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Heisman Winner [119794]
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Dumb morning thought
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Apr 4, 2024, 7:35 AM
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With AI creeping into everyday life, is it safe to say people especially young people will rely on it more and more?
If that’s true won’t those people become less able to express themselves? If that’s true, won’t AI get dumber over time since it learns by observing people?
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All-In [45843]
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Re: Dumb morning thought
Apr 4, 2024, 7:51 AM
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Legend [17324]
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I always feel dumber after reading TigerNet boards ?!?***
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Apr 4, 2024, 8:02 AM
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All-In [27184]
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How much different will it be than old men watching Fox News then running
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Apr 4, 2024, 8:29 AM
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to message boards to regurgitate what they just saw?
Each generation has their own version of AI.
(THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL SHOT.)
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Heisman Winner [119794]
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First, Jimma, I dont watch Fox News
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Apr 4, 2024, 8:36 AM
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Second, this thought came to me watching a news blurb on wyff4 about Comicon Greenville and a roomful of nerds.
You one of those?
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All-In [27184]
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Re: First, Jimma, I dont watch Fox News
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Apr 4, 2024, 8:59 AM
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Heisman Winner [119794]
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Thats sorta like saying This is not Politics
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Apr 4, 2024, 9:13 AM
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But it really is 😅
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Lot o points [156046]
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All-In [27184]
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Jeanine Pirro.
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Apr 4, 2024, 9:28 AM
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It's why it looks like they're drunk.
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All-In [27184]
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Oculus Spirit [97799]
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I doubt it. AI has a place, but it's a far cry from the place that is being
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Apr 4, 2024, 8:39 AM
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hyped. It's the latest hyped up financial instrument/ponzi scheme. Look at bitcoin. It's still going, after years of hype, it's no different than it was originally. It has a purpose and a value, but it's never matched the hype. Tesla, same. AI, same. GameStop, same. Other crypto, same.
We literally invent things, based on the tiniest sliver of potential, blow that all out of proportion, so investors can get rich, cash out, and move to the next bubble.
AI has a place in science and research, and many great uses. BUT, it's not going to be the humanity altering thing we've been promised. It is not reliable, BUT it is useful in crunching numbers and data too numerous for humans, or even normal computers, to crunch. It may have a bigger impact in the pharmaceutical and aerospace industries, places where you have billions of data points and need to sort out the best solution for a specific problem using that data.
Just think back. How many things (internet or otherwise) have ever panned out to go BEYOND expectations? Hardly anything. EVERYTHING underperforms in the long run, to different levels. But hype sells, and buyers spend money, and sellers make bank. If you can keep generating hype, everyone ends up winning, but ultimately, it is what it is, and that is when the bubble deflates, and off to the next one.
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Oculus Spirit [81129]
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Somebody in here has been saying that same thing for about 3 years.
Apr 4, 2024, 10:04 AM
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If I could only remember who.
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All-In [31520]
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Re: Dumb morning thought
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Apr 4, 2024, 8:41 AM
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I remain very underwhelmed with AI as it currently exists
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All-In [42976]
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^^obvious bot^^***
Apr 4, 2024, 8:43 AM
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Lot o points [156046]
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Sophomore son in college says tons of kids using ChatGPT
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Apr 4, 2024, 8:45 AM
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To write their papers for them. Then they run them through AI detecting software like their professor would use, and change the sections it flags.
In the next decade we could be witnessing the most highly educated crop of mouth-breathers we’ve ever seen.
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All-In [42976]
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IDK if writing papers is really something that makes you smarter. It teaches
Apr 4, 2024, 8:50 AM
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you how to write papers, but that's a specific skill not many people actually use all that much.
Are we dumber because we can't quickly do 13 digit division by longhand? Or use a slide rule?
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Lot o points [156046]
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Its twofold to me.
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Apr 4, 2024, 8:58 AM
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A) if you actually go through the exercise properly and don’t just plagiarize, the research required to write the paper teaches you a great amount. I still remember far more than I should about flying squirrels based on a “paper” I wrote in third grade. The best way to learn something permanently is to teach it, and writing a paper on a topic is a form of teaching it.
B) writing effectively is a crucial communication skill, and as technology has started to kill it off, the “haves” are going to stand out even more from the “have nots” in the workplace.
I guess it’s threefold, so add one more.
C) at higher levels of learning, the thesis is the work that indicates mastery of a topic and originality of thought. If we are using crutches this much for undergraduate degrees, you’re going to see either less people getting advanced degrees due to inability to properly craft a theses/dissertation, or a lot of frauds with advanced degrees.
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All-In [27184]
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IMO being able to write a paper, which is training in critical thinking, is more
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Apr 4, 2024, 9:04 AM
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important than any rigorous math. Then again. I'm not an engineer.
But I stand by my point. Also, maybe this is old man Jimmy talking, but what are you paying for if you're trying to cheat the system to not learn or do the work?
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Hall of Famer [21978]
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forming a thesis and constructing arguments
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:24 AM
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in a paper is critical for the advancement of human thought.
forming a hypothesis and solving through various forms of analytics (I'd argue pretty close to the same pathway as writing a paper), is critical for the advancement of human civilization.
you need both.
I'm no lawyer, nor am I a writer, but I can write a research paper. Just like I can look at a few trends and apply the math/engineering I learned to develop a thesis and a supporting story line to justify / prove my thesis.
In this conversation, rigorous math != calculating change back at McDonald's.
I think by limiting kids' abilities to actually formulate a story line (thesis) and back it up early on through papers/writing, you ultimately hand cuff a lot of critical thinkers responsible for a pretty hefty amount of engineering wonders we take for granted today.
Hopefully schools start treating all electronics as something that's earned (caclulators, cell phones, computers). I know my HS did, and so did Tech (outside of CS classes). I used a calculator maybe half a dozen times from 9th grade to when I graduated college. And all of our papers had a handwritten component, albeit, in draft form, etc. until final publication.
Instead, and I know this as fact that my fears are coming true, schools are doubling down on technology leading to a much larger issue that will start rearing its head in a generation or two.
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All-In [27184]
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It took me until my senior year at Clemson to finally learn how to think.
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:28 AM
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And by "learning how to think," I mean primarily what you stated above. But, it all came down to one professor whose curriculum was based on this method of logic/reason, and it's made all the difference. The best way I can simplify it all is, "if there is a contradiction, check your premises." Framing information processing in this way automatically invites critical thought and examination, and damn if it would not solve 99% of misinformation out there.
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Hall of Famer [21978]
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dope
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:39 AM
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that was the freshman orientation or whatever at Tech. "learn how to learn. and fast."
also was a great tee up for post-grad interview questions..."what's your best quality" type crap.
and I did not have you quoting Atlas Shrugged (ever, really) this morning on my bingo card.
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All-In [27184]
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Well. The prof. did lead an Atlas Shrugged book reading group.***
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:40 AM
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All-In [27184]
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I'm more of a Fountainhead man myself.***
Apr 4, 2024, 10:41 AM
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Lot o points [156046]
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Without saying more than Jims would be happy with.
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:42 AM
[ in reply to dope ] |
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I’m just gonna say ironic POTD.
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All-In [49081]
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Almost like ClemsonPoker
Apr 4, 2024, 3:33 PM
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in reverse and more nuanced.
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110%er [7004]
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Do you have any thoughts on the recent trend towards "classical"
Apr 4, 2024, 10:50 AM
[ in reply to It took me until my senior year at Clemson to finally learn how to think. ] |
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elementary education? Schools focusing on Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric, etc. It appeals to me on one level, in that it seems to address a lot of the shortfalls in my own education but I'm not sure I'm radical enough to make that jump for my kids
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All-In [27184]
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Seems a little early for that.
Apr 4, 2024, 10:59 AM
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But I do like the Montessori model that teaches softer developmental skills.
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Lot o points [156046]
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I think Montessori helped get us where we are today
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Apr 4, 2024, 11:02 AM
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With the whims of the individual being the highest priority and societal norms being antiquated and oppressive.
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All-In [27184]
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You some type of commie, brother?***
Apr 4, 2024, 1:38 PM
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Lot o points [156046]
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Just call me Marx.
Apr 4, 2024, 1:39 PM
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Richard Marx.
Hold on to the night.
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110%er [7004]
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A few years ago the local schools were marketing the fact that every kid got an
Apr 4, 2024, 10:52 AM
[ in reply to forming a thesis and constructing arguments ] |
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iPad. IMO, that is a con, not a pro. I think we are past that, at least the marketing stage. I'd be fine if my kids never saw a screen in school other than a typing class.
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Heisman Winner [135687]
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I'm be's uhgree with you're post almost really alot.***
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Apr 4, 2024, 9:05 AM
[ in reply to Its twofold to me. ] |
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Heisman Winner [119794]
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Sorta my point
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Apr 4, 2024, 9:12 AM
[ in reply to Its twofold to me. ] |
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And if AI learns from us…..
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Lot o points [156046]
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Sorry, I sort of ignored that part of your observation
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Apr 4, 2024, 9:30 AM
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With my comment.
I’d say maybe. If AI ultimately ends up containing all the thoughts and discoveries of the greatest minds in the history of man, presumably it would try to continue down that path and not get derailed by the derp of a billion tik toks. AI (a well-programmed AI anyway) doesn’t get a dopamine rush from a “like” or distracted by emotional segues from logical arguments, so in the end the scary part is it should continue getting smarter as we get dumber.
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Heisman Winner [119794]
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How do you know that?
Apr 4, 2024, 10:01 AM
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Doesn’t the ultimate AI have a personality?
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All-In [27184]
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No.***
Apr 4, 2024, 10:04 AM
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Lot o points [156046]
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I could be wrong, but I think personality is nothing
Apr 4, 2024, 10:06 AM
[ in reply to How do you know that? ] |
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More than a programmed algorithm to guide the manner in which an AI interfaces with humans. I don’t think it adds or detracts from the machine’s deep learning capability, which is what you’re talking about.
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All-In [27184]
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Personality also implies subjectivity, which is not what you want from AI.
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:14 AM
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I think what Benga is thinking of is more AI-driven personal assistants or companions, which is an AI derivative but far from what would be "ultimate" AI, since its primary purpose would be emotional support of humans.
IMO, you would never hear from "ultimate AI" or even know of its existence. It would be self-piloting to drive decision-making of out-of-sight processes (infrastructure, research, marketing campaigns).
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Lot o points [156046]
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Also to circle back to your math question,
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Apr 4, 2024, 9:25 AM
[ in reply to IDK if writing papers is really something that makes you smarter. It teaches ] |
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I’d say yes. Is complete understanding/maatery of a concept necessary for being a functional human? Not at all, I do a lot of things in my day to day that I don’t fully understand how they work.
Are we dumber for it? Arguably yes. Go to Burger King and ring up an order that costs $12.05 and hand the cashier a $20. After they punch it in and the cash drawer opens, say “wait, I have a nickel”. For about half of them, their heads will explode at that moment. That’s where complete reliance on machines and the learning shortcuts they provide get us.
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All-In [42976]
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I mean, I don't go to Burger King, and if I did in any decade I am not
Apr 4, 2024, 9:36 AM
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expecting the cashier to be a math whiz.
I can't make change like I used to either, cause I am out of practice.
Same for navigating with a map.
Same for complex math by hand.
We do these things differently now.
Of course we need to learn the fundamentals, absolutely agree there. But I don't fully buy the 'we are all dumber now' thing just because we don't do them the same way now as when we were kids. I mean have you seen a retiree try to use a new iPad?
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Lot o points [156046]
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I think the issue is youre talking about intelligence
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:13 AM
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And I’m talking about knowledge.
The more working knowledge you possess, the more value I’d say you have to society in general. That knowledge could be how to calculate the displacement of a nuclear submarine using only pencil and paper, how to do carpentry, or yes, how to write a paper unaided.
The more you completely farm out to machines, the less knowledge you have and the more useless you become in the absence of computers and machinery.
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All-In [27184]
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I consider intellectual curiosity to be the make or break trait for me in how I
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:16 AM
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judge co-workers. You don't even have to be particularly smart to have it. But, your level of intellectual curiosity will determine how much you're willing to step-up to learn and contribute, especially without being asked.
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Lot o points [156046]
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And its dying.
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:19 AM
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With few exceptions my kids and their friends could give a flying shidd about how just about anything actually works. We are going to have a generation of people who have to call a service provider to fix or service just about anything for them, all while the number of people able and willing to perform those repairs/services steadily shrinks.
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Oculus Spirit [81129]
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I've got some friends like that.
Apr 4, 2024, 10:31 AM
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Most are in their mid 30's -early 40's. They have no curiosity of how anything works, or how to fix it if something breaks. And these folks are successful, smart people.
I'm going to help a buddy today work on his boat trailer lights. He is absolutely clueless with that, and his assumption on what to do when they break starts and ends at "I'm not sure".
It's a mindset, not an intelligence issue.
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All-In [27184]
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The only silver lining, and it's not exactly a great one, is that as I am about
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:31 AM
[ in reply to And its dying. ] |
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to roll into my 40s, I have absolutely no fear in being replaced or outpaced by the generation coming up behind me. I do fear AI replacing much of what I do, but at least in the marketing world, the achilles heel of AI is both customers who don't know how to use it or don't want to take the time to use it, and marketers want to "understand the math" behind AI decisions, and you're not going to get that. So for however long it lasts, a human touch is almost instinctually desired.
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CU Medallion [58471]
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I see it with my kids when it comes to maps, directions, and geography in
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:34 AM
[ in reply to Also to circle back to your math question, ] |
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general. Of course, nobody uses maps anymore, including me. My kids have never seen a map as far as I know, but they can drive anywhere in America with Waze. As a consequence of never looking at a map, they have no idea where anything is in relation to anything else. For instance, baby daughter lives in Charlotte, and she will say "I might come up to Greenville this weekend". When I say "You mean DOWN to Greenville!" I get the "whatever Dad" response. She used to fly "down to New York" to see her boyfriend. Oldest daughter is the same way.
Does that matter? Will it matter? Seems to me it does, but I don't have time to talk about it anymore; I have to go yell at some punks to get off of my lawn.
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Lot o points [156046]
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In that excellent post, I saw a cry for help.
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:37 AM
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Prayers sent for your daughter dating a Yankee.
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CU Medallion [58471]
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Thanks, that was few years ago. She came to her senses.***
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Apr 4, 2024, 1:32 PM
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Lot o points [156046]
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Behold the power of prayer!!!***
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Apr 4, 2024, 1:33 PM
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CU Medallion [58471]
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Much grass!***
Apr 4, 2024, 1:37 PM
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All-In [27184]
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CU Medallion [58471]
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I agree - I haven't used a paper map in years. I love my Waze.
Apr 4, 2024, 1:34 PM
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But I know up from down. There are always trade-offs.
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Lot o points [156046]
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My father in law was deeply disturbed that AAA recently
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Apr 4, 2024, 3:10 PM
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Stopped giving out free TripTiks to members.
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Oculus Spirit [97799]
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I don't see how you can't tell AI. I'm no English professor, but
Apr 4, 2024, 8:55 AM
[ in reply to Sophomore son in college says tons of kids using ChatGPT ] |
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when I read something that's Ai generated, it becomes pretty clear after just a few paragraphs (tops). What would have to be changed to meet my review of a paper would be so much it would just be easier to type it yourself.
I have also noticed AI is excellent at spitting out informative/information text, but it fails miserably when trying to generate a coherent, well-structured argument, one way or another.
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Lot o points [156046]
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Im not disagreeing with you.
Apr 4, 2024, 8:58 AM
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I’m just saying it’s happening.
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Heisman Winner [136188]
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Yeah, Ive changed my assigned paper so that 50% of the grade is
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Apr 4, 2024, 9:05 AM
[ in reply to I don't see how you can't tell AI. I'm no English professor, but ] |
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Why did you pick the topic, what did you learn from researching this topic, will your behavior change after researching this, why or why not and did how you think about this topic change or were your existing conceptions confirmed.
As far as I know, AI ain’t there yet, at least to the point that I can’t tell that it’s not related to who that person is.
I wonder if AI has put the online paper mills out of business. I found those (at least the good ones, were much harder to detect.
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Hall of Famer [21978]
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110%er [7004]
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Is there a reason why profs don't do this?
Apr 4, 2024, 10:21 AM
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I assume it would lead to a lot of ADA accommodation requests for typed papers.
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Lot o points [156046]
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Because theyd just copy it from an AI generated paper
Apr 4, 2024, 10:22 AM
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And it’s harder to read to grade.
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Hall of Famer [21978]
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a lot of your AP type exams
Apr 4, 2024, 10:25 AM
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and finals in college (at least where I went) had hand written components.
You could layer it, maybe, having drafts be handwritten, or pieces being handwritten, as students craft the story.
idk. if we can do it with math, we can do it with writing.
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Oculus Spirit [81129]
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I was a legacy.
Apr 4, 2024, 10:27 AM
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I was automatically Clemson brotherhood material.
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Lot o points [163012]
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I had a Advanced Comp professor that made us write papers in class
Apr 4, 2024, 7:34 PM
[ in reply to Sophomore son in college says tons of kids using ChatGPT ] |
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I assumed is was to be sure no one else wrote your paper.
We had to use black ink and looseleaf paper. If we used any other color ink or paper torn out of a notebook = F.
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CU Medallion [58471]
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One can only hope.***
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Apr 4, 2024, 8:47 AM
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110%er [7004]
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Tech definitely makes me dumber/less able.
Apr 4, 2024, 10:08 AM
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I can't count how many times I've Googled something instead of thought on it to remember an answer.
I think AI would be like that but even worse. And I do think your point about AI getting worse (or more "inbred") overtime makes sense.
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Oculus Spirit [81129]
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Conversions
1
Apr 4, 2024, 10:11 AM
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like from MPH to ft/sec, or Mb/sec to Kb/ sec or something like that.
Couldn't do one now to save my life. I used to be able to rattle those off like it was second nature.
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110%er [7004]
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Great example.***
Apr 4, 2024, 10:16 AM
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Heisman Winner [119794]
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Nice thread from a dumb, not yet fully awake thought!
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:26 AM
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All-In [27184]
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This turned into a great thread, Benga.***
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Apr 4, 2024, 10:39 AM
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