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TigerNet Zenith XVII [∞]
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Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 3:09 PM
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I want to say I am shocked by all of the outrage, both from Syracuse and nationally, about the game and how Clemson was "gifted" a victory. That word, gifted, is from a Syracuse grad who is a media friend of mine who is downright angry over the outcome. But I was not shocked. It's a passionate game, with passionate fans and players and coaches, and we all overreact at times.
Me? I just don't look at penalties at this big deciding factor most of the time, because you've got 60 minutes to try and win the game. Both teams had chances to put it away - Clemson couldn't because of turnovers, and Syracuse had chances late but clock management issues from their head coach and an interception by their QB ended it. Also....the Orange had several chances to put Clemson away, up 21-10, and didn't do it.
A guy who covers NC State decided to take it upon himself to interject the fact that Clemson was helped by the ACC office, that there was no way the ACC would let Clemson lose, and that Clemson gets all the calls.
Let's take a look at that fallacy - heading into the game, Clemson was sixth in Power Five of fewest holding penalties called against opposing offenses (I think there were two all year). Yes, with XT and Murphy and KJ and TD and Ruke and Bresee and all that talent - sixth-fewest called against. Someone said maybe one since Wake Forest, which is nuts to me). Here is another great stat - Clemson has been called for 6.3 penalties per game this season, as opposed to 6.4 for opponents. So, the same.
Now, Syracuse...that crew is one of the most penalized teams in the nation at nearly 10 per game. They were gonna get called, especially after just two in the first half, because their numbers say that is who they are. And look, you can call holding on every play. On Clemson. On opponents. But when you have a guy get past you and you get him in a chokehold and ride him like the worst cowboy ever at the rodeo, it's gonna get called. And on the out of bounds play where many people feel like Garrett Shrader should have drawn a personal foul penalty, there were at least two instances of holding.
It goes on all game. Both sides benefitted from calls. Both sides had calls go against them, both good and bad. That's where we go back to 60 minutes of football. I ran into Mark Packer after the game, and I will use a phrase he likes to use a lot - score more points. Don't let the officials dictate it. Score more points.
Blaming officials is an easy rallying cry when you get beat. And it's lazy. And should be beneath some of the people commenting. But that's where we are. Headed to get my kid a Halloween costume - maybe I should make him an ACC official and scare some of the other teams.
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All-Time Great [89510]
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Is he the same cuse guy that ranked Clemson 7th?***
Oct 24, 2022, 3:12 PM
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Ultimate Tiger [38974]
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Syracuse and Other Fools Are Then Claiming Their Inability
Oct 24, 2022, 3:12 PM
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to score for almost 3/4 of the game was a result of officiating. For a Journalism school they really look stupid.
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Legend [15863]
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Cade penalty could have been targeting as well
Oct 24, 2022, 3:12 PM
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if that was Clemson I feel like it would have been a targeting call against us
go back and watch it
our defender was all over the guy in bounds and pulled up
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Rival Killer [3013]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 3:14 PM
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One of the holds on the no call on shredder was incredibly obvious, with an official looking right at it.
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Clemson Sports Icon [54199]
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I've decided to take it upon myself to interject the fact that
Oct 24, 2022, 3:17 PM
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NC State sucks.
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Orange Immortal [67583]
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As I said earlier...
Oct 24, 2022, 3:18 PM
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the officials did not hand Clemson the game on Saturday. In fact, the next time the officials do ANYTHING to help Clemson will be the first time. Syracuse played two solid quarters of football aided greatly by a host of Clemson turnovers and a plethora of holding and PI no calls by the officials. However, a college football game consists of four quarters, and Syracuse got completely dominated and outplayed in the second half, because champions find the will and a way to win. Maybe the Syracuse offense should have scored some points off of all the turnovers or put some points on the board in the second half. They did neither and, at the end of the day, that is largely why they lost.
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Game Day Hero [4107]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 3:21 PM
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They were holding the ENTIRE game but didn't get it called enough in first half
Their biggest gripe was the hit out of bounds which were both good calls.
My neighbor didn't even want to talk to me about it - his son went to Cuse.
NC State has nothing to say
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Tiger Spirit [9712]
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That always annoys me, blaming the officials
Oct 24, 2022, 3:21 PM
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In EVERY GAME there are bad calls against BOTH teams. Like DHood said, with subjective penalties like holding, personal fouls/roughing or PI, those could be called on almost every play. The referees have to allow some leeway in there on those type of calls. Some are more egregious than others, granted, but ultimately, for all of those penalties, it's a subjective judgement call by the official based on his (or her, these days) perspective and angle.
Yes, bad calls can kill drives or renew drives. It happens. Frequently to both teams at some point during the game. But ultimately the game is 60 minutes and close to two-hundred plays between the two teams.
The officials are a part of the game. Sometimes they get in the way physically, sometimes they get in the way with bad calls. They're as much as part of the game as the weather. It's one of those intangibles.
I give the Syracuse QB credit - when asked about it he said that he thought the hit on him was worse than the hit they were penalized for on us, but then he basically said that it doesn't matter - it's part of the game. You shouldn't be at a place where one bad call can kill the game for you.
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Orange Immortal [63909]
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Re: That always annoys me, blaming the officials
Oct 24, 2022, 3:25 PM
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but sometimes the weather only rains on the Notre Dame side of the field.
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Orange Immortal [63909]
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What about DJ having his hand cleated by an SU player?
Oct 24, 2022, 3:23 PM
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Why no talk about that?
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Orange Immortal [67583]
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Probably because it would be difficult to prove...
Oct 24, 2022, 4:38 PM
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that it was deliberate even though past experience with them more than supports a history of them trying to injure our RB and QB, and then brag about doing it.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 3:27 PM
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I say the officiating was rather poor. Both inconsistent and when the inconsistencies happened, it was game changing. I said in a different thread was that the ref "allowed them to play" and while that benefited Cuse early on, when they did call something, that also hit Cuse more often since they were "encroaching" moreso on things that were not being called. I think the refs were too lose early on and then had to tighten up. That is going to make folks mad. Heck, everyone is going to be mad.
The hit on Cade was correct but it was game changing. Heck, the defender lowered his shoulder and helmet and made helmet-to-helmet contact. Compared that to an extended arm. That was more of a potential targeting penalty - but they relaxed it for the less costly flag. Now, when you had a Cuse QB being pushed OOB, that flag *could* have happened later. However, for cuse but it was not called (likely because they completely missed some of the most obvious holding at the same time).
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Clemson Icon [27086]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 3:29 PM
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My take is this - Syracuse got away with holding and PI throughout the entire first half. I think they believed they could do whatever they wanted and not get called for it. This is why their heads exploded when the were called for a few penalties in the second half. I almost get it. They got away with it so long they thought they could keep doing it.
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Freshman [-97]
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Tell ‘em Coot, no one knows losing better than you
Oct 24, 2022, 3:30 PM
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JK your a great man Hood!
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Clemson Icon [24892]
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Tell 'em u7c coot, no one knows losing better than you
Oct 24, 2022, 5:23 PM
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30-0
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Trainer [45]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 3:35 PM
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You mentioned that, heading into the game, Clemson was 6th in fewest holding penalties called against opposing offenses. Any chance you have a top 10 (or more) list for that stat?
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Oculus Spirit [41794]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 3:35 PM
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Headed to get my kid a Halloween costume - maybe I should make him an ACC official and scare some of the other teams.
If your kid went as a female Tennessee Vol fan, it would give Jermaine Burton and Nick Saban a scare.
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National Champion [7975]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 3:39 PM
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After the dust settles, life goes on. It's on to ND. Go tigers.
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Game Changer [1686]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 3:45 PM
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I am sick of ALL things ACC. I yearn for the day that the powers that be at Clemson get the nerve to tell ACC and every team in it to pound sand. I’d rather play in Big 10, Big 12 or SEC for nothing than to have to deal with classless idiot bush league ACC. Sorry but it is so obvious that the league office is dictating that Clemson is playing 11 on 18 players every game!!!
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Clemson Sports Icon [59606]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 25, 2022, 12:03 PM
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Like David stated, with the highly talented monsters we have on the D, if the Refs were doing their job, they could throw their rags on about every down against opposing teams offense. But just let a Clemson O lineman fart once the ball is snapped, and we will see rags all over the ground!!!
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CU Medallion [18420]
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Syracuse lost their composure in that one.
Oct 24, 2022, 3:57 PM
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From largely penalty free to dumb penalties as the game transpired. Plus, when your 2nd half offense consists of
Punt
Punt
Punt
Punt
Punt
Punt
Pick
you might want to look elsewhere for blame.
Go Tigers.
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Clemson Sports Icon [57824]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 4:00 PM
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Dress him like a baby in a Syracuse outfit.
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Gridiron Giant [15703]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 4:06 PM
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Yeah. I can't understand why Syracuse is complaining about penalties. Going into the game (through 6 games), they were averaging 9.8 penalties per game and ranked 131 out of 131 (obviously the most penalized team in FCS Div 1). So 10 panalties against Clemson just maintains there average through 7 games. That's just how they play.
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Asst Coach [894]
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Wanna see a missed call? At around the 12:00 min time in the
Oct 24, 2022, 4:14 PM
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4th quarter BEFORE Shrader is forced to scramble, watch Syracuse’s #57’s blatant hold on Clemson’s #22. We’ll, to be frank, it was more of a tackle than a hold!
That no call against Syracuse is proof beyond cavil the refs were still trying to gift the game to Syracuse!
Go Tigers!
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Dynasty Maker [3210]
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Louder for the people in the back!
Oct 24, 2022, 4:20 PM
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Isn't that holding on the same play where Shrader is pushed out of bounds?
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Asst Coach [894]
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^^^ YES! That the very SAME PLAY where Shrader was pushed!
Oct 24, 2022, 4:26 PM
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I defy anyone to look at the game video of that play and honestly say that was not a blatant hold and a missed call by the refs! It’s not like it was away from the action and easy to miss - it was right at Shrader who had the football!
Go Tigers!
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Head Coach [752]
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Re: Wanna see a missed call? At around the 12:00 min time in the
Oct 24, 2022, 4:28 PM
[ in reply to Wanna see a missed call? At around the 12:00 min time in the ] |
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Lol I rember that last one in real time. I saw that, thought, 100% holding, moved on to watch some other part of the action and then eventually looked back and didn't see the flag.
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Orange Beast [6584]
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Re: Wanna see a missed call? At around the 12:00 min time in the
Oct 24, 2022, 4:30 PM
[ in reply to Wanna see a missed call? At around the 12:00 min time in the ] |
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This is all I want: the head of officiating in the ACC to come on the ACC Network and be shown 3 second clips of blatant holding calls, all at the point of attack that allow ball carriers or scrambling QBs to gain yards or get off throws, and explain to the fan bases why they didn’t see what they thought they saw. Just take a shot at it. Despite what Hood says above penalties, or the consistent lack of penalties called, GREATLY affect the outcomes of games. Just like blatant PI with no call affects games. Call penalties so lazy players and coaches don’t benefit from poor technique or purposeful teaching of illegal technique. Is that really too much to ask?
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Dynasty Maker [3151]
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Re: Wanna see a missed call? At around the 12:00 min time in the
Oct 24, 2022, 4:56 PM
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So agree. You would have 6 hour games holding were called like it is in the NFL. Especially the teams with really good lines. But eventually it would cease like the targeting hits have.
The fact that Clemson has had so few through the first part of the year while us fans rack up the obvious holding complaints is disgusting.
Wondering if after the FSU game Dabo had had enough and talked the league. Saying if you don’t start to call this I am calling your officials with evidence for what they are. The worst in the country. ACC officiating is the worst by the way based on games I have watched over the decades.
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Dynasty Maker [3178]
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Dynasty Maker [3151]
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Re: Wanna see a missed call? At around the 12:00 min time in the
Oct 24, 2022, 4:47 PM
[ in reply to Wanna see a missed call? At around the 12:00 min time in the ] |
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Yep. And this was seconds before Schrader ran out of bounds. So looks like offsetting to me.
I was doing a count in the first half of holdings that were not called. I was up to 5. One was outside on a perimeter run.
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110%er [3673]
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Valley Legend [12934]
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The Clemson football team tried to hand Syracuse the game.
Oct 24, 2022, 4:33 PM
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They didn't take it in time before we decided not today.
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Valley Legend [12327]
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"when you have a guy get past you and you get him in a ..."
Oct 24, 2022, 4:47 PM
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"....chokehold and ride him like the worst cowboy ever at the rodeo, it's gonna get called." yeah it was that obvious!
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All-American [579]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 5:23 PM
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After re-watch it was a no call and rightfully so. Their feet are tangled and qb is going to trip and fall. Qb is actively stiff arming Clemson player, he pushed off to get room to throw. Lb had every right to keep clawing at his jersey to prevent a first down throw.
Having said that, the hit on cade wasn't that bad either. Probably a no call. The cuse player just hit him too hard and it looked bad. Really, cade is in bounds and running up the line.
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Ring of Honor [23659]
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National Champion [7353]
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All-American [579]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 5:23 PM
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After re-watch it was a no call and rightfully so. Their feet are tangled and qb is going to trip and fall. Qb is actively stiff arming Clemson player, he pushed off to get room to throw. Lb had every right to keep clawing at his jersey to prevent a first down throw.
Having said that, the hit on cade wasn't that bad either. Probably a no call. The cuse player just hit him too hard and it looked bad. Really, cade is in bounds and running up the line.
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All-American [579]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 5:23 PM
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After re-watch it was a no call and rightfully so. Their feet are tangled and qb is going to trip and fall. Qb is actively stiff arming Clemson player, he pushed off to get room to throw. Lb had every right to keep clawing at his jersey to prevent a first down throw.
Having said that, the hit on cade wasn't that bad either. Probably a no call. The cuse player just hit him too hard and it looked bad. Really, cade is in bounds and running up the line.
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Clemson Icon [24892]
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Old syracuse sean mcdonough is the whiners leader
Oct 24, 2022, 5:26 PM
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He whined a lot during the game
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Tiger Spirit [9895]
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Trotters hands were on the qb before they went ob
Oct 24, 2022, 7:33 PM
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He never extended his arms to push him. I watched again and the qb slowed up and tripped over his own feet.
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Heisman Winner [78360]
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That last bit was pretty funny.***
Oct 24, 2022, 7:54 PM
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1st Rounder [608]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 8:28 PM
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Awesome post David, thank you.
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Orange Blooded [2300]
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could u are somebody show the 2 out of bounds plays in
Oct 24, 2022, 9:02 PM
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question?. I think why they didn't flag us is because a hand was placed on the Syracuse player but it didn't Impead his movement. I think Refs do the same thing when deciding to through a flag on pass interference
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Ring of Honor [23659]
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CU Medallion [19240]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 9:09 PM
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And they seem to forget that if we hadn't dropped a gift inside the 10 on the way to our own TD, allowing them to return it 90 yds for their TD, the score would have been 34-14 and we aren't even talking about any of this.
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Rival Killer [2638]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 24, 2022, 10:31 PM
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What a bunch of whiny, crybabies.
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CU Guru [1628]
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NC State fans and reporters
Oct 24, 2022, 10:51 PM
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have zero room to talk about officiating! That was some of the very worse calls I’ve ever seen and in favor of NC State. Shut up State! You don’t have a puppy in this fight anymore.
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Clemson Sports Icon [59606]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 25, 2022, 11:47 AM
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If this or that had, or had not happen in that game, it's a moot point if Clemson hadn't put the ball on the ground twice, or if DJ hadn't thrown INT's. The "TRUTH" Syracuse was lucky that Clemson mistakes actually made them look better than they actually were against a Clemson team that repeatedly kept shooting its self in the foot.
Screw-um, that's why they never win any championships, they depend to much on team to hurt themselves, or for the Refs to give them something, and that's why their coach is always on the hot seat, as whole, they can't earn a win in a hard fought game, the way that Clemson has done this past decade, and the world knows that the Refs don't give Clemson nothing!!!!
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Rival Killer [2618]
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This is precisely why I posted yesterday that the hurry up, up tempo offense
Oct 25, 2022, 11:47 AM
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Needs to be used for all or most of the game. We need to score points. Period. We did it against Wake. Why not against these other teams?
The hurry up offense resulted in a 50 yard Shipley TD run. We seem to always move the ball better/easier when we play fast and keep the opposing defense on their heels.
In the 2 drives after that 50 yard TD by Shipley, we went back to trying to milk every second of the play clock and played slow = punt, then fg. We played not to lose. It’s almost as if Dabo said, “ok we’ve got the lead, I don’t want Cade to have to do too much. Let’s just try and play keep away until the game is over”.
Do like the dham 4th quarter video says, and take away the opposing team’s will to win. Play to WIN.
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Clemson Sports Icon [59606]
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Re: This is precisely why I posted yesterday that the hurry up, up tempo offense
Oct 25, 2022, 11:54 AM
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There is a plus with us running a fast pace offense that we didn't have back when we use to be a hurry up no huddle offense, and that is Clemson has been of late, 2-3 deep talented along the defensive line, and that's a PLUS for a fast pace offense.
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National Champion [8049]
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The Fact CU is 5th fewest calls for, "tells all"!
Oct 25, 2022, 12:42 PM
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5th fewest calls against opponents!
To me that says a lot.
It says, "people out there don't want to see Clemson in the CFP"!
Why? Because every opponent we have played to date has not recruited as well as Clemson. In no way, shape or form did all those teams just "match-up straight up"!
If opponents have just Matched-up so well that the play was allowed to just go; we have done a bad job and the recruiting services have done a bad job of evaluations.
I am specifically referring to WRs being held/interfered with and DLs being held.
Perhaps some of our offensive struggles have been made worse by the fact; teams can hold and interfere with our players. Normally when you have a recruiting advantage; it shows up!
The stats support that "it has not been showing up"! If the opponent can get away with it; why wouldn't they do it? Some of the screens against us early season; there were "illegals down field" not called.
The video shows it - if you think this is just Clemson paranoia! Same with the holding of WRs and DL.
What's the end game here?
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Orange Beast [6456]
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Refs called maybe 20% of the actual tackling err holding on Cuse
Oct 25, 2022, 12:49 PM
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And pretty much all of that was in the 2nd half.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 25, 2022, 1:06 PM
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We outgained them 450 - 291 and had one of our running backs run for 172 yards and another running back go for 94 yards. To complain about the game being given away due to the refs calling throwing a flag on one late hit and not throwing a flag for what you felt was a late hit later in the game is beyond stupid when you were outgained by over 150 yards. Syracuse was up by 11 at halftime and scored ZERO points in the 2nd half. How about blaming the outcome on that?
I'd also argue that the Syracuse defending that was flagged for sticking his fingers on the neck/face of CK should have been tossed from the game.
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All-American [577]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 25, 2022, 6:36 PM
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Thanks for the report David
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Game Day Hero [4432]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Regarding Syracuse and penalties
Oct 25, 2022, 7:08 PM
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Amen!
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