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Replies: 73
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Paw Master [17553]
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If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 12:46 PM
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Many want to fire Wes. Some want to fire Riley. Some want to fire Dabo. You watch the defense give up a game winning drive and you blame Wes. Cade throws a pick on his last possession and many want to fire Dabo/Riley and insist Cade sucks. Blaming a single possession in the game is the same logical fallacy as thinking we backed into the ACC championship.
The fact is both units have played well enough to win other than the offense against UGA. Where we have a glaring, significant problem that rarely gets mentioned past the moment a kick is blocked is special teams. Here are some stats for you:
First, in defense of our offense and defense -
FEI offense ranking 10th
NCAA total offense 8th
ESPN offensive efficiency rating 7th
FEI defensive ranking 23rd
NCAA scoring defense 30th
ESPN defensive efficiency 17th
The defense is certainly not as gaudy as past years but we were 3rd, 24th, and 2nd in these categories last year so I don’t think Wes is some obvious failure.
Now special teams:
FEI special teams ranking: 103
NCAA punt returns: 69
NCAA net punting: 75
NCAA kickoff returns: 90
NCAA kickoff return defense: 67
NCAA blocked kicks allowed: 133 (dead last)
NCAA blocked kicks: tied 56th (1)
NCAA Field Goal Conversion %: 81
ESPN Special Teams rank: 111th
Drives started more than 80 yards from endzone: 101
Opponent drives started less than 60 yards from endzone: 68
This is not a new problem. We won national championships with 76 and 125 ranked special teams. But we had offenses and defenses that could make up the difference. If there is any one thing that anyone should be demanding to know it is why are we this bad on special teams and why haven’t we done anything about it. This level of performance puts undue stress on both the offense and defense. It keeps points off the board. It creates opportunities for the opponent. It minimizes playing time for backups.
Against Louisville we were 0/2 on FGs and and our best starting field position was the 26 and 39 yard lines. 10 other possessions started at the 25 or worse. Louisville, on the other hand started inside the 30 only 3 times - twice after kickoffs and once after recovering a turnover. Against South Carolina we were out punted by nearly 10 yards per kick. We had 3 possessions start past the 25, one after a turnover. Four drives began at the 12 or worse. Against UGA (which was only 6-0 at the half) we were out punted by 5 yards per kick. We did not start a single drive outside of the 25. Their average staring field position was the 29. You cannot spot elite teams this kind of advantage. If we have just average special teams we probably beat Louisville and SCar and look a whole lot more competitive against Georgia.
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All-In [11021]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 12:50 PM
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Agree completely with your special teams assessment
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Paw Warrior [4775]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 4, 2024, 9:38 PM
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I do as well, we desperately need a dedicated special teams coach.
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Commissioner [1204]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 12:51 PM
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We were good enough to overcome those deficiencies for years, why aren't we good enough to do it now? The same reason we don't have a special teams coach and the same reason we keep doing the same stupid things over and over expecting a different outcome, our head coach and his stubbornness. It's insanity.
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1st Rounder [640]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:14 PM
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We do have a special team coach and two dedicated coaches for special team only.
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Legend [6809]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 9:44 PM
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Who are they? As far as I know, Mike Reed is listed as special teams coach, but that’s not his primary responsibility. He coaches defensive backs. If we have dedicated special teams coaches, and that’s their primary responsibility, then they suck royally. I would start firing right there.
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All-In [10876]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 4, 2024, 4:10 PM
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Who are they? As far as I know, Mike Reed is listed as special teams coach, but that’s not his primary responsibility. He coaches defensive backs. If we have dedicated special teams coaches, and that’s their primary responsibility, then they suck royally. I would start firing right there.
https://clemsontigers.com/staff-directory/sports/football
google is your friend
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Paw Warrior [4933]
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Commissioner [1204]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Paw Master [17553]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing. ] |
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Since 2020, NIL and transfer rules have brought greater parity and less depth. The special teams performance is even worse now. DJU and Cade are not equivalent to Deshaun and Trevor. Until this season we were thin at wide receiver. There is also the Covid factor that for the first couple seasons after Covid players were coming in significantly less polished out of high school. Many of our opponents have had a disproportionate amount of seniors/super seniors - Pitt 22, FSU 23, Scar 24 (32 Seniors / 17 starters. We’ll start 7 seniors on offense/defense against SMU, 2 of which are 5th year. SMU will be starting 15, 4 fifth year, 3 sixth year. Players playing 5 seasons due to Covid will finally exhaust itself after next season.
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CU Medallion [19964]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Now wait a minute - that's not in the Special Teams playbook
Dec 3, 2024, 9:29 PM
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Varsity [102]
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Orange Blooded [2104]
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1st Rounder [688]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 4, 2024, 10:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing. ] |
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Right BigPurdy, Remember how open the offense was against NC ST..all kinds motions, fakes , creative like GA. Dabo keep your hands off or it doesn’t matter who we bring in at Coordinator. Did Kirby mess with Monken ?
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Rival Killer [2635]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 12:56 PM
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Great post! POTD?
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Valley Legend [12816]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:05 PM
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OK……so there was this coot……..nevermind………just watch every Jerry Springer show ever made…..there you have it.
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Ring of Honor [23495]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Im just tired of dumb coaching and being too conservative.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:17 PM
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Ok! It’s working! Alright… stop doing it.
Phil is hurt. Great! Give him 20 rushes.
We’re up 7 points in the 3rd. That’s probably enough!!!
Can I please be the Common Sense Coordinator? QUIT MAKING THE GAME WAY HARDER THAN IT HAS TO BE!!! 🤬🤬🤬
~JKB
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Rival Killer [2858]
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Re: Im just tired of dumb coaching and being too conservative.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:26 PM
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Exactly. We had the opportunity to put the game away on several occasions and instead played scared. Not talking about missed throws on 3rd down, but predictable runs and safe passes for almost no gain on 1st and 2nd down much of the second half with only a 1 possession lead.
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Paw Master [17553]
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Re: Im just tired of dumb coaching and being too conservative.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:27 PM
[ in reply to Im just tired of dumb coaching and being too conservative. ] |
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I don’t disagree. I wanted to scream when we brought in the jumbo package and do the obvious thing and get stuffed. Cade could have easily gotten in on the right side. But that kind of stuff happens in every game, at every level of football. It sticks out because you actually care about the result when it is Clemson. No matter how well paid, the coaches aren’t rocket scientists and the players less so.
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Valley Legend [12816]
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Re: Im just tired of dumb coaching and being too conservative.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:34 PM
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I didn’t want to scream, I really didn’t, but I involuntarily screamed at my TV for the last hour. I could see it coming, but no matter how loud I screamed at my TV, I couldn’t stop it. Stupid TV.
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Valley Legend [12816]
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Re: Im just tired of dumb coaching and being too conservative.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:27 PM
[ in reply to Im just tired of dumb coaching and being too conservative. ] |
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I’m not happy to be unhappy.
Just don’t say things to me like: “We changed our defense to stop them from doing what they weren’t doing”.
Anyone that tells me that, is gonna get, “WHAT!!!!” from me 100% of the time. I guarantee it.
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Legend [6946]
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Re: Im just tired of dumb coaching and being too conservative.
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Dec 4, 2024, 9:23 AM
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GUMBY.......that should be poast of the day, or POD, or whatever they call it!!
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110%er [4078]
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Excellent poste.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:21 PM
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Way to look beyond the sound bites.
My buddy and I watched with more than a bit of envy as Carolina's punter sent our returner running backward to field his kicks, while our emaciated-looking cyclist/punter spit out little 35 yarders all day.
And anyone who thinks details like that do not have a very tangible effect on outcomes is either lazy or willfully oblivious/both.
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Paw Master [17553]
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Re: Excellent poste.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:29 PM
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Over the course of the season it makes a dramatic difference. More injuries, less depth. It’s huge. When Trevor could bail you out with a touchdown in 2-3 plays it didn’t matter. Cade is a good college qb. But asking him to consistently go 75-80 yards to score (partly because FG kicking is a dumpster fire) is not working.
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110%er [4078]
TigerPulse: 100%
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We saw that in the final play against the coots.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:41 PM
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Most around me on that last drive were saying "We're playing to WIN!" and I was saying "No. We're playing to keep the game out of the FG unit's hands."
And like you said, Cade's a solid QB who can make plays. But he can't make all the plays, and he's going to occasionally make the wrong plays, and on Saturday it caught up with them.
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Associate AD [1065]
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great post...agree completely... I don't think Riley or Wes are the
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:21 PM
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problems... It's a combination of other things, including the great special teams assessment you gave.
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Game Changer [1640]
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Re: great post...agree completely... I don't think Riley or Wes are the
Dec 4, 2024, 11:42 AM
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All the injuries didn't help. How many games did we play with the same starters on offense and defense lines?
Our punter was one of the best HS punters in HS, don't know what happened. Woods being hurt affected our field goal kicking. Not making excuses, just facts
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Gridiron Giant [15398]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:22 PM
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Offense has trouble scoring vs halfway quality competition. The O is subpar by my standards.
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Paw Master [17553]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:33 PM
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Okay, good for you. I’m laying out in simple fasts why we are significantly disadvantaging our offense compared to our opponents. It’s the 8 best total offense and 14 best scoring offense. Shift our average field position by 10 yards and you can probably reverse those numbers and we’re 11-1. So, you could fix the completely busted, worst P4 special teams or go after the top 10 unit. I know which I would choose.
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Gridiron Giant [15398]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:38 PM
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Neat. Bottom line is our offense has trouble scoring. That's all you need to know.
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Paw Master [17553]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right th
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Dec 3, 2024, 1:56 PM
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You aren’t a very high level problem solver are you? Drives starting between the 16-20 score 32% of the time. It jumps to 46% if you start between the 36-40. A team is least likely to score after a kickoff and a punt - in that order. So starting field position incontrovertibly matters. Now complicate the matter by having a field goal unit in disarray. Leaving points on the field and giving extremely advantageous field position to the opponent. Or, not attempting the points, and creating even longer odds of scoring. And since we still manage to be 14th of 133 in scoring, you continue to misinterpret the situation.
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Gridiron Giant [15398]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right th
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Dec 3, 2024, 2:40 PM
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Okay...I think you're new to sports.
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Game Changer [1607]
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Translation:"he was told there would be no math"****
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Dec 3, 2024, 3:32 PM
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Redshirt [92]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 2:19 PM
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Great info! We hardly ever rush the other team’s punter so there is no pressure on the punter. We let them relax and punt the ball out of the stadium.
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Orange Blooded [2137]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 2:20 PM
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When the dirt peckers gave the Tigers a GIFT by attempting an inside kick how in the world could you not take advantage of this. Wound up having to punt was a killer when a golden opportunity to slam the door was missed. Great teams take advantage with a constant attacking mentality instead of trying to protect a lead.
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Game Changer [2052]
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whoa whoa whoa....we don't do facts around here...knock it off!***
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Dec 3, 2024, 2:22 PM
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Tiger Spirit [9406]
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What are the offensive stats against teams with
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Dec 3, 2024, 2:23 PM
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winning records?
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Varsity [102]
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Re: What are the offensive stats against teams with
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Dec 3, 2024, 2:47 PM
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Probably as dismal as the defensive stats against teams with a winning record.
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Rival Killer [2652]
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WE punted a few times near midfield only to give them the ball outside the 25,
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Dec 3, 2024, 2:37 PM
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Whereas they punted us deep or flipped the field a few times.
In a close, low scoring game punting matters.
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Top TigerNet [32257]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 2:43 PM
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Your special teams assessment is a good one: but remember that Dabo has never placed a big emphasis on special teams and it's shown this year. And not in a good way.
I tend to disagree on the defensive side of the ball. The Goodwin experiment has backfired bigtime. And I think he's starting to lose the locker room....that's never good.
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National Champion [7749]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 2:59 PM
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Team Defense Rankings:
2024: 34th
2023: 32nd
2022: 22nd
---------------
2021: 2nd
2020: 18th
2019: 3rd
It's not just that we aren't close to where we were under Venables. It's also the case that our defense has finished lower in total defense every year under Wes. So we aren't where we used to be and we are only trending in the opposite direction that we desire.
Sorry, but Wes needs to get fired. Mickey Conn can get fired as well since he's the Co-DC.
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Paw Warrior [4755]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 3, 2024, 7:23 PM
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Leon,
One might argue that the difference is talent rather than schemes. These recent defenses are nowhere near as talented as before.
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1st Rounder [688]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 4, 2024, 10:25 AM
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Tobias , Venables could recruit much better too
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Paw Warrior [4755]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 4, 2024, 5:56 PM
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I don't disagree, but I have to say that NIL and the portal have changed the recruiting game quite a bit.
I don't know how Venables is faring in the recruiting these days.
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Paw Master [16531]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I'll put you down for "fire dabo" crowd.
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Dec 3, 2024, 3:03 PM
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Hall of Famer [8154]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 3:12 PM
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We lose the special teams battle against pretty much everyone we play. Therefore, we have to win the other two phases of the game. You can’t do that with the 75th ranked rushing defense, which was left out of the evaluation. Rushing defense is one of the most important stats in football.
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Game Changer [1607]
TigerPulse: 87%
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Takes a toll physically as well but...
Dec 3, 2024, 3:43 PM
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42 carries for 267 yds at 6.5 per carry...that not bad huh?
BTW... Cade's overall numbers were very comparable to Sellars
NS 13-21 164 yds 1int, 16 car 166 yds 2 tds 1 fumble
CK 24-36 280 yds 1int, 10 car 62 yds 2 tds 0 fumbles
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Paw Master [17409]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Joined: 2003
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Were you at the Louisville game?***
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Dec 3, 2024, 3:35 PM
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Legend [6809]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 4:03 PM
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Good analysis. I’ve said a few times that good high school teams have better special teams than we do. It’s a critical part of the game that we absolutely ignore.
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Paw Warrior [4755]
TigerPulse: 82%
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 3, 2024, 7:21 PM
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I don't disagree - and Special teams problems are especially glaring when a kick is blocked.
OTOH, special team plays account for a very small % of total plays and so perhaps it is wise not to over emphasize them. As noted above, we have won Nattys with poor special teams before.
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Top TigerNet [30382]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 7:40 PM
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I certainly agree with your assessment of our not so special teams. We never block a punt, and our kick returns are nonexistent since the CJ Spiller days.
If we had elite defensive or offensive output, we could over come it. But we do not. Field position matters.
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Solid Orange [1341]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
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Dec 3, 2024, 10:52 PM
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Excellent post and you have done your research. Do we have a “special teams” coach?
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Paw Warrior [4933]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 4, 2024, 8:00 AM
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Certainly no evidence of one, or the three “directing traffic” ..HS Special Teams are better because they’re “ effectively” coached ..
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Dynasty Maker [3129]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 4, 2024, 8:00 AM
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As I've said, all I want for Christmas is Dabo to hire a PROVEN special teams coach
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Orange Immortal [62967]
TigerPulse: 100%
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YEAH BUT DABO WON'T USE THE PORTAL AND HE HIRES FRIENDS
Dec 4, 2024, 8:51 AM
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AND FAMILY AND HE MEDDLES IN THE OFFENSE AND HE DOES THAT STUPID DANCE IN THE LOCKER ROOM AND HE'S ALWAYS PUMPING SUNSHINE AND HE MAKES ME SICK AND AND AND . . .
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Valley Legend [12827]
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 4, 2024, 9:09 AM
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Where in Gods name did you get those defensive stats?! Clemson is 57. Learn to do research. Goodwin stinks. Here’s the link if you don’t understand how to click on pics.
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22/p2
No. Don’t fire Dabo. Don’t fire Riley. Fire fans like you that think Goodwin and our position coaches are great.
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Orange Phenom [14255]
TigerPulse: 100%
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He's using real, legitimate stats
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Dec 4, 2024, 9:11 AM
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You just linked total defense which is basically a joke stat these days.
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Ring of Honor [23394]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: He's using real, legitimate stats
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Dec 4, 2024, 9:20 AM
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He used total offense but not total defense, maybe because one of them supports his argument and the other doesn't.
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Orange Phenom [14255]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I ignore both of them
Dec 4, 2024, 10:03 AM
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They can be incredibly misleading stats.
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Paw Master [17553]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: He's using real, legitimate stats
Dec 5, 2024, 2:53 AM
[ in reply to Re: He's using real, legitimate stats ] |
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I provided numerous stats on offense and defense but the point was about how those compare against our Special Teams stats. Yes, our total defense is much worse than our scoring defense. It’s also why solid special teams are important when you aren’t dominating total defense. If you think you can spin that total defense ranking to mean our special teams are more problematic than please feel free. Otherwise you’re simply throwing out a red herring.
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Orange Blooded [2135]
TigerPulse: 95%
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 4, 2024, 10:17 AM
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Great points---but look what the offense did against the few good teams we played.
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CU Guru [1585]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I wonder if our S/T coaches have heard of the wonderful land of Australia***
Dec 4, 2024, 10:18 AM
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1st Rounder [688]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Re: I wonder if our S/T coaches have heard of the wonderful land of Australia***
Dec 4, 2024, 10:32 AM
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Fire Goodwin , Dabo stop coaching the offense , or don’t have OC , & save the $. Let Riley DO his Job .
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Varsity [102]
TigerPulse: 92%
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CU Guru [1585]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: This!!!
Dec 4, 2024, 2:12 PM
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Plenty of teams have had an Australian punter ever since Brad Wing went to LSU over a decade ago. I think Clemson should try to get in on that
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Tiger Titan [48541]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
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Joined: 2003
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Our problems are much bigger than special teams.
1
Dec 4, 2024, 11:54 AM
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But if you want to major in the minors, that's your right.
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Paw Master [17553]
TigerPulse: 100%
51
Posts: 11289
Joined: 2007
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Re: Our problems are much bigger than special teams.
1
Dec 5, 2024, 2:55 AM
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Feel free to make an argument using facts rather than appeal to emotion fallacies. I won’t hold my breath.
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Varsity [102]
TigerPulse: 92%
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We did back into the ACC Championship.
Dec 4, 2024, 3:01 PM
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We also won most of our conference games and deserve to play in the ACCCG, because Miami couldn't close it out when it mattered. Both of those things can be true.
And the truth is the team as a whole played well enough to win ONE game it lost. UGA's second half performance was a beat down, and the whole Louisville game was a complete disaster. So no, we did not play well enough to win all of the games we lost. Good teams win most of their games, great teams find ways to win every game. That should be the expectation, great not good.
Goodwin still needs to be re-evaluated, so does Riley, so does Grisham, so does Richardson, so does Conn and the entire coaching staff, Dabo included. This needs to happen every year, especially in years that dont live up to "Best is Standard." Truth is the Offense has not been consistently successful since Riley arrived, the Defense and Linebacker position have declined since Goodwin took over from Venables, and we have a whole lot of dead weight on this coaching staff and on the roster in general.
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Associate AD [1065]
TigerPulse: 100%
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they cannot both be true
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Dec 4, 2024, 3:05 PM
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"backing in" means it was out of our hands and someone lost to create a tiebreakers scenario that favors us.
We lost one ACC game and Miami lost 2. We finished outright 2nd. No tie.
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Paw Master [17553]
TigerPulse: 100%
51
Posts: 11289
Joined: 2007
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Re: We did back into the ACC Championship.
Dec 5, 2024, 2:59 AM
[ in reply to We did back into the ACC Championship. ] |
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This is a classic red herring fallacy. When Miami played their 8th game is irrelevant to the final standings. That’s just a fact. Being unwilling or unable to admit it means you probably have problems with statistics and probabilities and are likely prone to gamblers fallacy.
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Orange Phenom [14997]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 4, 2024, 6:01 PM
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Nice post but not sure I agree on the Louisville assessment. From what I recall, they got the best of us all around.
Still, a solid post. 👍🏼
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Paw Master [17553]
TigerPulse: 100%
51
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Joined: 2007
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 5, 2024, 3:00 AM
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My speculation as to possible change in outcome is not nearly as important as recognizing that special teams are disproportionately a problem.
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Orange Blooded [2104]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: If youre going to complain at least complain about the right thing.
Dec 4, 2024, 9:34 PM
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Excellent post! 100% correct!
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Heisman Winner [79096]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 29315
Joined: 2018
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I hate to say it but we could use that tool
Dec 4, 2024, 9:40 PM
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ST coach at Cola.
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