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Replies: 68
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
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Mar 24, 2025, 8:48 PM
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We lost 1 very good player we wanted to keep. That sucks, but the rest is good news.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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You don't remember when Rick Barnes lost in the
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Mar 24, 2025, 8:54 PM
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first round his last year after being ranked #2 in the country losing to Western Michigan? Or when OP lost in the first round 3 straight years? And people wanted them run out of town on a rail.
Yea, me either
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Hall of Famer [8395]
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Re: You don't remember when Rick Barnes lost in the
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:02 PM
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Disagree on OP - there were people who wanted him gone. Neither had been here for 15 years. But hey, you got your man with an empty trophy case.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:07 PM
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including the one Hall of Famer ever here.
I've been on the fence many times over the years with Brad, but we aren't firing him after winning 76 games the last 3 years, trophies or no trophies
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Hall of Famer [8395]
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Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:17 PM
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And therin is the problem with most Clemson basketball fans. Average is good enough. He won some games. Let’s keep him forever. Nevermind he cant win tournaments.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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So we should just continually shoot for that one magic bullet
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:21 PM
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coach who remarkably stays at a school where basketball will always be second fiddle?
That sounds like a recipe for sustained success
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Hall of Famer [8395]
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Re: So we should just continually shoot for that one magic bullet
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:28 PM
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I’d love to be wrong, but one thing is for sure - Brownell isn’t going to get it done.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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He got closer to a Final 4 than all but one other coach
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:33 PM
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that's the apex of Clemson basketball.
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CU Medallion [18149]
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: Some people would rather we be on our third coach in the last 15 years***
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Mar 25, 2025, 8:10 AM
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Nope. That would be a straw man argument since you’ve been confused on the topic in the past.
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Hall of Famer [8323]
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Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case ] |
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I was also Fire Brad mentality a couple of years ago. But the Elite 8 run last year and fantastic regular season this year have to mean something.
I hate mediocrity. I’ve beat that dead horse here many times.
But if we are now an NCAA-regular that makes a deep run every few years, that’s legit. Not many schools do that.
However, next season will be very telling. We have almost 100% roster turnover coming. Can Brad put another team together?
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Hall of Famer [8395]
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Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:31 PM
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He’s had two deep runs in 15 years (I’ll give him the sweet 16 as “deep”). What is the true measure of Brownell - 2 vs the other 13?
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Hall of Famer [8323]
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Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:41 PM
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We don’t know yet. But the past 2 seasons have been successful and if that trend holds, we are in good shape. There is no way you get rid of him now. 2-4 years ago, yes. But since we stuck with him through those years, you don’t reverse course when the results are improving drastically.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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Which is one more than any other coach we've had
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case ] |
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Foster-Elite 8 1980. Only tourney appearance in 8 years
Ellis-Sweet 16 1990. One of 3 tourney appearances in 10 years.
Barnes-Sweet 16 1997 One of 3 tourney appearances in 4 years. Still the most gifted coach we've ever had, but bolted for a better job.
Brad-two runs. 2 in the last 8 years. 4 tourney appearances last 8 years, 3 of the last 5 years.
Best run is school history. Not the sustained success anyone wants, but still.....we're not exactly a destination basketball school
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Hall of Famer [8395]
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Re: Which is one more than any other coach we've had
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Mar 24, 2025, 10:03 PM
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What a great argument. This is the best we can hope for so we should just be happy with it. Coot attitude.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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Who said it's the best we can hope for?
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Mar 24, 2025, 10:10 PM
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It's the best run we've ever had in well over 100 years of basketball, so why trash the coach who reached this point?
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Hall of Famer [8395]
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Re: Who said it's the best we can hope for?
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Mar 24, 2025, 10:16 PM
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You continue to allude to Clemsons inability to be successful in Basketball. This being one of our best runs (that ended with a first game exit from the tournament) is an indictment on Clemson basketball history, not an argument for keeping Brownell. Like I said - you got your man. We already know his ceiling. If y’all are happy with it good for you. Don’t complain about the rest of us who are not.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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History means something
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Mar 24, 2025, 10:31 PM
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Ours sucks. His ceiling to this point is tied with one other coach in history. Whose to say he doesn't find a way to eventually up it?
I hear you complaining alot, but you have zero solutions other than fire the guy who is tied for the apex of Clemson basketball, which was attained just last year.
What Hall of Fame coach ya bringing in to get us over the top?
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CU Medallion [18149]
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We had just come off three straight NCAAs and a guy told us no, he would
Mar 25, 2025, 1:02 AM
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rather stay in Starkeville...I'm sure we'll do better this time after firing the guy with 3 straight 20+ win seasons
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: We had just come off three straight NCAAs and a guy told us no, he would
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Mar 25, 2025, 8:14 AM
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At least you admit you are operating from a fear based perspective. Terrible way to go through life but it begins to explain things. Is there any difference in our athletic department in 2025 than in 2010. Where do we / did we rank in total revenue and net worth? I wonder if these might play a factor.
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: History means something
Mar 25, 2025, 8:11 AM
[ in reply to History means something ] |
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It means very little when the fundamentals surrounding the athletic department and university are completely different.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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Viz, give some credit where credit is due
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Mar 25, 2025, 8:28 AM
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Who's the guy who was a major factor in helping put those fundamentals in place? We had half a practice court and LJ was a dump when he arrived. Our facilities have improved greatly and more improvements are on the way. Brad was essential to all that happening.
The program has been far more consistent the last 8 years than the first 7. Since we had to play the year in Greenville. We've been to a Sweet 16 and an Elite 8, along with 2 other tourney appearances. We've seen homegrown guys like Grantham, Devoe, Tyson, Hall, Chase and Ian grow into really good players. Multiple impact transfers. Recruiting is better.
We all want a Final 4. Every program does. We all want an ACC championship, as diminished as that is, simply because we've never won one.
This upcoming year has more question marks than any I can remember right now. But the portal, and the fact we now have rev sharing and we have spent NIL on hoops well, doesn't mean next year is a forgone disaster. Unlike previous years, we won't be using much NIL to retain guys, we'll have it to spend in the portal. Let's at least see who we bring in
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: Viz, give some credit where credit is due
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Mar 25, 2025, 9:15 AM
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I don’t disagree with all your points but I also don’t think Brownell has been managed appropriately. While improvements might need to have been made, I don’t think Brad has done much with them. Controlled for the quality of the ACC, his record simply isn’t that impressive. I know you’ve been around long to understand how much easier it isn’t simply not going on the road against every tobacco road school every year. Brad is wildly overpaid compared to his peers relative to accomplishments and he is the only ACC coach in history to be tenured this long w/o both a regular season and tournament championship. For any complaints about administrative support, Dabo accounts for only 20% of the football budget. The football program generates profit significantly higher than Dabo’s salary. Basketball pays Brad 30% of its budget while incurring a loss. Keeping a coach isn’t just a matter of choosing to hire or fire. There are real opportunity costs on either side of the ledger. Brad has reached the point that his cost relative to performance does not justify further investment. If we’re a football first, basketball, second school then quit robbing football profits for a million a year to pay for Brad’s program. If we won’t to be successful in both it will take a bigger investment than what we making now. But past success at Clemson and success at other “football schools” shows this can pay huge dividends. Clemson is now in the tier of schools that can leverage their brand and wealth for that kind of success. That wasn’t true when we hired any other basketball coach.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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Some fair points, but what exactly is our leverage in basketball?
Mar 25, 2025, 9:34 AM
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Every ACC school, as poor as the league has been lately, aside from BC, VT, and the newbies, has far more tradition and name recognition in hoops than us. You can make a case Stanford does as well.
Brad played a huge role in the upgrades.
The ACC, other than Duke, is a complete unknown for next year. New coaches. Perennial powers like UVa and Cuse in flux. Holes coach on the hot seat. Whoever wins the portal will finish high, as in top 5. Will be plenty of competition for players. Teams who haven't spent like State will be spending. You can make a very strong argument that for teams not named Duke, the portal is now more important than HS recruiting.
We know it can be boom or bust. What we don't know yet is where we'll land.
Why can't we just wait and see how things play out?
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: Some fair points, but what exactly is our leverage in basketball?
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Mar 25, 2025, 10:10 AM
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Because we have 15 years of data telling us exactly how it plays out. The last 5 years have been the equivalent of Tommy losing the division to BC and Wake Forest. Our veteran coach has his team, his way. Can’t win when control of first in the conference is on the line. Can’t win more than one in the ACC tourney. Based on the scenario you describe one of two things happen. The league remains unstable and Brad lingers in the upper third or the league stabilizes and we quickly find ourselves in the middle third which will no equate to NCAA bids. If counting regular season wins does it for you then we’re just at an impasse.
I thought the baseball game Sunday really defined my aggravation with Brownell. At no point did I presume we would lose that game. Down 6-0 I felt sure they guys would find a way. As soon as we got the lead off man on in the 9th I knew it was over. I believe in Clemson baseball because we have a coach that can be believed in. I did not feel that way when Lee was our coach. I believe in football with Dabo in a way I couldn’t with Bowden. I do not believe that Brownell will get it done which diminishes the enjoyment of every game.
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Orange Blooded [2378]
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Re: Some fair points, but what exactly is our leverage in basketball?
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Mar 25, 2025, 2:52 PM
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Totally agree about diminishing the enjoyment of every game, particularly tournament games. You are always waiting for the inevitable next shoe to drop, the next gut punch, the next "here we go again."
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CU Medallion [18149]
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: So you're also an expert AD too? Who knew?***
Mar 26, 2025, 5:29 PM
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What, exactly, do you think the requirements for being an AD are? Do you think wunderkid has super powers? He has an undergrad degree and an MBA. His entire career has been spent at MTSU and Clemson (you’d cry about if Dabo had promoted him). It’s not rocket science.
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Hall of Famer [8395]
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Re: History means something
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Mar 25, 2025, 9:46 AM
[ in reply to History means something ] |
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Agree, our history sucks. This is our “apex” and the best we can ever do? So we are supposed to live in fear of this and not try to change it?
I respect you have your own opinion. I’m not the AD. I don’t hire and fire people. All I know is Brownell isn’t the man we need to get us where we want to go (winning championships); assuming that’s actually what Brownell supporters want. If he’s the best we can get then yes you are right, we are at the ceiling of Clemson basketball. I don’t believe that though.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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Who has said it's the best we can do?
Mar 25, 2025, 11:32 AM
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But why trash the coach who has gotten us closer than all but one coach, and this just last year?
If we load up in the portal, and say Thomas and Thompson are recruiting hits, make the tourney again, what then?
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CU Medallion [20841]
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Counting on not one but two recruiting hits to help put a season over the top
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Mar 25, 2025, 1:17 PM
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seems like a stretch as Brad has never shown the ability to deliver that. Love the optimism, though.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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One would be a redshirt
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Mar 25, 2025, 5:50 PM
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I don't believe either will be handed a starting position, as we'll be hitting the portal heavily. But off the bench as contributors, why not? Both top 100 recruits
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CU Medallion [18149]
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Walk-On [142]
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Walk-On [142]
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Orange Blooded [2378]
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Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case***
Mar 25, 2025, 2:50 PM
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Yes, but none of them were for 15 going on 16 seasons. It's pretty obvious Brownell will never win the ACCT. He can't even win 2 games in the same tournament.
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Paw Warrior [4827]
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Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case
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Mar 25, 2025, 11:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case ] |
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Honestly, making the NCAA around half the time and competing for it almost every year is all it should take to keep a coach at Clemson.
I'm also curious to see what happens next year, but even if it's not a great year it doesn't mean we should fire him.
Concern is that with rebuilding the roster every year that it can go bad as quickly as it got good.
I like the idea of having a core of players we keep for four years and then bringing in a few transfers and that's the concern with Del Jones leaving because I though he was part of our core.
I'm assuming him leaving was his choice and not Brownell running him off.
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Tiger Titan [50648]
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Tiger Titan [50648]
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Yes, that was my opinion in 2019.
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Mar 25, 2025, 11:39 AM
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Since then, we have gone on a historic run, setting program records.
Brownell, along with his assistants as well as our AD, deserve a ton of credit for staying the course and making necessary changes that have helped our program better than it has ever been.
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: Yes, that was my opinion in 2019.
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Mar 25, 2025, 12:55 PM
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No, that was your opinion in 2015. Yet you have, time and again, maligned other users who comment negatively about the same time. We’re k assured that we’re just crappy fans and ignorant to all the challenges that went on in that period. But there you are, contradicting years worth of other commentary.
He’s done just well enough that he shouldn’t be fired at this point but he has also not done anything so special that he should be offered a contract that will allow him to have a major regression. Because he will. And fan sentiment is already such that we’ll probably just have to eat an absurd buyout rather than let a guy who has been given every opportunity see himself out. If he keeps making the tourney all of this will be moot. But by all appearances we’re being braced for a major rebuilding era.
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Rival Killer [2767]
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Paw Master [16958]
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Re: Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case
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Mar 25, 2025, 9:23 AM
[ in reply to Every coach we've had left an empty trophy case ] |
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Ellis won a trophy. Regular season ACC Champs. Just saying. I highly respect you and she’s tears when your father passed. He was the voice of my generation.
Brad has had about ten years too long. His career record over 32 years is three mid major championships. Two teams ranked in final top 25. Career high .600’s win percentage. Abysmal NCAA tourney loss to win ratio. How many McDonalds All Americans? One two and one three game win streak in March in 32 years. He isn’t the guy to build a consistent elite 8 or one final four team.
Do we want to stay mediocre in basketball? If so, stay the course. If we want to be elite and hang some banner we’re going to have to bring in elite coaching. Brads not elite. He’s average.
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TigerNet Icon [152457]
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66.6% of the 20% of the team that left will be missed 0%?***
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:10 PM
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Hall of Famer [8323]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 24, 2025, 9:25 PM
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We lost two 4-star young players who were both expected to be major contributors. We don’t get a lot of 4-stars.
We also lost a projected returning starter in Wiggins. He had a disappointing second half of the season, but he was going to be an important piece of the puzzle.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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Asa Thomas was a 4 star? Consensus mid 3 star
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:39 PM
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from what I've seen. Wiggins has no position. He doesn't rebound enough to play 4 and isn't quick enough to play 3.
Jones was a sure fire starter. Just a symptom of where college sports are now where agents can represent players and feel out offers. He'll land at a big time school. The other 2?
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Hall of Famer [8323]
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Re: Asa Thomas was a 4 star? Consensus mid 3 star
Mar 24, 2025, 9:58 PM
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I didn’t look into Thomas much but the Tnet article said he was rated as a four star.
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: Asa Thomas was a 4 star? Consensus mid 3 star
Mar 24, 2025, 10:04 PM
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Yeah, but generally he was considered an average 3 star and not even top 50 at his position. He wasnt a top 200 player.
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out. ] |
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Asa.Thomas wasnt that highly regarded and that's not a loss. We lost 1 solid player. That is all. We have a highly ranked frosh coming in and a solid RS frosh guard as well. That's without the portal. Anyway, all we lose that matters is Del Jones. That's a big loss. Asa Thomas and a Wiggins did the team a favor.
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Paw Warrior [4827]
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CU Medallion [20841]
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Sorry but I'm a bigger fan of Del Jones and what he has in store
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:48 PM
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for him next than his former coach.
A host of rent-a-players next season just isn't the same. They might be fun, and I'll sure pull for all of them all the time, but Del Jones man, hard to take that one. Thought he and Dillon could really ball together next year with the extra seasoning ahead.
Bummed Tiger
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: Sorry but I'm a bigger fan of Del Jones and what he has in store
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:52 PM
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Del Jones is the big loss. Other than him we were hooked up by the other two leaving. Yeah, losing Del sucks though.
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Hall of Famer [8323]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 24, 2025, 10:00 PM
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We lost 1 very good player we wanted to keep. That sucks, but the rest is good news.
Can’t say it’s good news. Even if they were to provide depth, we needed them. We’re losing four of our five starters unless Zackery gets an exception.
Otherwise, of the guys that contributed this year, we’re only returning one player total.
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 24, 2025, 10:02 PM
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It's not good news, its great news losing those 2 We are better off using those scholarships in the portal. Both sucked. Losing Del Jones is all that hurts.
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Hall of Famer [8323]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 24, 2025, 10:07 PM
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We were already going to have to use the portal though. Now we have to use it even more. How many solid players do you think we get at one time out of the portal?
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 24, 2025, 10:09 PM
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We were planning on the portal and now we can take more quality players to replace the two that we definitely didn't want. Like I said, we lost Del and that sucks. That is all.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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Who knows in this day and age?
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Mar 24, 2025, 10:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out. ] |
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Plenty of good ones in it and many more to come. One thing you can say about Brad is he knows how to use the portal. He'll need his best year ever this year. But we weren't going into next season not knowing that Ian and Victor would need to be replaced in the portal. Everyone pretty much had Del stepping in for Zachary, but Chase's points were going to need to be replaced in the portal, or close to them.
We'll need some guys to emerge. Dillon took a nice step forward this year, he needs to take a big one next year. He's the leader now. Reeves and Dallas Thomas need to impact games with their athleticism. At least one of the incoming freshmen needs to play valuable minutes, like Jones last year. Heidbrieder, if he stays, needs to hit shots. Ace Buckner will need to play, hopefully the genes were passed along.
Next year has a ton of question marks. It always was going to going into next season. Let's see what type of answers we can find before we draw and conclusions
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: Who knows in this day and age?
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Mar 24, 2025, 10:35 PM
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I have no faith in Reeves being a quality starter next season and hope he becomes a quality backup. That would be great.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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I think we'll target a portal C
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Mar 24, 2025, 10:41 PM
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Reeves is still developmental, but he's far more athletic than any big we've had since Elijah Thomas. He needs to rebound and play D, hit gimme's. 15-20 minutes a game. Athletic, 7'1 guys are not that common.
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: I think we'll target a portal C
Mar 25, 2025, 12:00 AM
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No doubt. Thats why he is even around. They are hard to find. That's why Duke gave him a chance.
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Ring of Honor [22290]
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He's only a redshirt sophomore as well
Mar 25, 2025, 7:48 AM
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If he improves every year, he has a chance to become something. I can see us picking up a center to split minutes with him.
We're playing Moneyball. Trying to replace Lahkin and Reeves production from last year hopefully with an improved Reeves and another guy next year.
He needs to stay healthy and do alot of skill work
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: He's only a redshirt sophomore as well
Mar 25, 2025, 11:25 AM
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I think he can be solid one day. I just meant next season I am not banking on him. I hope we have a better starter for this next season and that he improves and is a solid backup.
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Athletic Dir [1199]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
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Mar 24, 2025, 10:55 PM
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We losing 10 players man that’s why
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 24, 2025, 10:57 PM
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By my count we’re losing 11 of 15 if JZ is gone. Returning only our 6th and 8th most productive players. But this is totes normal portal stuff.
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
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Mar 24, 2025, 11:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out. ] |
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And? We have 5 new players coming in that are highly rated true frosh and redshirt frosh. We have the portal as well. We knew we were losing a lot already with how old our team was.
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All-Pro [724]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 26, 2025, 5:31 PM
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Do we really think the young guys will get minutes? This staff has never done that in the past.
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All-Pro [724]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 26, 2025, 5:30 PM
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No freaking out about the players who entered the portal, really. Just the realization about what the roster looks like for next year with the players returning. It's not good.
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Clemson Icon [24516]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 26, 2025, 5:36 PM
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It might be great though and more exciting with the very solid true freshman class and redshirt freshman, Dillon Hunter, maybe Zachary, and 5 from the portal. It might be great. I don't think there is anything to be done about.
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All-Pro [724]
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Re: Other than Del Jones, I dont get why people are freaking out.
Mar 28, 2025, 5:10 PM
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Do we really think the freshmen will get significant minutes?
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