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Replies: 49
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All-In [11091]
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The sequence of events is as follows:
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Sep 16, 2025, 6:15 PM
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December 5, 2021: Brent Venables leaves his defensive coordinator position at Clemson to become the new head coach at the University of Oklahoma.
December 6, 2021: Keon Sabb announces his decision to decommit from Clemson.
December 9, 2021: Jihaad Campbell decommits.
December 10, 2021: Daylen Everette decommits, citing "uncertainty about Clemson".
The departures were a significant blow to Clemson's 2022 recruiting class, as Venables was known as a key recruiter. All three of the decommitted players were highly-ranked prospects from the prestigious IMG Academy.
this is the week when it all ended .
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Oculus Spirit [43669]
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Posts: 19374
Joined: 2015
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Re: The sequence of events is as follows:
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Sep 16, 2025, 6:33 PM
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Disagree. Trevor was good enough to hide our woes. It started earlier than that. If everything else in place we should have won the NC 2 out of the three years that TL was here.
Not at all saying your week wasn’t significant, it was
Message was edited by: lovingit®
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Clemson Conqueror [11161]
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Re: The sequence of events is as follows:
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Sep 16, 2025, 6:40 PM
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Some truth to that.
Like the Braves of the 90s, why did we only win one with Trevor?
Agree the decline started before 21.
But that week was a watershed moment.
I will add the Covid hurt us more than most because of our reliance on getting kids on campus.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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No, its completely the truth.
Sep 16, 2025, 10:02 PM
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If we had a great/elite QB since 2021, then the subject post is irrelevant, albeit the defense struggled at times last year.
If our QB today was playing great/elite, than we are 3-0 and none of this emotional nonsense is happening.
It’s just that simple.
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Game Changer [1899]
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Re: No, its completely the truth.
Sep 17, 2025, 1:55 AM
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If we had a great/elite QB since 2021, then the subject post is irrelevant, albeit the defense struggled at times last year.
If our QB today was playing great/elite, than we are 3-0 and none of this emotional nonsense is happening.
It’s just that simple.
In 8 years we had two championships too show for having his use of generation quarterbacks of eight years. In 2019 our condition for especially on the wellness side, keeping a player from having a torn Achilles tendon and things of that nature started occurring lots more for our wide receivers in speed and edge players. I don’t know what happened in the timeframe but something happened And there was a hiccup and all of a sudden our strength conditioning/wellness program became mortal.
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Clemson Conqueror [11161]
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All-In [11091]
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Varsity [122]
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Re: The sequence of events is as follows:
Sep 16, 2025, 11:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: The sequence of events is as follows: ] |
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Agreed. You could see Trevor’s last year a decline but like you said his talent masked a lot of it.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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Trevors best year statistically was his last season.
Sep 16, 2025, 11:45 PM
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It was the most productive passing game in Clemson history.
Where do you folks get this stuff?
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All-Pro [738]
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Re: Trevors best year statistically was his last season.
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Sep 17, 2025, 12:20 AM
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We couldn't really run it. I remember a ton of passing to Etienne, a Clemson legend. Trevor put the team in his back for sure. Regardless, we haven't developed first pick qb again... And it's just not that easy. So, the weaknesses have been uncovered. Coaching and talent issues are here.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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We missed on DJ but it wasnt a developmental issue.
Sep 17, 2025, 1:02 AM
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DJ was DJ.
We developed Cade into a Heisman frontrunner, and he’s lost his way a little bit to start the season.
Cade isn’t Trevor or Deshaun, obviously, but he’s shown tremendous potential. Consistency has been his bugaboo.
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Orange Blooded [2538]
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Re: The sequence of events is as follows:
Sep 16, 2025, 7:46 PM
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🥱
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All-In [11091]
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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Hey at least you tried. So theres that. It as a better effort than your typical
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Sep 16, 2025, 10:06 PM
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short little trolls, but it’s a fail nonetheless.
A great/elite QB is the difference since 2021.
Even still, I’ll say it again, we are 9th in total wins since 2021. Yes, we need to do better and o believe that starts this week, but to suggest we have been as bad as some of you want to portray, that’s weak sauce.
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All-In [11091]
TigerPulse: 100%
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pump sunshine pump
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Sep 16, 2025, 10:14 PM
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and tell me more and all about that ACC gauntlet where the wins came from . (maybe the bottom feeder SEC wins counted too)
Kelly Bryant did fine in the whole Chad Morris+ offense
Tajh Boyd did fine in the whole Chad Morris+ offense
(they all have the same NFL career outcome as DJU and about to be Cade)
Cade and DJU would be putting up numbers in a high tempo and high flying show
the current coaching staff doesn't have it - the lighting in a bottle , the score board running up , putting 40 on the GOATed Alabama staff in 2015 . that was a decade ago
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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Ive stated nothing but the facts. Thats not pumping.
Sep 16, 2025, 10:48 PM
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I refuted your off base attempt, and you’ve not even addressed my succinct and accurate assessment. It would have been great to have BV during 21-24, but then again the defense was only a concern one year and Brent can’t fix average QBs. It’s not 1980 anymore and if you don’t have a great/QB you’re just not going to succeed at the highest levels. Period. BV or no BV.
And too, when you’re 9th in overall wins and 12th in ranked wins, that’s not merely feeding on bottom feeders.
Bryant didn’t play in Chads offense. Bryant showed the limits of his skillset and that’s why he was replaced. But what does Bryant have to do with the price of tea in China? Totally irrelevant in regards to 2021-23.
Not sure why you brought Boyd into the equation either, but since you did I think we can all agree the program would have been even better than 9th if he was running the show in 21-23 instead of DJ.
Cade is leaps and bounds better than DJ, as long as he gets his head straight. Not even close. At no point did DJ ever get in the neighborhood of the 15th ranked QBR and nowhere near the 11th ranked offense. Cade >>> DJ.
Not sure what the heck that litrle blurb was about a “high tempo and high flying show”, but no, DJ would be even worse if he had to do anything quickly. Too, can you name any elite programs who are running high tempo high flying shows? Similarly, can you name 10 programs in the P5 who are using this high tempo high flying show? What does any of that have to do with right now?
The current coaching staff is experienced with exhibited production at every position. The entire team is hampered by a QB trying to find his way.
Yet again, DJU 2021, DJ 2022, young Cade 2023, and defense on 2024. That’s the entirety of where we are. If Cade returns to proven from then we can win em all.
2015-2020 we and a couple dudes named Deshaun Watson and Trevor Lawrence. Yes, Brent was the best DC on the country, but without DW and TL the program is not better than we’ve been since 2021.
Again, the most important position on the field is the QB, and without a great/eliite QB on today’s game, you’re not going to be a great/elite team regardless of how the defense plays. It’s starts at QB, period.
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Orange Elite [5554]
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Re: Ive stated nothing but the facts. Thats not pumping.
5
5
Sep 16, 2025, 10:57 PM
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Georgia and Michigan won titles without a generational talent at QB. Ohio State did it last year as well. They played complimentary and were in sync without a T-Law or Watson at QB and had some majorly impressive defenses. They did it with some ole Johnny Applewood QB who chops trees for fun and drives his pick up truck in high school.
Spin it how you want and makes you bury your head more. Pump as much sunshine as you like, eventually you'll join reality with everyone else like I did. It's evident this program is slipping in more areas than just QB and it has been that way for a while now.
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All-In [11091]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Alabama and Ohio State and LSU too
Sep 16, 2025, 11:03 PM
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ohnjust saw you said OSU .
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Orange Elite [5554]
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Re: Alabama and Ohio State and LSU too
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Sep 16, 2025, 11:10 PM
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Yup, Alabama did it a few times under Saban. Granted some of those were in different times before the Hurry-Up RPO offense became the norm. But he did it in 2015 with Jake Coker and 2020 with Mac Jones. Just plain pocket passers.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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Mac Jones had the #1 QBR in the country in 2020.***
Sep 16, 2025, 11:38 PM
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Stetson Bennet played elite and is still in the NFL (best players in the world).
Sep 16, 2025, 11:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ive stated nothing but the facts. Thats not pumping. ] |
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JJ McCarthy is the starting QB for Minnesota.
Will Howard the 7th best QBR in the country last year. Will is also in the NFL.
I’m pretty sure all of them played leaps and bounds better than DJ.
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Orange Elite [5554]
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Re: Stetson Bennet played elite and is still in the NFL (best players in the world).
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Sep 16, 2025, 11:12 PM
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And none of those guys would hold T-Laws or Deshauns jock in college comparitively.
DJ was also in the NFL until a few weeks ago. Just because those QBs are on roster doesn't mean they're great and may not be there next year. I'm just saying, it can be done without an all-world QB. Will Howard, Stetson Bennett, Mac Jones aren't going to wow you with magical plays out their @zz to save the game. They just cross their t's and dot their i's and get their job done. I'm just saying, our problems are deeper than JUST QB. But I am aware our QB situation is a disaster in itself too.
Generational QB's hide your flaws, which we had some post 2018 with Trevor. Playcalling became questionable at times in the LSU title game. And 2020, our lack of receiving threats and playcalling became worse as well. Didn't help the defense was in a small rebuild in 2020 as well. Because if it's just a great QB you need then Louisville should've won a couple of National Titles with Lamar Jackson and Teddy Bridgewater.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Trevor and Deshaun were elite. Of course.
Sep 16, 2025, 11:36 PM
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I’ve shown you the QB examples you gave me, and all of them played great/elite in their natty years.
Point stands.
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Orange Elite [5554]
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Re: Trevor and Deshaun were elite. Of course.
Sep 16, 2025, 11:44 PM
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🥱 it's bedtime Clay Swinney. You can pump more sunshine and say all is fine tomorrow. My point still stands too. QBR is a meaningless metric. Losing team QB's will have good QBR's. DJ had some good QBR days too. I know what my eyes see. You can take your numbers and go back to the BCS days.
Go kick Cade in the nuts and tell him he needs to boost his QBR and play better too. I guarantee you that'd only make Clemson 'X' amount better. Until the offensive line, the defense getting better and the situational play calling is better as well, "we are what we put on film" as Woodazz says.
I genuinely don't know why you continue to argue with me though. It's annoying at this point because we ultimately agree QB is a problem but there's more than that that's also a reoccurring issue.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Sucks when your handpicked examples flop, huh?
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Sep 16, 2025, 11:57 PM
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DJ never was never above 54 in QBR, coming off a #95 QBR. Sorry dude, that’s another swing and a miss.
QBR is perhaps the most important rating for a QB. It measures overall impact of passing, rushing, and situational factors including TD/INT ratios. Name any stat more encompassing than that.
I’ve also shown you completion %, yds, TD/INT.
We haven’t had QB play in the same hemisphere as your handpicked examples, accept for Cade last year. And we all know what hindered us rhe most last year.
Clay signing out.. with the W. 🙂
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Orange Elite [5554]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Sucks when your handpicked examples flop, huh?
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Sep 17, 2025, 12:02 AM
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I also saw Cade get his s##t shoved in last year against UGA and the Coots. Two teams that either went to the playoffs or got close to being in. And also Louisville and many times look average against bad teams as well, in his "great year where if we had a defense we would've won more." You can cherry pick your BS too. Like I said, my eyes don't fool me. I saw us only score 3 points against UGA and only 14 against the coots.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Dude, youve lost focus and are all over the place now.
Sep 17, 2025, 12:09 AM
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Again, in order to be a great/elite team in today’s game you need to have great/eliye play at the most important position on the field. You tried to disprove that notion with 3 or 4 QBs, but when you look at the facts all of them did indeed play great/elite.
I’m not saying you’re automatically a great/elite program just because you have a great QB. That’s not what I said at all.
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Orange Elite [5554]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Dude, youve lost focus and are all over the place now.
Sep 17, 2025, 12:15 AM
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And I'm telling you, most of those guys are not "Elite" QB's. They just made the plays expected of them. They weren't Lamar Jackson's, T-Laws, Deshaun Watsons, Justin Fields, etc. In college they were all arguably in the same air as Blake Sims or Carson Beck. They did their jobs, played good and that's it. Did just enough to win and not lose the game.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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How do we judge performance in sports?
Sep 17, 2025, 12:36 AM
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Statistics.
All of the statistics for the QBs you tried to pass off as average joes were great/elite.
Comparing to DW and TL is wholly irrelevant.
And again, I’m not saying a great/elite QB guarantees a great/elite program.
What I am saying is you won’t be great/elite on today’s game without great/elite QB play.
My examples support that, and ironically your handpicked examples further corroborate that.
The gavel has been pounding my friend. This one is over.
It doesn’t need to be personal. Don’t get mad. Here, virtual handshake 🤝
Go Tigers!
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Sorry man, every QB you mentioned played great/elite.
Sep 17, 2025, 12:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: Stetson Bennet played elite and is still in the NFL (best players in the world). ] |
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No two ways about it.
I’d suggest you actually research things before trying to enter them into a debate.
In today’s game you need great/elite play from the most important position on the field to be a great/elite team. Not being very good at all at QB in 3 of the last 4 seasons is precisely why we are “only” 9th in wins over that span.
Ok, now I’m out with the W.
Take care. Go Tigers!
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Orange Elite [5554]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Sorry man, every QB you mentioned played great/elite.
Sep 17, 2025, 12:05 AM
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"Actually research things" Yeah, like I feel like diving into the archives for you even though you won't change your mind anyways when the film has already been dissected numerous times by others on our struggles. But nobody asked those QB's to be like T-Law or Deshauns and take games into their own hands nearly week in and week out. They were surrounded by top talent, good coaches, and great defenses. I'm not saying they're some dog#### QB's. But they're not Michael Vick either.
Again, I don't know why you continue to argue with me like some dumb@zz redditor until you're "proven wrong" even though we agree on the fact QB is an issue.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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Why so emotional ?
Sep 17, 2025, 12:20 AM
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Wouldn’t the loser of a debate be the “dumb@zz”?
You should have looked before jumping. I assure you if you were able to prove my statement wrong then I’d gladly admit it.
But you handpicked some guys, and viola! They also played great/elite.
And I’m sorry, but how are you even in the same debate by comparing DW and TL to those great/elite QBs? It doesn’t change the fact they were great/elite.
Point stands guy. Obviously.
Now I can see you’re getting frustrated and starting to namecall. It’s not worth all that.
See the facts. Understand the facts. Fact remains, without great/elite QB play you’re simply not going to be great/elite in today’s game… even using the failed examples you gave me.
No if you want to argue other alleged reasons, I’m game, but it all matters none if your QB isn’t any good.
It all starts there.
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Orange Elite [5554]
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Re: Why so emotional ?
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Sep 17, 2025, 12:54 AM
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I'm frustrated because I'm tired and just got home from driving a round trip from SC to Ohio. This is my last reply before this old man goes to bed.
We agree ultimately that we need better QB play. I'll handshake to that 🤝
But JJ McCarthy and Stetson Bennett were just average joes at QB in college. I'll die on that hill.
And I didn't namecall you per say. Just redditors.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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Re: Why so emotional ?
Sep 17, 2025, 1:09 AM
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Ok maybe it was just that “dum@ss” thing. I kinda see that as namecalling but it’s all good.
That is a long drive and that will wear you out for sure.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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Lets take a deeper dive into your QB examples.
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Sep 16, 2025, 11:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ive stated nothing but the facts. Thats not pumping. ] |
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Stetson Bennett natty year - #6 QBR, 68.3%, 4121 yds, 27 TDs, 7 INTs
JJ McCarthy natty year- #3 QBR. 72.3%, 2991 yds, 22 TDs, 4 INTs
Will Howard natty year- #7 QBR. 73.1%, 4010 yds, 35 TDs, 10 INTs
All of your QB examples played great/elite.
For comparison -
DJ his final year- #54 QBR, 62.1%, 2521 yds, 22 TDs, 7 INTs
Cade 2023- #69 QBR, 63.9%, 2843 yds, 19 TDs, 9 INTs.
Cade 2024- #15 QBR, 63.4%, 3639 yds, 36 TDs, 6 INTs. This was great/elite. No defense.
I maintain, to be great/elite in today’s game, you need great/elite play from your QB.
Fix the QB and we can be great/elite.
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Orange Elite [5554]
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Re: Lets take a deeper dive into your QB examples.
Sep 16, 2025, 11:56 PM
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JJ McCarthy was not "elite" at Michigan. They wanted him benched many times. He was just a game manager. Nothing elite about him in college. Same could be said with Stetson Bennett. Will Howards TD and passing stats are higher because he went and played an extra 2 games compared to the other guys due to a new playoff system. He wasn't a generational talent, just a good QB. My point still stands, you can have an average joe at QB, but as long as he just does his job, can make the passes asked of him and can just be a decent QB, you can go far. But you also need a D@MN good defense to back you up and a great surrounding cast at WR and a good offensive line. None of those I'd say we really have right now currently and most of those we haven't had in years
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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NONE of your examples were average Joes.
Sep 17, 2025, 12:22 AM
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Your point has been invalidated.
Come on man. This was over an hour ago.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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Not a knock but you are literally flailing with words.
Sep 17, 2025, 12:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: Lets take a deeper dive into your QB examples. ] |
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JJ McCarthy played great/elite in the natty year and he’s an NFL starting QB. Usually only great/elite level QBs end up starting in the NFL, but what do I know.
Again, sports are measured by statistics. The statistics of the game have been developed over 100 years.
The statistics of the QBs we spoke about today all confirm they played great/elite. It cannot be denied. Yeah you can dance around them and try to come up with new tangents and say “well his stats were only great because…” all you want friend. But the measurements used to define the play of the QB all indicate exactly what I’m contending.
You don’t see great/elite teams in today’s game without a QB playing at a great/elite level. And to bring that full circle, if Cade can become great/elite like he showed much of the season including the best (#3) defense we played at Texas, then we could be great/elite. If he doesn’t, then we don’t stand a chance.
JJ McCarthy played great/elite.
Will Howard played great/elite.
Mac Jones played elite.
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All-Pro [723]
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Re: Lets take a deeper dive into your QB examples.
Sep 17, 2025, 2:57 AM
[ in reply to Lets take a deeper dive into your QB examples. ] |
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You're a stats guy, stats are for Baseball, the final score on
any high school, college, or Pro scoreboard is the only thing
that matters in football.
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All-In [11091]
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we don't agree on what made the program successful in the past
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Sep 16, 2025, 11:01 PM
[ in reply to Ive stated nothing but the facts. Thats not pumping. ] |
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i'm a process and systems guy
the South Carolina fans use to say we were only good because of our QB.
I don't think that was true . the whole offensive philosophy and approach could make anyone elite and it did.
The Saban, Smart, Muschamp defense tree couldn't even stop it.
When Chad Morris understudies finally left , the whole thing left . the show ended . DJU, Cade doesn't matter - they don't get to play in the show anymore
and Kelly Bryant did great. #1 team all the way to the CFP loss against a phenomenal Alabama team. honestly that whole season was electric except for the end .
Trevor benched everyone including a 5 Star recruit that Kelly Bryant started over .
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Solid Orange [1305]
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Re: The sequence of events is as follows:
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Sep 16, 2025, 8:01 PM
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When BV left he also packed up the heart and soul of the program. BV was one intense, passionate son of a gun. He was replaced by the Pillsbury Dough boy.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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We were 8th in defense in 2021, 28th in 2022, and 8th in 2023.
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Sep 16, 2025, 10:14 PM
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2024 we were 69th. That’s the first season defense has cost us games since Coach V left.
He’s one of the best DCs in the business if not the best. It goes without saying you can’t replace that, but other than one season the defense has done well.
At the same time, the offense has not got it done except for one season. Unfortunately that coincided with the worst defense we’ve had since Kevin Steele and 70-33.
Match the finally good offense in 2024 with the defenses of 21-23, and we possibly walk out of Austin with a win.
We are not that far off people. Go Cade and go Tigers!
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All-In [11091]
TigerPulse: 100%
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back to my OP ... that recruiting class decommiting is what
Sep 16, 2025, 10:22 PM
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created the offense / defense cycle getting out of sync
you. keep root causing in to but not taking the next step in seeing we're
we're an unstable system starting to blow apart
it's just "math" and patterns
the portal is the rip chord . recruiting is not working and this senior class was the last hope . they have to actually win out ... or it is really over
there is no next even close to elite QB1 . Cade is it.
and that's why we are upset . the writing is literally on the walls
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
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Sigh
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Sep 16, 2025, 10:59 PM
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2021- defense was 8th. DJ was bad.
2022- defense was 28th and DJ played a little better.. until his 8-29 day vs the coots which kept us out of the 4 team playoff.
2023- defense was 8th. Cade not so much.
2024- defense was 69th. Cade was 15th in QBR.
We had a great and very good defense following BV. A winning defense. But it matters none of the QB isn’t getting it done.
So yeah by that token you do need a solid defense even when your QB becomes Heisman candidate, but even when you have the 8th ranked defense you’re not going to be great/elite without a great/elite QB.
It’s just as simple as that. The recruits that went with BV, I don’t know how they turned out, but it’s immaterial to the bigger need of having a great/elite QB before the program can reach those heights.
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All-In [11091]
TigerPulse: 100%
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the recruits that left didn't go with BV and
2
Sep 16, 2025, 11:06 PM
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two have won national titles on different teams
and the one that didn't went first round nfl
... those guys would have stayed in roster and covered all the gaps where we are weak today.
Safety, CB, and Edge
Imagine a defense with these three superstars + Jeremiah Trotter, Nate Wiggins, KJ Henry , Andrew Makuba , Trenton Simpson , etc ... for years
Brents defensive rank numbers weren't as high as they should have been because we played second - fourth string for most of the games ... remember that ??
the drop off that matters isn't in the stats
the defense since Brent left lets the teams come back and run the clock how they need to win
But defense is one side of the story
We don't have an offense . we don't have WR threats (grisham has a team of slot WRs). we don't have TE threats(Kyle Richardson can't scheme at all at the position group). we don't have a RB (Spiller never plays the right guy) we don't have an OL (bad recruiting) all because we don't have the coaches . and we're about to not have the recruits because the coaches that needed to build a reputation built one that is not even top100 offense in the nation
Cade had to be that guy. this was the year . the last chance . he is on an island. no QB1 5 star recruit will tank their career like DJU did and CK will by coming to Clemson
a lot of guys will probably be let go this offseason . and Dabo will get to rebuild
things are not good and that elite QB1 is not coming unless NIL $$$$$$ is huge
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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So much wrong in that post.***
Sep 17, 2025, 12:10 AM
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All-Pro [738]
TigerPulse: 87%
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Top TigerNet [31000]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Posts: 21450
Joined: 2024
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Re: The sequence of events is as follows:
Sep 17, 2025, 12:12 AM
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Then the NIL made us less competitive.
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Gridiron Giant [15610]
TigerPulse: 99%
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No, it didnt. Granted some the upper crust have paid $30M like OSU.
Sep 17, 2025, 12:58 AM
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But there are just as many teams, like Texas A&M, who throw money around like candy and still have nothing to show for it.
We have a top notch NIL program. We don’t send as much of it outside as some teams, and instead we keep in house to keep our 4 and 5 stars.
Money is not why we are “only” 9th in wins since 2021.
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