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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Love your enemies.
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Nov 22, 2024, 10:58 AM
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How many really do that? How many proudly, boastfully proclaim otherwise?
Matthew 5:43-48
New International Version
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 22, 2024, 11:23 AM
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Present company excluded, I give it a shot on good days. That's the best I got.
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 22, 2024, 11:38 AM
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Yeah, I'll have to slink shamefully over into the corner on that one...
On the plus side, though, I have very few enemies (that I know about), maybe only 1 or 2. So hopefully judgement is not pass/fail, but on a percentage basis. I score at least a 99+ on that based on how many people I have met in life  ">
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 22, 2024, 11:53 AM
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Actually, I guess it depends on what one considers an enemy, too.
In my case I don't have a 'hot war' going on with anyone, but I have been backstabbed severely twice in my life (and a few more times not so severely); once professionally, and once personally.
Both people are no longer in my life, and so while I certainly don't consider them to be friends, enemies might be too strong a word. Objectively, they were both just opportunists, who left me on the curb, or rather under the bus, for the betterment of themselves.
So while I don't actively seek retribution, I doubt I would give them the time of day, or even a life jacket on a sinking ship, if they asked, lol.
That also brings up the relative nature of human relationships; ie, you only get hurt if you care. (credit to CS Lewis for that one). So, while I have bad feelings about those two occurrences, I doubt they even remember my name. Therefore they probably wouldn't consider me an enemy at all...just some guy they once knew.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Just my opinion, of course, but I believe that God loves everybody
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Nov 22, 2024, 12:32 PM
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unconditionally, including people like Hitler. I think we are supposed to as well.
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Clemson Conqueror [11380]
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Re: Just my opinion, of course, but I believe that God loves everybody
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Nov 22, 2024, 11:51 PM
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Impossible.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98413]
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God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 22, 2024, 5:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: Love your enemies. ] |
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It's a pass/fail test with one question, Have you received Jesus as your savior? Don't worry about a little hate if you haven't accepted God's Christ. It will be the last thing on your mind come judgement day.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Forgive me if I don't take your word for it.***
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Nov 22, 2024, 11:45 PM
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98413]
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It's God's Word not mine.
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Nov 23, 2024, 8:29 AM
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Where does your concept of God come from?
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Forgive me if I don't take YOUR word for that, either.
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Nov 23, 2024, 2:39 PM
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My concept of God comes from many things, but ultimately, exactly like you, I have formed an opinion based on my personal experience, knowledge, and feelings.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98413]
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Three couples got married in a triple ceremony.
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Nov 24, 2024, 7:05 AM
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When they exited the church a young man was there seeking quick interviews, one question was all he asked.
To the first bride, 'Do you feel married?' She responded "Yes and it's wonderful."
To the second the same question to which she responded, "I guess so, I don't know if I know what being married is suppose to feel like."
The third answered the same question, "No, I don't feel any different that I did before we took our vows."
The three couples got into separate cars and drove away to their honeymoons. Which couple was most married?
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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I have no idea, but I assume you are trying to make some kind of point,
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Nov 24, 2024, 10:05 AM
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so why don't you tell me the answer, and make your point so I can respond?
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 23, 2024, 8:45 AM
[ in reply to God doesn't grade on a curve. ] |
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“Have you received Jesus as your savior?”
Does the Bible even teach that?
Jesus and the Old Testament taught obedience.
It’s not until Paul in the New Testament that we get this idea. The closest followers of Jesus didn’t teach that.
Yes I know faith is present in the OT, but not saving faith in Jesus. This is not a biblical concept.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:39 PM
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What comes to mind:
- Rev 3:20
- Galatians 2:20
- John chapter 3
- 1, 2 Peter
These describe not only generally a personal relationship with Jesus rather than mere obedience to direction, but specifically a spiritual indwelling that is the result of one's surrender to Jesus. Even James, seemingly the most legalistic of all at first reading, describes actions as resulting from an internal 'wisdom sent from heaven', rather than being a path to anything.
Your comment says "It's not until Paul ... we get this idea", then "This is not a biblical concept." Paul's letters are biblical. The issue is whether the idea originated with Jesus and was affirmed consistently afterward. Yes to both, it seems.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 24, 2024, 6:25 PM
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In Matthew 19 Jesus was asked a similar question as in John 3. The answers he is reported to have given are different.
In Matthew he tells the man to keep the commandments and give everything to the poor, where as in John 3 he responds with what of course now is the central doctrine of christianity..."whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life".
Also in Matthew, Jesus is quoted saying at the end of times the "sheep and goats" will be separated not by what they believe, but how they've treated the poor.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 24, 2024, 8:40 PM
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Fun interactions, those two. The idea that the NT doesn't call for a personal personal surrender to Jesus - that Paul made it up - seems to now rest on the apparent contradiction between Jesus's answer to Nic and to the Matthew guy. Fair enough. So, about that apparent contradiction:
There was only one question asked, not two. In John 3, Jesus was having a discussion with Nic, who didn't ask a question, while in Matthew Jesus was asked a direct question. The two encounters could not have been more different: opposite purposes by the two who approached him. But Jesus gave them both same answer. The answer seems opposite because the two people are opposite. But the answers are the same.
In Matthew, a person asks "What must I do to be saved?" The guy is coming prideful rather than inquisitive, so Jesus gives him a literally correct answer: "What a person must DO is keep all the law." An inquisitive person would follow up with, "But no one has done that." This prideful person instead says, "I have done all that, since birth." Jesus knew "do not answer a fool according to his folly", so thought, "Okay, lets see how you do with Law #1." "Great. Give all you have to the poor and follow me." The guy, hearing from "Good Teacher" (only God can be), couldn't keep even #1. That was the point of the encounter.
Knowing we are guilty of all the Commandments is what Jesus wants us to start with.
In John, the opposite happens. Nic, a member of the Sanhedrin, and as opposed to the guy above, is well versed in sin. He understands little else. He thinks there is something to Jesus, that his ideas seem to make sense. His fellow Sanhedrin members would think Nic is a bit looney to seek Jesus out for answers, so he goes at night. Nic starts with the same intro: "Teacher, ...". Jesus cuts him off. Doesn't want to hear it. "You must be born again." A 2x4 to the head. Jesus is not willing to entertain an intellectual conversation with a guy who can't come in daylight. Nic is honest enough, not claiming moral righteousness, but is too prideful to come in daylight. Jesus cuts straight to the bottom line. "You must be born again."
Same answer to both guys. "You are lost in your elevation of self. Surrender that to me."
BTW, I think you raise a good point about sheep and goats. It has nothing to do with what one intellectually believes. "You believe in God? Great, Satan does too, more than you." James.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 24, 2024, 10:36 PM
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like if that were the intended message, it would have been delivered in a more straightforward way instead of one that required speculation to arrive at something other than what was actually said/written. I mean, I don't see this anywhere in Matthew 19: "You are lost in your elevation of self. Surrender that to me." I don't see how you arrive at that, or that the guy came to him "prideful".
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 1:02 AM
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It was very straightforward to the two men who heard it, as the accounts indicate. Nic seems to have become a Jesus follower at the end, so he understood what Jesus was saying to him that night. About the other guy, Jesus explained the exchange immediately. As to how we know he came with a prideful spirit, imagine hearing someone say about the bible, "I have kept it all since birth." Okay. We'll see how that flies.
Sure, it is natural to want what we read to appear straightforward. But almost everything spoken in the bible is said to a specific person for a specific reason, same as all conversations. To apply those conversations will first require understanding those scenes, hearing those things as they did. My description of those conversations is pretty standard - I didn't make them up - which of course doesn't alone make them right, only reasonable.
I forget where I heard this, but the saying went, "The truth will set you free, but first it often makes you miserable." I have found that to be true. It was true of the guy seeking affirmation of his self righteousness, and of Nic thinking he would get a pat on the back for coming under cover of darkness. And I have been in both places, and likely will again. Usually we avoid the unpleasant aspect of truth, preferring something that fits what we want.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 11:24 AM
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I've read it, and the context is people have gathered to hear Jesus speak. And this particular interaction goes like this:
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
As far as specific person, it specifically says he was rich, not prideful, so that seems to be the point. It follows that the specific reason was to teach that it's nearly impossible for rich people to get into heaven. After all, that's specifically what it says. The fact that he claims to have kept all of the commandments, again in my opinion, does not necessarily indicate that he was prideful; rather it gives Jesus the chance to tell him to sell everything he has and give it to the poor (that is specifically what it says), reinforcing the idea accumulating material wealth while others do without is not the way into heaven.
All my opinion and interpretation, of course, and you are certainly entitled to yours, but I don't agree that the answers given in Matthew and John are the same, at all. I think they are very different answers reflecting very different ideas.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 8:34 AM
[ in reply to Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems ] |
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That's my thing...lot of words and phrases added in there that aren't there.
One of the surprising things to me when I sat down and read the New Testament book for book, cover to cover was the simplicity and lack of details.
Jesus went here, he said this, then he left and went here...that's how a lot of it reads. Same thing for this little nugget about the rich guy. We know nothing about him except that he was apparently well off and curious about eternal life.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 8:41 AM
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Yep, there's a whole lot of interpretation and imposing biases in order to make it fit a narrative, in my very humble opinion. People can make it say whatever they want it to say.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 10:30 AM
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"'Everybody else is biased', in my very humble opinion." You have to admit, that's funny.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 11:58 AM
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If I was gonna be biased toward any particular religion it would definitely be Christianity.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 12:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems ] |
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Of course I am biased; I have never claimed otherwise. Just like you, my biases influence every opinion. The difference here is that I am taking the passage at hand for what it says: Jesus tells a rich guy who says he has kept all of the commandments to sell all of his possessions and give to the poor, and sums up the point with "It's almost impossible for rich people to get into heaven (like a camel through the eye of a needle)". I'm not overlaying that with any of my own speculation or biases to get something else out of it.
That is my admittedly biased opinion.
Message was edited by: Smiling Tiger®
Message was edited by: Smiling Tiger®
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 2:30 PM
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I have no doubt. It was still funny.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 3:30 PM
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
Nov 25, 2024, 4:16 PM
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When I say bias, I simply mean having a subjective preference, as in I am biased in favor of Clemson football.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 25, 2024, 4:48 PM
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Right. So you are biased in favor of what when it comes to religion?
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
Nov 25, 2024, 9:03 PM
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A God who creates and loves completely and uncondidtionally, incapable of anger or vengence. Also, the Christian oriented style of worship and morals I was raised with. All of that is my comfort zone, and I am biased in favor of things that reflect all of that.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
Nov 26, 2024, 9:00 AM
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I guess when I think of biases I'm thinking of things that we unconsciously believe. To your example, you were probably born and raised a Clemson fan, so you are naturally biased when it comes to them.
When it comes to religion, I would imagine we all, being born and raised in the United States, are going to tend to be biased towards Christianity.
I have no reason NOT to believe, is what I'm getting at. I have reason to be biased against Islam and Hinduism, but not Christianity.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
Nov 26, 2024, 1:15 PM
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Exactly. If we had been born in India, we'd probably be biased toward Indian culture, including Hinduism. If we were born and raised in Saudi Arabia... etc.
Our experiences and our environment create biases in all of us. Again, as it pertains to this thread, I have never ever believed, claimed, or implied that everybody else is biased but I am not. When I read the story in Matthew 19, my takeaway is that it means what it says; that for that rich man to get into heaven, he must keep all of the commandments and sell all of his possessions, give to the poor, and follow Jesus. I don't see how he means anything more or different.
Do my biases influence that opinion? Absolutely; it goes without saying. I am not, however, applying my biases to reinterpret it in a way that says something altogether different, which so happens to align with those biases.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 27, 2024, 9:01 AM
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I guess what I’m getting at is based on what you’ve said I don’t think you are biased when it comes to this discussion.
Yes everyone has biases, but they don’t affect your conclusion on everything.
Like I said, if I am biased in anyway on this subject it would be towards Christianity, not against it.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems
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Nov 27, 2024, 10:18 AM
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That's a fair point, and I don't necessarily disagree. It may be nitpicking, but I do believe my biases influence my opinions, no matter how objective I try to be, and I think that's true for everybody. I think it's unavoidable. How much it influences opinions and conclusions varies, of course, based on the particular issue at hand and each individual's life experience.
For instance, my life experience includes both a very involved upbringing in the Baptist church, but it also includes a significant move away from that church and many of it's teachings. Both are part of who I am, and I carry biases from both sides; I still see the world through the lens of both perspectives, and both create biases for me.
Like I said, I try to be as objetive as possible, but I don't know that I can keep all bias from creeping in.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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As for having no reason not to believe, in my case, based on my experience and
Nov 26, 2024, 1:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just my opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sure seems ] |
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environment, which caused me to question and not just accept, I became very biased against God and religion. At first I flat out rejected it all, but I think because of my Chistian/church upbringing, I spent the next 20 or so years trying to find a way to make sense of Christianty to make it work, somehow, some way. I gradually began to realize that any way I tried required suspending reason or ignoring major problems with what I had been taught. I still seek truth and understanding, and always will, but have come to accept that as humans there are some things we simply can't comprehend (thus know) with the rational mind, nor are we expected to. As it stands, I have come to a very good place where I embrace much of Christianity, but without embracing much of the dogma of the Southern Baptist church in which I was raised.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 25, 2024, 8:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: God doesn't grade on a curve. ] |
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"The idea that the NT doesn't call for a personal personal surrender to Jesus - that Paul made it up - seems to now rest on the apparent contradiction between Jesus's answer to Nic and to the Matthew guy."
I'm just spitballing here. We are not in a court of law. I'm not trying to win a debate, just stating the plain facts. If I wanted to make a case I could point to a lot more, including pretty much the entire Old Testament.
"In Matthew, a person asks "What must I do to be saved?" The guy is coming prideful rather than inquisitive, so Jesus gives him a literally correct answer: "What a person must DO is keep all the law." An inquisitive person would follow up with, "But no one has done that." This prideful person instead says, "I have done all that, since birth." Jesus knew "do not answer a fool according to his folly", so thought, "Okay, lets see how you do with Law #1." "Great. Give all you have to the poor and follow me." The guy, hearing from "Good Teacher" (only God can be), couldn't keep even #1. That was the point of the encounter."
What do you mean by "Law #1"? The first commandment is have no other gods. There is nothing about the poor in the ten commandments. Again, adding your own spin to it.
"BTW, I think you raise a good point about sheep and goats. It has nothing to do with what one intellectually believes. "You believe in God? Great, Satan does too, more than you." James."
Right, it's about what you do, according to Jesus, except for this one passage in John, the latest gospel and one of the latest books in the New Testament to be written, who's authorship is disputed, and that we know has at least one story added that was not original- the woman caught in adultery.
Does Jesus say anywhere in Matthew, Mark, or Luke anything about "saving faith"?
Here's another from the sermon on the mount:
Matthew 5:19
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 25, 2024, 10:59 AM
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A man who had kept all the law would keep #1, and do what God had just told him to do. Jesus had exposed his self righteousness. Seems to be a universal issue.
Not a debate? Heavens, I hope not. You are a sunday school teacher, son of a deacon, deacon, sat in judgement of prospective deacons, who has "read the bible cover to cover." You are the most sanctioned and educated guy in here, probably anywhere. No one denies that your decisions are likely yours eternally. I'm just pointing out where they actually come from. But golly yes, they are all yours.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 25, 2024, 11:56 AM
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"A man who had kept all the law would keep #1, and do what God had just told him to do."
What god just told him to do? Huh?
Jesus was not referred to as god in this moment in time. He was simply another Jewish rabbi going around preaching.
A man walks up, asks how to inherit eternal life, and is told to:
A. Keep the commandments
B. Give all he has to the poor
Anything else is your own personal spin from your starting premises
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 25, 2024, 8:59 AM
[ in reply to Re: God doesn't grade on a curve. ] |
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Also Mr. CUintulsa®, all those passages are post-Pauline.
Galatians 2:20 probably the earliest, and most likely to be straight from the hand of Paul.
"Peter", whoever the author actually was, affirms Paul as authoritative.
The gospel of John and Revelation both came much later, probably 20-30 years after Paul wrote Galatians.
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Clemson Icon [25412]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 25, 2024, 11:10 AM
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Just to be clear, your claim that "it is not biblical" is no longer correct. I mean, it's in the bible and all that. Not that this is a debate.
But you are correct that Peter affirmed Paul as correctly understanding what Peter knew firsthand, Paul's knowledge gained in part by previous visits with Peter, visits reported independently by Luke, Paul and Peter.
Glad we had this little chat, whatever it is.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: God doesn't grade on a curve.
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Nov 25, 2024, 11:52 AM
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The original question that I responded to was this:
"Have you received Jesus as your savior?”
Receiving Jesus as your savior is not biblical no unless you add and change words like you did above.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 22, 2024, 12:46 PM
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Among several other things he taught that are impractical and impossible to do…like turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, give your tunic also.
These also contradict the Old Testament law of “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 22, 2024, 12:54 PM
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I don't think they are impossible. Seem dang near it though.
And yes, it does contradict Old Testament, thus the story about the new covenant. In my opinion.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 22, 2024, 1:04 PM
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The “new covenant” excuse doesn’t work for me.
If we are under this new covenant that doesn’t require obedience, but simply faith in Jesus, why then are Christians so concerned with the behavior of not only theirselves, but others?
For example, evangelical Christians are hell bent on “turning America back to god”, whatever that means.
Why is this a concern if faith in Jesus is all that matters? What we do or don’t do as a nation doesn’t mean squat. Jesus is coming back, and you’re either in the book of life or you aren’t.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98413]
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Those set on turning America back to God should...
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Nov 22, 2024, 5:15 PM
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understand, America never had a heart turned to God. If it did we'd have formed a union which instituted moral behavior and not just civil behavior.
Those wishing America gets turned toward God should be sharing the Gospel and not condemning others for their lifestyles, behavior and attitudes. They should be trying to win souls to Jesus rather than expending their energies in politics.
If that steps on anyone's toes it's meant to. Christians have no business doing other than voting for what they believe is the lesser of two evils. Jesus commands us to preach the Gospel not preach democrat or republican or even independent. No excuse, at one time I was neck deep in politics. It's sickening to think how much effort I wasted rather than sharing the Good News that Jesus died, rose from the grave and now sits at the right hand of God making intercessions (lawyer talk for representing us) to the Father.
This nation is corrupt because there is corruption in all classes of citizenry. Top to bottom. I believe America will likely be all of part of the power which supports the Antichrist. It makes me glad I won't be around to see it.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: Those set on turning America back to God should...
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Nov 22, 2024, 6:48 PM
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I don’t think america is that bad though.
I know that I’m protected by our laws, and that if I need our government they will be there to protect me.
What more can you ask for?
This is why I think the idea of hell is absurd. We don’t deserve that. Overall we are pretty good.
Yea I might drink too much or lust after a nice set of ##### every now and then, but I don’t think I should burn for that.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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A God who truly loves us would never create a set of circumstances
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Nov 22, 2024, 11:49 PM
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that would result in any of us being tortured for eternity, nor would he allow it if he could prevent it. Unless he was helpless to prevent it.
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: A God who truly loves us would never create a set of circumstances
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Nov 23, 2024, 9:54 AM
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Idk if I agree with this 100%.
While I don't think eternal torture is necessary, I do kind of agree with the concept that there has to be the opportunity for rejection for there to be true love.
The old mail order bride argument...is it true love if she's forced to be your wife?
However, you wouldn't kill the woman and torture her for eternity if she chose not to be with you. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: A God who truly loves us would never create a set of circumstances
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Nov 23, 2024, 11:10 AM
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I embrace the idea that we have free will as a natural, required characteristic of the ability to love and be loved, and that therefore we must be allowed to experience the inevitable consequences of our choices.
What doesn't add up is a creator, a "designer" if you will, who made permanent tortue one of those consequences.
"I want to others to experience my love, and I want to be loved in return. Therefore, out of pure Godly love, I will create Man. Man will have one shot to get it right and accept my love. If they get it wrong, they will have to burn in hell for eternity, even though I love them beyond comprehension. I will not keep working with them until they get it right; no I want to have a cutoff at some point, and at that point, they they will either join me in heaven, or go straight to hell for eternity. As creator/designer, hell is not necessary; I could design it without hell, or make hell temporary, and as all-powerful creator, I could change it at any time. However, that's how I choose to do it; I want permanent misery and torture to be a possibility for those I love beyond comprehension."
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Rival Killer [2978]
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Re: A God who truly loves us would never create a set of circumstances
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Nov 25, 2024, 8:55 AM
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That idea seems to have evolved somewhere around 1500's if I'm not mistaken.
Did early christians even talk about hell?
Idk if I can recall anything from Paul's letters about it.
Jesus when mentioning it, like we've pointed out above, seemed to think those who did or didn't do certain things would go there.
I mean if we take Jesus plainly for what he said, anyone who gets angry is going there...
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98413]
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For those under the Blood of Christ the law is fulfilled.
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Nov 22, 2024, 5:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: Love your enemies. ] |
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It doesn't apply. For those who are not washed in His blood, you are under the law. I say you as plural in that sense.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98413]
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Excellent question!
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Nov 22, 2024, 5:02 PM
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I have found THE way to love those few in the past I've considered enemies. God has a way and it's wonderful and actually turns contempt (which is the precursor to hate) into love.
Matt 5:
"43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
So how do you love your enemies? Pray for them.
I've tested this method and it works though if some knucklehead knocks up your 16 year old daughter it takes a while and a lot of prayers. FACT, TAP (tied and proven)!
If you don't pray you'll remain up chitcreek without a paddle and have to bear the hate.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Even though I'm often unsuccessful, I've found a different way.
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Nov 22, 2024, 11:59 PM
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You do it by realizing that God has unconditional, never-ending love for each of us; that by his very nature, he is incapable of anything else, as he is that love, and that as his precious children, we are here to become the same.
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Clemson Conqueror [11380]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 22, 2024, 5:24 PM
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Nah. I don't have any enemies at the moment, but if I ever do they won't be loved. I don't have any though, so I am all good.
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Top TigerNet [31417]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 22, 2024, 6:15 PM
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That is a nice loophole, isn't it? Just don't have any enemies, and you're good to go!
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Game Day Hero [4227]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 25, 2024, 6:07 AM
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I think human nature makes it impossible to love your enemies. Mathew 15:5 makes it possible through Christ. “I am the vine, you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit. Apart from me you can do nothing. “. Removing ourselves from the hatred of an enemy and allowing Christ to love the person makes it possible. In other words, just be a branch and remain attached to the life given by the vine. Easy? Heck no! It’s a choice that we have to force ourselves to do. If we wait on the “feeling” we will never forgive much less love an enemy.
I can honestly say there’s only been one man I truly hated. I hated the man beyond description and I’m sure he didn’t like me either. This went on for years. One day I decided to be a branch. I had a long heart to heart talk with him. I can’t even describe the relief and peace that came from it. To this day we are friends!! All of that hatred is gone! I did not do it. I could not do it. The “vine” did it.
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Commissioner [1229]
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Re: Love your enemies.
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Nov 25, 2024, 10:32 AM
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Love one another as I have loved you, pretty much covers it for me.
Can I do that all the time? Not remotely. But what's the alternative? Screw that, I'm not loving anyone that doesn't love me? Are we not at least supposed to try?
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Clemson Conqueror [11380]
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Re: Love your enemies.
Nov 26, 2024, 1:18 PM
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Definitely. All Hitler needed was some love and a hug. That's something my fellow Jews should have thought about.
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Commissioner [1229]
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Re: Love your enemies.
Nov 26, 2024, 4:03 PM
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I realize that anytime this topic is exercised someone will bring up the most vile among us and ask "what about them? Do we love them?" Rarely is it posed that maybe if someone like Hitler loved his enemies (either real or imagined) he would not have felt the need to exterminate them. You could say the same about every aggressor in human history (including us). I believe that to be more the point.
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Orange Immortal [62149]
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Re: Love your enemies.
Nov 26, 2024, 5:10 PM
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While it's true that if Hitler had loved everyone there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place, I don't think that is the point at all. I think Jesus was specifically preaching that we are to love our enemies, just like we love our friends and family. We are to honestly, truly love everyone, just as God does.
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