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Hall of Famer [23635]
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Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 29, 2024, 9:15 PM
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You believe there will be a 1000 year reign after the second coming, there will be a 7 year tribulation immediately prior to the second coming, and there will be a rapture of all believers prior to the tribulation.
Note: I believe that. I'm not posting this in order to get into a debate over eschaetology.
Very minor side point.
Doesn't it seem like a lot of us who believe that when we casually discuss end times, we talk like the second coming and the rapture are the same event?
And, specifically, doesn't it seem like a lot of modern Christian music talks about them either as the same event or as though there is no rapture.
One example, sort of a standard song about Jesus' return is "The King is Coming." Is this song talking about the rapture or the second coming?
If you are pre-trib then when Jesus comes He won't be coming back for you and me. We will be coming back with Him. We were raptured 7 years before the second coming. BTW, even if the theology is a little mixed up, I still love the song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaYRmSKm98c
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All-TigerNet [11877]
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Thats crazy as shid, no offense.
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May 29, 2024, 9:42 PM
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John the Elder was prolly high as a Georgia pine or in the middle of a fever dream when he wrote that.
Be kind. To others, to yourself, just be kind. Help those who are struggling. And if you do that, when you kick the bucket, God has made a place for you. Even if you’re a dirty rotten bass turd when you were alive, He probably still has you covered.
Patmos out!
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Orange Blooded [2356]
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Re: Thats crazy as shid, no offense.
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May 30, 2024, 7:00 AM
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Agree. Jesus is an idea, and a great one. He may or may not have been a real person, but what is important is his message. Imagine if people focused on that instead of how exactly the these end of time myths are going to play out.
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110%er [6683]
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Re: Thats crazy as shid, no offense.
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May 31, 2024, 3:50 PM
[ in reply to Thats crazy as shid, no offense. ] |
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This seems like the anti religion forum instead of the religion forum.
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110%er [9713]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 29, 2024, 11:01 PM
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what is time
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Hall of Famer [23635]
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That is actually a great scientific, not just philosophical, question.
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May 30, 2024, 3:18 PM
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Time, space, matter, energy, force.
We can precisely measure them. We can predict their behavior. We know precisely how the act.
But, can we define any of them?
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CU Guru [1427]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 1:43 AM
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holy theatrics batman
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Legend [18215]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 7:26 AM
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I believe in the rapture - Pretribulation.
I believe in the Millenium Kingdom - post tribulation.
I agree that folks tend to "mix" the rapture with the second coming in conversation. They are separate. With the rapture, we meet Jesus, and those that have preceded us in "sleep", in the clouds. The second coming we return with Christ.
Concerning music, the "theme" of Christian doctrine is there... but the theology of it is somewhat "off" at times. For example, "When we've been there ten thousand years" is entirely wrong. This is because there will be no sun or moon - no shadow of turning, It will be one eternal day with Jesus (the Lamb) as the light.
Still love the songs though...
What a lot of people miss, too, is that there will be another great time of rebellion between the end of the millennium kingdom and the new heaven and earth. How many years will that period of time take?
Hmmm...
Satan will be loosed. People will rebel against God... again. Even after having been under the peace of His rule for 1,000 years. Why? Well, I have my ideas but will simply say, for now, people will always be people.
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Rock Defender [59]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 7:33 AM
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>Well, I have my ideas but will simply say, for now, people will always be people.
Why would god create rebellious people and then get mad, knowing that his creation did the thing he knew it would do?
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Legend [18215]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 10:34 AM
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I don't know... can you explain why children lie to parents who didn't teach them to lie? Even at an early age a child will do something they "know" is wrong and then when you ask why they did it, they lie. (I think you understand this truth without further explanation needed)
And parents get mad when their children continue to lie to them, even as they grow older. Why? Shouldn't the parent already know their children are liars (just like they are) and just let them be?
People will always be people.
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CU Guru [1427]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 11:34 AM
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So that makes even less sense.
Based on what you just said and god already knowing how this all shakes out. He already knows who’s gonna do what, who’s going where, and everything else. Doesn’t sound “choice”
He created a circumstance where the majority of us are going to burn for various reasons, and knows it and is totally fine with that… but he’s all loving and all hahaha! Ridiculous!
Furthermore no disobedient child gets tortured by said parent for lying or anything else. Most of us would call that parent a maniac (not a loving parent) and lock them in jail
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Rock Defender [59]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 11:37 AM
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It is indeed completely absurd.
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Legend [18215]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 11:53 AM
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Well, you both are full grown adults and can believe what you like. I don't hold any ill will toward you, or anyone else, who choses not to believe as I do... because it is your choice.
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Rock Defender [59]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 1:19 PM
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Again with this. You can’t choose something you aren’t convinced of.
If Jesus showed up, THEN i would agree there is a choice to make.
Until then, it’s an unsubstantiated claim
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CU Guru [1427]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 2:51 PM
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Right
If god is all knowing, then he knows that the vast majority of his beloved children need more than some ancient writings and he said she said. He could leave no doubt at any time, but does not. I think I know why he doesn’t, but that’s subject to change provided GOOD evidence
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CU Guru [1427]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 2:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib. ] |
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That’s fair enough.
I just think it’s weird how some try to rationalize the irrational with analogies that don’t really apply or make sense. If one has faith and willing to believe this just because they do, then that’s fine. But when you say look it’s clear as … in fact it’s clear as mud. Yes I borrowed that from some on here, that I don’t recall at the moment
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Rock Defender [59]
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Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib.
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May 30, 2024, 11:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for those who are pre-mill and pre-trib. ] |
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>I don't know... can you explain why children lie to parents who didn't teach them to lie?
You are conflating things. We didn't create our children in the way you are claiming god did. I didn't create my kid's nature.
If humans have a "bad nature" where did that come from? Where did the ability to lie in the first place come from?
>(I think you understand this truth without further explanation needed)
No, because you are doing a bait and switch.
>And parents get mad when their children continue to lie to them, even as they grow older. Why? Shouldn't the parent already know their children are liars (just like they are) and just let them be?
Correcting a child and brutally torturing them forever for not being perfect is a completely different thing.
I do not expect perfection, you are claiming god does or else. If the punishment was on part with the "crime" it would make sense, but eternal torture for even the slightest "sin". Yeah..
>People will always be people.
People didn't create themselves.
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Hall of Famer [23635]
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Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
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May 30, 2024, 3:22 PM
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I was hoping for a somewhat serious discussion. But, it seems obvious, that some people are more interested in taking every opportunity to belittle Christianity rather than allow believers to have a rational discussion.
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Rock Defender [59]
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Re: Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
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May 30, 2024, 3:45 PM
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This is a religion forum, not a believers forum.
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110%er [6683]
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Re: Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
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May 31, 2024, 3:51 PM
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It's not an anti religion forum.
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Orange Blooded [2056]
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Re: Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
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May 31, 2024, 4:52 PM
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Pro and anti religion views are welcome here
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110%er [6683]
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Re: Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
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May 31, 2024, 6:08 PM
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Agreed, but the o.p. was specifically addressed to believers.
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CU Guru [1427]
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110%er [6683]
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Re: Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
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May 31, 2024, 6:14 PM
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Disagreement is one thing. O.P. was specifically addressed to those who believed in a specific point of theology. It immediately got completely derailed.
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CU Guru [1427]
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Re: Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
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May 31, 2024, 11:02 PM
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I wasn’t aware of the imaginary rules you just made up.
For good reason
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110%er [6683]
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Re: Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
Jun 1, 2024, 6:28 PM
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It is normally a common courtesy on most boards to keep threads on topic and in line with the O.P.
Tigernet has devolved to the point that I really don't expect any courtesy anyway.
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CU Guru [1427]
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Re: Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
Jun 3, 2024, 11:30 PM
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Look at you telling what’s normal and courteous. Carry on with that. I’ll reply to any post I see fit and how I see fit
Perhaps ur taking a chat board a little too serious
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Rock Defender [59]
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Re: Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.
Jun 4, 2024, 6:40 AM
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This happens a lot in P&R. Lots of moderators.
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Oculus Spirit [94897]
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You will soon learn who to read and who to ignore.
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May 30, 2024, 6:23 PM
[ in reply to Thanks to those who tried to answer my question. ] |
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FYI:
First Thessalonians 4:13–18 is a very familiar text that teaches the truth of the rapture, the next
great event on God’s prophetic calendar. The apostle Paul had spent probably six to eight weeks
in Thessalonica on his second missionary journey and in that time had evidently taught these believers a great deal about prophecy, including the rapture of the church. Paul wrote: Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those
who have fallen asleep in him.
According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord
himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.
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Hall of Famer [23635]
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Hence, my question.
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Jun 5, 2024, 7:40 PM
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And, it wasn't meant to be a deep theological question. More of just an observation.
Those who are pre-mill/pre-trib believe that the rapture and the second coming are two different events, separated by 7 years.
But, we use the terms "When He returns" or "When He comes again" or something similar when speaking of both of those events.
The passage you mentioned is talking about the rapture (for those who are pre-trib). But, you used the phrase "coming of the Lord."
If you consider the rapture as "Jesus coming back" or "coming again" then, in effect, what we normally call the second coming is actually the third coming.
Once again, no big deal. Just more of an observation I have noticed throughout the years about the confusion when people talk about the end times.
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Oculus Spirit [94897]
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I agree with your view of this.
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May 30, 2024, 6:16 PM
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I know enough to debate it with others but I've only done so once and that was a one time mistake which I refuse to make again.
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Hall of Famer [24914]
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Re: I agree with your view of this.
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May 31, 2024, 10:21 AM
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Is like debating Calvinism.
Or, on tnet, whether hell is a lake of fire.
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Hall of Famer [23635]
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I wasn't clear.
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May 31, 2024, 11:36 AM
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I appreciate both of your responses.
But, I was just wondering if others notice what I notice. People who believe the rapture and the second coming are separate events turn around and talk about them as though they are the same.
Example: How many times have you heard people say, "I'm looking forward to the second coming." Or, I'm looking forward to Jesus' return." The song I posted said, "He's coming for me."
I'm not looking forward to His second coming at all. Because I won't be here. He won't be coming for me. I'll be with Him, either through death or the rapture, and I will be coming back with Him.
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Hall of Famer [24914]
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Re: I wasn't clear.
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May 31, 2024, 12:02 PM
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Yes, I'm with you, you asked a good question. i was responding only to 88's comment about his experience in an argument.
I do not know enough to be pre or post (I'm pan millennialist: it'll all pan out in the end), but what comes to mind is the idea (from Thess, maybe?) that "Jesus will come to take believers." (Paraphrase) That being the case, the terms rapture and second coming could be used interchangeably. Maybe. Unless that misses what you were saying,
You raise a good point about end times. When will it occur? For most of us, very quickly. If a prophet said, "Within 50 years", we'd think that was like tomorrow. Ahem.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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110%er [6683]
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Re: I wasn't clear.
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May 31, 2024, 3:53 PM
[ in reply to I wasn't clear. ] |
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Agreed.
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Oculus Spirit [94897]
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Hey Bret,
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Jun 1, 2024, 3:55 AM
[ in reply to I wasn't clear. ] |
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I believe 'the second coming,' is a loose term. In a manner of speaking the rapture is a second coming for those who are born again. And, as you say, death is a form of Christ second coming if one can see.
I'll be 72 come Monday. At my age the probability of seeing the rapture from this side is sorely diminished. One way or the other, it matters nothing to me!
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Replies: 35
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