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Rival Killer [2834]
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If what comes out of a man defiles him
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Nov 14, 2024, 1:50 PM
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not what goes in...
Why do so many christians consider the use of alcohol a sin?
I believe those two thoughts are mutually exclusive.
I've heard many a preacher over the years stand in the pulpit and make the bold statement that you should abstain.
Jesus himself was accused by the Pharisees of being a drunk and a glutton, and in response he said you called John the Baptist crazy because he didnt drink wine, but you are calling me crazy for drinking it.
It's right there in the scripture, yet most evangelical churches are gonna use Welch's grape juice at their next lord's supper, and the ones that do drink will make sure to go to a liquor or grocery store out of the way of other members when they get their booze.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102645]
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Evangelical church quietly raises hand.......
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Nov 14, 2024, 1:57 PM
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Only know this because I've poured it on more than a few Sundays.
Message was edited by: Tiggity®
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Campus Hero [13595]
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Seems logical to me.
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Nov 14, 2024, 2:04 PM
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After reading many of your posts and pushing back where I see fit, can I ask a question:
Am I correct to assume you have a bigger issue with religion as a concept than Christianity in particular?
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Seems logical to me.
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Nov 14, 2024, 2:37 PM
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I don't have an issue with religion. I go to church every Sunday. I believe Jesus' message of loving your neighbor, but I don't believe all the other doctrine and creeds and what not that gets attached to it.
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Campus Hero [13595]
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Re: Seems logical to me.
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Nov 14, 2024, 3:52 PM
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Like what the churches have attached to it?
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Seems logical to me.
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Nov 14, 2024, 4:17 PM
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Well I guess it would be anything that goes beyond love your neighbor.
Even the central doctrine of christianity is unclear and open to interpretation.
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Campus Hero [13595]
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Re: Seems logical to me.
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Nov 14, 2024, 7:47 PM
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So it seems like you have been a fairly voracious reader of the Bible, no? You believe that Jesus is the son of God? Do you believe in prayer?
No judgment. Just genuinely curious.
Message was edited by: elwyn07®
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Seems logical to me.
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Nov 14, 2024, 8:00 PM
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So it seems like you have been a fairly voracious reader of the Bible, no?
Yes. Read and studied it my entire life. From an evangelical perspective until later in life.
You believe that Jesus is the son of God?
No. I see no reason to believe that claim anymore than Muhammad’s or anybody else. I’m not even sure Jesus believed he was who Christians claimed he was.
Do you believe in prayer?
I believe it helps people. Is there a an actual person of some sort somewhere listening? Not sure about that.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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You sound a whole lot like me, TBG!***
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Nov 14, 2024, 11:31 PM
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Campus Hero [13595]
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Re: Seems logical to me.
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Nov 15, 2024, 8:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Seems logical to me. ] |
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Ok. You believe Jesus existed, but didn’t perform miracles and didn’t rise from the dead?
Or he did perform the acts as described, but it was either like a magic show or the stories were twisted to write a compelling story?
And He or people around him made up the rest of that crazy book?
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Seems logical to me.
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Nov 15, 2024, 10:01 AM
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We don’t even know for sure who the original writers were, or the exact genre the were writing.
Was this a historical fiction?
A lot of people were reportedly able to perform exorcisms back then, and Jesus was the hardly only one claiming to be the messiah in the first century.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 15, 2024, 9:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: Seems logical to me. ] |
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My problem is the absolute certainty, almost authority, with which some people pretend to know things they can't possibly know, confusing faith with actual knowledge, and then assuming that position when interacting with others, without allowing for the possibility that they could be wrong, and others with different beliefs could be right.
My problem is when people start from this perspective, then build a system which somehow makes it all seem to work, while ignoring basic logic to explain it all away.
My problem isn't with God or Jesus, my problem is with some of the things people believe about God and Jesus. And to be clear, when I say "my problem", I totally respect the right of everyone to believe whatever they want to believe, and live those beliefs fully, as long as doing so does not interfere with the right of others to do the same. That is not a problem for me at all. The problem comes from trying to discuss religion with people who confuse their faith with knowledge, and can't deal with the inherent uncertainty that entails.
I can know with a high degree of certainty that 2+2=4. I can't possibly know if God created the world in 7 days. When people tell me that 2+2=5.36097, and that they know that God did create the world in 7 days, I call BS. I especially call BS if they tell me they know this because God said so. Again, I am not doubting God, I am questioning what that person believes about God and the Bible.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 15, 2024, 10:03 AM
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So, now we know about starting perspectives? 
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 15, 2024, 10:11 AM
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I always have. ">
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 15, 2024, 11:17 AM
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You said you didnt. But I figured you did.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 15, 2024, 10:31 AM
[ in reply to Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus. ] |
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Back when you introduced the concept of starting points into that thread, I never understood exactly what starting point you were referring to, or how it affected my point in that thread. Help me out . . .
(A)What was my starting point you were referring to
and
(B)How did that starting point affect whether of not God could be both all-powerful and not all-powerful? And by all-powerful, I mean that the ability to do absolutely anything, without limits, as in make a circle a square.
Maybe I should ask this question first, or in addition to that: Is there anything God cannot do, or anything he must do, or anything he must do a certain way?
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 15, 2024, 11:29 AM
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I dont remember the details of that discussion. My basic point was that many personal accusations result from two people not acknowledging that they start from two different places. In the abortion example, a person who truly believes that a human life does not occur at conception is not murderer for having that belief. A person who is convinced that one does occur at conception is not misogynous for believing that. Yet we hear those accusations all the time. Instead the two should recognize their two different and irreconcilable starting points and figure out an imperfect solution that allows society to move forward.
My response to you below is an example. You might not intend "faith over knowledge" to be judgement of another person, but it actually is, as it fails to account for the possibility that you and another person have two different views of the NT, his being a valid one even if you disagree.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 15, 2024, 12:24 PM
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My basic point was that many personal accusations result from two people not acknowledging that they start from two different places.
I agree 100%, and have understood that and don't think that anything I have said ignores or discounts that.
Again, are there things God can't do, must do, or must do a certain way, and has no choice in these matters?
I never understood from the start what starting point could make that impossible or the least bit tricky to answer in a concise, straightforward manner. Thankfully I think you finally said that there are some things God can't do, because God is limited by his own attributes (or in so many words). I don't know why that was so hard or controversial.
My original point in the thread was that God slaughtering people was completely unnecessary if God were all powerful. 88 responded that it was necessary, because God said he would, and that he therefore had to do what he said he would do, because he can't lie. Somehow, 88 would never admit that therefore God is not all-powerful, as if "all-powerful" is some kind of nebulous concept, all while giving an example of how God is not all-powerful.
Again, 2+2=4 is knowledge; "Jesus rose from the dead" is not. It requires blind faith in things that can't be verified. Whether or not a person accepts that changes nothing and is not dependent on one's "view" or starting point.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 15, 2024, 2:32 PM
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Got it. Understood. I continue to disagree with your last paragraph. The historical claim of the Gospel accounts are as defensible as any accepted ancient historical account. You are free to keep saying 'blind faith', but that is simply not true. I consider it to be one of the most factual things I know, which is a conclusion you do not have to also hold. You can disagree with me, but I will not accept the blind faith characterization, for the reasons explained below.
One would just as reasonably say, "I believe 2+2=4, while you believe Oswald shot Kennedy." The first is math, the latter is an evidential conclusion, not blind faith.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 16, 2024, 10:21 AM
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Who killed Kennedy and whether or not Jesus rose from the dead are both matters of opinion, not knowledge/fact. Any conclusion for either requires either faith in the reliability and accuracy of the evidence, or acceptance without consideration of the evidence.
I respect everyone's conclusions on matters like this, because I know we can't possibly know, and most of us are doing the best we can to make sense of it all.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
Nov 16, 2024, 11:12 AM
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I said exactly that, I think. 2+2 is math, a conclusion is a conclusion. You have conclusions also. Your statement above that you believe facts while others rely on "blind faith" is (1] wrong for the reasons stated below and (2) condescending of people who hold conclusions different from yours and (3) an elevated view of your own thinking. I know you do not think that of yourself, but that is what those statements say, so that will generate legit responses you maybe didnt intend.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 16, 2024, 12:37 PM
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I don't see how distiguishing between faith and knowledge = condescension, nor have I said that "I believe facts while others rely on blind faith", as I don't claim to know. I'm simply pointing out that believing in the resurrection of Jesus requires a leap of faith not required for 2+2=4, yet I know a lot of people who act as if there is no difference, and won't admit the uncertainty. I don't see how I'm the one who is condescending in that scenario.
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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I'll give you a real life example . . .
Nov 16, 2024, 1:20 PM
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Was hanging out with a group of 4 of my oldest and best friends, and we told jokes and laughed about old memories and eventually got round to politics and religion. My very best friend in the whole world said "I don't care, because I KNOW where I'm going when I die"! He put heavy emphasis on KNOW. I responded "Hold on. You have faith, but you don't KNOW". He said "I know in my heart".
I am 100% cool with that. I know what he means, and it's a totally valid position. There are certain things that I feel in my heart that produce that profound sense of knowing at a level that can't be explained. Nobody can convince me I'm wrong. Yet, I know and acknowledge that is totally subjective. I don't, and can't possibly know it the same way I know that my back hurts or that 2+2=4, and if I'm being honest, I can't pretend and claim that I do.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
Nov 17, 2024, 12:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus. ] |
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I think you are taking a comment like your friend's "I know where I am going when I die" as someone who believes something on 'blind faith'. What if he had instead said, "Based on (1) the evidence for the accuracy of the NT and (2) my personal relationship with Jesus that is as tangibly real as my relationship with anyone else, I have no doubt I will spend eternity with him"? #1 is an evidential conclusion, and #2 is a tangible experience he has had that you have not. Neither are 'blind faith'. That comment by him, whether you agree with him or not, and whether you would be right or not, is obviously not one that allows you to say, "I believe in facts while he believes in blind faith."
But we dont talk that way in conversation. We say, "I know I will spend eternity with Jesus".
So, what am I to make of your apparent unwillingness to grant your friend his conclusions and his experiences without characterizing them as blind faith? It could seem to say that you believe your thinking is superior to his. I do not believe that is who you are or want to communicate. It does seem difficult for you to think about Christians, "They have defensible beliefs that might be correct."
Consider this: You posted a video sometime back, which you said explained many things, in which the speaker rightfully said, "Not everything that is true is factual." You seem so intent on believing that Christians must be wrong, or at least irrational, that you have forgotten your own correct assertions about truth.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
Nov 17, 2024, 10:21 AM
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In your first paragraph alone, you used the term "blind faith" as how I am characterizing my friend's position, while I never used or implied that term in that post, and have acknowledged that such conclusions can be evidential, at least in part. I realize that I used that term earlier in this thread, but did not mean to imply that such conclusions were entirely without reason or evidence. I stand corrected if that's the way it came across, so let's get past that right now. It's not an important part of my position.
What is important, and which it appears you don't agree with, is the discernable difference between faith and knowledge, and you seem to be making the case that the evidential conclusion that Jesus's resurrection is a historical fact = knowledge. I am pointing out that evidential conclusions are often wrong and can't be held with enough certainty to be claimed as knowledge. Courts reach evidential conclusions every day that are wrong, as do we all.
So, what am I to make of your apparent unwillingness to grant your friend his conclusions and his experiences without characterizing them as blind faith?
I don't. I grant him his conclusion 100%, even if I don't agree. As I said:
He said "I know in my heart". I am 100% cool with that. I know what he means, and it's a totally valid position.
I have different conclusions based on different experiences, which I think are every bit as valid as his.
It could seem to say that you believe your thinking is superior to his. I do not believe that is who you are or want to communicate. It does seem difficult for you to think about Christians, "They have defensible beliefs that might be correct."
False. Of course, I believe my thinking is correct, as you do yours. And yes, I do have problems with a lot of things Christians believe, but I welcome the possibility that I am wrong and they are right. I don't hate Christianity and am not determined to prove Christianity wrong. Like Big Dog, I still embrace many aspects of Christianity and occasionally attend church. That's why I love these discussions; I'm looking for holes in my own thinking and trying to figure it all out. With all of the claims that I am condescending and believe my thinking is superior, I freely admit that I don't know. Will you do the same?
Message was edited by: Smiling Tiger®
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
Nov 17, 2024, 6:45 PM
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I refer to the "blind faith" characterizations of one's conclusions because they are your words, not mine.
Am I "making the case that the evidential conclusion that Jesus's resurrection is a historical fact = knowledge"? Are you making the case that concluding the opposite = knowledge? You would agree that one or the other is true, correct? So, if you say you believe facts while Christians believe in "blind faith" (your words), the same could be said for you.
I do understand that you may be now saying you didnt say you believe facts while Christians instead resort to blind faith, but you literally did say it. You can say you didnt mean it that way, and I will immediately accept that - we all say things we dont actually intend - but you did say it. And it does seem as though you believe that.
As to your last question: "With all of the claims that I am condescending and believe my thinking is superior, I freely admit that I don't know. Will you do the same?" Do what? Say I dont know Jesus is the risen Messiah? I cant say that. I know for experiential reasons. I also know you might not believe that, for your own reasons. I have disagreed with you on many aspects of this, but I have never said a non-believer believes blindness. I have never characterized non-believers' thinking in terms like "blind" or "build a system which somehow makes it all seem to work, while ignoring basic logic to explain it all away". While disagreeing with others on specific matters, I have not characterized other people like that. I make tons of mistakes, but I dont think I have done that. So, what are you asking me to "do the same" about?
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Orange Immortal [61516]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
Nov 17, 2024, 9:51 PM
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You claim not only to believe, but to know that the resurrection is historical fact. I don't believe blind faith is required to hold that belief.
I don't believe it is something that can be known in the same sense that one knows 2+2=4, or with the same degree of certainty, and faith in the accuracy and reliability of the evidence is required in order to conclude it occurred.
I do believe the resurrection very well could have occurred.
I admit that I don't know, and believe that we can't know. You claim you do know, that I am wrong, that I am condescending and consider my thinking is superior.
I think that is where we are.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: My problem is not with God, or Jesus.
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Nov 15, 2024, 11:16 AM
[ in reply to My problem is not with God, or Jesus. ] |
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When you see someone in the forum say they know God created the universe in 7 24-hour periods, discuss that with them. You might find less stupidity than you are assuming, and less requirement that you believe the same. I am going to propose that you might be overlooking something. Stay with me here.
The usual problem with the skeptic's approach to NT accuracy is that it consists of throwing yes-buts at the idea. Most pop lit proposing that the moon shot didnt happen or that the CIA killed Kennedy uses that approach, and it can sound very compelling because the yes-buts do exist. There are inconsistencies in the accounts, we are not 100% sure of authorship, we lack the handwritten originals, etc and etc. Can say those things about almost any historical document. The shadows in the moon photos face the wrong direction.
As I know you know, the affirmative case for a document's accuracy is built from the other direction. Each factor determining pro or con is researched, and the total case pro or con is built step by step, similar to a trial. One small aspect, such as probable adherence of a copy to the original, can take volumes of research and data.
An example of such a yes-but: "The NT is all hearsay". Forgetting for a moment that this is not true, even if it were, hearsay can be tested for truth. In a trial, hearsay can be admitted if it is impossible to cross examine the witness, but in that case it has to be corroborated with other evidence and testimony. It is fair to demand that corroboration, but is incorrect to handwave as "hearsay". That yes-but sounds very legit, especially because it is partly true. But it has been accounted for, which the skeptic doesnt know or doesnt say. There is a reason the shadows face that way.
To subject the NT to that kind of bottom up examination would produce many volumes of data. A summary of that data would be a thick book in fine print. That has been done.
The reason most skeptics dont approach the possible validity of the NT accounts from that direction is that it would take many hours of reading. Most people havent read the Warren Report, for instance, though many claim to know who did or didnt kill Kennedy without having done so.
None of this is to preach about how research is done and decisions are made. I know you know all that. However, if a person has objective reason to believe the NT is accurate, that person can believe a thing very different from you without confusing faith with knowledge. I know you did not intend to be condescending, but that statement is that. Consider this: there are many PhD's and Nobel winners who have concluded the NT is accurate, for what they consider to o be very good reasons. That is not proof of accuracy, but if any of us made such a statement to them we would likely find ourselves on the losing end of the exchange. All I am saying is that the people you are speaking with, at least on this board, see their faith as resulting from what they know rather than standing in for it.
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All-Time Great [97799]
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Seems to me like you just want to drink beer.
Nov 16, 2024, 9:25 AM
[ in reply to Re: Seems logical to me. ] |
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I suspect drinking beer is precious to you but I don't think you're a drunk or even an alcoholic. If I'm right then you want to remember, you answer to God alone who expect your first obligation is to Him and within that obligation your family.
Smoking pot made me feel guilty, so guilty in fact that I stopped decades ago. Drinking a beer does not make me feel guilty but God shows His disapproval through my elevated blood pressure and that's why I choose not to drink 99.99999...% of the time.
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All-TigerNet [5989]
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Because impurity of thought
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Nov 14, 2024, 2:41 PM
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That alcohol causes?
Dancing, it causes dancing too
HTH
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: Because impurity of thought
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Nov 14, 2024, 3:30 PM
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I’m well aware of the dangers of alcohol. Will not argue otherwise.
The question is did Jesus know? And if god created wine, did he know?
Ecclesiastes 9:7
Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.
Psalm 104:15
and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man 's heart.
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All-TigerNet [5989]
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Well
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Nov 14, 2024, 4:53 PM
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I'm an "I love you man" drunk, but booze just makes some people mean
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All-Time Great [97799]
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I agree but I point out that a book could be written on...
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Nov 15, 2024, 8:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: Because impurity of thought ] |
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the times within the pages of the Bible where men did ungodly things because they drank too much wine.
Have I not read here where it was mentioned Lot's encounter with is daughters after getting snoot full?
Was Lot alone condemned while ignoring that he would not have impregnated his daughters had he not been drunk on his butt?
Too many negatives make this confusing?
God simply wants us to acknowledge that drinking is dangerous and will cause us to do things we otherwise would not do. I'm not saying you'd get drunk and abuse a child. I'm simply saying that there is great danger in both drinking too much and even a greater danger of drinking too often.
I am an alcoholic. Over the last year I've probably drank a dozen cans of beer. Only once did I drink two on the same day. I'll have little pity for you if after these warnings you destroy your family with alcohol or, God forbid, one of your children turn out to be an alcoholic because 'daddy said drinking is OK!'
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All-Time Great [97799]
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All-Time Great [97799]
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You've either been going to the wrong church or you're...
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Nov 15, 2024, 8:23 AM
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way over sensitive to preaching.
The #1 scripture I've heard preached on alcohol consumption isn't about alcohol consumption at all.
Ephesians 5:
"18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."
That's how I read it.
This is how you're reading it:
"18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."
If preachers are reading it like you're reading it you need to be in another church.
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Clemson Icon [25319]
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Re: You've either been going to the wrong church or you're...
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Nov 15, 2024, 9:58 AM
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This thread is a discussion about one small aspect of morality. The Gospel is the Messiah's atonement for everyone's equal immorality. Argument about who-can-do-what really is arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Cause, universal destiny, individual powerlessness, lifeboats, etc. OT, but there are many interesting factoids about the Titanic, known because of the survivors. There is a photo of the iceberg it hit, with paint marks on the ice. The gash below the waterline was fatal not because of size but length (no pigs), breaching 5 compartments. Had it breached only 4, the ship would not have sunk. The ship's designer was on board; when he was told 5 compartments were flooding, he told the captain, "You have two hours." I think it sunk in 2.5 after the actual collision, so he was amazingly accurate.
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Athletic Dir [1126]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
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Nov 15, 2024, 8:49 AM
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I have heard many preachers and sermons that have the most difficult time getting their heads wrapped around the idea of turning water into wine. Jesus' first miracle was just to keep the party going.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
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Nov 15, 2024, 11:52 AM
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It really was. And the wedding host said he saved the good stuff for last.
This astonished them because Israelite culture at weddings they would serve the good stuff first, and then bring out the prune juice when everyone was tipsy.
Imagine your pastor making a beer run at a wedding at a church that ran out? How well would that go over?
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Top TigerNet [28520]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
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Nov 16, 2024, 1:44 AM
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You should go to France and explain to a French Christian why he can't have a vineyard.
Of course, if we drink too much alcohol there's a much greater chance of that which comes out of us defiling us.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
Nov 16, 2024, 7:39 AM
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And yet Jesus gave more alcohol to people who had already been drinking
Something isn’t adding up.
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All-Time Great [97799]
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I alway said I'd make a better atheist than anyone anwhere due to the...
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Nov 16, 2024, 8:58 AM
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questions I've asked.
What bumfuzzels me is why a God who has the intelligence, wisdom and power to design and build an entire universe starting with the tiniest sub atomic particle all the way to the stars which are in their locality called suns would take notice of one of the most destructive forces on the most wonderful planet He created?
David had the same quandary.
Psa 139:
"1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
David, believing that God is everywhere couldn't fathom how God would regard his future thoughts as worthy of attention. Vs 2
He couldn't imagine why God WOULD be behind and before him, why He would track his path and consider him worth of His hand.
If that doesn't humble a man it's because he is dead.
Why argue or concern yourself with the trivial issues? Refraining from alcohol is a tradition in America's evangelical churches. I broke from traditions over the years myself.
Anyone got an accurate spelling on bumfuzzles
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Top TigerNet [28520]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
Nov 16, 2024, 9:57 AM
[ in reply to Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him ] |
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If you're talking about the wedding and that was your takeaway, then you've missed the point of the story.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
Nov 16, 2024, 11:31 AM
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I’m just going by the facts of the story.
Btw, who are you to say what the writers intent was? He was not writing within a modern evangelical Christian context.
That is the view that you are reading this story from. Thousands of years of interpretation and commentary are influencing your take on the passage.
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Top TigerNet [28520]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
Nov 16, 2024, 4:45 PM
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I think the fact that he used Jewish cleansing vessels to hold the water he turned to wine kind of gives it away.
And, what do you mean by Evangelical? I think a lot of people attach a lot to that word, beyond its original meaning.
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Rival Killer [2834]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
Nov 16, 2024, 2:10 PM
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I’m just making that point that your context and presumptions influence your interpretation of this passage.
Again, I was just reporting what it says happened. If there is some deeper theological meaning it’s not apparent in the text itself.
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Top TigerNet [28520]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
Nov 17, 2024, 4:31 AM
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The point of the story was that Jesus made something that was unclean into something that was clean.
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Top TigerNet [28520]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
Nov 17, 2024, 4:36 AM
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It's only apparent if you are drawn by the Holy Spirit to notice the details.
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Trainer [45]
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Re: If what comes out of a man defiles him
Nov 21, 2024, 5:53 PM
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Alcohol is not sin. Drinking to drunkeness is sin.
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