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Tiger Spirit [9790]
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A Word To My Spirit
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Nov 6, 2024, 11:05 AM
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I did not vote yesterday due to a deep conviction in my heart. I voted twice for Donald Trump in the past and I had a huge adoration for the man. However, I serve and worship a jealous God and He will not allow me to place any man upon a throne above Him. As I was preparing my mind and heart to vote, I received a word in my heart and spirit.
This is the word I received...
I will make them a new king since they do not know Me, says The Lord. This is a warning to the children of The Lord. Place not your faith in man who is but a mere vapor in the wind, but increase in The Lord and repent of your sins.
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Oculus Spirit [40054]
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you're fn weird dude
Nov 6, 2024, 11:11 AM
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maybe don't post anymore.
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Tiger Spirit [9790]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 6, 2024, 10:41 PM
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maybe don't post anymore.
As weird as it may sound, God instructed Lott not to look back at Sodom and Gomorrah while they burned. Something as simple as don't look back at the two burning cities, and do not vote are similar in that in normal context doing so would cause no harm to anyone. However, I'm a big believer that you should listen to God and obey Him regardless of the circumstances. Many Christians are celebrating that Trump is the savior of America, but little do they know that Trump may end up being a judgment against America. As a nation, we certainly deserve judgment.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 7, 2024, 9:10 AM
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I don’t mean to offend anyone with this. This is just an observation, some posters take this stuff as offensive, but we are all just trying to get at the truth right?
The idea that America will be judged by God and that God judges nations doesn’t really jive with the Bible as a whole. In the Old Testament God chose the Israelites and promised to protect them and make them prosper (Prosperity gospel anyone?) and if they didn’t obey, he punished them. Same for their enemies. If they mess with Israel, they went down and if they lived in sin, they went down.
Now that Jesus has come, God is not looking over his people, but rather offering salvation through one man and one religion…either you believe or you don’t.
This kind of goes along with what CUintulsa® is trolling me about. Evangelicals for the most part seem to be a patriotic bunch. However, they also want American to be a Christian nation. To honor “God” and for our laws to reflect the Bible. This would seem to go against the American ideal of freedom of religion.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
Nov 7, 2024, 10:51 PM
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A couple of interesting points in there. I'd like to see some board discussion on these.
1) Folk's opinions on what, other than eliminating the need for perpetual sacrifice, did Jesus change about God's relationship with man? For instance, God says he used Assyria to punish Israel. Is he using Russia to punish Ukraine? Or is that, and maybe other OT historical interpretation, moot with Jesus's D&R?
2) How would America look if it WERE a Christian Nation? Would everyone be required to be Baptist, or Catholic, etc.? I think the separation of Church and state was more about the varied Christian denominations at the time of the nation's founding, rather than tolerance for entirely different religions, which were largely not present on the continent (with apologies to Native American beliefs). What exactly constitutes a 'Christian Nation', in folk's opinions?
I think either of those topics would be very interesting.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 1:02 AM
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Whether a discussion could take place would depend, I think, on whether a common starting point could be established. As to your two topics:
1. The 'for instance' treats Israel and Ukraine as two countries of same definition. To discuss your question, I think we have to agree - at least for the discussion - that they are not the same. Israel is a body of decedents of Abraham, exists wherever they are, and exists for the purpose of producing the Messiah. From there we can discuss why God would relate differently with Israel than any other group of people. That would then inform what Jesus's sacrifice meant for Israel and for each of us. Previous discussions about this have meandered in and out of whether God did or said anything to Abraham and his decedents. That is a fair question, too, but it's a separate one. Can we start from the above definition of "Israel"?
2. I know of no common definition of 'Christian nation', or of any proposal for Federal or Constitutional changes to form whatever that is. It seems to be a dog whistle for non Christians demonizing Christians for thinking the bible is a valid source of personal values. No one defines it, no one points to a proposal for it, yet they say Christians want it, like Nazis saying Jews wanted this or that.
A person like myself might say the US was founded by people following a then radical definition of God/Truth/State, one that had it's roots in Christianity. Someone hears me say that, and starts a debate about freedom of religion, the Constitution, "Christian Nation", things not even implied by my comment. Without knowing what a Christian nation is supposed to be, and how that is being proposed, what exactly am I being asked to defend?
Bigotry is circular logic:
Short people rape women.
Why do you think that?
See that short person there? He probably raped somebody.
Christian nationalists are bad.
Why do you think that?
See that Christian there? The bible is his source of values when he votes.
That's what Christian nationalists are?
Yes.
Do we really want to be a part of that?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
Nov 8, 2024, 2:18 AM
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>Israel is a body of decedents of Abraham, exists wherever they are, exists whether they have land or not, and exists for the purpose of producing the Messiah.
Yes, I think that is a good definition of Israel. I was originally thinking in terms of a geographic area, but I think your definition is more accurate...Israel is a 'nation', where ever they are at. So they are more 'a people' than a bounded area.
>I know of no proposal that the US be a 'Christian nation'
Nor do I, but it is a term I have heard tossed around from time to time. I've never really thought about it in depth, and so I'm just curious what that might entail. As I mentioned in another post, Armenia was an official 'Christian state' from 301 AD...even before Constantine declared it to be the religion of the Roman Empire. But I'm not sure what all that meant back then. I'm not sure if Armenia still has that status, but it is still almost 97% Christian. And even today, I don't know what that means, if anything, outside of the church walls.
>It seems to be a dog whistle...
I don't mean it in that way. I've just never thought about what that MIGHT look like, because I don't consider America to be one in any way right now. We mostly all share a Western Christian tradition, but that's about it I think. And we go to great lengths to separate church from state for the most part. Even Muslims and Jews can't complain about having "In God We Trust" on coins and license tags, as long as one stays away from the details, lol.
On the other side of the world, though, Iran has a state religion but it is also a republic. Which kind of surprises me. From the wiki...
"Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and the Sunni branch of Islam are officially recognised by the government and have reserved seats in the Parliament. Iran is home to the largest Jewish community in the Muslim World and the Middle East, outside of Israel."
So while they are a state religion, they apparently do not outlaw other religions. Whether other religions having reserved seats in their parliament has any practical value though, or if it is just for show, I don't know. I suppose everyone MUST hear the Koran read everyday whether they like it or not, but I don't know what other day-to-day impacts having a state religion has.
And yes, it may just be a 'fear term.' I'm just curious if anyone on the board has the opinion that we should have a state religion, and how it might differ from America today.
>Tell me what...
Haha. Well, that's just it. I really have no idea on any of your very good questions. I guess I'm more asking for someone who HAS defined the term Christian Nation for themselves (or perhaps other terms) to share their vision, rather than create such a vision from scratch. I find it interesting because I've never thought about it in depth, really.
For instance, if we WERE a Christian Nation, would we reserve seats in our Congress for minority religions, or not? Would we broadcast the Bible everyday, like the Muslims do with the Koran? It's just such a foreign concept to us, it seems, that it's interesting how other countries handle it.
I don't think Israel is a declared state religion, but with a population of about 75% Jewish it is sort of a defacto situation. There, you see things like elevators which run all day, up and down, on the Sabbath, so no one has to do 'work' by pressing a button. You just step in the elevator when it comes, and step off when it stops at your floor. That's not really an enforced government mandate that I know of, but it is a curious cultural phenomenon based on their interpretation of the Law of Moses.
That is, I don't think you break a law by pushing buttons on Saturday (their Sabbath) but you certainly get a lot of unapproving looks. And it makes we wonder if they DO have modern laws more explicitly based on Moses's Law.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 9:21 AM
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Doesn’t the Bible say “Israel” will be saved in the end? So by this definition anyone who is a descendent of Abraham will be saved? Something seems awful unfair about that. But I guess I’m just not starting with the right premise.
The original poster in this thread said that America would be and should be judged by God. That would seem to imply that he believes America as a nation should follow God and because he’s a Christian, I assume he means the Bible.
It was a response. Certainly not a dog whistle. I’m going by what I hear from Christians themselves.
Also I’ve posted one survey that claimed right at 80% of Republican evangelicals in this country want America to be declared a Christian nation. What that looks like and what all that entails I don’t know.
Are you being facetious about the elevators? It not that is wild. But hey, they are just doing what god told them to do, or not to do.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 10:57 AM
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>Doesn’t the Bible say “Israel” will be saved in the end?
Well, it says a couple of things, depending on whether you're in the OT or the NT. I haven't gotten there yet, but Rev 22 says all who believe in Christ will have eternal life. I don't think that's quite the same as 'saved' and it's not just an arbitrary term. It's in direct contrast to those who will go to the 'second', or permanent, death:
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city [New Jerusalem.]
In the OT, it depends on the prophet. Micah says at the End has the world coming together to worship Yahweh, or whoever they wish.
Micah 4:1 In the last days... 4:5 All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.
Daniel says believers in Yahweh will get an inheritance, which I take to be eternal life.
Daniel 12:13 13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
>Are you being facetious about the elevators? It not that is wild.
No, that's absolutely true. It's kind of the same concept as an escalator. They also cook double meals on Friday so that no one has to cook on Saturday. I only found that out because I was disappointed that the hotel we stayed at only served cold 'continental' breakfasts on Saturday. I was hoping to get a hot omelet, but I got fruit and a pastry instead, lol. Cooking=work.
There was also a guy we met who was working on a phone that somehow dialed itself, so that one wouldn't have to push buttons. As I've said, people believe what they believe, and so they will go to incredible lengths to try and obey God as they hear him. This guy really considered it a borderline sin to use the phone on Saturday...because he was working by pushing buttons and God didn't want that. He wasn't being facetious, either.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 9:51 AM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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There is a politics board. A guy can get blasted off the other boards for bringing politics onto them. Here is why this board as well should be free of it:
Lets be honest about this: You guys wouldn't even know to talk about this if it weren't for MSNBC and CNN. You didn't hear the word "tossed around from time to time". You heard it from them and from a troll who wanted to take you down into that bigoted hole. You can disguise it as intellectual inquiry, but it's politics pure and clear, and bigotry to boot. Some let such people do their thinking for them, but it should be beneath the rest of us.
If you want to know why Christians believe or propose a known thing, fine, ask it here. But if you and them want to talk about what Maddow wants you to talk about, got to the politics board and do it. I promise you, the guys over there will tell you all about it. The only people who can define that word for you are the politicos using it. They won't be shy. Go ask them.
Yes, that should probably be said to the OP as well. I didn't say it, and I responded (though shouldn't have), because I read it as his personal view of why he did or didn't vote. That is not politics, but given the trollish behavior it risked and got, even that shouldn't be done here.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 11:16 AM
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>Lets be honest about this: You guys wouldn't even know to talk about this if it weren't for MSNBC and CNN. You didn't hear the word "tossed around from time to time"
I heard it right here, among the broad variety of videos I watch. 30:00 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caIgnjwCDBI
And here.
https://christcc.com/media/48b864k/historically-we-are-a-christian-nation
So,"tossed around from time to time." I'm not saying it's a majority opinion. In fact, I even said that I presume most of America does not consider the country a Christian nation. But it is an opinion, at least of these two pastors, and their flocks I imagine, and so I'm interested in what all that entails.
I know in some part what they think because I watched their videos. My intellectual inquiry (and it's not a disguise) is what people on this board might think, since it is a religion discussion board.
>If you want to know why Christians believe or propose a known thing, fine, ask it here.
That's exactly what I asked. I'm asking the OP, and anyone else interested to reply, if they prescribe to these two pastor's idea of a Christian nation, or another similar idea.
If we're not going to discuss religious ideas here, then what are we doing on this board?
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 12:31 PM
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0We need to slow down. I think you are conflating two entirely different things.
Your question about "Christian nation" came from a post that said "Christians want America to be a Christian nation." Want to be. To become. We know that is what the media calls Christian Nationalism, a term they made up and use with circular reasoning to demonize Christians. That post showed irritation that Christians's values have a biblical source, because values inform voting. Somehow, that is part of "Christian Nation", an idea with no rationality at all.
There is a separate subject, the historical one. I said in my response to you that I do believe our founders had a God/Truth/State motivation for the founding, a philosophy that had a Christian basis. Simple history. We can agree or disagree about that, but that is what it is.
The first subject is not the second one. At all. I hold the second one, and have no idea what the first one is, except that Maddow et al talk of little else. There is a current, nonsensical, political accusation, and a different, long standing, historical proposal. I clearly say this to you, and you respond by - and if it weren't you I would say 'and I am not making this up' - linking to the historical one.
You seem to have let some motivation - politics, ideology, I don't know - cloud your usual discernment. "Christians want America to be a Christian nation" is an idea no one can define or identify in practice. "America was founded on Christian philosophy" is a legit idea with many authoritative proponents. They do not mean the same thing, at all. A poster dog whistled the first one, you responded, and justified doing so by linking the second.
The opportunity to distance oneself from a bigoted idea doesn't come repeatedly. I'd take the one being offered.
Edit: I have nothing against you personally. I will point out that the left just lost an election because women, blacks and hispanics got tired of being accused of things they are not. The left didn't intend to make those accusations, but that is what condescension is. What is the left side of the media doing today? Doubling down on the condescension. I'm telling you that that is what this tread is about, condescension masquerading as a made-up term, 'Christian nationalism'. I'm not saying you were thinking that when you started, but you were pulled into it. You can recognize it or stay with it.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
Nov 8, 2024, 2:02 PM
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>Your question about "Christian nation" came from a post that said "Christians want America to be a Christian nation." Want to be. To become.
Well, in part. The video I linked has Dr. Jeffress saying, @ 31:00, "America was founded as a Christian Nation." Not wants to be. Is.
So it's a term I first heard not in the national media, but in my religious studies. When I saw it again in the post, that merely reminded me of it. I don't happen to agree with Dr. Jeffress, and I don't propose that he represents the majority of Christians. But he gave his opinion in his video, and I'm asking for other opinions on this board.
>Christians values have a biblical source, because values inform voting.
I don't disagree, but I see that as unavoidable, and not a problem at all. When I was an Atheist, I still had Christian values. Now that I'm an Agnostic, I still have Christian values. I try to be kind to others. I try to be respectful. All the values I learned in my Christian youth, I still adhere to, or try to. They are ingrained in me.
>and have no idea what the first one is
Nor do I.
>"Christians want American to be a Christian nation" is an idea no one can define or identify in practice.
Agreed. It's just a term. But it's a term I've linked pastors using. They used it for a reason. They've partially explained their reasons. I don't know what it means to other people, which is why I'm asking. I'm simply giving everyone a chance to speak for, and define it, themselves. I don't propose Dr. Jeffress speaks for you any more than you speak for him, both as Christians.
He seems to have no problem touting it. You seem to dislike it. Fair enough. Two people, two opinions.
>I'm telling you that that is what this tread is about, condescension masquerading as a made-up term, 'Christian nationalism'.
That may be, and if I've misjudged the situation and condescended by asking questions, that was certainly not my intent. You, and others, have my apology.
My interest is in how people's beliefs overtly, or subtly, affect the way they govern themselves. Call it by any term, or by no term. That's what caught my attention in this post, and why I responded with questions.
We have examples of explicit religious states, and we see how their religions play out in their governance. I don't see that same claim in America, and my simple question was, and is, if we operated the US government based on religion, as Iran, and to some degree Israel does, what might that look like? And as a secondary consideration, how much can we separate our historical culture from our dispassionate objectivity?
Those questions are not meant to be political, or offensive, at all. They're meant to give me some insight into how the human mind, and perhaps God, works. But I understand hot buttons. I have a few myself. Mrs. Fordt knows almost all of them. So I'll try to phrase my questions in other ways if that particular term is too charged. If I should slip up from time to time please bear with me. I'm only searching for answers, not trying to agitate.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 3:07 PM
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>"Christians want American to be a Christian nation" is an idea no one can define or identify in practice.
Agreed. It's just a term. But it's a term I've linked pastors using. They used it for a reason. They've partially explained their reasons. I don't know what it means to other people, which is why I'm asking. I'm simply giving everyone a chance to speak for, and define it, themselves. I don't propose Dr. Jeffress speaks for you any more than you speak for him, both as Christians.
And that's one of the main reasons I posted the Pew article. It addresses exactly that question (What is meant by "Christian Nation"?).
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 3:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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Exactly. Where are we not communicating? There are two proposals you are conflating:
1. "Christian Nationalists" want to make America a Christian nation. To make.
2. The historical fact of the motivating philosophy of the founders, that their view of God/Truth/State had a Christian basis. Was. Still is.
#2 has nothing to do with #1. #2 has been around for 200 years, with no accusations of "Christian Nationalism".
When you then link a reference to support your idea of the Christian nationalism you ask about, you link people referring to #2. You have no support for #1. Others here have offered only surveys, people asking a question no one is known to be thinking about, and the details even show no support for church in politics.
You are following others down a dark road, and the above seems to show you wont see it.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 4:22 PM
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Ok, this is helping. Perhaps I'm not seeing the full distinction you are making.
What is the distinction between a Christian Nation, and a nation formed on Christian values?
If 67% of the nation is Christian already, and those people have their values baked-in because of their history and culture, aren't we sort of a defacto Christian Nation already? And why is that so bad? I don't understand the aversion to the term. As I said, even as an Agnostic I have Christian values.
To me one type clear distinction might be, "I'm charitable because that's how I was raised" (based on the values taught to me as a child by my parents)
vs.
I' charitable because the Bible (and the law) tells me I have to be. (if US law was based on Biblical text)
But that's how I see a distinction. How do you see it?
>You are following others down a dark road, and the above seems to show you won't see it.
Again, I just don't see the darkness here. Perhaps you can elaborate because it's going completely over my head. People have opinions. That's what I'm looking for. I'm not judging anyone, I'm asking what they think, and why.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 4:52 PM
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Everybody has opinions, yes. Some people have accusations.
I think the distinction you ask about is in a Christian's view of the individual. If you would enjoy a discussion about this we can have one, but the short answer is that the Enlightenment view of the individual - can shorten that here to "We hold these truths .." - is 180 degrees opposite of the Marxist view. It is no accident that Marxism proposes atheism as an official state position, because without it people start asking inconvenient question about the nature of the individual and how that relates to the state. That battle is taking place in American politics today.
A Christian will see some of that and say, "I can't go down that road, because it takes away individual identity."
"Really, what makes you say that?"
"Because Truth exists independent of mankind or state. Each individual has to have the liberty to pursue that Truth."
"Ah, you want a Christian nation."
No, that was not said. It was actually something Adams or Washington might say. There are some posts in this thread that take issue with a person using his values in his voting, if those values have a spiritual basis. You heard that right: I can now state my voting position in terms used by the Founders, and someone will say I shouldn't use my values in assessing my vote. That is a very dangerous road to start down. If you love history, you know where that ends.
Don't think accusations are not being made.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 5:46 PM
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>That battle is taking place in American politics today.
>Don't think accusations are not being made.
A clear enough answer. I'm not on anybody's side so I don't always hear the whistles, shots-across-the-bow, or gunfire. My question are for my own understanding and curiosity, and nothing more.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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PS: Did not mean to imply that you were condescending.
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Nov 8, 2024, 6:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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Far from it. I was addressing the modern practice of demonizing people by group. The left media who Wednesday morning explained the election by saying, "They don't get it" (over half the population is not intelligent enough to understand them) are the ones banging the "Christian Nationalist" drum.
As that applies to this thread, the accusation re 'Christian Nationalist' is pure condescension. This supposed movement has no goals, no leadership, no proposed end result, no known members and no strategy. Yet a drinking game scored by how many times the left media use the term would have a room passed out by 8:00. And then with a straight face they say Antifa isnt an organization.
Bigotry when applied toward Christians is not a secular sin in the US. That is not me foreshadowing persecution here: we'll see where it goes. I'm just pointing out what is. The culture okays it, people go along with it. Fine. It's nothing we were not warned about.
So, no, I wasnt saying you personally were the one doing it. I hold out hopes of salvageability for you. 
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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I agree 100%; the left tries to conflate pretty much all Christians, especially
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Nov 8, 2024, 3:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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evangelicals, with "Christian Nationalists". Particularly left-leaning media. It's part of the efforts by both "sides" to equate the whole with the most extreme elements.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
Nov 9, 2024, 8:32 AM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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Thanks for letting us know there is a politics board. So enlightening.
Not like this thread has any religious element to it.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 10:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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> Folk's opinions on what, other than eliminating the need for perpetual sacrifice, did Jesus change about God's relationship with man? For instance, God says he used Assyria to punish Israel. Is he using Russia to punish Ukraine? Or is that, and maybe other OT historical interpretation, moot with Jesus's D&R?
So much could be said in 3 minutes that will take 50 posts to write back and forth, but that's fine. IE, "punish", and what that means and for what purpose. It is an angry person getting his satisfaction? Or is it a loving person guiding a loved one back? If the latter, has God's methods changed after Jesus?
When we rebelled in Eden, we chose what we got, a world where 'by the sweat of your brow you will earn your bread'. We judge ourselves and each other on how well we do that, and we think that process is bringing us joy. We defend it. That much, we know.
So, it seems to me that God did not have anyone overrun Israel, or any of us. He did promise to protect Israel if they stayed close to Him, as He did us in Eden, and He even defined for Israel how to do that. When they didn't, he allowed, or caused, kings in other countries to go against them. Israel could have won those battles. They didn't. God probably knew they wouldn't. But it seems to me they were choosing to live and die by their own merits, not by faith in God, same as we all chose in Eden. That story with Israel is told for us to see the world we have been living in since Eden. We think we are Babel, a great city with great accomplishments. Posters here tell us how great we are doing. Israel was periodically deluded, and so are we.
Does God make my life easier because I am a follower of Jesus? There are two opposite but true answers to that:
- No. I get the same illnesses everyone else does. I could die of one tomorrow. Extrapolate from there.
- Yes. Our daughter came within a smidgen of dying when she was 6 weeks old. That was a long night. When the doc came in at 4:00 AM to tell us she would live, we got up and walked out like he had given us a weather report. We still laugh at what he must have thought. We prayed for her healing, but what we heard in response was, "Her life will accomplish my purpose for her whether she lives 90 years or 90 minutes. You need not despair. You need to have eyes for what that purpose is. She is mine." We didn't say that to each other until days later; we simply knew. The miracle that occurred happened at 1:00 AM, not at 4:00. Would she have died if not for those prayers? I have no idea, but I strongly suspect not. But we would have been frightened by the experience, relieved at dodging a bullet instead of free from bullets.
So, it seems that Jesus changed almost nothing about my relationship with Him. He instead created one where one did not exist. Until I am Home with Him, I am still here in the world we created, subject to it the same as I was before. There is benefit of wise decisions, and God has recorded for us what that wisdom looks like, and it seems there are times He protects me from a king of Assyria. But when He died, and I therefore surrendered to Him, all I was looking for was freedom from the tyranny of human self worth. I received it. He has set my worth, which is Home with Him. "He is not ashamed to call them brothers and sister."
Beyond that, I'm not sure. Or ask a more specific question.
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Top TigerNet [31122]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 12:06 PM
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>Or ask a more specific question.
I guess what I'm trying to ask is: "Did Jesus's D&R have a national effect on Israel, or only an individual effect on Israelites?"
Rome still clobbered Israel after Jesus was born and died. So my inclination is to say 'No, his death had no effect on the nation.' Israel still sinned, and still suffered the wrath of God, before Jesus and after Jesus, based on their obedience.
That's complicated by two issues, though. The first is that after Jesus, Gentiles were courted into the religion. So the old Jewish 'nation' was not the same, at least in an earthly sense.
I suppose that is where the Kingdom of God comes into play. That is, a nation not bound by race or ethnicity, but by belief.
But that 'nation' continued to suffer also, even with belief, for 300 years, as a persecuted Christian brotherhood. So it seems that neither obedience as Jews, nor belief as Christians, guaranteed God's protection.
That applies whether one is a land-bound nation, or a belief-bound nation. Which curiously enough, is sort of a Muslim position: "God's gonna do what God's gonna do - deal with it."
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 1:30 PM
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After Jesus, Gentiles where courted into which religion? If you meant Judaism, I think the practice of allowing people to opt into it predated Jesus.
I would agree that there is no guaranteed protection. There is an offered guarantee of destiny.
I do not see why it is curious that this might be the Muslim position. If it is true, it should be anyone's position. IE, it shouldn't be curious that a flood story is in many cultures: If a flood happened, it would be, and if that is simply how humans think, it would be. The difference between Muslims and Christians is not so much about those things.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: 45% of Americans say U.S. should be a "Christian Nation".
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Nov 8, 2024, 1:07 PM
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That was a very enlightening survey and I'm not really surprised by it at all.
To me, it only makes sense that a nation founded by men, in the Christian traditions of their forefathers in Christian Europe, would found a 'Christiany' type nation. I mean what else were they gonna do? Found a Buddhist nation?
They had a social and cultural background baked-in to them that they simply could not remove. It was who they were.
But, they had the foresight and understanding to move away from that. They were literally coming from a continent that had been ripped apart by religious wars for 200 years...from the Protestant Revolution in Germany in the 1500's to the Religious Wars in France in the 1700's.
So, leaving a continent ripped apart by religion, I suspect the last thing on their minds was to create a new country based on religion. That's why I've said their primary concern was denominational fighting, imo. Maryland was founded as a refuge for Catholics, Massachusetts was Puritan/Anglican, the Carolinas had French Hugenots. Why have Catholics and Protestants (and others) start fighting all over again on a new continent?
All those settlers running from religious wars in their past probably had no interest in being part of a country that told them you must be Episcopalian, and not Lutheran.
But my curiosity, from the OP, has been "Assuming we're not a Christian nation now, what would a Christian nation look like?"...to anyone who chooses to respond.
The survey you gave starts to paint a picture from those who answered it. It's not good or bad. It just shows what people are thinking. And, given 230 years of our national cultural and social experiences, a part of our past is baked into those people's opinions today.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: 45% of Americans say U.S. should be a "Christian Nation".
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Nov 8, 2024, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to 45% of Americans say U.S. should be a "Christian Nation". ] |
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I know you don't. It's okay.
Okay, I read the article. Geez, talk about making talking points where none exist. Ask Christians if they think the universe should be a Christian universe, about that many will say yes, because the question doesn't even hint at what that means. I mean, they are Christians. But read on in the article, and almost no one seems to want churches involved in politics. So, whatever it means, this idea of Christian Nationalism you are being told to be mad about doesn't seem to even exist.
But you got to post your "45%", and that's fine. If you don't know what starting points are, you might be having a problem with end conclusions as well.
TLDR: So?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: 45% of Americans say U.S. should be a "Christian Nation".
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Nov 8, 2024, 1:56 PM
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I think you do understand the evil you are bringing. I hope the others simply do not recognize who you are and what you are doing.
A group of 100 people are having a great time at a party.
Everyone is happy with the party and with each other.
You go ask the blondes, "Would you have liked a little blow to be provided?"
A minority think a bit and say, "Sure, why not?"
Within 20 minutes you create a buzz that the blondes want to make this a blow party. And you have the survey to prove it.
No one wanted one. No one was planning to make it one. But you have demonized the blondes by making up a category, then using a question no one was thinking about to define blondes by that category.
In a community where people are trying to live up to their higher ideals, everyone has characteristics one can use to create discord that would not otherwise exist. Women, men, Jews, blacks, etc and etc, all are being used to turn each group against the others. That is the face of evil.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: 45% of Americans say U.S. should be a "Christian Nation".
Nov 8, 2024, 9:43 PM
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Bringing evil because I responded to the original poster who actually TU’d my responses? You’re a joke.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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"But you got to post your "45%", and that's fine."
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Nov 8, 2024, 2:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: 45% of Americans say U.S. should be a "Christian Nation". ] |
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Was what I posted not relevant to this discussion? I thought it was about what it means to be a Christian nation. I thought the article addressed that. Granted, the article is not a complete and thorough look at every aspect of the subject, in which all takes and opinions are examined from every angle. It wasn't meant to be, and I didn't present it as anything definitive. I was just offering it for what it was, because I thought it was relevant. I don't care one way or the other about the 45%; I just thought it was interesting.
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Athletic Dir [1126]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 2:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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Your comments at the end reminded me of something I read years ago. William f. Buckley, Jr in his book Up From Liberalism, described liberals in debate. In this instance, he used a similar example that that you have used. If I remember, it was a simple A + B = C logic.
A. Eleanor Roosevelt says she would never sit down to dinner with a facist.
B. Mrs. Roosevelt attends a dinner with Mussolini.
C. Mussolini is not a facist.
We accept the truth of A and B. We are left on our own to connect the dots as to the truth of C. For which there is another answer to C. That Mrs. Roosevelt is a liar
In a dialog on logic and not politics I liken it to what has transpired during the last two elections.
Candidate A repeats "The only way Candidate B wins is to steal the election.
Candidate A loses the election
Candidate B has stolen the election.
Or, maybe not.
I am a Christian
I Vote
My vote is influenced by my Christianity.
Maybe.....maybe not
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 3:17 PM
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It's undeniably "maybe or maybe not". The conclusion does not follow the premises. IF I had to bet, however, I'd say the fact that you are a Christian almost certainly influences your vote, and even though it can't be ruled out, it would be foolish not to assume it does.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
Nov 8, 2024, 3:24 PM
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So?
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
Nov 8, 2024, 7:02 PM
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Got it. You dont see a problem with one's values informing a vote. If everyone believed that, this thread would not exist.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
Nov 8, 2024, 9:05 PM
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One of your fellow Christians started the thread. Do you ever get tired of lying?
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 11:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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Edit: I meant 'if everyone felt the same way...'. Thanks for clarifying what you were saying.
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Athletic Dir [1126]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 3:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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My point is that the conclusion isn't meant to follow the premise. We are left to connect those dots. That's what "C" is. The premise is to lead you to the conclusion I want you to have. Which is part of what Tulsa is talking about (I think). Not just the conclusion, but to a statement or belief that isn't even part of the original.
I'm beginning to confuse myself here.
If you want to believe that the Bible is influencing politics, you don't even need to say "C". It's inferred by the first two statements. If you want to stick to it, Then yes, it most certainly is a factor in how I vote. But so is everything in my life up to the point of my filling out the ballot.
but we're not interested in that. Someone in traffic could have cut me off on the way to the polls with an opposing bumper sticker on their car. That could very well have been the deciding factor. But we're not using road ragers as a voting block, sample test group or even what may or may not have been a deciding factor in the entire election.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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I understand completely, and am not disagreeing.
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Nov 8, 2024, 4:09 PM
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In your example, the conclusion does not follow the premise.
There was an earlier discussion about whether or not religion or values should influence how one votes, and whether it was even possible for them not to. I am addressing that here. I'm just saying that while one can not make a conclusion one way or the other in your example (only maybe, maybe not), one could use a different set of premises to conclude that if you are a Christian, it most likely influences your vote, and it would be difficult for it not to.
Sorry for the confusion.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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To be clear, I see absolutely nothing wrong with one's values influencing
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Nov 8, 2024, 5:19 PM
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their vote. I think FordtunateSon said that our values are "baked-in", and I agree. They inevitably influence nearly everything we do. And I don't think that's wrong or something we should try to avoid. I think it's our right.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
Nov 8, 2024, 3:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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Agree. The C in your example is not supported by the A + B, because there is more than one possible conclusion. I believe something worse is happening today. I believe (1) a category is being created (1st Ladies are fascists), (2) Eleanor has not considered dining with fascists, but is asked a yes/no question for which there is no yes/no answer, and (3) her answer is later used to support the created category. See, 1st Ladies are fascists. No one ever said they were, no 1st ladies thought they were or desired to be, but now there is 'proof'.
Media will run that by you in a heartbeat.
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All-Time Great [97799]
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The Bible, New Testament, doesn't allow for believers to harbor hate or...
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Nov 8, 2024, 4:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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contempt which leads to hate. No matter what someone does to us, our children or others we are ordered to love them. That's why the contempt for homosexuals, trans genders and such perversions confuses me.
The Bible also gives us the greatest example of anti racism. Peter and the other 10 apostles were sent to the children of Israel (COI). Israel looked down upon others, race, religion and behavior failing to obey God's Law. The story of how God re-programed Peter to accept the gentiles into the church is in Acts 10, I think.
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Walk-On [76]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 1:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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>As a nation, we certainly deserve judgment.
Out of curiosity, judgment for what and what specifically do you think we, as a nation, deserve?
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: you're fn weird dude
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Nov 8, 2024, 5:26 PM
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How dare you ask such a thing.
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All-Time Great [97799]
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Open immorality from all classes, races, colors and walks of life.
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Nov 9, 2024, 1:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're fn weird dude ] |
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Perhaps some of us might be excluded but I remove myself from the rolls of those who don't deserve eternal punishment for immoral acts.
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Walk-On [76]
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Re: Open immorality from all classes, races, colors and walks of life.
Nov 9, 2024, 1:48 PM
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> Open immorality
Like what, I'm curious.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: A Word To My Spirit
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Nov 6, 2024, 11:26 AM
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I think most Christians in this country at least from what I have heard regret their support of him.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: A Word To My Spirit
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Nov 6, 2024, 11:58 AM
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Interesting. At least the 'evangelicals elected Trump' thing no longer works. Who do you think was responsible this time?
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: A Word To My Spirit
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Nov 6, 2024, 12:45 PM
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Vote for and support are two different things. 8 years ago he was being compared to Old Testament Israelite kings. I think evangelicals are finally seeing the man for who he is. Trump won because of the economic downturn we saw under Biden. Period.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: A Word To My Spirit
Nov 6, 2024, 6:57 PM
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Before it was 'evangelicals elected Trump'. Now you say they regretted voting for him. You may well be right. I'm just askimg who you think elected him this time. Would have to be non evangelicals, yes?
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Walk-On [76]
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Interesting, maybe i'm in a bubble but i've had the opposite experience.***
Nov 9, 2024, 1:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: A Word To My Spirit ] |
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Interesting, maybe i'm in a bubble but i've had the opposite experience.***
Nov 9, 2024, 7:57 PM
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That you echoes?
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Walk-On [76]
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Re: Interesting, maybe i'm in a bubble but i've had the opposite experience.***
Nov 10, 2024, 8:36 AM
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?
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: A Word To My Spirit
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Nov 6, 2024, 11:51 AM
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I have not voted for several elections for the same reason as you, minus the direct communication except for the general sense that we are too widely diverted from our original purpose. Voting is a great thing, and I cant help but be interested in what is happening, but I cannot align myself with what we have seen recently.
For full disclosure, I did vote this time, but it wasnt a vote for a person or party. I somewhat keep up with Senate confirmation of appointees, just to see who we are putting into these unelected and sometimes permanent positions, and this time it was bad enough for me to say, "This has to stop." I generally believe as you, and might not vote next time.
[In a humorous example, the FAA director/appointee could not answer the question, "What causes a stall/spin", which is the most basic of errors, is the single largest cause of Gen. Av. fatalities, and is the most common end result of poor planning, regulations, equipment, training, etc. You know, the things he would be responsible for. As a former GA pilot, avoiding that error was most of my preflight planning. He had no clue. I didnt choose to vote because of him, however. It got worse.]
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All-Time Great [97799]
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The Psalmist had plenty to say about trusting in man.
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Nov 8, 2024, 7:48 AM
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"8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes."
Having a favorite candidate is not evil. Disrespecting any president is evil for all authority and power comes from God. So said Christ when they took Him to the cross.
In the past I spoke much evil about those who occupied the White House, senate and HOR. I was wrong and I won't repeat that sin if God continues to show me mercy.
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All-In [10811]
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Re: A Word To My Spirit
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Nov 8, 2024, 11:53 AM
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i hired a new garbage man
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