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YOUR BALANCE
Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16
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Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 10:17 AM

I see the post trying to troll judge Keller on a statement he made going into the season after our sweet 16 run. So I thought I would go back and look at what happened.....

I hear a ton of people on the board cry about how terrible brownell is, but if you actually take a step back and put your lil emotions aside, you would see that we are very close to getting over the hump with brownell. If we had some luck go our way, like landing Zion or Shelton Mitchell not getting injured, we would be looking at 3 tourneys in 5 years, a sweet 16 run, beating unc on the road, abd beating 4 top 10 teams.

So what are your expectations? NCAA tourney every year? Top 4 in acc every year?

If being very close to 3 ncaa tourney in 5 years, makes brownell awful, then I feel bad for the next coach with those expectations.

2019 - we went 20-14 and 9-9 in conference. We were a bubble team and one could make an argument that we should have made the tourney. Zion was going to come to Clemson and fill in be try nicely as a grantham replacement. Unfortunately Duke bought him. Our assistant coach that tried to buy him was promptly fired. Shelton Mitchell was injured all year and he was not the same as he was the previous year.also, if I remember correctly, reed tried to do too much and his shot was inconsistent

2020: everybody knew going into this season that it was going to be a down year. We didn't have a great record and didn't make the tourney. Despite this, we had 3 exciting top 10 wins, and also beat UNC at home for the first time ever.

2021: shortened covid year. This was one of the best regular seasons in Clemson basketball history. We beat a school record, 8 NCAA tourney teams in the regular season. We unfortunately lost in the first round of the tourney to a good Rutgers team.

2022: it was a pretty abysmal year, and we performed well below expectations. We had a lot of injuries that contributed to that, but it still wasn't a good year.

2023: we need to make the tourney this year, or There is a chance BB will be fired, and I would be ok with that.

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Expectations are to be competitive in the ACC &


Jul 26, 2022, 10:30 AM

Regular NCAA tournament contender as a top 30-35 team in the nation, maybe even an NIT bid. A positive progression of getting a little better each season.

Recruiting good talent regularly, entertaining basketball ? for Clemson fans to enjoy.

I fully back Brad because he’s our coach but it’s time for change in my opinion in ‘23 and I think we should have made a change in ‘22.

Brad isn’t building a program with a vision to be great even one season in my opinion.

This has nothing to do with Judge, you know we tease you more than anything because you are a defender of Brad when maybe his record and work should speak for it’s self after 12 or so years.

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We keep getting better & better everyday, in every way!
“The only disability is a bad Attitude” Dabo Swinney!!
Let’s Go Tigers!


Re: Expectations are to be competitive in the ACC &


Jul 26, 2022, 11:17 AM


Regular NCAA tournament contender as a top 30-35 team in the nation, maybe even an NIT bid. A positive progression of getting a little better each season.

Recruiting good talent regularly, entertaining basketball ? for Clemson fans to enjoy.

I fully back Brad because he’s our coach but it’s time for change in my opinion in ‘23 and I think we should have made a change in ‘22.

Brad isn’t building a program with a vision to be great even one season in my opinion.

This has nothing to do with Judge, you know we tease you more than anything because you are a defender of Brad when maybe his record and work should speak for it’s self after 12 or so years.



Thank you for a good response.

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Expectations:


Jul 26, 2022, 11:25 AM [ in reply to Expectations are to be competitive in the ACC & ]

You asked so here are mine:

- Win the ACC. Heck, just get to the game (we've only been to the championship game 2x (62 & 08) since 1954.

- Easier goal: 2 wins in the ACC tournament. BB has never won 2 games in the ACC tournament. In the first game we've lost 7x (out of 12). Even worse, in 5 of those 7 loses, we were the higher ranked team.

- There has been 7 different champions since 2013 (GT, Duke, UVA, UNC, ND, Miami & FSU), so it's not like 1-2 teams are guarding entry.

- Better recruiting

- Get the NCAA Tournament 3 out of every 5 years. NIT on down years.

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 10:31 AM

So, your argument is that we almost met minimal standards in the 9th-12th years of his tenure so we should definitely keep him, but maybe not. Way to close that debate.

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 11:16 AM

viztiz said:

So, your argument is that we almost met minimal standards in the 9th-12th years of his tenure so we should definitely keep him, but maybe not. Way to close that debate.



I'm not sure if you can read, because your response is crazy. Here are my overall points.

- brownell has been very close to getting over the hump over the last 5 years

- we have made 2 out of the last 5 NCAA tournaments. We were very close to making 3 out of 5. 3 out of 5 NCAA tourney's is very good considering our history, level of investment, etc. that is not minimal standards.

- Brownell has to make the tourney next year/make a splash in recruiting/have some VERY good players returning, or he is most likely done at Clemson.

What are your expectations?

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 11:54 AM

It is not crazy at all. You're saying that 3 of 5 seasons in the tourney (which we didn't do) is very good and we should all be very happy with that. But you seem to acknowledge that 2 of 5 isn't quite good enough. So, the 3 of 5 (that he hasn't accomplished) should represent a benchmark where debate about his tenure should end. I would call that minimal for your purposes. But then you equivocate everything by saying if next year is bad, he'll probably be fired and you're fine with that. So, he's a great coach who only isn't regarded as such because circumstances beyond his control have held him back but if next year is bad fire him anyway. You're trying to play it both ways.

Next year is probably going to be terrible. The ACC was very bad last year and will likely be better top to bottom. We will be a markedly lesser team. We lack depth and our best player is out until November. But Brownell probably won't be fired since his new assistants got 2-year deals. That means the total cost of firing him is significantly higher next year than it would have been this year.

He is not a good coach. That was demonstrably with a few seasons. That this is lumbering on into season 13 is frankly pathetic. If I wasn't emotionally invested in Clemson basketball it would simply be a comedy of errors and would be great fun to point and laugh at.

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Goodness Gracious.


Jul 26, 2022, 12:55 PM [ in reply to Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16 ]

12 years in and Brad's MO is STILL "close to getting over the hump" so stick with him. That's what's got us 12 years of this instead of the 5-6 years that other underperforming coaches get until they're replaced. The irony is that his timing is impeccable when it comes to contract / make or break years as that's been when he's done just that little bit more to convince folks like you that he's actually capable of improving. Then we're stuck for 3 more years, then rinse and repeat.

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 5:21 PM [ in reply to Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16 ]


viztiz said:

So, your argument is that we almost met minimal standards in the 9th-12th years of his tenure so we should definitely keep him, but maybe not. Way to close that debate.



I'm not sure if you can read, because your response is crazy. Here are my overall points.

- brownell has been very close to getting over the hump over the last 5 years

- we have made 2 out of the last 5 NCAA tournaments. We were very close to making 3 out of 5. 3 out of 5 NCAA tourney's is very good considering our history, level of investment, etc. that is not minimal standards.

- Brownell has to make the tourney next year/make a splash in recruiting/have some VERY good players returning, or he is most likely done at Clemson.

What are your expectations?


Oh, and still waiting on making a splash in recruiting.
Sorry finishing in the top 20 for one class when two guys bolted quickly doesn't count.

Have had just one consensus top 75 player and top player in SC in the last 7 classes, and the next few classes show that the top talent in the state are looking at other programs including coots doesn't help things.

This program needs a few more difference makers and just high end 3 star talent is not going to work under Brad.

Again, my expectations are 3 NCAATs in 5 years. It's time to get the job done or get out, which should have been done after last season.

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if your're looking for closure.. i dont think Tnet is


Jul 26, 2022, 11:18 AM [ in reply to Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16 ]

the place for you

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Geville Tiger on Clemson football , "Dabo's only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


With some 'luck'? Do all the actual successful programs


Jul 26, 2022, 10:56 AM

rely on 'luck'?

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Re: With some 'luck'? Do all the actual successful programs


Jul 26, 2022, 10:58 AM

History may show (if you look hard enough) that actual successful basketball programs have relied on shoe companies buying players for them (Duke, Zona, Kansas) or not making kids go to class (UNC).

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Chicken and egg...


Jul 26, 2022, 11:15 AM

which came first... shoes or success?

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Re: Chicken and egg...


Jul 26, 2022, 1:27 PM

Very true. It's hard to say, isn't it?

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 10:58 AM

Regular NCAA participation with an occasional top 20 year.

The feeling that we are building towards something in the years when we are not as successful.

We are mediocre and not exciting.

Yes, we are not horrible.

It's mostly lack of talent no matter what anyone says, but the recent inability or unwillingness to develop players is an issue for me as a fan.

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 1:31 PM

castaway® said:

Regular NCAA participation with an occasional top 20 year.

The feeling that we are building towards something in the years when we are not as successful.

We are mediocre and not exciting.

Yes, we are not horrible.

It's mostly lack of talent no matter what anyone says, but the recent inability or unwillingness to develop players is an issue for me as a fan.



How do you define "regular participation"

Also what do you mean, "inability or unwillingness to develop players"? I've seen a ton of players, like chase hunter, pj ball, and Hunter Tyson that have improved greatly year to year.

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 11:01 AM

People have to stop bragging on the win in Chapel Hill. Look, I get the historical significance. But, you cannot seriously look at that one game and use it as a measure of success.

We won a road game, in overtime, against a team that finished 6-14 in the conference. That team lost 6 conference home games that season.

If you take "UNC" out of the sentence, it's a non-story. Again - historically significant, but not a measure of improvement. Brownell just happened to be the sitting coach at the time of one of UNC's worst teams in decades...and still needed overtime.

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 4:24 PM



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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 11:08 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkBHwY5xVCc

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 11:21 AM

I’m not a big basketball guru by any stretch but one of the reasons I am not is the level at which our basketball team recruits and plays. So we get 20 wins but is that really that great with all the sub par teams we play starting the season.

If we do make it to the tourney how far does anyone expect us to make it. Got a good feeling I know what a majority of the answers will be.
The NIT imo is a waste. So what if you win it what does that do for your program. It is a glorified 2nd rate tourney for teams that cannot make it into the main event.

I would like to see a change but I am not sure a change would make much difference for the culture of what is Clemson basketball.

To answer your ? I have come to have zero expectations when it comes to basketball because in the end you leave disappointed. Until we can recruit top talent we will be who we have been which is an average basketball program.

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MEG


Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 11:33 AM

We need to make the tournament more. We need to recruit better of course. I like CBB and I like Clemson basketball, but it seems when Hall is gone, we will be beliow average for a few years. JMO. Time will tell. On the ither hand, Chauncy Gibson and Asa Thomas look like they will develop into nice player once they get stronger and mature. Godfey may be a stud too. Hooefully we get 2 more years with Hall. That team in his last year might be pretty solid if everyone sticks around.

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 12:07 PM

Trolling Judge....LMAO! He's the biggest troll on Tnet. Thanks for pointing out how much our basketball team has underachieved the last 4 years.

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Clemson doesn't care about basketball....as evidenced by Brown-L getting 14 years.


Goodgawdawmighty.


Jul 26, 2022, 12:10 PM

There is only one way to characterize the current state of Clemson basketball, and the entire tenure under Brownell: With a few very short-lived exceptions, it has been a very frustrating, disappointing exercise in relative mediocrity. Period. Anything else is a huge stinking pile of BS.

More power to anyone who is fine with that, or is so blinded by loyalty that they can't face the reality. Personally, I'd like to see Clemson compete a a little higher level, and I believe we can without selling our souls.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Goodgawdawmighty.


Jul 26, 2022, 1:20 PM


There is only one way to characterize the current state of Clemson basketball, and the entire tenure under Brownell: With a few very short-lived exceptions, it has been a very frustrating, disappointing exercise in relative mediocrity. Period. Anything else is a huge stinking pile of BS.

More power to anyone who is fine with that, or is so blinded by loyalty that they can't face the reality. Personally, I'd like to see Clemson compete a a little higher level, and I believe we can without selling our souls.



If you read my post all the way through, you would know I'm not fine with it. We need to get better and more consistent. We haven't been that bad, and we actually have been right there quite a few different times recently and haven't been able to get over the hump.

Again, we've made 2 out of the 5 NCAA tournaments. We were very close to getting into a third.

Did you know here are only 6 other ACC teams that have been in 3 or more out of the last 5 NCAA tourneys?

Duke has only been in 3 as has UVA.

There is not a single ACC tourney team that has been in the last 5 tourneys.

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"We haven't been that bad, and we actually have been right


Jul 26, 2022, 1:45 PM

there quite a few different times recently and haven't been able to get over the hump."

There you have it, "not that bad". We are very consistently "not that bad". I'm glad you understand that. I hope you also understand that we are not that good, either. Brownell has head coach for 47 years now, and it's consistently been "not that bad/not that good" on his watch. Sorry, but nothing in your post is the least bit comforting or inspiring for me. Way past time for a fix for this basketball program, and I'm sick of rationalizing and attempts to ease the pain of what has turned into a head-scrating, frustrating continuation of mediocrity.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


While I might have phrased things a bit differently...


Jul 26, 2022, 1:35 PM [ in reply to Goodgawdawmighty. ]

this pretty much aligns with my sentiments.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


History Lesson: Brad has yet to make B2B NCAAT appearances


Jul 26, 2022, 12:34 PM

Both Barnes and Purnell went to 3 straight. Heck even Cliff Ellis went B2B and 3 out of 4.

Barnes did it in 4 seasons, OP in 7, and here we are headed into year 13 with Brad.

Clemson winning %'s and NCAAT appearances below:

Brad Brownell(2011-present) - 56.8% (3 NCAAT)
Oliver Purnell(2004-2010) - 61.1% (3 NCAAT in a row)
Larry Shyatt(1999-2003) - 45.5% (0 NCAAT)
Rick Barnes(1995-1998) - 60.7% (3 NCAAT in a row)
Cliff Ellis(1984-1994) - 58.1% (3 NCAAT in 4 years)

Also, I believe the thread you referenced is pointing out the hypocrisy of their excuses over the past few seasons.

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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


This can't be right. According to those numbers Brad has a


Jul 26, 2022, 1:02 PM

worse record than every coach since the 1980's not named Larry Shyatt, and yet he's had the longest tenure. Something doesn't add up here.

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Re: This can't be right. According to those numbers Brad has a


Jul 26, 2022, 1:29 PM

Having a perennial top 5 football program (let's not talk about last year) has done wonders to provide a layer of security for our basketball coach over the past 6-8 years, in my opinion.

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Re: This can't be right. According to those numbers Brad has a


Jul 26, 2022, 1:36 PM

If you mean we have directed as much funding as possible away from the basketball program then you sir are correct. In all fairness the ROI for a $ spent on football is much greater than a $ spent on basketball so i can certainly see the logic.

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Re: This can't be right. According to those numbers Brad has a


Jul 26, 2022, 1:40 PM

Show me where basketball spending has been reduced.

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Re: This can't be right. According to those numbers Brad has a


Jul 26, 2022, 3:06 PM [ in reply to Re: This can't be right. According to those numbers Brad has a ]

If you want something that defies logic you should check out the ROI on our soccer program. Yikes! Why do we even bother.

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Re: History Lesson: Brad has yet to make B2B NCAAT appearances


Jul 26, 2022, 1:41 PM [ in reply to History Lesson: Brad has yet to make B2B NCAAT appearances ]

Shyatt needed more time.

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Outside of Kellers nonsense, this is the worst bball take ive seen yet


Jul 26, 2022, 1:21 PM

Good grief what an absolute coot post.

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They are the non-alumns that fail to realize how much


Jul 26, 2022, 1:29 PM

losing KJ early set us back. ?

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 1:34 PM

Most posters on this site could not function outside of their feels...

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"a good Rutgers team" LOL.***


Jul 26, 2022, 1:40 PM



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To me the biggest thing is a lack of identity in the program


Jul 26, 2022, 1:41 PM

What is the Clemson basketball brand? You could answer that with Ellis, Barnes, and OP. Well, and sadly with Shyatt too, but I digress.

I have never seen a reliable product that I could identify year-to-year under BB.

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You misspelled "good coaching"***


Jul 26, 2022, 1:49 PM

null





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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 3:13 PM


I see the post trying to troll judge Keller on a statement he made going into the season after our sweet 16 run. So I thought I would go back and look at what happened.....

I hear a ton of people on the board cry about how terrible brownell is, but if you actually take a step back and put your lil emotions aside, you would see that we are very close to getting over the hump with brownell. If we had some luck go our way, like landing Zion or Shelton Mitchell not getting injured, we would be looking at 3 tourneys in 5 years, a sweet 16 run, beating unc on the road, abd beating 4 top 10 teams.

So what are your expectations? NCAA tourney every year? Top 4 in acc every year?

If being very close to 3 ncaa tourney in 5 years, makes brownell awful, then I feel bad for the next coach with those expectations.

2019 - we went 20-14 and 9-9 in conference. We were a bubble team and one could make an argument that we should have made the tourney. Zion was going to come to Clemson and fill in be try nicely as a grantham replacement. Unfortunately Duke bought him. Our assistant coach that tried to buy him was promptly fired. Shelton Mitchell was injured all year and he was not the same as he was the previous year.also, if I remember correctly, reed tried to do too much and his shot was inconsistent

2020: everybody knew going into this season that it was going to be a down year. We didn't have a great record and didn't make the tourney. Despite this, we had 3 exciting top 10 wins, and also beat UNC at home for the first time ever.

2021: shortened covid year. This was one of the best regular seasons in Clemson basketball history. We beat a school record, 8 NCAA tourney teams in the regular season. We unfortunately lost in the first round of the tourney to a good Rutgers team.

2022: it was a pretty abysmal year, and we performed well below expectations. We had a lot of injuries that contributed to that, but it still wasn't a good year.

2023: we need to make the tourney this year, or There is a chance BB will be fired, and I would be ok with that.


Lol.

There was no proof that Steve Smith was trying to buy Zion. It was all gym talk to bluff that Clemson had a chance..

When is Brad going to two NCAATs in a row? There is no consistent program unless he can go three times in a span period. Next...

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Re: Let's take a look at our 4 years after the sweet 16


Jul 26, 2022, 3:21 PM

One good barometer would be a regular season ranking or finish that is inline with the rank of Coach Brownell’s compensation.

Hope this is the year.

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YOUR assessment of year 12...


Jul 26, 2022, 4:32 PM

"it was a pretty abysmal year, and we performed well below expectations."

Serious question....if he and his team can't meet expectations in Year 12(your own words), with no historical evidence that he can consistently meet/exceed expectations, why would you think we're "close to getting over the hump with brownell"?

I doubt I'll get an honest answer because that would mean you'd have to "take a step back and put your lil emotions aside".

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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


grindr >>> just swipe that way sweetie.***


Jul 26, 2022, 5:13 PM



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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


2 NCAAT in 11 years


Jul 26, 2022, 5:51 PM

That's what Brad's done. He's also finished 8th or worse in the ACC in 6 of the last 8 years. How bout this for expectations: Finish in the top half of the conference 3 out of 4 years, make the tournament half the time, and finish in the top 25% of the acc and win an NCAAT game 1 out of 4 years. Seems pretty reasonable. Meeting those goals would indicate a healthy program that is consistently recruiting and developing guys and has the potential to be really good in a given year.

So let's look at how Brad stacks up to that criteria after 12 years as HC:

1) Finish in top half of ACC (better than 8th) 75% of time: Fail. Brad's done it 25% of the time.
2) Make the NCAAT 50% of the time: Fail. He's done it 22% of the time.
3) Finish in the top 25% of the acc 25% of the time: Fail. He's done it 8% of the time.
4) Win an NCAAT game 25% of the time: Fail. 8% again.

BTW, saying that "only" 6 ACC teams have made the NCAAT in 3 of the last 5 years isn't really compelling defense for Brad's inability to make the dance more often. You're looking at one 5-year period. Fact is, Brad hasn't made the NCAAT 3 times in any 5-year period. I'd be interested to know how many ACC schools have made the NCAAT 3 times in 5 years at any point in the last 12 seasons. Or how about how many ACC teams have made the NCAAT 50% of the time over the last 12 years.

Some might say I'm setting unrealistic expectations. To me, if you aren't consistently in the top half of the conference, you're not really competitive.

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