again. Some of the greatest generals in our history fought for the south. Many of them were instrumental in facilitating peace after the war. The war was not as simple as people think. Honoring some of them requires an understanding of the times, the complexity of the situation in that day and a heck of a gesture towards brotherhood and healing.
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Starter [375]
TigerPulse: 71%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 10:42 AM
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You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I admire your liberal compassion, but you are asking the US gov and millions of American citizens to have a very subjective compassionate "understanding of the times" and "the complexity of the situation" and deploy a "heck of a gesture" towards people that led an effort to fight the United States of America by carrying out the following:
1. abandoned the US constitution and created their own constitution
2. abandoned the US flag and created their own flag
3. abandoned US currency and created their own currency
4. killed American soldiers
I’m not on board with that. Period. I love America.
Again, if one wants to have this compassionate understanding, then great, do so on your own property. Why would the US gov be involved in honoring such people?
Next time a group carries out some of the above actions against America, should we “understand the times" and "the complexity of the situation”. Should we name a building after them? Treat them with kid gloves? Give them a participation trophy? How liberal are you?
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Redshirt [98]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 12:15 PM
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Ouch!
Tardog, wha chu got?
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Orange Blooded [4679]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 1:25 PM
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What I have is exactly what he said I’m entitled to, my opinion! I don’t change just because you think you are right. What I “got” us no patience for people who suddenly after 150 years decide it’s time to stir dissection. By the way, if the government came through my neighborhood killing my neighbors and threatening my family then yes, I would expect future generations to be a little more understanding of the “complexity” of the situation.
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Starter [375]
TigerPulse: 71%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 2:06 PM
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fortunately the country and flag the confederacy fought against does provide for you to have such an opinion.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 3:32 PM
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Yes it does and if the United States were to come under attack I’ll be one of the first to stand to defend it.
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All-In [10999]
TigerPulse: 100%
45
Posts: 10924
Joined: 2013
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 4:12 PM
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democrats dissolved the republic with their fake ballots
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Tiger Titan [50266]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 39100
Joined: 1998
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bump***
Dec 29, 2020, 1:28 PM
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All-In [10999]
TigerPulse: 100%
45
Posts: 10924
Joined: 2013
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Re: Military bases named after traitors
Dec 29, 2020, 4:04 PM
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BT ever been on a military base?
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