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Orange Elite [5161]
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Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 13, 2024, 12:36 PM
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To use and example:
Can FSU consistently win by signing 15-20 portal players every year?
Can they build and sustain a winning culture with that approach?
I’m not sure if Clemson’s approach will work, but I believe Dabo is playing the long game and he believes that reloading in the portal is financially and culturally unsustainable.
I think he is partly right in that with limited resources, you might catch lightening in a bottle every few years with the “full portal” approach, but you cannot hope to sustain the elite level that the administration & fans will demand.
Now, I do think there is a middle ground where the portal used sparingly to fill gaps and bolster depth at key positions, and we probably have opportunity there.
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Game Changer [1638]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 13, 2024, 12:40 PM
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There needs to be a happy medium. It is not sustainable to be successful grabbing 15-20 guys per cycle. Yes, you will have years where it all clicks and can make a run at the title, but the very next season it can just as easily fall apart.
On the other side you cannot take Dabo's approach and take no one. Even if there is no one you think that can come to Clemson and start, you can still utilize the portal from a depth perspective.
Just my opinion, but Clemson needs to start taking a minimum of two to three guys per cycle.
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Paw Master [16632]
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I understand where you are coming from...but I believe most portal players are
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May 13, 2024, 1:18 PM
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looking to start and for some $$$. They don't want to sit.
Maybe Dabo won't tell a portal kid that he's guaranteed to start (I agree) and that is getting in the way of landing one or two. I have no insight...just a thought.
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Tiger Titan [49969]
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Its crazy, only take them if you need them Bad
May 14, 2024, 5:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal? ] |
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Otherwise you are growing into the number one destination for the best High school recruits who don’t want an portal guy to jump them the moment they arrive to a school, it raises their value in the NIL dollars race the fastest way possible at Clemson.
I personally think it’s genius loyalty created by the best college football coach ever!
We are not winning or sustaining the bidding wars but we can pay our best performers very well because we didn’t gamble in the NIL.
If a bunch of guys transfer or leave then Dabo would react with the money he’s saved to get the best through the NIL.
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CU Guru [1570]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 13, 2024, 12:41 PM
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Dabo is right to prioritize culture and continue building with recruiting, but I also think he is a bit hard-headed when it comes to changing with the times.
There is no honest reason we should have zero transfers at this point. The best teams in the country are doing it and succeeding. Army, Navy, Air Force, and us are the only ones with zero transfers. I agree with Dabo's premise, but I disagree with his approach. That's not to say we need 10+, but we lost 14 and have picked up zero. That's an undeniable problem.
You can't win by consistently fielding a team of unknown 18-19 year olds against proven 22 year olds. We're not the #1 team in the country and his number one job, along with the culture, is building the best team possible.
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110%er [4082]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 13, 2024, 1:14 PM
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Why?
Why does Dabo need two to three transfers?
Why do we need to build one year depth from the portal?
Why can’t you recruit and develop players that play when they are 19-20 years old?
There are only two types of players in the portal.
One is looking for huge money and the other is looking for more playing time.
You cannot do either at Clemson. Dabo uses NIL to retain players on the roster and nobody is transferring from one school to another to be a back-up.
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Starter [361]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 13, 2024, 2:43 PM
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There are only two types of players in the portal.
One is looking for huge money and the other is looking for more playing time.
This is not true. Yes, some kids do look for $$$ and some look for more playing time, but those are not the only reasons someone enters the portal. Some kids may want to get back closer to home, some just didn't fit with the team/coaches/staff/college. Maybe a coach left. Maybe family reasons. Or health reasons. Lot's of things go into these kids decisions. And also not every kid who goes into the portal is a "bad culture fit", just like not every kid who signs out of high school and stays his entire career at one place is a "good culture fit".
To answer the OP, I don't think you can sustain an elite level program by relying on the portal that heavily. Like others have said, adding a couple pieces here and there imo is the best way to use it.
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Tiger Titan [46593]
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CU Guru [1570]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
May 14, 2024, 3:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal? ] |
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What do you say about our basketball program that just made the elite 8? Joe Girard came to Clemson to play for a winning team with a legit shot at the tournament. Who's to say there aren't plenty of other good players on bad teams looking for the same thing?
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Orange Elite [5161]
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No doubt
May 14, 2024, 4:01 PM
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I just don’t think we are going to be a consistent elite 8 team year in and out playing the portal game
High bar
I think football and basketball are different too
Football is more of a developmental game compared to basketball
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Tiger Titan [49969]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
May 14, 2024, 5:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal? ] |
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Basketball needed to buy its way because we couldn’t recruit in the top 25 without it.
Brad needs to raise money to continue to get paid because his recruiting isn’t good and his track record isn’t good but he knows our fans are our best asset in that case because they will give to help Clemson!
Dabo is in a whole different situation being a great coach and recruiter with a deep young roster coming into the NIL.
We’ve been dominating in football for a while but not in basketball ever!
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Trainer [40]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 13, 2024, 1:27 PM
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I think you build a team thru the portal, but you build a program thru high school recruiting. Dabo is building a program.
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Tiger Titan [46593]
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Hows that working out for him the last three years?***
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May 13, 2024, 6:01 PM
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Trainer [40]
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Re: Hows that working out for him the last three years?***
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May 14, 2024, 9:26 PM
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Clemson has the highest football graduation rate in the country. I say it’s working out very well.
If you don’t understand that then you don’t understand the difference between building a program and building a team.
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CU Medallion [19046]
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Re: Hows that working out for him the last three years?***
May 14, 2024, 10:32 PM
[ in reply to Hows that working out for him the last three years?*** ] |
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30-10, and a 75% winning percentage, which at Clemson is considered underperforming. When averaging 10 wins a season and feeling let down is when you know you have a pretty good program overall, and one where many other programs would be very happy with those kind of results.
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Paw Warrior [4968]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 13, 2024, 2:02 PM
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Dabo has it almost right.....yes...JMHO.
Personally, I don't think the way FSU is doing it is sustainable, nor do I want us to build like that. Dabo has it right..be a developmental program.
However, the circumstances have changed and you can't continue to lose kids on the back end and replace them with low-ranked guys you offer late with the small chance that after three years of development they will defy odds and turn into the next Renfrow. 85 is already a low number, you gotta back-fill a SMALL bit here. See UGA and BAMA as prime example---1-3 kids. Our culture will keep most kids, but not all....not anymore, not in this era of NIL. Gotta adapt a bit like you did with Summer OV. Remember, he was staunchly against summer OVs for a while. His reasoning used to be correct...but then circumstances changed, and then he wisely changed course. Took a while, we incurred damages but at least we made the change. I would argue he needs to do it here....just ever so slightly.
Dabo has already changed more than most will admit, more than HE will admit. I think changes are coming here too based on my info. I also think Dabo says too much at times on the subject and gets caught in a corner with his words which makes change harder. Like BV always said--less is more at times...
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Orange Elite [5161]
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By soon, do you mean the next portal window?
May 13, 2024, 2:04 PM
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I’m guessing there aren’t too many guys left worth signing this round, right?
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Paw Warrior [4968]
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Re: By soon, do you mean the next portal window?
May 13, 2024, 2:08 PM
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^^^^^
Would be surprised if it were this time around; although I thought we'd jump in the pool this spring based on what I was hearing.
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Tiger Titan [46593]
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MVP [525]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
May 14, 2024, 11:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal? ] |
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Ima ask the same question I’ve asked a half dozen times regarding the TP issue (and no one has answered yet)What team was actually a better team because they used the TP? One could argue FSU I suppose but in the end most of their TP’s bolted when their BEST player TJ went down. And he wasn’t a TP player but a 5th year senior who had worked his butt off to “develop”.
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Starter [361]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 14, 2024, 2:51 PM
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Ima ask the same question I’ve asked a half dozen times regarding the TP issue (and no one has answered yet)What team was actually a better team because they used the TP?
First team that jumps out is Missouri. Last year they got about 8 or 9 guys from the portal, and several ended up starting and/or being significant contributors, including their 2nd best WR Wease, a couple of OL starters in the Johnson boys, and a few defensive starters/contributors in Williams, (another) Johnson, and Gaddy. They went from years of 5/6/7 wins to 11-2 with a win over Ohio St in the Cotton Bowl.
Another is Ole Miss. Their #1 and #4 WRs came from the portal, as did several contributors on defense. They went from 8-5 to 11-2 with a win over Penn St in the Peach Bowl.
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CU Guru [1570]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 14, 2024, 4:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal? ] |
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Michigan just won the national championship. On their roster they had ten 2023 transfers. The prior year they had the Rimington Award Winner, who was a transfer. They had 3 transfers in 2022.
Their 2023 transfers:
Cam Goode - DL - played in every game
Josh Wallace - CB - 10 starts, appeared in 15 games
James Turner - starting kicker
Josaiah Stewart - DE - All big 10 team selection (HM)
Ladarius Henderson - OL - All big 10 team selection and 2-time offensive player of the week
AJ Barner - TE - All big 10 team selection (HM)
Myles Hinton - OL - started 5 games, played in 14
Drake Nugent - OL (Center) - All big 10 selection
Ernest Hausmann - LB - played in every game
Jack Tuttle - backup QB
Michigan got better through the portal. I hope this answers the question.
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Legend [7010]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
May 14, 2024, 5:34 PM
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Of which they now have 3 remaining - at least 2 of those (perhaps more) they only got because the pac conference broke up, and of course, "the bag". and the backup qb is only returning because the NCAA granted him a SEVENTH year of eligibility.
You can only prove it is consistent if you can do this year after year. They bought a team for a year - which will help recruiting but only time will tell if it can be consistent. You have little consistency if the roster is rolling over every year.
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National Champion [7109]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 13, 2024, 2:13 PM
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No, just like you cannot build a consistent championship caliber program with 100% high school recruiting, unless you are able to retain your players. Unfortunately that is no longer possible for any program, even us.
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Team Captain [459]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
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May 13, 2024, 3:10 PM
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I think the simple answer is NO, you cannot "build a consistent program" through the portal.
You can augment via the portal and be consistent but you can't build a culture and a system if you are turning over a significant portion of your roster each year.
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Commissioner [1210]
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Either/or assumption is based on a false premise....
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May 13, 2024, 4:54 PM
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See: OSU, Georgia, Bama, etc. While having the most talented rosters in the nation, they use the TP in moderation but not to merely offset the portal exfil. They have improved their roster's via the TP with regularity-
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Varsity [206]
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Re: Either/or assumption is based on a false premise....
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May 13, 2024, 5:03 PM
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IMO the level of TP use should be directly correlated to the needs of the given program. If your Bama or UGA or OhioSt -- it's more fine tuning than overhaul. But if you inherited a dumpster fire (see FSU when Taggart rode off to the sunset), then you need to hit the TP hard.
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CU Medallion [19359]
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Agree with your hypothesis ... IMHO It's not an either-or proposition
May 14, 2024, 3:04 PM
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Top programs will recruit and maintain most of their players from the high school ranks. And these programs will supplement their high school recruits with exclusive highly targeted portal transfers.
FSU will continue to over-utilize the transfer portal until their high school recruiting stabilizes to a desired level. Norvell does not want to over-rely on the transfer portal. It's way too much work, and it's much easier to just recruit just high school players and fill scholarships with primarily much less talented walk-ons. And transfers have less school loyalty and are much more likely to forego bowls, as FSU confirmed last season.
So it's a mix. Norvell will adjust if/when his high school recruiting improves. And Dabo will adjust if/when W-L record forces his hand.
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CU Guru [1570]
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Re: Agree with your hypothesis ... IMHO It's not an either-or proposition
May 14, 2024, 4:10 PM
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I agree. We don't need to be FSU, but there's no reason we can't fill gaps with good players from the portal. The best teams have shown it works.
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Solid Orange [1382]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
May 14, 2024, 3:27 PM
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I think the key is developing players. If you consistently develop good players into great players there is no way the portal matters. What you'll usually get from the portal is players that think they are better than they are jumping into the portal because they will never get the opportunity to be the star they imagine themselves to be. That or it is a filler player that fills a back-up roll and they know it (like Hunter Johnson). This is true right now with the portal with more than half of portal players not ever getting another college offer and most of the portal players moving down not up.
I truly think Dabo's strategy is to build a blue chip developmental program. A player just looking for NIL money is never going to fit. Again the real key is player development. He has to really pour it on for this to work.
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CU Medallion [19702]
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No. Some years will be heavier than others.
May 14, 2024, 3:52 PM
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I don’t know of any team that can “build” from the portal. Seems to me that Colorado hasn’t been efforting with their recruiting HS so that may be the one semi-major or major program trying to build that way.
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Rival Killer [2664]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
May 14, 2024, 3:52 PM
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I think 15-20 a year would be way too many.
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Solid Orange [1382]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
May 14, 2024, 4:50 PM
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Define consistem. UConn's football program has been very consistent. Consistantly bad, but conistent none the less.
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Solid Orange [1382]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
May 14, 2024, 4:52 PM
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Sorry I cannot type or proof read apparently....
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Campus Hero [13148]
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Re: Can you build a consistent program through the portal?
May 14, 2024, 6:03 PM
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This guy makes some good points. The problem is not using the portal but the problem is not using the portal and not meeting the standard you set and losing to teams that are using the portal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TBbRjExm54
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Replies: 34
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